Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[stillshimpy]

If Sam hasn't told Jon about Bran yet, WTH????  I guess I just think Sam is too smart to skip over important info like that.  I think it just happened offscreen.

Oh, I can think of a reason Sam would keep that under his hat for as long as he could.  If he tells Jon Snow, "hey, I saw Bran, headed North of the Wall.  Don't worry, I'm sure he'll be fine.  By himself, with only two dodgy strangers for company and that giant fellow of few, actually only one, word.  How's that arrow wound healing?" 

So I'm assuming Sam actually didn't tell him so that he didn't have to deal with Jon's promptly deserting while bleeding, or in the midst of his trial by Jackass featuring Thorne.  

I don't know, Pallas, I just don't agree.  She described Robert as being handsome or magnificent or something and how he was the hero of the rebellion, and whereas Gendry, who apparently looks enough like Robert that Ned was able to figure out who he was, while handsome isn't a GQ model.  I mean, he's a very handsome guy, but we did meet Robert.  That man wasn't beautiful at any point.  

Plus a true Narcissist wouldn't live for her children in the way Cersie has done  I'll give you emotionally warped, probably a goodly dose of superficial ad self-involved, but I remember when Joffrey was scarred by the Butcher's boy , she was decidedly not freaked out by that.  She told him that he would tell everyone it was some glorious battle wound and that the truth was whatever he wanted it to be, because he was going to be King.  

ETA: Thank you for your help, mad typist! 

Edited April 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[hobbers]

So we've finally seen some Dorne representation. And he's batsh*t (pigsh*t?) crazy! Knowing the way this show works he'll probably pick a fight not with Tywin or Joffrey but with Jaime, who has just boarded the redemption train, as people are calling it. Maybe Jaime will lose his other hand, we've already seen Martell is fond of aiming for the wrist.

Re: Janos and Thorne. The only way that council could have been more random is if Benjen Stark himself was sitting there, with no mention that he'd ever been gone. Also, John for Lord Commander: a terrible idea. He has shown now on many occasion a failure to speak according to his audience, a skill you would think a leader should possess. Here he called wildlings freefolk, how did he think Thorne would react to that? I also remember him choosing ill words in front of Craster and Mance. So maybe John for Lord Commander only if Sam is his spin doctor.

Finally, Jaime probably could have just wrote lavishly in that book about himself as commander but (d'oh!) he's lost his writing hand as well as his swordhand.

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: Trial by Jackass is brilliant.

Shae (Last 3 Episodes): I am not GETTING what I WANT so now I START YELLING LOUDER!!!!

Shae knows Tyrion and Sansa are a political marriage, she knows Sansa doesn't love Tyrion, she knows their marriage hasn't been consumated, yet she continues to act like a petulant child and endanger the (half) man she loves and herself. Wow. Never one of my fav characters, but one more outburst and she is going on my List. Like Arya's, but less ::stabbey-stabbey::

[Pallas]

She described Robert as being handsome or magnificent or something and how he was the hero of the rebellion,

 

I'm reminded a little of Diana Spencer. It seems Cersei truly was in love with Robert, or at least very smitten with him: my feeling is that loving and marrying Robert was an opportunity for Cersei to overcome her neuroses. But Robert, quite a bit like the Prince of Wales, threw Cersei back on her worst qualities with his rejection of her in favor of her predecessor. She regressed, to cunning, spite and need. 

But who cares! -- because Janjan and shimpy, your are probably dead on to why Cersei has been consulting the defrocked Maester, and why Jaime is too late:

Maybe she is having the maester perform one of his ambitious experiments that would deny Loras his conjugal rights -- hey! He's probably chipping in for the cost! --- janjan

 

So she's either ill (cancer of the soul, perhaps?) or she's having the Maester make her ill or induce menopause to get out of having to marry Loras. -- stillshimpy

Do you think Cersei's trying to poison her womb, and it will kill her?  

[Shadowlass]

Does Arya have any idea what a BAD IDEA it is for her to go to The Eyrie? I didn't think so. There is no way for her to know that her Aunt is cuckoo and Littlefinger is (or soon will be) running the asylum.

Criminy. Your mention of Littlefinger and Aunt Crazypants awaiting Arya at the Eyrie gave me the horrible thought that Littlefinger might murder Lysa and her son (okay, that's fine with me) and try to for force Arya to marry him in an effort to consolidate more holdings. Dear lord, why would you make me think that?!

 

Okay, so one of the things that has semi-fascinated me is that apparently there is no portraiture in the Seven Kingdoms and aside from that one statue of Baelor we saw back when Ned lost his head, I haven't noticed much statuary of people.  So Joffrey's statue stood out a damned mile.  It really is just a super brutal world where the only commemorative art is apparently tied to complete slaughter. 

The only other statue I recall was Lyanna's, which was hidden away in that crypt/cave, almost as if it were forbidden.

[stillshimpy]

I don't think that was a statue of Lyanna as much as it was her grave marker.  Oh God, you're right, that's where we've seen statues before, in the crypt.  As grave markers! 

Could it be? Would the gods be that good to us at long, long last?  Could Joffrey be about to perish?  Stomper of kittens, tormentor of orphans, wanker of wankers and the one and only Good King Psychopants be about to bloody well shuffle off the mortal coil?  If it's at the jaws of a direwolf, I will paaarrrrttyy.  Dance, dance, revolution! 

