Poldark: Now, Then, and Before (the Books, the Original Series, and the Remake)

[Summer]

Regarding the casting of George:  my complaint is that he and the actor who plays Dr. Enys look a lot alike and I confused them a few times, they look so similar to each other.  

[duVerre]

 

my complaint is that he and the actor who plays Dr. Enys look a lot alike

 

I can always tell George ... I just look for the very, very languid version of Hugh Grant. But I have a problem at first glance just like you do. I often have the first impression that Dr. Enys is Francis and vice-versa. They are all of the same type -- small, regular features. Is there any doubt that Dr. Enys could play Francis and Francis could play Dr. Enys?

[Llywela]

I can always tell George ... I just look for the very, very languid version of Hugh Grant. But I have a problem at first glance just like you do. I often have the first impression that Dr. Enys is Francis and vice-versa. They are all of the same type -- small, regular features. Is there any doubt that Dr. Enys could play Francis and Francis could play Dr. Enys?

There certainly are a lot of interchangeable actors in this production! Clearly the intent was for Ross to stand out...

[duVerre]

 

There certainly are a lot of interchangeable actors in this production! Clearly the intent was for Ross to stand out...

 

I agree. And it shows no faith in the character of Ross Poldark, who should stand out because of the things he does and believes. Some viewers may enjoy the cut of Aidan Turner's jib, so to speak, but in the end that's not the central issue. These actors play characters, not catalogue models.

Edited August 4, 2015 by duVerre

[skyways]

No wonder the articles keep talking about his abs since there's nobody else to talk about besides Demelza. I'm with you Llywela. In the end I did not care for this version and it's not as if I'm a so-called rabid Ellis apologist. This story as presented by this production was overall dull.

Edited August 3, 2015 by skyways

[Nampara]

In the end I did not care for this version and it's not as if I'm a so-called rabid Ellis apologist. This story as presented by this production was overall dull.

 

I have very fond memories of Poldark 1975, and I've previously commented in this thread about some differences between the two adaptations. I try not to think of it as an outright competition between the two versions, especially when that would mean comparing a set of eight episodes with a set of 29 episodes, with the latter set probably having been mulled over and internalized for years. One distinct impression I do have at the moment is that watching the 2015 version is, for me, more like actually being present with these characters in 18th century Cornwall. It's a combination of the more intimate directing style (especially by Bazalgette), the cinematography, and the music, I suppose.

 

However, I doubt that the current adaptation will be able to match what for me and my brother was one of the absurd highlights of the original version: the coaching of Jud to be a witness against Ross at his trial. It was a superb "foole" at his best. I'm relying on 40-year-old memories here, but the scene included stuff like this:

 

"I dearly luvved me muther, sir. 'What's become a ye, Jud?' she'd say. 'What's become a ye, Jud my son!'"

 

[Guiding him away from his memories and back to the testimony:]

 

"Captain Poldark roused you."

 

"Cap'n Poldark rowsed me."

 

"And he said ..."

 

"Oi dunno wot 'e said!"

 

"He said there were pickings for all! He told you there were pickings for all! Again."

 

"Cap'n Poldark rowsed me."

 

"There was a wreck."

 

"Thare wuz a wreck ... an' thare wuz pickins fer all!"

Edited August 4, 2015 by Nampara

[Llywela]

I try not to think of outright comparisons between the two adaptations either, since both necessarily contract the story and are designed to suit the narrative styles and production technology of the time they were made. It is impossible to avoid some degree of comparison, however, especially with regard to the specific choices each adaptation makes, some very similar and some very different - not to mention the cast. My overall verdict remains that P15 is much prettier to watch and does a lovely job with Ross and Demelza's story, on the whole, but that P75 has more engaging characters and does a better job with the wider story. P75 tells the story of Poldark as a whole - P15 is only really interested in the Ross-Demelza romance. In the books, Ross is the central protagonist in a story whose scope is much wider than him, and P75 plays him as such, allows the story that wider scope; P15 recharacterises Ross as the hero of his own story, which is a different thing entirely, and retains a very narrow focus on him, to the detriment of the wider story. Neither adaptation does full justice to the books, which could do with a good six episodes per book, really - not that the books themselves are perfect, there are plenty of inconsistencies and weaknesses, but they are nonetheless gripping to read and populated by sharply drawn characters and meticulously researched historical detail. I do feel that P75, for all its faults, gives a better flavour of the books than P15 does, for all its beauty - I'm keenly aware, reading the episode threads, that unspoiled viewers are coming away with a very different impression of the story and characters than they should, which is not how a 'faithful' literary adaptation is supposed to work, and it pains me that I'm not even allowed to say, 'just so you know, this part of the story has been altered considerably, that's why it doesn't make much sense, the characters aren't this stupid and one-dimensional in the source material.'

 

Basically, if I had to choose between a story with a strong lead but one-dimensional support, and a story with both a strong lead and a strong support, I know which one I'd pick, however old-fashioned! If I could combine the strengths of each adaptation into one and give it more screentime per book, I'd be happy...

[Milz]

What puzzles me is that P15 used 8 episodes to cover the first two books (Poldark and Demelza) while P75 adapted more books per series AND had time to develop the other characters and their stories with the same number of episodes.

[Llywela]

What puzzles me is that P15 used 8 episodes to cover the first two books (Poldark and Demelza) while P75 adapted more books per series AND had time to develop the other characters and their stories with the same number of episodes.

