Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[WhiteStumbler]

Hizdahr zo Loraq is Dany's intended.

[janjan]

I like Your Future Grace better.

[stillshimpy]

Hizdahr zo Loraq is Dany's intended.

 

Holy carp.  Even for this show, that is downright excessive.  

 

Hizzie it is.   

[WhiteStumbler]

Fo shizzle, mah hizzle.

[gingerella]

Holy carp.  Even for this show, that is downright excessive.  

 

Hizzie it is.   

Well, its about on par with our friend Mr. Ducksauce, remember him?

[janjan]

I hope Hizzie lasts long enough to make finding his name worth the trouble. (We must preserve our Annal Maester's energy for important questions.) Ducksauce, he of the wonderful name, made it through several eps before Dany off'ed him. But I just can't see her married to Hizzie, so Daario must be right that he's a baddie. Ergo, he'll soon be consumed by dragon fire, probably in E9. Right after Jorah performs his last heroic service, saving Dany from the Harpies at the games, and then shuffles off to Valyria to live with the other stone men. <sniff>

 

Betcha there's a nefarious reason why Hizzie is so insistent that Dany attend the games. He must have some Harpy action planned.

Edited June 4, 2015 by janjan

[gingerella]

He must have some Harpy action planned.

He's planning on giving Dany a case of Harpies as a wedding gift perhaps?

[DirewolfPup]

Betcha there's a nefarious reason why Hizzie is so insistent that Dany attend the games. He must have some Harpy action planned.

 

Good spitball! I could really see this happening. Going to have to dragon murder Hizzle ASAP.

[gingerella]

So, uh, I hesitate to say this but, I woke up this morning thinking about this show and here's what I was thinking...

 

First, I cannot remember so can one of my Unsullied Spitball Wall brethren please refresh A Viewer's memory?  How did Stannis know that Jon needed his cavalry to ride in and save him and the NW from Mance's Wildling invasion at the end of last season?  I cant remember, was it a vision Mel saw in the fire or did Jon or someone send a ravengram? I cannot remember at all.

 

Second, I was thinking about how Mel's been eyeing Jon since she set her eyes on him...What if Mel's magical mojo is something that requires "topping off" because it gets depleted when she tosses out a big spitball to Stannis? What if she knows she's running out of magical steam, so to speak, and she needs to top up her magic power reserves?  And what if the way she does that is to schtup a dude who has some sort of power to him.  In the case of Gendry, we know/theorize that she senses/knows he has King's blood in him since he is Robert's bastard, so she would gain more power from that, natch. But why does she want to ride Jon's baloney pony so badly? IF - and that's a big 'IF' that we may never know - Jon is indeed the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryan, he would have Targ blood in him, right? What if he is one of the Targ's (hehe, I keep typing Tard by mistake...or is it?...) who is immune to fire? What if Mel senses/intuits that, and by schtupping Jon, she thinks she will become immune to fire, ergo, she can do some pretty nifty mind fucking with folks when it comes time to get a whole bunch of people to bend the knee to her God of Fire? Imagine a huge group of people poo-pooing and mocking her and her God, then she literally walks through fire untouched - because she got some sort of fire immunity from doing Jon - I would imagine being able to pull off something like that would get a whole lotta folks to convert immediately, yes?

 

What thinketh you all? I know, I know, it's not healthy to wake up and have this be the thing you're mulling over before you get out of bed.

[WhiteStumbler]

I like the spec, but Jon isn't immune to fire. He burned his hand throwing a lamp at the zomboni that came to kill Ld Cmd Mormont.

As for how Stannis knew to come visit The Wall, Maester Aemon sent ravens across the 7K, Davos read one, Stannis sentenced Davos to death for freeing Gendry, Mel burned the scroll and said 'death marches on The Wall', and to bring Davos because he was needed as well.

[gingerella]

Thanks Maester WS! It's weird that so far, only Stannis responded or even mentioned reading Maester Aemon's ravegram. I don't recall anyone else saying boo about it. I mean come ON, you get a ravengram saying that WWs are real and ARE coming NOW and you don't DO anything? Just keep going about your business? Strange...

 

I didnt' remember about Jon's burn, too bad, I liked that spitball...sniff...

[ChocButterfly]

You're right, Ginger, people should at least be talking about what the hell is happening on the Wall. But apparently they all saw the letter and just dismissed it immediately, without even giving it a second thought. I kind of wish the WW with their fucking army of dead knock on their doors all of a sudden, specially in King's Landing. Unfortunately, they'd have to pass the Wall, the North and all that stuff in the middle and kill everything around before they can get to King's Landing.

 

You know, if I had been in that dead battle with Winter coming (or may we start saying came?), I'd run the hell all the way to Dorne. At least they won't have snow and is the last place the WW will get to in Westeros. After that, a boat to Essos as far away as possible!!

[Pallas]

My guess is that the the lordly powers in Westeros have an even worse view of the Watch than it has duly earned.  The Watch is where the heads o f Houses send their most hated sons, their worst criminals not worth killing, their dregs.  They have used the Watch as their toilet.   

 

So any message sent from the Watch -- even from a former lord and honored man like Mormont -- is probably ignored.  Perhaps unopened, assumed to be one more request for supplies or men.  Or opened and shrugged off as a scheme to ramp up urgency for men and supplies.  (Isn't that what Stannis thought, at first?)   

 

I like that aspect of the story.  How it displays a matter-of-factness about the facts of how real people really act.  How many times in our own history has good intelligence been ignored, or bad intelligence acted upon -- even without its having been twisted to the needs of the rulers?

[janjan]

Choc: You know, if I had been in that dead battle with Winter coming (or may we start saying came?), I'd run the hell all the way to Dorne. At least they won't have snow and is the last place the WW will get to in Westeros. After that, a boat to Essos as far away as possible!!