Edited April 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Thinking about that incredible opening: I could watch it for hours.  It's really a three-minute work of art (heh) -- about the length of classic popular song.

For starters, it begins with the last minute of the "Previously" where we see, beautifully edited, the images of  (1) Ned in Winterfell, drawing the sword from its scabbard, held by Theon (!), who looks on with a perfect glint of avidity; (2) cut to Payne at Baelor, finishing the drawing of the sword, cut to (3) Ned in Winterfell, praying by the execution stone, cut to (4) Ned at Baelor, kneeling at the execution block, cut to (5) (I think): Ned in WInterfell, beginning to deliver the blow, cut to (6) Ned at Baelor, receiving the blow, and (7), the red blade.

Only then into the opening: close-up of the wolfskin scabbard and a hand (Tywin's) withdrawing the sword, then handing it to the smith. The blade is struck off from the hilt. All those stunning shots of Tywin and the smelting and the pouring and the two-sword mold...

And then the music: shimpy's PTSD cellos, underscoring it all with "The Reynes" (instrumental version). Building up to Tywin's throwing the scabbard into the fire, and the last note of the accursed song flows straight into the first note of the beloved theme, with its own image of stag and wolf upon a blade.

Are you kidding me?  And not one word.  What a magnificent piece of directing and editing. Here's why the TV series narrative is sweeping all before it: the images were compelling, but their effect relied on our connection with three years' worth of story, each connection struck off on our hearts, sharp as flint upon a stone.  

[hobbers]

Initially when I saw Joffrey's statue I thought it was of some old Targaryen king since I associated, probably from modern times, that statues are made largely in honour of the fallen. Stillshimpy, the crypts are a very good shout with regards to statues and the dead, this could be a subtle hint at Joffrey's demise. *crosses fingers*. A character like Joffrey is set up for eventual death and he has lasted far longer than I thought he would. This could be his season, though I'd like to see him kill Tywin first in a stupid attempt to gain more power, and inadvertently considerably weaken his reign in the process.

If the king is to perish, question is who would be the perpetrator? This flash-bang Martell? No, too obvious. I would also be disappointed if it were Tyrion. I'll go with our newly re-appeared necklace fool, simply because it would be brilliant to see Joffrey's face as the stumbling drunk slides the blade into his flesh in one last attempt at heroism/retribution.

Pallas Having just re-watched that scene, I totally agree with you, very evocative. The fact the show, now in season 4, still makes events of season 1 resonate so well is testament to all involved.

[janjan]

ChocButterfly:   ...Crows' rebellion at Craster's!  Wasn't a Crow directly responsible for Mormont's death

Yup - it was that same guy that's been the troublemaker all along. He was the raper that Benjen slung into their camp on the way to the wall for the first time, prompting Tyrion to ask Jon if he was impressed with his new brothers. Then he picked on Sam in the training, so Jon set ghost on him while he slept. And when Mormont gave Jon his sword, everybody was applauding, except that guy who sat in the corner and looked pissy. He was also the one who wanted to leave Sam on the way back to Craster's because he was slowing them down. Then he stabbed Mormont in the back. As you see, I've been watching him in all his malfeasance, waiting to see whether he would get his comuppance. Oh wait, this is GoT. Cancel that.

Does Jorah know his father's dead? That's the kind of thing people start wars for.

 

 

[stillshimpy]

Fully agreed, Pallas, as much as it hurt, it was gorgeous and beautifully done by Charles Dance.  It hurt. It was almost physically painful, because I was trying not to cry, so it made my throat ache a little, while all the while thinking, "Oh please, please, please let Tywin lose EVERYTHING before he dies. EVERYTHING. " Then he threw the wolf pelt on the fire and I wanted him to have more things to lose, just so I could see it happen.  It was heartbreaking and infuriating.  

Then it went to the credits and we got a shot of poor Winterpile smoldering away and I got at least a brief respite as I chuckled, "So somewhere White Stumbler just turned bright red and choked out "Theon, you BASTARD!"  

All of the horrible stuff, the over-the-top violence and the nonstop death and then ...Boobs.  Because, it's not TV, It's HBO and there will be Breasts Aplenty.  

Also, I did a small victory dance in my seat when we got to the Wall without the damned Eyrie cropping up. 

[justawatcher]

Hi. I'm new. I was a lurker at TWoP because it was a pain in the a** to get validated to post.

I was glad to see someone else upthread mention the necklace, because it's been bothering me. The older lady threw a necklace off the wall. Was it the same necklace? Could he have found it in the brush and brought it to Sansa and now she's wearing a stolen piece of jewelry?

I am over Dany and the dragons. It's like last season with Theon- this story needs to either go somewhere or go away. How much longer can the blond chick march through the desert?

[gingerella]

My Spitball Wall brethren, a raven has been sent to each of you at the old castle wall...please fetch it's contents post haste, before said ravens vanish back into the dark, inky night...

As for last night's episode, I am at a loss.  I was happy to see so many updates on some of my favorite characters, and I was beyond thrilled to see Arya get Needle back in the first episode. I had been really wanting this season to see her get back Needle AND find her pup again, so one out of two on the first go round made me a happy spitballer!  Also telling was, wasn't this Arya's "first kill"?  I don't remember her killing before, and I loved - well, as much as one can love the literal version of bloody murder - the way she killed that bastard who killed that kid when they were hiding out on their forest walk about.  Talk about an eye for an eye.  And the girl didn't bat a lash whilst watching him choke on his own blood.  Arya is turning out to be quite the little bloodetter, her Daddy would be proud.  I hope she does get to Braavos and becomes both a master swordswoman and a shapeshifter, though I also don't want to lose the actor playing her so maybe I should let go of that last bit...