P75 had approximately the same number of episodes per book as P15 - they adapted four books in 16 episodes for season one, with books one-two covered in the first eight episodes, so no different to P15. Those episodes were shorter, however - 48 minutes as opposed to the 58 minutes P15 has, so they had considerably less screentime per book. The difference is all in the narrative style. P15 uses very short, rapidly intercut scenes and a lot of silent montages to move the plot forward - effective in terms of modern-style rapid plot movement, but it keeps many of the characters at arm's length, so that we're seeing them without really getting to know them, so to speak - whereas P75 tended to have longer scenes with more dialogue, so wasn't as fast-paced or pretty to watch, but conveyed the same amount of plot while also allowing viewers to get to know the characters better as individuals. Also, P15 has focused more closely on Ross and Demelza's relationship, covering the early stages of their marriage in far more detail than P75 did and also inventing numerous scenes for them entirely - the more time spent with them, the less time available to spend with other characters. Personally I think a happy medium could have been achieved - development of both the Ross-Demelza relationship and the other characters and storylines around them. Alas, it wasn't to be.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

P75 had approximately the same number of episodes per book as P15 - they adapted four books in 16 episodes for season one, with books one-two covered in the first eight episodes, so no different to P15. Those episodes were shorter, however - 48 minutes as opposed to the 58 minutes P15 has, so they had considerably less screentime per book. The difference is all in the narrative style. P15 uses very short, rapidly intercut scenes and a lot of silent montages to move the plot forward - effective in terms of modern-style rapid plot movement, but it keeps many of the characters at arm's length, so that we're seeing them without really getting to know them, so to speak - whereas P75 tended to have longer scenes with more dialogue, so wasn't as fast-paced or pretty to watch, but conveyed the same amount of plot while also allowing viewers to get to know the characters better as individuals. Also, P15 has focused more closely on Ross and Demelza's relationship, covering the early stages of their marriage in far more detail than P75 did and also inventing numerous scenes for them entirely - the more time spent with them, the less time available to spend with other characters. Personally I think a happy medium could have been achieved - development of both the Ross-Demelza relationship and the other characters and storylines around them. Alas, it wasn't to be.

 

P15 (at least the one we watched in the US) ended with Julia's death: that's Demelza only. Demelza begins and ends with Julia. Jeremy Poldark introduces Caroline and has Ross' trial, which we didn't see in P15 in the US.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Milz

[Llywela]

P15 (at least the one we watched in the US) ended with Julia's death: that's Demelza only. Demelza begins and ends with Julia. Jeremy Poldark introduces Caroline and has Ross' trial, which we didn't see in P15 in the US.

Yes, I know. Isn't that what I just said? The eight episodes of season one P15 covers books one and two - except that it pulls its cliffhanger ending forward from Jeremy Poldark, book three, which is where Ross's arrest takes place. That's what you've just seen, the season ending with Julia's death and Ross's arrest.

 

Season one of P75 covered books one to four in 16 episodes. The first eight episodes of the show covered books one and two, the second eight episodes covered books three and four.

 

So both versions cover books one and two, Ross Poldark and Demelza, in eight episodes. For P15 those were 58-minute episodes, for P75 they were 48-minute episodes, but each covered two books in eight episodes.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Yes, I know. Isn't that what I just said? The eight episodes of season one P15 covers books one and two - except that it pulls its cliffhanger ending forward from Jeremy Poldark, book three, which is where Ross's arrest takes place. That's what you've just seen, the season ending with Julia's death and Ross's arrest.

 

Season one of P75 covered books one to four in 16 episodes. The first eight episodes of the show covered books one and two, the second eight episodes covered books three and four.

 

So both versions cover books one and two, Ross Poldark and Demelza, in eight episodes. For P15 those were 58-minute episodes, for P75 they were 48-minute episodes, but each covered two books in eight episodes.

 

My mistake!

 

But it still doesn't explain why P15 did such a piss poor job on secondary character development.

[Llywela]

But it still doesn't explain why P15 did such a piss poor job on secondary character development.

Like I said, the difference is all in the stylistic choices made. P15 focuses intently on Ross and Demelza's story to the exclusion of all others, not just delving deep into the source material but expanding on it, while other storylines are portrayed only inasmuch as they need to be because they impact on that central storyline. The adaptation recharacterises the entire story as a romance, which is not how Graham's Poldark novels were written. And having made the decision to approach the story as a romance, Horsfield then made significant changes to numerous sub-plots and characters in order to strengthen her romantic vision.

 

Basically, Winston Graham wrote his Poldark series as an exploration of the people and culture in a specific place at a specific time, using his characters as a window into that place and time; there is a reason all the books in the series are sub-titled 'A Novel of Cornwall'. He writes with a broad scope, with romance only one of the themes explored, while Ross and Demelza are his central protagonists rather than the heroes of the story. P75 mirrors that approach, placing Ross front and centre as the protagonist through which to tell a story with a much wider scope. It places great emphasis on character interaction as a vehicle for moving the plot forward, which means we get to spend a lot of quality time with the characters, getting to know them as individuals.

 

Horsfield's adaptation loses that breadth of scope. Her vision of the story is a tightly focused romance, all other sub-plots squeezed in around the edges, and grudgingly at that. To her, the leads are the heroes of the story, with the other characters existing purely to further their central plot, rather than having any dramatic purpose in their own right. It is a very different approach. And she makes great use of silent montages as a vehicle for moving the plot forward, which means we get plenty of fast-paced plot movement but not much quality time with the characters, which imo weakens the story considerably, however pretty it is to watch.

 

So, yeah. Partly it's to do with the narrative style taken by each version, but also it's to do with the separate vision each version has of the story and where they choose to place the emphasis.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Well, Horsfield will be in trouble adapting the remaining books if she choose to focus on the Ross-Demelza romance, because Poldark is so much more than Ross and Demelza.

[Nidratime]

Horsfield's adaptation loses that breadth of scope. Her vision of the story is a tightly focused romance, all other sub-plots squeezed in around the edges, and grudgingly at that.

 

 

What's ironic is that I find the romance weaker in this version. I honestly don't feel that Ross is in love with Demelza even though he's called her the great love of his life at least twice. But I *do* feel his attraction, if not love for Elizabeth.

 

In the 1970's version, I felt a greater conflict within him. It was like Elizabeth was up on some pedestal -- and she even looked like a statue with her alabaster skin and light blond hair -- while the day to day living and loving went on with the down-to-earth Demelza.

 

Maybe because they've made Elizabeth so much more likeable and approachable in this current version, there's less of a contrast between the women and less of a contrast in the feelings Ross would have towards them individually.

 

Well, Horsfield will be in trouble adapting the remaining books if she choose to focus on the Ross-Demelza romance, because Poldark is so much more than Ross and Demelza.

 

 

Plus, there's a major incident that puts it all into question, and this is why I'm scratching my head over Horsfield's approach here.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Nidratime

[skyways]

Yes I see what you are saying. I first picked up the books thinking/expecting a nice romantic story. But the books are more than that. Frankly I was surprised PBS was marketing is a romance (I think they too may have been confused by visions of the old series as well) That  P75one could be described as a romance (among other things involved) because of the way Ross/Demelza developed the marriage on screen with that adaptation's strong characterization. They were loving but not exactly lovey-dovey in the books but P75 made them explosive together.