You and Osha. Remember when Robb and Theon (he was Theon then) first captured her. She said she was going "as far south as South goes" -- fleeing something scary beyond the Wall. Now we've seen what.

 

Essos now seems like a better bet since the baddies can't swim. Dany had better stay put, although I suspect she and the dragons will be the saviors of Westeros.

[Pallas]

Great point, janjan: so we have the White Walker army of zombonis in the North, which cannot travel across water, mirroring the Dothraki mounted armies in the East, whose horses had never been transported across saltwater.  But the first seems to be a "can't" while the second seems to be a "not yet."  Not saying it's the easiest thing in the world to provide feed or gallons of fresh water daily to ocean-faring horses -- or even to load horses onto ships -- but Stannis proved it can be done.

 

Perhaps just by standing on the shore with Melisandre, and seeming to offer the horses the option of staying there with them, or venturing onto the ships.

[stillshimpy]

Why can't they travel across water, I wonder?  I know, I know "because it's in the plot!" but I wonder if there's any logic to it? I mean, it's not as if they can drown.  

 

I like that aspect of the story.  How it displays a matter-of-factness about the facts of how real people really act.  How many times in our own history has good intelligence been ignored, or bad intelligence acted upon -- even without its having been twisted to the needs of the rulers?

 

I agree with the notion that it would be a nice note within the story, to show that everyone was warned in plenty of time to try and band together to prepare.  It would have been a resonant note of reality in a story about Armies of the Dead, for one thing.  That's how people behave, after all.  

 

However, for that to work at all within the story as a purposeful choice, they do need to make it clear that that is what has happened.  Instead, it is simply not discussed in King's Landing.  We finally got confirmation from Tywin last season that they were aware of the dragons, but dismissed them as sideshow freaks the size of cats.   In order for a device echoing reality and truly human response to work, it has to be made clear that is what has happened and the story has been decidedly unclear about it.  

 

It's just sort of pretended it never happened.  There hasn't been any "Drunk men, boasting over wine, trying to scare the new recruits.  Year after year it happens.  We hear reports of giants, or wraiths.  I remember Robert telling me they'd sent a raven claiming the beasts had learned to speak and were trying to overrun the castle.  That a horse would sit atop the Iron Throne if we didn't act quickly.  They're  condemned men with nothing better to do than get drunk and in the absence of whoring , they let their imaginations run wild."   Or something far more concise.  

 

But damn, they need to say something, or else it isn't a neat device.  It's an abandoned plot.  

[ChocButterfly]

Completely agree, Shimpy. Plus, what the fuck happened to the zombie hand??!! Did the guy eat in on the way to King' s Landing? I'm sure a zombie hand should have at least make them wondered if there's something weird going on at the Wall.

[DirewolfPup]

That zombie hand should be included in the missing characters thread.

[Llywela]

So I've been thinking about Arya's story this season, and where that might be heading, which made me wonder what exactly she's learned from her time with the Faceless Men. Because she's in training with them, presumably learning how to become one and take on new faces, and in most narratives that training would end with success and we'd see her turning around with a new face. But somehow I just can't see that happening, and not only because Maisie Williams. What we've seen in the show so far mostly seems to be pointing in the other direction, toward her failing her training. Because I really don't think she's learned much there at all. Well, I suppose she's learned how to be a better liar, so that's one thing. And she's spent a lot of time sweeping floors and washing bodies, which I guess is intended to teach her humility, but I honestly don't think it's worked - I've seen no indication that she learned anything substantive from those duties. They just frustrate her. She's supposed to be learning to let go of Arya Stark and become A Girl, but her sense of self is too strong. She's supposed to be dedicating herself to the Many Faced God, but abandons his work to pursue her own vendettas. There's no way she's going to pass her training on this showing. So if the season perhaps ends with her making a break from the Faceless Men, whether because they throw her out or she chooses to leave, what then? You'd expect her to have at least gained a few skills from her time with them, to make the time spent there worthwhile, narratively speaking...but I really don't see that she's learned anything worthwhile at all. She's perhaps a tad better at undercover work than she might otherwise have been, but that's it. So where, I wonder, is her story heading?

 

Maybe the turnaround in the finale will simply be her realisation that she does need to actually knuckle down, abandon her sense of self, and become a true zealot dedicated to the cause...I dunno.

[Pallas]

I agree with you completely, Llywela, that Arya's story within the House of Black and White is going to be just another waystation on her Pilgrim's Progress.  I can't say I'm sorry.  I don't really want her to become a faceless Vengeance Demon, nor do I see her tale tending that way.  Ja'qen knows.  Whether he would have it be otherwise, I don't know, but he is far more discerning of what is in her heart than she can stand to be.  What he has given her is a safe respite, and a key question: "Who are you?"  

 

Arya's Needle and her two targets (Trent and the insurance pimp), would all be in proximity at the waterfront, if Arya resolved her inner conflict only when Mace and company prepared to depart. What she chooses to do then, and if she succeeds, will determine where she goes next, and why.

[Llywela]

I guess I just feel that if this is simply another waystation, I'd like to come out of it feeling that she has actually learned something, gained new skills that will help her on her quest - if she's going to re-dedicate herself to vengeance, she's going to need more than the few water dancing lessons she had with Syrio all those years ago. But maybe the idea of gaining key skills/knowledge along the way is too stereotypical of the hero's journey, which this show likes to reject, so perhaps all she'll have learned at the end of it is a) how to tend a corpse, and b) that she doesn't really have what it takes to be a Faceless Man! If the key question was 'who are you?', perhaps she's learned that the answer is always going to be 'Arya Stark', however certain she thought she was that she was ready to shed her old self. But was she ever certain she wanted this? Or did she only ever see it as an opportunity to learn to do what Ja'qen does but for her own ends? If the latter, I can't see her being anything but disappointed come the end, 'cause she hasn't learned any of those skills. I imagine they take years - and Arya doesn't have that kind of patience!