I was wondering how Sansa could wear that necklace without anyone asking her where she got it, and kudos to whomever said they thought it was the necklace that Diana Rigg threw over the wall.  Good catch, anyone re watch that bit yet?

Jon Snow's trial was a bit daft and I didn't get why the dude in charge let old Aemon get away with saying basically, "the dude is innocent, let him go get some dinner now..."  That was a bit weird.  And where is Sam's lady friend and her baby? 

Someone please tell me again, whose sword did Tywin melt down into two swords?  I missed that bit. Thanks.  I too, want Tywin to lose it all before he dies, he's a bastard. But then, I was also surprised at his emotion towards Jamie by gifting him a new Valerian steep sword...that was about as paternal and fatherly as I've seen him to be yet. 

Jamie and Brienne...I do hope she constantly reminds him of his promise to bring back the girls to Winterfell, and that he goes off with her, though I have great fear for Brienne's safety with Cersei close by. Regardless of whether she has locked her chastity belt to Jamie forever (what do you call a chastity belt that a willing twincestor would use to lock out her twin?  I've no idea!), I doubt she will take too kindly to his meaningful friendship with another vagina, yanno?  Run, Brienne, Run!

[abelard]

Pallas, that was such a beautiful review of the previews and opening scene.  Thank you for that.  

BUT WHO DID THAT SECOND SWORD GO TO?

ETA: gingerella: Arya has killed two other people before this: 1) the fat kid who surprised her in KL, as she was scrounging in the Stark trunks (amidst the bodies of the Stark retinue) for Needle - she found Needle just as the fat kid told her he'd turn her in; 2) the dude who was bragging about affixing Robb's direwolf's head to Robb's body (that little charade with the Braavos coin allowed her to get close enough to stab him repeatedly in the neck).  So this is her third kill. Edited again to add: She actually kills two men in the tavern fight.  The first one she runs a big sword through (no words), the second is Polliver, and he gets Needle and the little speech (his own words to Lomy parroted back to him).

Also, the sword melted down was Ned's ginormous sword.  That's why there was enough Valeryian steel in it to make two swords.

Edited April 8, 2014 by abelard

[90PercentGravity]

I think Oberyn (?) does have some kind of honor. He didn't just kill those Lannister men, even though he clearly could have. Sure, he bated them a bit, but even then he did not kill them. I think Myracell is safe. Yes, she is a Lannister, but she had nothing to do with what happened to his sister. She is young enough that she can be turned against her family if treated well, also.

Where is Dorne? It must be in the south, or maybe east? I wonder if it is near High Garden? I wish they would show these places on the map, even if they aren't tick tock cities.

Edited April 8, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[abelard]

Oh I forgot to note shimpy's spec as to why Sam may not have told Jon about seeing Bran: I see your point.  If Jon knew his little (handicapped) brother were within a day's ride of the Wall, and heading farther north, Jon would probably, okay definitely, chase him down.  So, we'll see if this comes up in a later episode.  But I wish we had gotten Sam conferring with Maester Aemon maybe about whether to tell Jon or not.  

As for why Jon's trial by Jackass (TM shimpy) went the way it did: I think it's because really, Maester Aemon runs the show now.  I mean, that horrible dude may be Lord Commander, and horrible dude #2 may be his lieutenant, but Aemon's been there for a thousand years - okay in all seriousness, he's been there since three or four kings ago (Aemon's brother became King when Aemon left for the Wall, then Aemon's nephew Aerys called The Mad King, then Robert, then Joffrey).  So he just wins every argument by seniority, I think.  That's why the two horrible dudes can give Jon as much flack as they want, the final verdict is still going to be whatever Aemon says. 

[stillshimpy]

BUT WHO DID THAT SECOND SWORD GO TO?

My husband and I rewatched tonight and he was obsessed with that.  "Who did it go to? One was smaller? Could it be for Tyrion?" 

Guys, I'd bet it was for Joffrey.  Yes, Tywin pretty much hates Joffrey, but Joffrey's the King (at least at present) and odds are good it's to be a wedding present, don't you think? 

Also, someone asked upthread if the necklace given to Sansa could have been the same one that Lady Tyrell pitched. No, it wasn't the same one.  The one Lady Tyrell pitched over the side of the terrace was a very heavily wrought gold with a chunky, thick chain.  The one given to Sansa was on a very delicate chain with bright blue stones.  It was actually very pretty.  

Also, it made me sort of proud of Sansa that she pulled herself out of her own misery long enough to be kind to him.  "Anyone would have done the same."  No Sansa, they wouldn't have. 

Edited April 8, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

Guys, I'd bet it was for Joffrey.  Yes, Tywin pretty much hates Joffrey, but Joffrey's the King (at least at present) and odds are good it's to be a wedding present, don't you think?

Oh yeah, you're probably right.  It definitely would make a great wedding present and Joffrey is a smaller dude than Jaime for sure.

But you know who else that sword is the right size for?  Arya Stark :) :) :).     

[gingerella]

Oh yeah, you're probably right. It definitely would make a great wedding present and Joffrey is a smaller dude than Jaime for sure.