This one despite being marketed as a romance/love triangle, ended up shooting itself in the foot in that the love triangle 'NEVER' materialized and Ross/Demelza after the lovely episode 4, somewhat fizzled. I don't know but that's my take.

Also with the extra time Horsefield's adaptation had over the old series, what EXACTLY did she achieve with the time?

 

 

Llywela, I agree the episode thread is somewhat hilarious. So much head scratching and what the hays!!  Yet one can't jump in and shout 'This is why you are confused.................in the books........blabla........I find it amusing.

Edited August 4, 2015 by skyways

[Milz]

 

Maybe because they've made Elizabeth so much more likeable and approachable in this current version, there's less of a contrast between the women and less of a contrast in the feelings Ross would have towards them individually.

 

 

Porcelain and earthenware is how they are described in the book, iirc.

 

Also with the extra time Horsefield's adaptation had over the old series, what EXACTLY did she achieve with the time?

 

 

Ways to show off Aidan Turner's body.

 

Anyway, if Horsfield wanted to mess around with the characters, she should have spent more time developing Verity into an indispensable member of the Trenwith Poldarks because she was highly competent, very responsible and able to manage Trenwith far better than Francis or Elizabeth ever could, not because she's a  homely spinister and aglorified maid-of-all-work. In other words, make Verity the Poldark who should have inherited the works but didn't because she was a woman. And kudos to Ruby Bentall for giving life to a character that isn't written with much life at all. I think Verity is the scene stealer in P15.

[Llywela]

Anyway, if Horsfield wanted to mess around with the characters, she should have spent more time developing Verity into an indispensable member of the Trenwith Poldarks because she was highly competent, very responsible and able to manage Trenwith far better than Francis or Elizabeth ever could, not because she's a  homely spinister and aglorified maid-of-all-work. In other words, make Verity the Poldark who should have inherited the works but didn't because she was a woman. And kudos to Ruby Bentall for giving life to a character that isn't written with much life at all. I think Verity is the scene stealer in P15.

That's an interesting point, because I've been struck by the response to Verity by unspoiled viewers in the episode threads, who have presumed from what's been shown in P15 that Verity as an unmarried daughter of the family is basically being held against her will as a kind of unpaid slave and the family won't let her go because they don't want to lose her slave labour. Which isn't the dynamic at all in the books, where Verity has gradually assumed more and more responsibility around the house just because that's who she is, not because anyone has forced it on her against her will. She is a natural manager and Trenwith is bereft without her when she goes, but she isn't a servant, nor is her value as a housekeeper the reason the family are against her marriage to Blamey. So the message of that story doesn't seem to have been clearly conveyed at all - and yet that sub-plot came off well compared with some of the others!

 

I think part of the trouble is that Horsfield messed about with the characterisations in order to service the romantic dynamic she wanted to portray with the Elizabeth-Ross-Demelza triangle, but she didn't think through what those altered characterisations would do to the other storylines.

 

I mean, really, the way some of the unspoiled viewers see George as some kind of woobie destined for redemption is as weird to me as if someone watched Pride and Prejudice and came out of it feeling sorry for Wickham, seeing him as someone who only ever wanted to be loved and was sorry for what he'd done really...

 

There was a scene I remember in episode 8 that epitomised to me the difficulty Horsfield has had in translating some of the more internal sequences to the screen, and her disregard for character integrity in the process. It's that scene when Demelza arrives at Trenwith when the family are ill, finding the place cold and empty, and then Agatha comes out onto the top stairs to talk to her. In the book, Demelza looks around the cold, empty Trenwith and realises for the first time what Verity's marriage has meant to the family, what a loss she is to the household - it's a realisation she comes to all on her own, a moment of insight as she realises that she's been so intent on what she wanted for Verity that she never stopped to think there was another side to the story, that her actions have had a wider impact than she'd thought. Then Agatha comes out bemoaning that everyone is ill and there's no one to look after her. In P15, Horsfield has Agatha verbalise Verity's loss, and in a very spiteful, accusatory manner - so not only is that moment of realisation taken away from Demelza, but Agatha is made to look mean and unpleasant. The same information is conveyed, sure, but the manner of it is completely off. It's hard to explain why it bothered me so much, but. Well. The same scene could have had Demelza be the one to say 'you must miss Verity very much', allowing her that moment of insight, and let the rest of the scene play out as in the book - but instead Horsfield's approach is heavy-handed, she couldn't allow Demelza that insight because she wanted to heap greater martyrdom upon her, and sacrificed Agatha to that cause. And all those tiny moments mount up and build to an overall mischaracterisation of too many characters.

 

Heavy-handed actually describes Horsfield's approach to a lot of the story.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

After the first two episodes, I lowered my expectations of P15 and tried to view it with Poldark virgin eyes. Verity is the Cinderella of the story: neglected and abused because she's homely and unmarriageable and denied a marriage because the Trenwith Poldarks need a house slave (the wife killer part is merely an excuse to keep Verity as a house slave). I also got the impression that the Trenwith Poldarks thought Verity should be happy with her house slave status because she's too much of a loser to find a man. The message that Verity was a better manager than Francis or Elizabeth came off as Verity the slave. 

 

It seems that the comic relief characters such as Aunt Agatha and the Paynters are mean in P15. (I wonder how Horsfield will dramatize Jud's funeral because that showed the goofiness of the Paynters, which we haven't seen in P15. )

 

RE: George.......considering how Horsfield is handling things, I wouldn't be shocked if George is redeemed at the end of the series..

Edited August 4, 2015 by Milz

[Nidratime]

It seems that the comic relief characters such as Aunt Agatha and the Paynters are mean in P15.

 

 

Sadly, very little comic relief in this version.

 

On another topic.... I have not read any of the books, that Graham wrote after the first seven, and I really don't know the details of what happens in Stranger from the Sea, onward, but since this is a spoiler thread....

 

If I had been Graham, I would've been hard pressed not to use a potential plot development that was crying out to be exploited. I would've definitely explored a burgeoning romantic attachment between Valentine Warleggan and Clowance Poldark! Heh. Just imagine how horrified Ross and Demelza would've been. Definitely a tragic development that would've been too juicy not to dramatize. (I'm thinking that kind of thing doesn't happen or I think I would've heard about it.)