[DirewolfPup]

Llywela, I agree. When she hid needle, she sealed her fate.

[ChocButterfly]

I don't think Arya will ever be a true Faceless God Assassin. For one, I bet she could never really dedicate herself to a god, she seems like a true skeptic. But I do think she will learn valuable skills from this. She'll probably learn to lie, disguise herself and who knows, maybe even change her appearance. I don't think she'll complete her training in the end, like you said, it must take years, and I don't think she has the patience or conviction. So, sh won't be a Master Assassin, but she'll learn enough to fulfill her goals. So, no I don't think her time with Jaquen is worthless. She is learning, and not only to clean floors.

 

On the other hand, if she changes her face, they could do what they do in other TV shows so we don't lose the actor. They could still use the same actor and show another face once in a while, like when she sees herself in a mirror, or when we see her through the eyes of another character and that's when they'll show another actor's face.  But we can mainly see her as the Arya we know, because we'll know it's her.

[Pallas]

Here's a thought.  Maybe Arya will come out of this with what she needs to realize -- not now, but later -- that she may have what it takes to be something other than a killer.  She actually did a good job of comforting those who came to her to die.  (And, okay: in hilarious contrast to how she treated the Hound, when he asked the same...)  She engaged and drew them out, just as she did Tywin.  Even if Tywin was indulging himself in speaking to a prisoner/servant he could have executed on the spot, still: he wasn't a man who often indulged, and especially not in confidences.  

 

She continues to be effective at going undercover and gathering intelligence, for whatever that might be worth.  She may even...just maybe...have found in herself a latent sympathy for a communal life -- that, or absolutely and forever ruled it out!  Either way, the House is the first above-ground society in which she's lived since Winterfell: she wasn't really part of the King's Landing scene, and while she led her little band of fellow prisoners at Harrenhall, they weren't really a society. The scope of her education is opening up: not just a succession of fighting-man mentors.  And what she may come to learn here from Ja'qen, even in restrospect, may have little to do with his martial skills.  Or her own.  

 

i want to believe that with Arya's outlier's story in particular, the saga wants to show how we do much of our best learning long after the fact.

[stillshimpy]

Here's another thought:  Who's to say that the House of Black and White is actually what it appears to be?  Monkish observance of the many-faced god, a super-grim version of Robin Hood's Merry Assassins, with Face-Changing Accessories.  

 

What Jaqen is telling Arya and what we have seen is not necessarily the true, or rather, entire story of their purpose.  As far as we know, no one prayed to the Many-Faced god to bring him Arya's aid and there's just no damned way he was really in rolling Twig cage without any means of escape.  I mean, please.  So Jaqen was there for a reason from jump and just because Jaqen tells Arya "This is what we do" doesn't mean there aren't more facets to the entire gig of being a Faceless Man. 

 

If they lie and subsume self all.the.time then why would we assume we're seeing all that they are?  An assisted suicide and assassin wish fulfillment service?  

 

Maybe that's more like Level 1 scientology stuff and Arya isn't failing a task by being unable to be some Many-Faced Drone, she may be passing an entirely different one.  

 

Why wouldn't the Many Faced gig also be about having Many Purposes and Arya will just end up being assigned to another one? 

Edited June 12, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

For one, I bet she could never really dedicate herself to a god, she seems like a true skeptic.

 

 

Absolutely love that, ChocButterfly:  I immediately saw Maisie Williams's round little "Tell me another" face.  And your idea of how the show could keep that face for us, in the unlikely event that Arya doesn't flunk out of Third Person/Non-person school this weekend.  Or get "sent down," as the Brits say.

[Pallas]

Who's to say that the House of Black and White is actually what it appears to be?

 

Yum.  Just, yum.  What a banquet of an idea, shimpy.   All sorts of shimmery images came to mind, as the House itself resolved into a bare, deserted spot on the waterfront.  The place where no one goes, not even those looking to die...

 

Hey. The coin.  Have we seen the seemingly dying (who may or may not exist) pass that same coin on to Ja'qen?  Could it really be the toll paid to Charon?  Is its meaning -- known to all Braavosi, but not Arya -- that the bearer chooses to die, here and now? Thus, "Valar morghulis"?  

 

Ja'qen in his first incarnation at the door, refused to accept the coin from Arya.  Perhaps not to test her, but because he knew she did not know its import?  Which is in fact not,  "I wanna be an assassin," but, "Hi: I come to die"?  Instead he followed her, and saw her fighting to hang onto life.  Before he then made himself known to her, the very sight of him (Braavosi bogeyman?), scared off the kids in the alleyway.   

 

I realize that Ja'qen would know Arya didn't know the import of the coin, and that he gave it to her only after first asking her if she wanted to accompany him back to Braavos, to learn to be an assassin.  I dunno, just that shimpy's great speculation got me turned in a different direction -- maybe spinning my wheels, though!

[Llywela]

in the unlikely event that Arya doesn't flunk out of Third Person/Non-person school this weekend.  Or get "sent down," as the Brits say.

psst: getting 'sent down' doesn't actually mean 'flunk out'. It means to be convicted of a crime and sent to prison - the prisoner in the dock has to go down from the dock to the holding cells below the courtroom before being transferred, hence someone who has been convicted is sent down. Flunking out is...I'm not sure we've got a slang term. I'd just say fail.

 

Thanks to all for joining in the Arya spec! I just found myself wondering where her story might be going, which led me to wonder what she'd be taking away from the season.

[Pallas]

Twice in the last two years I placed this spec: the season will end with some stupendous supernatural feat.  Season five really has been focused on the supernatural.  And if ever a season needed a big finish, it's this one.  But what?