But you know who else that sword is the right size for? Arya Stark :) :)

Duuuude, word, and yo! I can see the small sword for Joffs, but then somehow Arya ends up with it. And taking it a step further, since I believe Jamie knows the provenance of the swords, I could also see him at some point repatriating his sword to Arya and/or one of the remaining Stark siblings. You know, to show his honoring his commitment to impress Brienne. I could also see both swords melted down to make 4 smaller swords for Arya, Jon Snow, Bran and Rickon. So each remaining kid has a piece of pop...and yes I left out Sansa because IF she survives, I highly doubt she would want a sword anyway. Imagine how many walnuts Pauly Rickon could open with Valerian steel.

ETA: I could also see that Joffs goes fucking apeshit when he finds out that his one-handed unclefather got the bigger sword. That? could easily be enough to get Joffs on the killpath for both Jamie and Tywin. You know how narcissistic Joffrey is, it would be his very own wedding gift to himself to off his grandfather and/or uncledaddy.

Edited April 8, 2014 by gingerella

[Pallas]

I agree that the second sword must be for Joffrey: it wasn't that much smaller than Jaime's, and had it been meant for Tyrion, Tywin would have, well, hammered home the point.  

Still perturbed by what Cersei is up to with Dr. Goldglove.  If Cersei is trying to get a forge a note to get out of gym class...how exactly does one go about proving one is infertile?  How to make proof of an absence?  I could see her scheming to fake proof of fertility, if that were useful to her, or even fake a pregnancy, but again...unless she believes that were she pregnant in advance of the wedding, the Tyrells would call it off?  I still think it's possible that she is (inadvertantly) poisoning herself to become unmarriageable....but then, she seemed pleased to report that she was not experiencing any "symptoms," which would seem to be the point...

I'm certain she meant it when she told Tyrion, flatly, that she was not going to marry Loras. (And when Tyrion pointed out that he'd said the same of marrying Sansa, Cersei was unusually matter-of-fact when she rejoined, "You're not me.") But meanwhile, since the Maester only arrived in King's Landing with Jaime, Cersei probably didn't set Operation Hot Flash into action before then: that can't be what she meant by Jaime's being "too late."  So I suppose the simpler answer about that is, Cersei no longer thinks Jaime can challenge and defeat Loras or any other suitor for her. As she fantasized with Tyrion that he would have, had he been in King's Landing; as Jaime himself once promised to do, early in the first season: AKA, "The War for Cersei's Cunt."  

As for Dr. Goldglove...Has Cersei asked him to turn her into a man?  To make her lethal to the touch?  

[WhiteStumbler]

Pallas: Cersei always wanted to be a man in this world, but I don't think she is going to Maester Creepy (can't remember name - Clyburn?) for that. Induced menopause seems a good fit.

As for "King" Joffrey's demise, I am not holding my breath. It has been two seasons of playing 50 Ways to Kill a Weasel, with nothing so far. I know it is inevitable, but we may have him around for a while. He is useful to the plot, but he is also a fascinating character being brought to TV thru a brilliant performance. I will miss him when he is gone. I still want him done in by his uncledaddy (thanks, gingerella!), but that might be too ironic for them both. If Joffrey starts saying "kill them all", though, all bets are off.

[Pallas]

Cersei always wanted to be a man in this world, but I don't think she is going to Maester Creepy (can't remember name - Clyburn?) for that. Induced menopause seems a good fit.

 

How, though, does Cersei prove she's infertile?  What's the opposite of a bloody sheet?  I think it would take a vivid and inarguable demonstration to sway Tywin and the Tyrells (who are not actually a Motown girl group).  

Or would the ex-Maester's diagnosis somehow suffice?  With Tywin?  Really?  Wouldn't he just order Cersei melted down and made into two brides?  Then cast her wig into the fire? 

[stillshimpy]

Good morning, members of the Spitball Wall.  Today's  Helpful Hints on How to Survive Unsullied in a World of Bookwalkers brings you this tip:  There's an ignore feature on this board, guys.  Here's a link with directions on how to put someone on "I am ignoring your Bookwalking Butt" .  It's your Dragon Glass dagger, basically.  Convinced there's still a bookwalker in these parts? Well, there you go.  A way to make them vanish from your personal universe and back into the blue flames.  

On with the show.  

 

 

How, though, does Cersei prove she's infertile?  What's the opposite of a bloody sheet?  I think it would take a vivid and inarguable demonstration to sway Tywin and the Tyrells (who are not actually a Motown girl group)

Fun fact gleaned from my years of an avid interest in English history, particularly Tudor as well as The Wars of the Roses:  in our world those matters were monitored.  We know that Cersei had a spy to tell her when Sansa started having her periods, but chambermaids in general reported those matters. 

But there's something else: Out of seemingly nowhere, they changed Jaime and Cersei's age.  Suddenly we have mentions of "Hey, you're forty! Yo! Have I mentioned your age?  That means your twin sister is also forty!"  and it doesn't actually fit.  It's a honkin' retcon, folks.  We were told that Jaime Lannister was supposed to be sixteen years old when he stabbed Aerys Targaryen in the back.  Jon Snow, product of said rebellion was sixteen a year ago, which means he's seventeen now, at most. 

They have changed the math for some reason.  

 

 

 

Anyway, back to Arya.  It's okay, in that Arya is showing that she identifies with the power of the abuser... but some of her taunts and actions suggest she's identifying with their cruelty as well.  It's kind of worrisome.  I mean if she had her father, or one of her big brothers around to guide her, or a mentor like Yoren or her dancing master or Brienne to teach her how to be powerful without being cruel - I think she'd do okay.  Instead she's got the Hound - even if he's not as bad as he pretends that's still not a good role model on how to handle power.