[Llywela]

If I had been Graham, I would've been hard pressed not to use a potential plot development that was crying out to be exploited. I would've definitely explored a burgeoning romantic attachment between Valentine Warleggan and Clowance Poldark! Heh. Just imagine how horrified Ross and Demelza would've been. Definitely a tragic development that would've been too juicy not to dramatize. (I'm thinking that kind of thing doesn't happen or I think I would've heard about it.)

It doesn't happen, no - but there is a brief period when Ross and Demelza are a bit concerned that it might, as both Jeremy and Clowance are friendly with Valentine (much to George's annoyance). It remains a background fear, though, as Valentine's uncertain parentage is something they never speak of - and Clowance quickly becomes involved with someone else...much to my annoyance as I really, really dislike her love interest!

 

The later books aren't as good as the early ones, but I've enjoyed them anyway, even though the only member of the next generation I've really become attached to is Geoffrey Charles, who is just lovely - he has all the best qualities of Francis and Elizabeth while lacking their flaws. I think Geoffrey Charles' slow journey toward reclaiming Trenwith as a Poldark house is one of my favourite threads in the later novels. But my favourite scene of all in those last few books is the one where Ross tells Demelza he's turned down a baronetcy and she just falls about laughing!

Edited August 4, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Here's another thing that's been bothering me...Ross's rank in the Army. In Episode 1 he isn't a "Captain" when he was at the James River (that bothers me too, and I will address it later......) And we are told he joined up to avoid some problems he had had. Additionally, Joshua Poldark's financial state is depressed so i don't think they could have bought a commission for Ross. So how did he rise in the ranks from lieutenant at the James River to Captain when he returns to Cornwall?

 

Here's my beef with the James River......If Ross was at the James River in 1781, he would have been there when General Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown, which effectively ended the war.

[Nidratime]

Maybe, when he managed to get off "the battlefield" alive, they promoted him.

[Llywela]

Here's another thing that's been bothering me...Ross's rank in the Army. In Episode 1 he isn't a "Captain" when he was at the James River (that bothers me too, and I will address it later......) And we are told he joined up to avoid some problems he had had. Additionally, Joshua Poldark's financial state is depressed so i don't think they could have bought a commission for Ross. So how did he rise in the ranks from lieutenant at the James River to Captain when he returns to Cornwall?

 

Here's my beef with the James River......If Ross was at the James River in 1781, he would have been there when General Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown, which effectively ended the war.

Hang on, I seem to recall that this is covered in book one, let me look it up...

 

Yes. Early in book one, when Francis calls to see Ross just as he's about to go examine Wheal Grace - they walk to the mine together and Ross forces himself to talk about his experiences in the war to avoid having to think or talk about Francis's engagement to Elizabeth (which of course Francis brings up later, and ends up in the water). Ross says that he was sent to America as a raw ensign after only a month of training in Ireland, that most of the fighting he saw was in the first three months, that he was wounded at the James River and was drafted to New York as a result, which meant he escaped the siege of Yorktown, and then got a bayonet cut in the face during a local skirmish while the articles of the preliminary peace were being signed.

 

Oh, and in the prologue, which is six months earlier, Joshua tells Charles that he's had a letter from Ross saying that he's in New York as part of the garrison and has recovered from his wound, that it was lucky he escaped the Yorktown siege, and that he is a captain now. So - well, I don't know enough about the war to really comment, but the impression I get from the book is that while the siege at Yorktown may have effectively ended the war, it took some time afterward for the articles of peace to be signed and all the garrisons disbanded and sent home, which is why Ross doesn't arrive back till October 1783, having been promoted during that period.

 

I'm going to guess that while Joshua was never really rich, he did have enough money to purchase Ross's commission - the gentry's notion of poverty isn't quite the same as most folks'. I mean, we're told that Joshua has left nothing for Ross but the house and two derelict mines, but Ross manages to live quite comfortably for a good few years before Wheal Leisure is even opened, never mind profitable.

 

ETA - realised you were talking more specifically about the show. Which I think fudges the details above from the book. But I guess it is still some time between the skirmish we see at the beginning and Ross arriving home - long enough for him to be promoted. Which even then could happen on merit and circumstance, not just purchase.

 

Fun fact - in the books, both Geoffrey Charles and Jeremy go on to also become Captain Poldark in their time!

Edited August 4, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Thanks for the book explanation. :-)

 

Yorktown effectively ended the war, but there were still skirmishes in New York.

[catrice2]

Can someone tell me what happens to George in the books? 

[Nampara]

Can someone tell me what happens to George in the books? 

 

How far ahead do you want to go? Basically, he stays rich, and doesn't die. He has altercations with Ross. In book 4, which is named after him, he marries Elizabeth after Francis dies. We expect to see this dramatized in Series 2.  Elizabeth and George have children, which become storyline generators in books 5-7.  George also is in and out of Parliament. An older version of him continues to have adventures in books 8-12.

[Nampara]

Some belated additional thoughts on Poldark 1975. In my very first post in this forum, I mentioned my adolescent fondness for the 1970s Poldark and especially for Angharad Rees' Demelza. (I'd link directly to the post if I could, but there doesn't appear to be a way to do that in this forum. It's back on page 2 of this thread.) Because Series 1 of Poldark 2015 has completed its U.S. airings and the Poldrums are approaching, I thought I'd watch a few episodes of Poldark 1975 for old times' sake. It's been decades since I've seen any of these; my comments here have been based on recall. I watched episodes 3, 4, 5, and 8, and also 16, even though the 2015 equivalent won't air until next year.