 

In seasons three and four I predicted a resurrection; that was before the Brotherhood Without Agents shuffled off the scene.  Not saying they won't be back, only that it would be a very sloppy trick to sneak them back into the story now -- like a plant in the audience -- just to pull off that trick.  Even so, a visit to Bran in the root cellar might be welcome. The new length of his useless legs, alone, would qualify as incredible, and we know he's probably due to come into yet more powers. But I think the focus of the finale will be divided between Winterfell/King's Landing/Mereen.

 

King's Landing:  I would not consider the reanimation of this Mountain -- who already looked like a Mountainstein -- to fill the bill.  Even if he SMASHED his way through King's Landing like King Kong, and gently seized Cersei in his paw.  Even if a squadron of bi-planes appeared on the scene, to defeat him.

 

Mereen:  Dany and Co., now that the band is back together (or rather, once the band is back together!), will work with the dragons, probably letting Drogon whip the other two into line.  Tyrion will be rueful, as Drogon blasts fire at one of his siblings: "You'd think I'd have thought of that..." Meanwhile, Jorah's grayscale?  Revealed to Tyrion, probably, but not to Dany or Daario.  And since three of the four seasons have ended with a dragon image, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the dragon band, also reunited, take to the skies toward Westeros.  But that's just super, not supernatural.

 

So I'm afraid that the supernatural will probably be employed on Stannis's behalf.  What Melisandre’s new trick will be, I've no idea.  Not a clue.  Part of me thinks it will go as planned, and Stannis will triumph.  Part of me thinks, even if Stannis triumphs, there may be fantasy-trope CONSEQUENCES to magic gained at the cost of his soul.

 

But that would imply the existence of both justice and perhaps, a righteous deity within this story, and so far…What god of this world would punish Stannis?  The Seven do have a score to settle with him: he’s an apostate, and I’d imagine that The Maiden, the Mother and The Crone would be particularly incensed, on Shireen’s behalf.  The Old Gods might be offended by this act of obeisance to the newest god, and by the act itself, committed in their domain.  Even The Lord of Light might take umbrage with this outrage. 

 

So, Shireen.  Just because the Brotherhood -- empowered by the Lord of Light  -- can't resurrect a body not intact, doesn't mean that the Lord can't step in and show 'em all who's Lord.  Or that Melisandre's magic might go right, and then go wrong.  But just as I feel that Arya's trials are enough without her also turning into faceless assassin, I'm reluctant to see Shireen transformed into an avenger.  Wherever she is, it's a better place.  

 

And even if Stannis were to Get His after Giving Theirs to Roose and Ramsay, that would leave a void of power at Winterfell and the North.  So here’s a thought, an image I saw in the embers of what’s left of my faith in A Show.  

 

Assuming Stannis and the demon-whatever win the battle, and take Winterfell.  And assuming Sansa is still on the scene, and not escaped with Brienne.  What if Stannis does still have possession of Ned's remains, to finally be buried in the crypt?   And, Melisandre said she saw the Bolton banner lowered, but not what happened then.  What if Stannis -- grieving his daughter, and hearing from Sansa of Bran and RIckon's possible survival -- asks Sansa to raise the Stark banner over Winterfell?

 

I realize that's probably risibly naive, too elegiac, and also, too conclusive.  It doesn't sweep us toward next season, with the promise of new wonders and horrors to come.  For me, though, it would fulfill a different promise.

[stillshimpy]

I would truly love it if we see the repercussions of Stannis's actions in his choices in this next episode.  Seriously, I just can't believe that Stannis will be unscathed by all of this.  Stannis is a lot of rigid things, but he isn't a coward and he isn't weak.  I'm taking some hope that we will see something, anything, that indicates that Stannis made a sacrifice that he cannot live with in the long run.  

 

Meanwhile, Jorah's grayscale?  Revealed to Tyrion, probably, but not to Dany or Daario.  And since three of the four seasons have ended with a dragon image, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the dragon band, also reunited, take to the skies toward Westeros.  But that's just super, not supernatural.

 

I keep freaking forgetting that Jorah is perishing from a dreaded disease, by the way.  It doesn't register as real with me, for whatever reason.  Last season, when Dany banished Jorah, that felt real.  That felt like something the story had been patiently waiting to do, always having that other shoe ready to drop.  We knew Jorah had spied on Dany.  When Ser Barriston showed up, we were reminded that Jorah was nervous about Dany ever finding that out (they took some pains to have Jorah himself find out that Barriston was never present in Robert's small council meetings).  

 

So it feels weird to have to remind myself: "Oh yeah, that's right, there should be some kind of addressing of Jorah's fatal disease, that they've taken some pains to tell us is fatal in other exposition in the story.....but we have no idea what that means to Jorah at this juncture.  Is he in denial.  Will he simply be grateful that he was able to die in the service of his queen?  Does he think Dany is Divine and can cure him with her touch?"  

 

But I expect and hope we'll find out.  

 

As much as I'd like to visit Bran and King Root Dude in the Garden of Good and Elfin, it's not going to feel earned or balanced if out of nowhere we jump over to "meanwhile, in the far, far north..."     so I'm guessing no Bran until next season. 

 

Littlefinger is likely to show up in some capacity and clearly we need resolution on the Brienne and Pod story. 

[gingerella]

And even if Stannis were to Get His after Giving Theirs to Roose and Ramsay, that would leave a void of power at Winterfell and the North.  So here’s a thought, an image I saw in the embers of what’s left of my faith in A Show. 