So I did find it a little disturbing.

I agree, it is disturbing, but it's also about the only way that Arya can survive in this particularly world. It's also part of the reason poor Sansa sticks around King's Landing, wearing clothes she could barely run in, if pursued by hell hounds.  Arya's only chance at survival was to adapt to the world gone mad.  When she and the Hound were riding away, it was into a scorched , desolate , blighted area.  Scenery on their road trip?  Corpses and flies.  I don't think she'd become cruel herself, just (unfortunately) having to set aside many of the rules she learned growing up, in order to keep telling death "Not today".  

Good to see you again, Sackett, by the way.  I think I recall you from last season too.  Glad you made the migration. 

Edited April 8, 2014 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Which one was Thenns, Constantinople?

[MrMicrophone]

Conan,

Yara's also pretty decent, isn't she? I think that it's just Westerosi style that favors the big man (or woman). [Then again, Loras isn't exactly huge.]

In the real world, there were plenty of styles of swordsmanship -- arya would fit with the cloak and "dagger" style (which uses a cloak to conceal movements of the sword). It's a style that emphasizes speed, and is useful in close quarters (where Ned's longsword technique would not work). 

[DirewolfPup]

My husband and I rewatched tonight and he was obsessed with that.  "Who did it go to? One was smaller? Could it be for Tyrion?" 

Also, someone asked upthread if the necklace given to Sansa could have been the same one that Lady Tyrell pitched. No, it wasn't the same one.  The one Lady Tyrell pitched over the side of the terrace was a very heavily wrought gold with a chunky, thick chain.  The one given to Sansa was on a very delicate chain with bright blue stones.  It was actually very pretty.  

Also, it made me sort of proud of Sansa that she pulled herself out of her own misery long enough to be kind to him.  "Anyone would have done the same."  No Sansa, they wouldn't have. 

This is a good example of why I love Sansa (my favorite character). She's the only person in this whole story that is truly a nice, caring individual. Her hope and strength in the midst of a waking nightmare called life has me admiring her all the more. Please, for the love of all things let her live. If she dies, I'm going to be a wreck.

Edited April 8, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[janjan]

Whitestumbler:  [Joffrey] is also a fascinating character being brought to TV thru a brilliant performance.

Jack Gleeson is my nominee for the best actor in The Show. Peter Dinklage and Maisie Williams are tied for second. Charles Dance is legendary, but he hasn't been given as much to do -- just look cold and stern, which he does perfectly, of course.

[Shadowlass]

I don't think she could ever make a great swords(wo)man, gingerella. She simply lacks size and strength and would be easily overpowered, no matter how good her technique. The only other woman in this world who can compete with men is Brienne, and that's because she's clearly absolutely every bit as tall and strong. Those dancing lessons were nice, but more a present from Ned to make her feel better and pass the time, like the equivalent of a trip to the Westerosi version of Disney Land and ultimately won't help her all that much. Arya should turn her weakness into a strength and become the stealthy kind of fighter. Preferably with a bow, she's already decent at that. Or sneak behind them and stick them with the pointy end...

I don't think we've seen anything that indicates Arya can't become a great swordfighter because of her size. Syrio was described as a master swordfighter, and he was barely bigger than she was in season one. And we haven't actually seen grown women other than Brienne succeed at fighting men because at this point she's the only woman we've actually seen try.

[abelard]

Inigo Martell (TM White Stumbler) seems focused on The Mountain and Tywin, though contemptful of all Lannisters. I don't know that he would try to get at Joffrey. But everything is so incredibly public, it's a freakin' royal wedding - he can't challenge one of these people and get out of there alive, and he certainly doesn't seem to be keeping his intentions a secret. And why would he bring the wrath of the Lannisters down on his kingdom? He seems to have a pretty committed relationship (if not monogamous). Does he also have a death wish?

 

Colored Francie, I think that Inigo Martell (TM WS) is definitely going to go for Tywin's throat at some point.  But you raise good points about what that would mean - he and his "paramour" in deep pigsh*t unless they escape KL immediately afterwards, and then probably a war between House Martell and House Lannister.  But House Martell *has* a Lannister in their possession - Myrcella - and I wonder if that will come into play.  Myrcella turns from "guest" to "prisoner" overnight, and maybe that forestalls that war.  Martells claim it was just vengeance, and Lannisters just have to sit on their hands and take it, maybe.  I'm interested to see what Inigo Martell does - he seems focused, and highly capable with weapons, and extremely prone to violence (his paramour kept trying to distract him/calm him down - she has seen him lose his pigsh*t countless times, methinks).  He seems like a real player, for sure - he's going to make some very strong moves.

 

Whitestumbler:  [Joffrey] is also a fascinating character being brought to TV thru a brilliant performance.

Janjan: Jack Gleeson is my nominee for the best actor in The Show.

 

In my rewatch of S3, I couldn't believe what a great actor Jack Gleeson is.  His every muscle movement, every twitch of his smarmy bit*hface, is incredibly "motivated," as pretentious actorly types say - but in this case, it's true!!  In the scene where Tyrion comes into the small council b/c they have news of the Red Wedding, Joffrey's little dance of excitement (he can't WAIT to tell Tyrion) is so horrible, so repulsive, but it is SO REAL.  That kid's acting is a kind of magic, for sure.  