 

Much of the following probably has been said before, and maybe said multiple times, but these are some of my immediate reactions upon a fresh, post-2015-version viewing of some pieces of the 1975 series:

• The program has more outdoor scenes than I recalled (still not as many as the 2015 version, of course), and many of them are quite well-done. The BBC was clearly making an effort to produce a show with a more "epic," less claustrophic feel than most programs of its era. I only wish the camera work and/or the weather had cooperated to produce more skies that weren't solid white.
• The music has even less impact than I stated in my comment in the music thread here. Aside from the main theme, there's just so little of it. The 2015 score is a constant, emotionally engaging presence. Having adjusted to that pungent musical storytelling atmosphere, I missed it.
• Most of the actors playing major characters seem a few years too old for their roles. In general, they certainly look older to me than their 2015 counterparts. No doubt makeup, hair, and costuming choices had an impact, but the cast just seemed less able to pass for younger versions of themselves than today's cast. Even Rees didn't convince as a teenager. She was 26 at the time Poldark 1975 was filmed (but some sources say she was 31, which I could believe). Eleanor Tomlinson was 22 when her series was filmed.
• Keren Daniel really was portrayed as more attractive, sympathetic, and nuanced than in the new series. Prudie was much more likable and generally involved in things.
• Blamey and Verity looked like George and Martha Washington. Dr. Choake looked like Sir Isaac Newton.
• The first novel, Ross Poldark, was butchered. It wasn't simply the "shotgun marriage" story created out of thin air. The Ross-Elizabeth elopement plot point bordered on the insane, was out of character (vis-à-vis the novels, that is) for both of them, and threw the balance among the three key characters way out of whack. The entirety of the wonderful early stages of Ross and Demelza's marriage was cut out. No pilchard scene, no visit from Verity, no learning to be genteel, no first Christmas at Trenwith, and no triumphant song from Demelza. And of course no falling in love for Ross! The first book is ultimately an uplifting book. Ross and Demelza each start off at rock bottom in their respective milieus, then find each other and slowly work their way up in a very unconventional way. At the close, they are happy with each other. The equivalent chapter of Poldark 75 ends grimly, almost tragically. 
• It was heartbreaking to see Demelza weeping in despair at the end of episode 8 because she was convinced that her marriage as well as her daughter had died. (Rees was always very touching when she cried.) Ross's subsequent assurances to her were tender, but what's this? He had never told Demelza he loved her until after Julia's death? That was very wrong.
• My wife had some specific comments about the main characters and some of the action, including the fact that she hated the 1975 Elizabeth. (She did agree with me in feeling a bit sorry for Elizabeth when Ross broke off their elopement because he had decided he must wed Demelza. You know Ross is behaving terribly when Elizabeth earns sympathy from me in a "triangle" storyline!) But in the end, she just boiled it down to, "That's not my Ross Poldark." I'm afraid I had to concur for the most part with respect to those early episodes. Ross in the books and in the 2015 program marries Demelza for sex, companionship, and honor, but he also has real affection for her, and it is not surprising when it is depicted as quickly growing into love. Ross in 1975 marries a pregnancy rather than a woman. He seems largely unconcerned that poor Demelza is trying to stagger all the way to Truro to get a dangerous abortion, until he learns that the child is his. (More agonizing tears from Demelza when he catches up with her. Even in an "alternative universe" storyline, I still hate to see Demelza suffer.) Ross and Elizabeth are sucking face both immediately before Ross sleeps with Demelza and then afterward as well, and Ross tells Elizabeth that he loves her within earshot of Demelza after he tells Demelza that he will marry her. As I said, just grim.

 

[Llywela]

 

Some belated additional thoughts on Poldark 1975. In my very first post in this forum, I mentioned my adolescent fondness for the 1970s Poldark and especially for Angharad Rees' Demelza. (I'd link directly to the post if I could, but there doesn't appear to be a way to do that in this forum. It's back on page 2 of this thread.) Because Series 1 of Poldark 2015 has completed its U.S. airings and the Poldrums are approaching, I thought I'd watch a few episodes of Poldark 1975 for old times' sake. It's been decades since I've seen any of these; my comments here have been based on recall. I watched episodes 3, 4, 5, and 8, and also 16, even though the 2015 equivalent won't air until next year.

I've been slowly rewatching P75 lately - I'm nearly halfway through season 2 now - I can't say which episode I'm on though as my DVDs only have the cut-down omnibus version, 3 hours per disc with no episode breaks. (This is really annoying and I wish the series were properly available in full).

 

I've often said that I'd dearly love to combine both versions - I want to combine the cinematography and the beautiful Ross-Demelza story of P15 with the flavour and scope and more vivid all-round characterisations of P75, and throw in additional screen-time to boot so that all the various plots and sub-plots and characters can have full justice done to them. The two versions have different strengths and weaknesses. Both make various choices and compromises with the material - some I can understand, whether I agree or not, while others are simply baffling! P75 tends to err on the side of drama - where it makes changes, it tends to do so in order to increase the drama of the story, for better or for worse. P15 tends to err on the side of romance - the changes it makes are designed to support the central romance, for better or for worse.

 

Neither really does justice to the books. I'd love to see a truly faithful version, that does justice to everyone and doesn't alter any characterisations!

[Nampara]

P75 tends to err on the side of drama - where it makes changes, it tends to do so in order to increase the drama of the story, for better or for worse. P15 tends to err on the side of romance - the changes it makes are designed to support the central romance, for better or for worse.

 

I think that is generally a fair summary, although I'm tempted to say "melodrama" rather than "drama" in the first sentence.

 

Sometimes it's just a matter of knowing how far to go in pushing an "enhanced" version of the story. Both taste and a sense of obligation to the text are required, but often there can be no absolutely certain limit on revisionism. Here's my favorite example: The account of Ross and Demelza's wedding is uneventful, brief, and dry in the novel. Demelza neither leaves Nampara nor even thinks of leaving. There is no proposal scene, no "Ross mulls it over" scene, and no "Demelza is stunned" scene. The wedding itself is merely stated to have occurred; almost no description of the event is provided, other than mundane quantitative details (the couple's ages and the number of witnesses). Ross's reasons for making the decision are addressed summarily, and dispassionately.

 

It's not surprising, therefore, that the producers of both adaptations felt that something had to be added to liven up this absolutely key development in the narrative. Add some spark! Add the sense that this is a monumental step for the characters. And give the audience something to watch. So the 2015 program shows us Demelza thinking over her options, and then glumly setting out on the road back home. She's moving; something is at least happening. (Having her make this choice also adds to the character's "agency," much beloved by contemporary audiences.) Ross has to go after her on horseback to let her know that all is not lost, and that she can stay with him without being relegated to an intolerable servant-mistress role. Then we see the two of them in church, about to take their vows. I think this sequence works quite well. It bends the text just a little, and does not come close to breaking it. The fundamental nature of the marriage, and its timing, remain unchanged.