 

Assuming Stannis and the demon-whatever win the battle, and take Winterfell.  And assuming Sansa is still on the scene, and not escaped with Brienne.  What if Stannis does still have possession of Ned's remains, to finally be buried in the crypt?   And, Melisandre said she saw the Bolton banner lowered, but not what happened then.  What if Stannis -- grieving his daughter, and hearing from Sansa of Bran and RIckon's possible survival -- asks Sansa to raise the Stark banner over Winterfell?

Pallas, this bit above I particularly loved about your post!  Although this show (I am hereby downgrading to no capital letters on a show until/unless it redeems itself tonight) rarely gives us 'feel good' moments, it has occasionally done so in the last season episode. Last season we were elated when we finally saw Arya pull that coin out of her pocket and utter those infamous words "Valor Morghoulis!" It was a stunning moment and I remember we all had goosebumps over that.  And while raising the Stark flag over Winterfell would surely be a wonderful thing to see again, I am not sure it would be as swoonworthy as Arya's moment from last year, though I do like very much if this show chooses to end again on a note of hope with a Stark heir.  They did it last season with Arya so in that context maybe I would feel like it was all worth it, don't know until/unless it happens. But here are my predictions and spitballs for the season closer, what are yours?

 

1. Boltons/The Reak Show

We are all fed the fuck up with this storyline - it reeks, pun intended - so sadly I don't think it will end here with vindication for Sansa. We all know how long Joffrey was inflicted on us and he was heaps more interesting than either Bolton has been.  The way this show goes, I have zero hope that we will kill off either Bolton or Reak, and I am so over this storyline it's not even funny.  Which means that Sansa is brought down a step lower than even we thought possible, perhaps knocked up with the spawn of satan? Maybe she finds a way to abort it?

 

2. Brienne

I feel like she will do nothing tonight, she is becoming useless, and I don't care about her as a result. Surely everyone in the area knows of Ramsey's sick ways so what the fuck is she waiting for, an engraved invitation from Sansa, "Dear Brienne, please come help, sincerely, Sansa Stark."

 

3. Night's Watch

The writers of this season's shit stew couldn't have been more OBVIOUS that Olly will either shank Jon in anger for seeming to align with the Wildlings OR Olly will shank Red Beard dude and set off a mutiny of Wildlings against the NW. Either way, it's obvious that Olly will do something stupid tonight in anger against his perception of Jon going over to the Wildlings side. And we know he's a good aim with an arrow...That said, I cannot imagine them killing off Jon Snow, he seems to have "savior of the world" written into his story DNA so I hope IF anything happens to him, it's not permanent.

 

ETA: Hmmm...maybe Davos plays a role in saving Jon's ass tonight? I mean, he's headed to CB and all, and he's a badass who also does the right thing so he and Jon would make good "brothers". I would love to see Davos hear about Shireen, decide not to go back to Stannis, and have him stay with Jon now and work beside him.

 

4. Stannis

Really have no clue here what's coming. I hate him, but I want him to prevail and stamp out every Bolton, I would be fine with Mel burning both Boltons at the stake, quite frankly. Though the fact that I want this badly points to it not happening, see first point above.

 

5. Dorne

I think at best we'll see a royal sendoff of Jamie, Bronn, Myrcella and her Prince on a ship back to KL. Not much more to say there unless Elaria tries to kill Jamie or Myrcella one last time and Doran kills her off.  Bronn might bail at the last minute to save his "show me your tits" snake girlfriend, but that would be out of character for Bronn, so no, I think he will accompany them back to KL.

 

6. KL: The Sparrow Show

This whole thing is so out of character for Cersei, so I have no idea what will happen. She would never have been stupid enough to support a group who would so obviously turn on her so I'm at a loss here. If she did confess I don't think it'd be her sexing it up with Jaime, probably only her cousin fucking escapades. I could see the Sparrows arresting Jamie as soon as he arrives back in KL, and isolating him and getting him to confess to sister fucking because they will tell him Cersei already confessed, thus tricking him into confessing the worst of their crimes, and, well I don't know what the Sparrows actually do with infidels...do they kill them?

 

Wow, I am tired thinking about this.

 

ETA: Wouldn't it be awesome if Shireen was a Targ and walked out of burning and set fire to Mel instead?  I know, there is no way Shireen is a Targ, she is a Baratheon, but still, it would be delicious, wouldn't it?

Edited June 14, 2015 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

It would be sort of delightful if rather than having Ollie go all Stabbity McKiller Kid on someone, there was a conversation that proved illuminating, while also allowing for character development.  
 

I'm not actually trying to be a smartass either, just....wouldn't it be great if after a full season's buildup all that happened in Olly achieving character growth by understanding  Jon's position and what the White Walkers actually mean to the rest of the world?  I doubt we will get it, but sometimes it is okay for a story to just forgo the obvious action-oriented, paying off of the glower-of-foreshadowing.  Here's hoping.  

 

Pretty obviously Mother's Mercy will have something to do with the seven and the story in King's Landing.  Cersei will likely confess  and be pardoned, or sent to a nunnery (I really like this notion, because Cersei, the forced Nun would be a howl).  

 

I'm assuming poor damned Brienne will die trying to free Sansa.  Brienne is likable and therefore doomed.  

 

Okay, so in more serious speculation:  Remember Dany's backstory, that explained why she talked about being Daenery's Storm Born, of the Blood of Old Valeryia.  

 

Maybe being of the blood of old Valeryia has something to do with a cure for Grey Scale?  After all, they send the stone men there fore  reason, right? Plus, her son was born with scales, or wings some other "sounds like he was a dragon" type of stuff going on, so perhaps she's got some natural cure within her?  I really don't know how that would manifest, but Mother's Mercy....Mother of Dragons... Dany does something merciful for Jorah?  