Okay I had another thought about Ser Jorah: Wasn't he kicked out of Westeros (by Ned) for slavetrading?  And Dany's whole entire project is slavefreeing.  I don't think Jorah is a slaver in his heart but he *did* engage in that trade -- highly illegal in Westeros, apparently -- and so isn't it totally ironic that he's serving Queen Liberator?  Just thought I'd bring it up.  Also: Jorah I think sold slaves to please his wife (?), and now he's helping to free slaves to please another woman.  Jorah's beliefs about the institution of slavery are 100% dependent on whatever woman he's crushing on at the moment.  

[90PercentGravity]

Jack Gleeson plays the part so well that I worry about the awful things people must say to him.

[WhiteStumbler]

Charles Dance is legendary, but he hasn't been given as much to do -- just look cold and stern, which he does perfectly, of course.

I stumbled (HA!) across Dance in an episode of a show called Foyle's War, about a detective in England at the outbreak of WWII. Dance played a Nazi sympathizer (naturally), but I found myself thinking that the character was a lot more powerful / manipulative / cunning than the actual show indicated, because it was Tywin Lannister!

I also ran into David Bradley (Walder Frey) in a wonderful British series called Broadchurch. He played a character accused of killing a young boy (about all I can say w/o spoilers for another show), but I found myself immediately thinking he was guilty because, duh, Walder Frey! And he wasn't even a wedding caterer or anything.

stillshimpy: How is A Show screwing with the timeline? Jaime was appointed Kingsguard by the Mad King as a teenager, but IDK if A Show said for how long he had served TMK before killing him. If he was appointed at 16 and served 5 years before the start of Robert's Rebellion, then he would be close to 40 as S4 starts.

Really, I am confused as to what Cersei is trying to do, but I think the spec that the other half of Ice is bound for "King" Joffrey is probably true, and the thought makes me ill.

Is a female illegitimate child still called a bastard? I found the word jarring.

[90PercentGravity]

I also ran into David Bradley (Walder Frey) in a wonderful British series called Broadchurch. He played a character accused of killing a young boy (about all I can say w/o spoilers for another show), but I found myself immediately thinking he was guilty because, duh, Walder Frey!

 

Ha, same here. The whole time I was saying "Obviously Walder Frey did it, that guy's a dick!"

Is a female illegitimate child still called a bastard? I found the word jarring.

Yes, they are. I think it sounded odd because we are used to it as more of an insult toward men who are jerks, than a derogatory term for a child out of wedlock, though.

Edited April 8, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[WhiteStumbler]

Tywin: "Explain to me why it is more noble to kill 10,000 men in battle than a dozen at dinner."

This has been running thru my mind since my rewatch of the last few episodes of S3 Sunday. I actually watched Ep9 and 10 back-to-back, then rolled right into S4 premier, so it was a pretty GoT immersive day at the Stumbler household. The only in-world explaination of why one is OK and the other an affront to humanity is religion. The Rat Cook story that Bran tells in Ep10 - "It wasn't for the murder that the Gods cursed the Rat Cook, or for serving the King's son in a pie. He killed a guest beneath his roof. That's something the Gods can't forgive."

Walder Frey is going down! Pleasepleaseplease!!! Unless the Lord of Light thing sweeps across Westeros? Maybe the LoL doesn't give a rat (cook)'s ass about hospitality?

While looking (veeeery carefully) for the exact quote on IMDB, I also found this (from the geography lesson that Maester Luwin <sob!> was giving Bran back in the first season):
Bran: "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken".
Maester Luwin: [sighs] That's House Martell.

So now we know the Martel words. And I thought they were "We Always Screw".

ETA: Thanks, 90Percent. It sounded weird, but I will accept it.

Edited April 8, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[DirewolfPup]

Speaking of, who is paying for Jaime's golden hand?  Or did Tywin already pay for it before "banishing" Jaime from the family?

Wait, Jamie was disowned? I thought Tywin was annoyed, but not THAT annoyed.

FYI: Game of Thrones has been renewed for Seasons 5 and 6. Yay! Completely expected, but nice to hear.

[Shadowlass]

Speaking of, who is paying for Jaime's golden hand?  Or did Tywin already pay for it before "banishing" Jaime from the family?

I find it fascinating that the Lannisters would have Jaime's hand made out of a material that is beautiful and valuable, but soft and easily damaged. Which I guess might be a metaphor for how Tywin sees Jaime himself.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

What will Cersei conclude about Shae being in Tyrion’s rooms without Sansa present? That he’s shtupping his wife’s handmaiden? Would that matter terribly to Cersei? Unless she puts it together that Shae was/is a prostitute. Would she strike then?

I wonder if she will act immediately (as in, Shae dies in episode 2) or if she will keep this card in her back pocket and Tyrion will upset her in a later episode by doing [WHATEVER] causing her to retaliate by outing Shae to Tywin or taking care of her herself the way she did Ros in season 2. I can see them waiting several episodes to actually kill her, so the less observant among us might forget that Shae was "spied" by someone on Cersei's payroll.

 

 

Yup - it was that same guy that's been the troublemaker all along. He was the raper that Benjen slung into their camp on the way to the wall for the first time, prompting Tyrion to ask Jon if he was impressed with his new brothers.

btw I totally love how we saw that guy very early on in Season 1 and he wasn't truly important until a pivotal scene in season 3. Wow, the planning...