 

The 1975 producers addressed the same textual shortcoming, but went way overboard. Ross cruelly sends Demelza away permanently! (It was cruel, because in the 1975 version, Demelza told Ross that she loved him before they slept together. That made her even more vulnerable.) Demelza finds out she's pregnant! Her father is beating her again! Ross and Elizabeth make a bold plan together; Demelza becomes desperate about her situation, etc., etc. Every conflict that could have been injected was injected. The adaptation of this part of the story exceeded the bounds of both good taste and editorial discretion, in my view.

 

On the "romance" point, here's my general attitude: I understand the opinion that an adaptation should not make Ross and Demelza happier than they are in the novels. I might not agree with that perspective these days, but I respect it: Embrace Graham's vision whole; give the audience the entire world he created, warts, deaths, VBTs, and all. However, I see no legitimate rationale for making Ross and Demelza less happy than they are in the novels, and P75 tends to do that, unfortunately.

[Llywela]

I think that is generally a fair summary, although I'm tempted to say "melodrama" rather than "drama" in the first sentence.

Heh. Just at the moment I'm inclined to agree, because I just watched the 'Dwight is rescued from France' sequence, and wow is it mischaracterised in the interests of action and drama! It is one of my favourite sequences in the book, an extended passage told from Ross's POV, with him worrying the whole time. He worries that he's leading six good men to their deaths. He asks himself over and over if the risk is truly justified for the sake of one man's life. He is haunted by the memory of leading a similar mission for Jim Carter and arriving too late to save him. He constantly examines his own motivations and is painfully self-aware - meaty, character informing, introspective stuff (granted, this is hard to translate to the screen!). And then there's the prison raid and escape, which are chock-full of situational tension.

 

The show, however, opts for the blood-and-thunder approach and is very gung-ho. In the book, the whole purpose of Tholly Tregirls as a character is to come along on this mission and do all the dirty work - Tholly is as near a pirate as makes no odds and has no qualms about killing, whereas even ex-soldier Ross is squeamish and reluctant to get blood on his hands, so has Tholly along to do any killing for him, the only one of the group who does anything of the kind (and then only one or two guards, in a pinch). The show, in contrast, has no qualms whatsoever - French soldiers are slaughtered left, right and centre by the intrepid band of untrained and apparently bloodthirsty Cornish miners, and even Dwight gets in on the action, which is a) impossible in the book since Dwight can barely walk when he's rescued, never mind win a brawl with a soldier, and b) grossly out of character for Dwight, who is hands down the gentlest male character in all 12 books and doesn't even get drawn into arguments, never mind a knife fight, someone to whom actively killing would be a really big thing. Character integrity and emotional consequence set aside in the interests of an exciting action sequence, I guess.

 

And then also, the show not only has Ross telling his men to take no prisoners, but also has him telling them as they retreat that it is 'every man for himself', which is absolutely the opposite of book!Ross, whose refusal to leave any man behind is an actual plot point when Joe Nanfan gets shot in the head at a critical moment in the escape. It is also a strong character moment for gentle healer Dwight, who, recognising that Nanfan cannot be saved but might take some time to die, makes the decision to lie and tell the others the man is already dead because he knows it is the only way to get them moving, and if they try to stay with him until he really does die they will all be captured and executed - he quietly takes the decision on himself to leave the man to die alone in the dark in order both to save the lives of the others and to spare Ross, who in that moment is incapable of making that decision himself. And then he confesses what he did at the earliest opportunity, once they are safely away. To me, all that is far weightier stuff than a few clumsy scenes of wrestling and gunfights.

 

Even the reunion with Caroline is all wrong - I really, really love that scene in the book, and hope P15 plays it out faithfully.

 

But having said all that, I find that I do still prefer watching P75 to P15, because however much the alterations annoy me, I find the story and characters as a whole far more engaging - when I watch P15, I'm engaged by Ross and Demelza's story and a bit by Verity's, but everything else just falls completely flat, and comparing the two has taught me that if I have to chose, I'll choose vivid characterisation and melodramatics over flat storytelling squeezed around the edges of a romance, any day.

 

But I still long to be able to combine the strengths of both in a version that has more episodes per book, truly understands all the characters, and is committed to telling the story as a whole, not just the bits that can be squeezed in!

 

 

Edited much later to add, in annoyance: just saw that someone had gone into the Wiki entry for the novels and edited the character info in line with changes made for P15! Seriously, people, the show is not the books. (I re-edited the bio for Dwight, who is definitely, definitely not an old war buddy of Ross in the books!)

Edited August 11, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

 

But having said all that, I find that I do still prefer watching P75 to P15, because however much the alterations annoy me, I find the story and characters as a whole far more engaging - when I watch P15, I'm engaged by Ross and Demelza's story and a bit by Verity's, but everything else just falls completely flat, and comparing the two has taught me that if I have to chose, I'll choose vivid characterisation and melodramatics over flat storytelling squeezed around the edges of a romance, any day.

 

 

 

I found myself more intrigued by Verity's story in P15 than by the Ross-Demelza story. The rest does fall flat as you say. I could care less about Elizabeth, Francis, Warleggan, Wheal Leisure, the Carters, the Martins, the Daniels, and Dwight.

[Nidratime]

I could care less about Elizabeth, Francis, Warleggan, Wheal Leisure, the Carters, the Martins, the Daniels, and Dwight.

 

 

And knowing how much more there is to their stories, via the books and the 1975 series, that's kind of too bad!

[Milz]

And knowing how much more there is to their stories, via the books and the 1975 series, that's kind of too bad!

 

Actually it's kind of sad because those characters and their stories are important in Poldark, as a whole. But it is clear that Horsfield put her energy into developing the great "romance" of Ross and Demelza that there was little energy left to give the other characters. That's why if the series continues, it's going to be interesting how Horsfield will develop them into the interesting and nuanced characters that they are, rather than props for Ross and Demelza.

[skyways]

But having said all that, I find that I do still prefer watching P75 to P15, because however much the alterations annoy me, I find the story and characters as a whole far more engaging - when I watch P15, I'm engaged by Ross and Demelza's story and a bit by Verity's, but everything else just falls completely flat, and comparing the two has taught me that if I have to chose, I'll choose vivid characterisation and melodramatics over flat storytelling squeezed around the edges of a romance, any day.