Edited June 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

That would be thrilling, shimpy!  Both the idea that Jon might sit down and have a good talk talk with Olly, and that Dany might have or be a cure for greyscale.  I'd completely forgotten that Rhogo (well, was named Rhogo -- I hope I've now remembered that right) was born scaly.  On the Complete Mysteries thread, White Stumbler was wondering about the connection between greyscale and dragons.  

 

Dany as mother of dragons of course frees the Drogon siblings.  Dany was also known as Mother to the people of Yunkai: is that true of Mereen, as well? In which case, the mercy may be...less than?...after the attack in the coliseum.  

 

Other (actual) mothers alive in the story...damn few. A Show is harder on mothers than it is on horses. Ellaria, Gilly, Olenna, Cersei, Serise.  Does Serise revenge Shireen?  Or does Melisandre give birth and death again?

[gingerella]

I don't think Serise deserves any mercy or resolution re: Shireen because up until the poor kid was engulfed in flames, she was all for it. Bitch.

[stillshimpy]

I just literally said exactly this to the gang elsewhere, as we try to figure out where we go from here:  

 

I'm starting to feel like if Sansa and Jon are actually fine, then the show is fucking with me on purpose and why am I letting them?

 

I mean, for real. If they kill a character and the entire audience reacts, cries, shrieks and feels numb afterward....well that's telling a hard-hitting story and that is part of the narrative bargain that people have made.

 

If they just killed or blinded most of the likable cast -- and used the fate of Benjen to pull off one of them -- and everyone turns out to be all right? Sansa magically lopes away on unbroken legs and Ramsay with his trained pack of murder dogs can't track her or the guy nicknamed Smell , for Pete's sake. Jon is brought back just like Jon, but no longer annoyingly attached to the group of corrupt monks in the North and Jaqen says, "I hope you learned a less there, here's your 20.20 back" ....then that's a story fucking with everyone just to make them cry and shriek and wail.

 

And that's officially into fucking with people for the fun of fucking with people territory.  That's treating me like their emotional lab rat, thanks ever so.  

 

I'm not going to decide today how I feel about that possibility today, because I'm still at the "That makes me livid" stage in the process.  Tell a story with a lot of emotional impact and I react?  Fair play to you, Show.  Tell a story designed to gut me and then try to play off as if it was for funsies?  No.  That is not fair play.  

 

So for the moment, where I go from here is to a class and hopefully I'll shake off the "I am far less delighted with the notion that maybe the show was just screwing with the lot of us and characters that appeared to die onscreen are okay!"  than most seem to be and that's why.  

[DirewolfPup]

I'll be in the camp of Jon-Snow-is-dead-dead. I don't think he's coming back.

 

For Sansa, they left it intentionally vague. I am on the side of "alive," but we're not sure that's a good thing or a bad thing. Brienne finally did something she said she'd do in killing Stannis. Maybe her bad luck is turning around, and she'll be able to save Sansa, too.  Or she's dead, and that might be okay since Ramsey would hunt her down and mutilate her.

[ChocButterfly]

But Shimpy, they didn't actually showed Sansa's death. And many viewers, like my parents, didn't actually see anything ominous about their jump. I thought they had kind of jumped to their deaths, but then my parents were so sure they were only running away, that I was convinced the show wouldn't left something so ambiguous if they were actually going to show her dead next season.

 

On Jon, I know it may be wishful thinking, but there must be a reason why Melissandre is at the Wall. There must be a reason of why they showed Thoros resurrecting Beric. Think about it, neither character were important and they haven't appeared again, so the Beric resurrection thing was only to show us it was possible. Melissandre was surprised, she clearly doesn't have that power... yet. But that doesn't mean she wouldn't try it, since she has nothing else to lose and since it's clear Stannis was no fucking Chosen One. On the other hand, I'm very glad the LoL decided to punish Stannis and show him, "No, I didn't ask you to burn your only innocent daughter, jerk". Maybe they'll find Thoros, or maybe Mel can do it herself. But narratively speaking it wouldn't make any sense to kill him so early and so uselessly in the story.

I'm convinced what Mel saw in the flames was a misinterpretation. So yeah, she saw the Bolton banner burned and lower and a fight in the snow; did she actually see Stannis killing the Boltons? Did she actually see the Baratheon banner on top? For all we know, she could have seen a battle with the freaking WWs! I always said Mel does have some powers, but she actually has no idea of what she is seeing. She interprets it the way it's convenient for her. I hope she gets humbled by this experience, I don't even have so much hatred for her as I did with Stannis.

 

Now the problem is, we didn't actually see Stannis death either and I really do NOT want that guy around next season.

[stillshimpy]

On Jon, I know it may be wishful thinking, but there must be a reason why Melissandre is at the Wall.

 

Yeah and if they hadn't just set it up to be a cliffhanger for a full fucking year, maybe I'd be fine with that.  If we had to wait a week to see, that's telling a story.  Your parents apparently thought they jumped into water, Choc, so with no offense to them, I'm not sure they absorbed the "They just jumped a greater distance than literally just killed another character on-screen" of the entire thing.  For all I know, they are dead right and Sansa is just fine.  But Miranda had died less than fifteen screen seconds earlier from the a slightly lesser height.  So I don't know.  

 

What I do know is that either way, on any of those?  Setting people up to waiting a year to find out is just fucking with your audience and using narrative cheats to try and sustain a story. 

 

When an author or series is reduced to that, it's time to wrap it up.  I got home from my class and I admit, no longer angry on any level.  I'm not sure I really care any longer.  I am pretty sure that I'm a little tired of the show screwing with me.  

 

The thing that really got to me was that hideous and bait and switch they used to pull it off, because again, things I suspect are in the series vs. the book are at play and that didn't feel like "This was the ploy they used to lure Jon to his demise..." within the story, it was the "this is the ploy the story is using so as to sucker punch the audience."   I have a feeling that the books likely long since came to something resembling a resolution on the Benjen thing.  I think that was the series pulling that because they writers know the audience sometimes wonders, "Wait, but what happened to Benjen??"  