 

Then he threw the wolf pelt on the fire and I wanted him to have more things to lose, just so I could see it happen.  It was heartbreaking and infuriating.

Am I the only one who assumed this was Grey Wind's pelt? I guess maybe not since it appeared to have been a scabbard for Ice, but seems like making a scabbard out of your house sigil is a little iffy, so I thought maybe they just wrapped GW's pelt around it.

[stillshimpy]

White Stumbler, I thought when Jaime and Ned had their stand-off in the Throne room , it was mentioned that Jaime was sixteen-years-old at the time.  Similarly, I thought Cersei had also referenced being about that age when she married Robert.  I could, of course, be wrong about all of that.  I haven't watched the first season in a long time, but I thought we were specifically told that Jaime was sixteen-years-old not just when he joined the King's Guard, but when he stabbed Aerys in the back. 

[ChocButterfly]

I just realized, the Targaryans have actually married with other Houses, or at least the Martels. So I was wondering if maybe Dorne is on Dany's side.

[abelard]

I'm gathering from above posts that Ned's sword was called "Ice."  When did we learn that?  I must have missed it. 

Also, re: Jaime's missing hand and his family ostracizing him or alienating him in various ways:  I think that Jaime's de-handing "reads" like a castration to Cersei and to Joffrey.  In Cersei's mind, Jaime is now impotent.  It's not true literally, it's a kind of equivalence she's making in her mind, I think.  And Joffrey - to him, any physical defect is a serious detriment ("I like her pretty," he hissed to the knight who was in charge of beating Sansa in the throne room, indicating Sansa's face should be left intact, even if the rest of her was going to be beat to a pulp).  

Edited April 8, 2014 by abelard

[stillshimpy]

To the best of my knowledge, the sword doesn't have a name.  But I'm willing to bet that Radiant just met up with the same thing I did in the SG1 forum.  Some funky form of autocorrect on a word I didn't complete properly.  

Okay, thank you for keeping us updated, David.  I know we're all sorry to be such a drain on the moderating resources. I'm not sure I understand "self-policing" and the walled forum, but again, apologies to the moderators.  There's a reason there's only one thread like this on the internet.  I'm genuinely sorry it's turning out to be such a headache.  If there's anything we can do to try and make life easier, please let us know. 

I wonder if she will act immediately (as in, Shae dies in episode 2) or if she will keep this card in her back pocket and Tyrion will upset her in a later episode by doing [WHATEVER] causing her to retaliate by outing Shae to Tywin or taking care of her herself the way she did Ros in season 2. I can see them waiting several episodes to actually kill her, so the less observant among us might forget that Shae was "spied" by someone on Cersei's payroll.

I think that the fact that Jaime was there when the maid came into spill the beans might be a good thing.  As weird as this is to write out, Cersei was in the process of dumping Jaime, so he might actually turn right around and tell Tyrion, "Look, get your girlfriend out of this place before Cersei feeds her to the geese, a la the last duke of Coffin Castle (any Thurber fans? Yes? No? Trust me, it's funny)". 

So maybe what will come out of the "Shae has been discovered" news is that Tyrion will actually force himself to tell her to get lost.  We've been hearing since last year, "If he wants me to go, he can tell me himself." 

[stillshimpy]

Walled Garden: Create a place where Unsullied have to be allowed in to participate i.e. closed membership.

Okay, would other people still be able to view it?  Because that might be our answer if that could be the case.  Create a closed group is the general idea?  Since part of the reason we're always under siege is that other people really enjoy reading it, if we could could create a closed group that would still allow other people to read it, that's probably the best answer.  Our actual group really barely needs modding.  We get along famously, which is why we've been doing this together, in most cases, for years. 

ETA: Sorry, didn't see the "please don't reply here" until after I wrote this out.  Wait, you likely meant for people who want to be mods "don't reply here" got it.  

Edited April 8, 2014 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

90%: Jack Gleeson plays the part so well that I worry about the awful things people must say to him.

People say the strangest things. There's a British actor named Tim Piggott-Smith, who played a baddie in a saga about the British in India ("Jewel in the Crown"}. He said that one day a woman stomped up to him and said, "You!!!" You're 'IM!! If I 'ad a restaurant, I wouldn't let you eat at it."

Huh? I hope that's the worst Jack Gleeson ever hears, but I'm not optimistic.

Shimpy: The preferred devourer of body parts on GoT is goats, at least until we met those funky Wildlings. Remember Shagga's repeated threats to Tyrion. And there was that wonderful scene where Tyrion, Bron, and Shagga arrest Pycelle and threaten him with castration. Bron protests that they're short of goats at the moment, and Tyrion, exasperated, snaps, "Oh make do."

[stillshimpy]

I completely understand the difficulty it poses, and I'm sorry it has been such trouble. We have a closed forum that we can go to, if it comes to that.    

Edited April 8, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

Oh that's super cool of you, silverstormm, thank you for volunteering!  I was just thinking that we just need a Bookwalker to become a designated mod for this forum - someone who could answer all of the pesky inquiries etc., and kick off intrusive Bookwalkers.  I'll defer to shimpy as our leader, or a group vote or whatever it takes, but I for one am in favor of your becoming a mod.

Edited April 8, 2014 by abelard

[stillshimpy]

Guys, let's go back to speculating, okay?  People interested in volunteering for mod duties, [just hold tight for now - DTC]. Thanks for caring everyone, sincerely. 

To the Spitball wall, we ride! 