 

Agree with this 110%!  However I did find out when re-watching the 1975 series that I did miss the Christmas at Trentwith and the pilchard scenes. The old version completely bypassed all that. One could argue that because Horsefield was focused on mostly Ross and Demelza, she had to include EVERY singe scene about them from the books - while chopping many scenes about the other characters from the books. She had to fill the time somehow. But still my annoyance with the 2015 series is its lack of real flair - I found it had no real tension to it especially for me as a book reader. That's why I proclaimed it dull. The older series even while taking its own liberties had plenty of that - call it melodrama or whatever but it made the series enthralling to watch. They made the dramatic points from the books count for something ( the way Julia's christening and Warleggan ball played out in this series still annoys me). Even for many newcomers who have never seen or read Poldark, the 'action' generally played slow. Beyond the 'nice look',  they can tell it's not very deep and immediately think they know how things are likely to play out even if they are wrong. - no tension to it. I know British dramas generally move slow but this series did not help itself by the so many 'still scenes' and unspeaking glances/looks or whatever. It just added to the overall effect that nothing much was happening.

 

So I can't re-watch this series because I feel like there's not much to see (I saw it all the first time), but the 1975 series has that 'action feel like something was always happening and relationships were constantly changing, and the times were constantly evolving all because they included EVERY characters' point of view - just like the books.

[Milz]

I'll have to rewatch P75 because I thought Christmas at Trenwith was shown: Demelza and Ross spend Christmas there with Francis and Elizabeth. Demelza wears the fancy gown she had ordered. Or maybe I'm confusing that with the Bodrugan's ball? Anyhow, I need to rewatch....it's been at least 10 years since I watched it last.

 

BTW, I like the clothing P75's Demelza wore better than P15's clothing.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Milz

[Llywela]

I'll have to rewatch P75 because I thought Christmas at Trenwith was shown: Demelza and Ross spend Christmas there with Francis and Elizabeth. Demelza wears the fancy gown she had ordered. Or maybe I'm confusing that with the Bodrugan's ball? Anyhow, I need to rewatch....it's been at least 10 years since I watched it last.

Yeah, I think that's a ball that happens later. And there are dinners at Trenwith later. But P75 skips straight from the wedding to Julia's birth and doesn't cover the early stages of the marriage at all. It's probably the most disappointing aspect of the adaptation.

 

Like I said somewhere above: both adaptations have to make various choices - for some, it is easy enough to see why they went that way, whether we agree or not, but others are just baffling!

Edited August 11, 2015 by Llywela

[limecoke]

Wow, this thread is interesting with some good comparisons and thoughts on the two series and books.  I have to admit that I'm a bit behind and am just now finishing episode seven.

 

Yes, Nampara, you recreated the P75 Jud conversation very accurately.  It was brilliant, funny and sad.  Another reason why I detest Phil Davis' portrayal of Jud.  Paul Curran hit that one out of the park and is the Jud of the books and any film adaption from now to forever.

 

Ruby Bentall is the standout of the series for me.  She simply shines in an adaptation that minimizes her character to almost nothing. 

 

Yes!  Yes!  Yes, to all of you who made the point that the P15 adaptation made this about Ross and Demelza when in reality Poldark from start to finish is about Cornwall.  I'm not sure what Winston Graham accomplished can be adequately presented on film but P75 did a far better job.  Their only crime was Demelza's first pregnancy.  The crime list of P15 is far longer.

Edited August 11, 2015 by limecoke

[Llywela]

Wow, this thread is interesting with some good comparisons and thoughts on the two series and books.  I have to admit that I'm a bit behind and am just now finishing episode seven.  I absolutely hate the way P15 treats the Dwight story.  First he's presented as some sort of old war pal of Ross.  Then Keren comes to work for him and it appears from this version the thing with Dwight is only a one night stand which Dwight regrets immediately, thus going to the Daniel cottage the next day to make things right.  If I recall the books correctly, Dwight and Ross meet for the first time when D comes to Cornwall to help the miners with lung issues.  He and Keren actually have an affair that rages on for some time.  Mark doesn't suspect a thing until the night he leaves the mine early and catches Keren coming out of Dwight's cottage in the wee hours.  Her death is no accident either, if I remember correctly.  It always seemed to me that Mark murdered her in a rage.  Crime of passion, yes, but no accident.

Yes, yes, yes. Somewhere in the previous pages I went into some detail on how horribly wrong P15 gets the Dwight-Keren-Mark triangle. It is absolutely a murder in the book, no two ways about it. Mark hits Keren and knocks her to the ground, drags her back into the cottage by the hair when she tries to run away, and strangles the life out of her while she claws desperately at his hands. It is horrible. But the story is compelling from start to finish, a chemical cocktail of personalities and circumstances spiralling inevitably toward tragedy, all three characters fully formed and with relatable points of view. P15 strips away all the nuance and emotion, presents both Dwight and Mark as completely passive, while telling Keren's story in the most unsympathetic manner possible, even turning her death from murder to an accident that she brings on herself by attacking Mark first. It was the moment that broke me when I watched the series back in the spring - I'd been prepared to forgive the various acts of character assassination up till then, but not that.

 

P75 made plenty of mistakes, but it did a lovely job with Dwight and Keren in the time available.

 

I also think that P15 changing Dwight's backstory has a bigger impact on the character than the writer perhaps realised. If Dwight, in this version, was in the American war with Ross, he'd have to have qualified as a doctor first, which means he's probably older than Ross, while having served in the war gives him experience, both of life and of medical practice. In the book, it is really important to Dwight's characterisation that he is so young and inexperienced when he arrives in Cornwall fresh from his training and chock-full of new ideas - and, being several years younger than Ross, is at first very much his protegee rather than a peer. I really regret losing the formation of that friendship, which is one of my favourite character threads through the books - having it presented already fully formed might be thrifty in a medium without much room to spare, but robs both characters of vital development.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Llywela

[Nampara]

 

Their only crime was Demelza's first pregnancy. 

Well, as I've tried to show above, there was also drastically altering the early R-D marriage in terms of both happenings (missing) and emotions (no love). And the R-E elopement story was a huge "crime." It turned their relationship upside-down. Ross gained certain early knowledge of Elizabeth's love for him, and then he changed from the rejected party to the one doing the rejecting! That was a gigantic alteration that really should have eliminated much of the R-E intrigue that occurs in the novels, but the P75 producers couldn't seem to follow through on their radical reinvention of the story.