Edited June 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

When an author or series is reduced to that, it's time to wrap it up...  I'm not sure I really care any longer.  I am pretty sure that I'm a little tired of the show screwing with me. 

Seconded. The show used Benjen Stark to screw with us! Just to hammer home the true nihilism of it all. I like narrative works that paint in shades of gray. It is becoming impossible to be very invested in something that is, as Sansa said, either terrible or boring.

[stillshimpy]

Plus, they showed Benjen in the previews, so that I personally got to spend the entire episode all, "Oh my god!! They are finally going to tell us what happened to Benjen!!"  which...don't get me wrong....I figured it was going to be something horrible and likely, the poor dude long since died. I guess I had a vain hope that he'd wander in the Root Cellar and hang out with Bran (really, I did) , but mostly I was expecting to finally learn the dude's fate.  

 

Instead, it was because the show has become the kid who likes to pull the wings off of flies. 

 

It is becoming impossible to be very invested in something that is, as Sansa said, either terrible or boring.

 

It probably didn't help that a lot of this season was boring, but yea, verily.  

[gingerella]

If they kill a character and the entire audience reacts, cries, shrieks and feels numb afterward....well that's telling a hard-hitting story and that is part of the narrative bargain that people have made.

 

If they just killed or blinded most of the likable cast -- and used the fate of Benjen to pull off one of them -- and everyone turns out to be all right? Sansa magically lopes away on unbroken legs and Ramsay with his trained pack of murder dogs can't track her or the guy nicknamed Smell , for Pete's sake. Jon is brought back just like Jon, but no longer annoyingly attached to the group of corrupt monks in the North and Jaqen says, "I hope you learned a less there, here's your 20.20 back" ....then that's a story fucking with everyone just to make them cry and shriek and wail.

shimp, as I said at the other place to the above, it feels like the show and its showrunners are treating us viewers as if we are a character in the actual show now. Fucking with us to see how far they can push us before we break, then gut us in horrible, awful, soul depleting ways so that we too cry, shriek and moan for it to all be over once and for all. Don't get me wrong, I don't want our band of brethren to  disband, but I also am at a loss as to why I/we should even give a shit about this show anymore IF indeed Jon is dead, Sansa is dead, and Arya is really blind.  So we root for Tyrion & Varys until they too are disposed of?  Like you all, I feel that whatever was fucked with in the TV vs. Books this season has pushed this story into territory it can no longer recover from, and not for the better either. I feel like the TV - as in many TV shows - has been bastardized to the point of no return now.  Are we wrong about this? I hope we are, but I don't see how we are right now.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, it really sounds like several of us are on the same page on this.  I would hate to lose you guys, and we have had an insane amount of fun together. 

 

However, here's something that Stumbler and I talked about five years ago, about why would we would even try to do this:  that it was a fun challenge to see if we could basically reverse engineer the source material from what was on the screen.  We were having a blast doing it.  

 

But I think I've come to the conclusion that the only way to continue having fun with this is to actually find out what is missing from the screen, because this season has not been good and it really hasn't afforded much fun.  Sure, we've made each other laugh, but it's just...we started this to figure out what the backstory was and where the story was heading.  Where the story has headed has been increasingly dark, a lot of the time. 

 

It's hard to speculate when it boils down to "Hey, I think more grim shit will happen, how about you?"  and I think the only way for me to sustain interest in even continuing to watch is to watch the huge backlog of interviews.  To find out what I have missed.  Where I was right, where I was so wrong it is just insanely laughable.  To find out if I like the same characters I think I do on the screen.  If maybe the monsters are  little more interesting with a little more shading.    

 

Basically I'm saying that I think it is time for this particular member of the Unsullied to go ahead and get my balls back.  I think I've personally reached the end of this road for me.  If anybody wants to go over the wall with me, to figure see the shit we've missed?  I'd like that.  If not, I think it's time for me to go ahead and watch from beyond the spitball wall.  Read the books, watch the extras, find out what has made this story so popular.  

 

Five years is not a bad run to sustain interest. 

 

I'm sorry, guys.  

 

But I think it's time to end my watch.    I promised elsewhere that I wouldn't do anything today that I couldn't undo tomorrow and I'll stick with that through the end of the day.  That's just where I'm at with it though and I don't think it's going to change this time. 

Edited June 15, 2015 by stillshimpy

[gingerella]

I am not ready to make that concrete a decision, and I hope others will wait a bit and see how they feel in a few weeks, you included shimp.

[ChocButterfly]

Don't get me wrong, I don't want our band of brethren to  disband, but I also am at a loss as to why I/we should even give a shit about this show anymore IF indeed Jon is dead, Sansa is dead, and Arya is really blind.

Oh, no, not with Arya. I agree with what you say about Jon and Sansa, but Arya totally deserved her punishment. She tried to fool Jaquen and the God of many faces; she used the Order for her own selfish reasons; she disobeyed her bosses and didn't go through with her assignment, thereby probably making an innocent man's family destitute for life; she used without permission and without being ready one of the "faces". There was so much she did wrong, so many rules she broke and completely disrespected a whole belief system just to take revenge. Don't get me wrong, I get why she did it and I'd probably had done the same thing, but that doesn't mean she gets a pass on the consequences. I guess being blind for some time it's not that bad a deal, considering what kind of people she's dealing with.

 

On the other hand, I'm about to think Jaqen himself is the God of Many Faces. Dude even knows what happens from afar? How so? And how did he change not only his face with that girl, but also his body?