Okay, here we go.  I do think Tyrion, given a choice, would absolutely gut-up and tell Shae to leave.  I don't know what a spurned Shae would do though and it might spell trouble if Jaime listens to Brienne and tries to get Sansa out of King's Landing, at long, long last.  

Where could she go?  I'm going to discount the Eyrie because it is known that Lyssa is mad.  Volantis? 

If Shae ends up feeling betrayed though, I think that she wouldn't betray Sansa in return.  Shae has her faults, but her affection for Sansa seems genuine.  Plus, I think the portly Fool might get a chance to be a knight in some respect when it comes to Sansa.  Admittedly, this story doesn't generally do "good things happen" so I may just be dreaming. 

Edited April 9, 2014 by David T. Cole
Please wait on mod volunteering. Appreciate the thought, but we are not there yet. :)

[roadrunner]

After seeing Dany's black dragon switch from cuddly and content to snappy, I'm wondering about the riding of the dragons into battle.  There were two references to Wargs in this episode, so I'm curious if the old Targs were using the dragons more like drones (or eagles or owls).   It seems odd that all the Wargs we know about are in the North when they are so useful as scouts, and seem to be a common element in the different tribes, so much so that the scary man-eating head Thenn just had to nod at his when meeting the wall climbing Wildlings to answer the question of finding them.

So...my speculations about this are twofold - Were the Targaryens Wargs as well as fireproof?  Could our known northern Wargs be the best line of defense during a dragon attack?  

[stillshimpy]

Then you aren't Unsullied TooMuchCoffee.  I'm sorry, but we are complete non-readers. Please take care and post in the non-spoiler threads.  Go with the gods, may fortune smile on you and all that, but you aren't Completely Unspoiled (although I genuinely appreciate you just admitting that you've read two of the books).  

roadrunner, that's an interesting one.  I think someone last year posed the possibility that the Wildlings might be able to control the Dragons, but it would be interesting -- and more fitting -- if the Targaryen dragons had a psychic link with their dragons.  

Edited April 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

If Shae ends up feeling betrayed though, I think that she wouldn't betray Sansa in return.  Shae has her faults, but her affection for Sansa seems genuine.  Plus, I think the portly Fool might get a chance to be a knight in some respect when it comes to Sansa.  Admittedly, this story doesn't generally do "good things happen" so I may just be dreaming. 

I think that Brienne, Shae, and the portly Fool may *all* have to get involved with sneaking Sansa out of KL.  I think the Fool may have given Sansa at least a bit of a cover story - with a necklace that belonged to his family (his mother and her mother before her, right?), Sansa can reasonably pass for a member of that family.  She has an heirloom and some background info on that family to tell strangers.  And she could sell the necklace if it came to it (she might be loath to do that, but hey, the Fool meant to give Sansa the necklace as a big thank you, and if it allowed her to eat and buy a horse, I think the Fool would be happy for her to sell it).  Brienne has the physical strength and Shae has enough cunning and will to help Sansa out.  All of their gifts might be needed to make it happen.  And you know what?  If they decide to undertake Operation: Sansa's Escape from KL, I fully expect all three of them to die trying.  Even if they succeed and Sansa makes it out of there, I think her helpers will all pay the Ned Stark price of loyalty.  (Tywin: "What killed him [your father]?"  Arya: "Loyalty.")

But where would/could Sansa go?  I think the reason she won't go to the Vale is that I would think she knows that Littlefinger is there.  Shae has already warned her about Littlefinger so I think Sansa would avoid it, and good for her.  But where is left to her, that she would know would be safe?  Oh - maybe she could go to wherever the Fool is from?  But his house seems a bit in ruin, and his family, what is left of it, may not take kindly to Sansa showing up with their family heirloom around her neck -- they may not have the sense of gratitude/loyalty to her that the Fool does. 

ETA: It occurs to me that Sansa's new necklace may not help her out at all, since Grandma Tyrell may want it for Margery Tyrell.  I didn't get too close a look at it but Granny Tyrell may think it's the most beautiful one in KL, in which case Sansa will have it no more.  In which case...I suppose it would just be a tragic ending to the Fool's story?  Gah, this show...Westeros is a sad, sad place that makes me think sad, sad thoughts...

Edited April 9, 2014 by abelard

[LSM]

Just wanted to pop in and thank Which Tyler for posting those screen caps of the three pages from that book. I did my best to transcribe them for another forum - thought maybe I'd save a regular here the eyestrain and post them for you guys:

EDIT: Woops, seems my help was uneeded! Ser TellSackett The Eagle Eyed.

Edited April 9, 2014 by LSM

[90PercentGravity]

Is Dragonstone where Stannis is/was? After the rebellion it was given to Stannis by Robert and Renly got... Stormsend? Someplace like that. Now that Renly is dead and had no heirs, I wonder who is Lord of whatever that place was? I suppose it would be Tomlin?

[DemosthenesKey]

I just find the thread and new one takes its place...

Oh, well. It's worth creating an account to a place that's safe from Bookwalkers. I had to stop watching it with my roommate after he kept giving me Looks right before something important was about to happen. Bookwalkers are everywhere...

I'm quite interested in Sansa's story, just because they'll have to do something with her this season or else risk her becoming a new Bran (aka Mr. Do Nothing for the Whole Season). I'm going to spitball that the Tyrells will help her get out, as originally intended. Margaery can't be completely heartless - she's practical, but kind when it suits her.