 

And then there was torching Trenwith to the ground ...

[limecoke]

Well, as I've tried to show above, there was also drastically altering the early R-D marriage in terms of both happenings (missing) and emotions (no love). And the R-E elopement story was a huge "crime." It turned their relationship upside-down. Ross gained certain early knowledge of Elizabeth's love for him, and then he changed from the rejected party to the one doing the rejecting! That was a gigantic alteration that really should have eliminated much of the R-E intrigue that occurs in the novels, but the P75 producers couldn't seem to follow through on their radical reinvention of the story.

And then there was torching Trenwith to the ground ...

Yes, indeed, Nampara, both of these "crimes" were huge mistakes on the part of the original series.  Ross doesn't fully reject Elizabeth until after he breaches the house and has his way with her.  The elopement story takes the stuffing out of that rejection and the way it stung for Elizabeth.  

 

In Robin Ellis' book, he reveals that Richard Morant (season one Dwight), leaves the series because of how Dwight is portrayed after Keren's murder.  Unfortunately, Ellis doesn't explain exactly why but it's the reason they had to recast Michael Cadman as Dwight in season two.  

 

I did love Robin Ellis as Reverand Halse in P15.  He was appropriately stuffy and cruel.  It was interesting to watch him play scenes with Aiden Turner.  Nice touch on the part of the new version.

[Llywela]

In Robin Ellis' book, he reveals that Richard Morant (season one Dwight), leaves the series because of how Dwight is portrayed after Keren's murder.  Unfortunately, Ellis doesn't explain exactly why but it's the reason they had to recast Michael Cadman as Dwight in season two.

Yeah, I'd read that too, that he didn't like the direction the character took. I'm not sure what it was he didn't like, though - I enjoy Dwight's story throughout, as a viewer! Such a shame he didn't come back for season two - Michael Cadman does a perfectly decent job, but it just isn't the same. Something about Morant's performance really leaps off the screen in a way Cadman's doesn't.

 

The re-cast did, however, allow them to do that 4th-wall-busting meta thing of having the new actor say 'I'm not the same man who went away...'

[Nidratime]

I don't have a clue what problem he had with Dwight's character arc either. Sounds like there were too many cooks wanting to be in the kitchen of that production.

[Caria]

ok, I just finished binge watching and feel compelled to comment. There' something not quite great about this series which makes me sad because I love the genre.  When I finished watching Pride and Prejudice I was absolutely obsessed with it and Colin Firth. This obsession lasted many years and only was surpassed once I found North and South with Richard Armitage. But even though Aiden Turner/Poldark is physically incredible I just I don't find his character all that compelling, nor do I find the love triangle all that interesting as many here have said. This is the type of show I should be eagerly awaiting for new episodes each week but I find that I can definitely wait. They've done a good job of building interest and suspense in regards to the mine and what's going to happen to Poldark business wise, but I don't feel any heat or intensity in the romantic side of the story. Just because a character says he/she's in love doesn't make it so. You need to show us with moments and chemistry. I find Poldark an appealing character but strangely sexless. Some of it is probably how the actor is portraying him but I really think it has mostly to do with the direction. I want to love this show and hope it will improve next season.

[MrsE]

It's in the eye of the beholder, clearly.  Certainly my response differs from yours.

 

There isn't really a "love triangle" as such;  certainly there are three people but there's no real competition going on.  It's inconceivable that Elizabeth would leave Francis,  Demelza only has eyes for Ross and he has unequivocally declared his love for her. The geometry of the situation lies more in the impact of decisions made and of, initially, lingering feelings, on others, and on the impact of others' actions on those three people.   

[Llywela]

Michael Cadman does a perfectly decent job, but it just isn't the same. Something about Morant's performance really leaps off the screen in a way Cadman's doesn't.

On continued rewatch, I've changed my mind and have now decided that Cadman's Dwight is just as adorable as Morant's Dwight, but in a different way. Morant worked really well as the cute young Dwight, fresh-faced and full of life, but Cadman does a great job as the older, paler, more world-weary Dwight who returns from France in shattered health and recovers only slowly.

[Nidratime]

On continued rewatch, I've changed my mind and have now decided that Cadman's Dwight is just as adorable as Morant's Dwight, but in a different way. Morant worked really well as the cute young Dwight, fresh-faced and full of life, but Cadman does a great job as the older, paler, more world-weary Dwight who returns from France in shattered health and recovers only slowly.

 

 

That's been the problem all along in comparing the two performances. The Dwight that Morant portrayed was all young, eager and full of optimism about his duties and his life's work. Then, he left the show. And, the character re-enters the story as someone who's been beaten down by life and all that he's gone through. It's an entirely different acting job, and so, of course the fans prefer the former Dwight to the one Cadman is called to play.

[applecrisp]

I watched this version and enjoyed it.  It took awhile for me to get into the story.  I have re watched.  I also started watching P75 and at first was struck by how loud and dramatic it was.  I have watched over half of it so far and am enjoying it for what it is.  I prefer P15 Ross and Demelza.  P75's Ross over acts a little bit and is rather prickly though his scar is more realistic.

 

I like the new one better for many reasons, it is paced better the scenery and music is so much better.  I just found a lot of the P75's

"characters" like Jud over done and not funny.  P15 Ross seems to fit in better with the miners and is kinder in general.  I don't like the way Ross P75 treats Demelzas brothers.  D and R's relationship is also more loving and some of the scenes were quite steamy.  I may have a slight crush on Turner.  So I am biased.

Edited August 18, 2015 by applecrisp

[Nidratime]

Caroline Penvenen's pug dog has been cast. :-)

 

https://twitter.com/PoldarkTV/status/638788980255916032

 

And here's a photo of Aiden Turner at the "read through" for the first episode of season 2, posted by "Elizabeth."

 

https://twitter.com/ReedHeida/status/639529693109178368

[Llywela]

Caroline Penvenen's pug dog has been cast. :-)

 

https://twitter.com/PoldarkTV/status/638788980255916032

So they'll show us the dog, but won't tell us who they've cast as Caroline? Humbug! I'm very anxious for a good Caroline - and hope the representation of Dwight improves, he's been such a nonentity so far. I really need the show to get their story right, it's one of my favourite threads through the middle books.

 

I'm glad they're using an actual pug as Caroline's dog this time, as it should be!