 

Basically I'm saying that I think it is time for this particular member of the Unsullied to go ahead and get my balls back.  I think I've personally reached the end of this road for me.  If anybody wants to go over the wall with me, to figure see the shit we've missed?  I'd like that.  If not, I think it's time for me to go ahead and watch from beyond the spitball wall.  Read the books, watch the extras, find out what has made this story so popular. 

 

Five years is not a bad run to sustain interest.

 

I'm sorry, guys. 

 

But I think it's time to end my watch.    I promised elsewhere that I wouldn't do anything today that I couldn't undo tomorrow and I'll stick with that through the end of the day.  That's just where I'm at with it though and I don't think it's going to change this time.

Yeah, I get it. I'm not even that pissed off at the finale, but I'm also considering going Un-Unsullied, if only because having to wait for an entire year, and the possibility of being majorly disappointed, I cannot take. I seriously need to know whether Jon and Sansa really died.

 

But then, what if after I brake my solemn Unsullied vow to get some answers I do not get any?? What if this is exactly how it happens in the Books, or is actually worst in the Books? What if the story is so much different, than being spoiled or not won't make any change because is basically a whole new story by now??

 

Too many uncertainties. I hate uncertainties, that's the reason why I never watched Lost, I hate shows that forever drag their mysteries.

[stillshimpy]

Just told Stumbler in a PM that signs that it is time to leave the party include:  When you're only source of hope for the next season includes things like: Maybe the raped, beaten, almost-certainly-knocked up teenager won't have died in the fall...and will elude her husband, who will skin her alive....literally if found.  

 

Maybe the guy who was killed by the very group he considered family will be brought back to life by the witch who burned a nine-year-old alive last week.  

 

And then you add in "and on top of that, you won't know anything for a full year".   

 

I'll be around for the rest of the day and tomorrow begins my sullying.  Thanks guys :0-) 

[Mya Stone]

Hi all...in light of these new developments, I'm asking that you all go and cast a vote in this poll. 

Thank you! :) 

[ChocButterfly]

Just told Stumbler in a PM that signs that it is time to leave the party include:  When you're only source of hope for the next season includes things like: Maybe the raped, beaten, almost-certainly-knocked up teenager won't have died in the fall...and will elude her husband, who will skin her alive....literally if found.  

 

Maybe the guy who was killed by the very group he considered family will be brought back to life by the witch who burned a nine-year-old alive last week.  

 

And then you add in "and on top of that, you won't know anything for a full year".   

 

I'll be around for the rest of the day and tomorrow begins my sullying.  Thanks guys :0-) 

Damn, when you put it that way...!

I think this might be it for me as well, but my main problem is the waiting for an entire fucking year!! I'll let you guys know, let's see if I can make it at least a week more without reading spoilers.

 

Either way, Unsullied or Sullied, I have the impression I'm going to be equally dissapointed.

 

Edited to add: one thing is for sure tough, I ain't reading those books! Too long and I refused to be doubly dissapointed after spending considerably more time and effort reading them.

Edited June 15, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[gingerella]

It is interesting to me that Jon is more like Ned Stark than any of Ned's own children really. He stands up for what he believes is the right and honorable thing to do, above all else, even when it puts him in deep shit as with his current fate amongst an angry NWs.  It seems also that we're all pretty clear that Jon is not really Ned's bio son, but nonetheless, he ended up being more of Ned redux than even Robb to some extent. Robb always was a bit aloof, Jon has that softer, more emotional side that we've seen. Maybe that side is from Lyanna if she is indeed his mother?

 

That said, I did find Sansa's leap off the turret to be very Starkian too. I mean, this woman was an annoying as fuck tween when we first met her. She believed in fairy tales and princes and living happily ever after with Joffrey and floating around KL in chiffon scented with unicorn farts and fairy glitter shit. And she has had the worst time of it, and finally, FINALLY, F.I.N.A.L.L.Y. she took a stand last night, and Theon took a stand last nigh with her, his true sister, and they literally took a leap of faith. As Sansa said, she'd rather die now while she is still her, than wait to be dismantled bit by bit like Theon allowed for himself. That said, it's easy to say what a useless sack of shit Theon became as Reek, but he was the victim of terrorization through mental and physical torture. So I have to say while I don't appreciate him not saving Sansa sooner, at least something inside of him was still Theon and he rose to her call ultimately. What the fate will be of that call is anyone's guess next season, but I stand by my original thoughts from last night - she will live and run away somehow, and Theon will be killed by the dogs.  Though perhaps they wont kill Theon because he lived with them? Perhaps they feel he's one of their pack?  That would be weird and wonderful at the same time. I think at the end of the day, I'd like to see Ramsey pulled apart by his own dogs...maybe this will be it next season? It's enough with the Boltons.

 

Oh, and although they didn't show it, I hereby spit this ball that Mrs. Roose Bolton will give birth to a baby boy and Ramsey will either try or will succeed in killing him off.

Edited June 16, 2015 by gingerella

[WhiteStumbler]

RE: Jon Snow -- As I said after S5E02, Jon Snow's epitaph should read "Here Lies Jon Snow: Too Much a Stark to Be Made a Stark"

[gingerella]

RE: Jon Snow -- As I said after S5E02, Jon Snow's epitaph should read "Here Lies Jon Snow: Too Much a Stark to Be Made a Stark"

Indeed WS, indeed. You summed me up quite perfectly, thank you!  Do you also see the Stark finally coming through Sansa? I did. I took her stance last night as she was willing to be brave finally, and stand up for herself. To me, she was a bit Ned like and a bit Cat like last night in facing off with crazypants Miranda, and then jumping to whatever fate she jumped to with Theon. I felt like at last she 'woke up' and saw that she could indeed have some agency over her life despite terrible odds. Here's hoping she makes it far far away, otherwise death will be her best option.

 

The more distance I get from last night, the more questions I have, but it's too late, and tomorrow is another day ~