Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Dianthus]

I'm having a really hard time imagining a milder, less unpleasant form of Regina. It'd be quite a feat if they pull it off, but, seriously, how long can they resist the temptation to have her "sass" someone?

I'd love to see her in 'chipped Spike' mode, where she can't act on (or, in this case, doesn't have) her less than noble intentions, but these guys could screw up a two car funeral if you spotted them the hearse.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina was in less-unpleasant mode for most of 5B. (Between lectures to Zelena.) From what we saw of her in her last scene of the finale, she seems more subdued post-split. It's too bad it's not something more drastic or interesting. I guess there's not enough time to write for anything more with all that jerking off to the Evil Queen to do.

Edited June 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I was trying to think of all the main characters who haven't had an alone, one-on-one conversation with each other that lasted longer than a 30 seconds. This is the list I came up with:

1. Hook + Snow
2. Robin + Belle
3. Robin + Henry
4. Robin + Zelena (Which is ironic because they lived together for a few months in NYC, but I can't really count that because she was pretending to be Marian the entire time. It's also sad because Robin and Zelena should have had the bulk of the baby drama together, but the writers inserted Regina into those conversations instead.)
5. Emma + Belle
6. Emma + Robin
7. Belle + David

The only pairings my memory is fuzzy on is David + Zelena and Belle + Snow. If I expanded the list to including Neal, then Regina + Neal would be on there. The only person who has had a substantive conversation with each main character is Rumple, and that's mainly because of his ability to be in literally every flashback ever.

But how does this even happen? The show has surpassed 100 episodes and is going into Season 6 and we still have main characters who haven't interacted with each other in a significant way. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

When was the last time Emma and Snow had a private one-on-one conversation that lasted longer than a minute?  How many times does that happen per season?  And this is one of the "core" relationships on the show.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

It is really sad the writers only seem to like writing for certain relationships among the main characters. 

Snow with David or Regina.

Emma with Hook or Regina, and sometimes Henry. 

Regina with Snow, Emma, Zelena, and Henry. 

Hook and Rumple typically have heart to hearts only with their significant others (who is usually unconscious in Rumple's case). Hook sometimes interacts with Henry. Rumple and Hook occasionally have chats with Regina as well. 

Guess who is the common denominator in all these cases? 

[Curio]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

When was the last time Emma and Snow had a private one-on-one conversation that lasted longer than a minute?  How many times does that happen per season?  And this is one of the "core" relationships on the show.

The only one I can recall from Season 5 was when Snow was helping Emma get ready for the ball in Camelot, but even that conversation left a bitter taste in my mouth because Snow spent more time helping Regina prepare for that ball than her own daughter.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

I just saw it as yet another example of blatant bias and favoritism on A&E&Writing Room's part.  That wasn't even a scene.  Snow got one line and Emma got one line.  Neither of their sentiments were developed nor expanded upon.  Meanwhile, Regina got the entire "I never learned how to dance" scene with Snow and Charming.  Also in that episode, Emma got an entire scene with multiple lines alone with Regina, and she also got an entire scene with multiple lines alone with Hook.  Henry got to have a longer conversation with Violet than Snow got with Emma.  It's ridiculous.

[Rumsy4]

Regina not knowing how to dance makes absolutely no sense, considering how obsessed Cora was to get Regina married up. This was just another excuse to paint Snow as a selfish young girl who didn't even notice that her step-mother was treated "horribly" by her father that he wouldn't even dance with his wife. It's as though David and Snow were Regina's parents, and Snow was just a friend of Emma who helped her get dressed. Considering Regina's attempt to seduce David in S1, him teaching Regina how to dance is even more icky.

Robin should have been the one who didn't know how to dance. He could have felt embarrassed about not knowing how to dance, and Regina should have shown him. But, Robin was persona non grata in that relationship. So, god forbid they give him something reasonable.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

This was just another excuse to paint Snow as a selfish young girl who didn't even notice that her step-mother was treated "horribly" by her father that he wouldn't even dance with his wife.

Notice that the Writers didn't even have Snow respond to that.  Considering Regina murdered Snow's father, that line was incredibly cruel.  But nope, let's get Snow to offer her husband to teach you to dance.  I'm sure it will feel just like pushing him against the wall and choking the life out of him after dear Snow fell into that portal in the Season 2 premiere after trying to save you from the Wraith.

[Curio]

16 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This was just another excuse to paint Snow as a selfish young girl who didn't even notice that her step-mother was treated "horribly" by her father that he wouldn't even dance with his wife. It's as though David and Snow were Regina's parents, and Snow was just a friend of Emma who helped her get dressed.

Responding in Snow's thread.

[YaddaYadda]

9 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Robin should have been the one who didn't know how to dance. He could have felt embarrassed about not knowing how to dance, and Regina should have shown him. But, Robin was persona non grata in that relationship. So, god forbid they give him something reasonable.

If they had done it that way, him being stabbed practically to death to protect Regina would have had a lot more impact, I think. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, XrystalPond said:

I gave the side eye to that scene too because it wasn't Emma's first ball at all. She had been to the one in the past with Hook. It's not like Snow wouldn't have known this, as that is the one scene we've been told is in the book with CS. This was her first one going as herself, but even that was a bit off since Regina was pretending to be the Savior and Emma was trying to deal with the darkness. 

And don't get me started on Regina with the two left feet thing going on here. Clearly Emma was taught to dance rather quickly by Hook. She grew up in foster homes. I doubt their was much fairy tale ballroom dancing going on there. There could have been a quite lovely scene there with Emma telling her parents that she only learned the one dance from the time travel thing and wishes she knew more. David could have danced with her and even said something supportive about knowing that she isn't evil or bad just because she was cursed as the Dark One. 

Goodness, this makes the whole thing even more unpalatable, doesn't it? Snow & Charming were more obsessed with parenting Regina, the fake savior, than their daughter who was struggling with Darkness and would benefit from some TLC. 

[Camera One]

It is also possible to try to read the scene as Snow and Charming being more concerned that Regina play the role of "The Savior" convincingly, to ensure that Emma's secret identity is protected:

REGINA: I can watch (the baby). I'm not going.
SNOW: But you have to. Everyone's expecting you.

REGINA: People are expecting a savior tonight, not an ex-evil queen. How will they ever believe I can free Merlin if I can't even convince them I know how to dance?
SNOW: You can if we teach you.

SNOW: What he means is if you want people to see you as the Savior, maybe you should go for something a bit less evil?

DAVID: Now, when we're done, everyone in Camelot will believe you're the Savior. One, two, three. One, two, three.

And then later...

REGINA: This sword was enchanted to kill me. My magic can't heal him.
REGINA (To Emma): But maybe yours can.
HOOK: No. No, we can't let her use dark magic.
SNOW: Regina, this was the whole point of your pretending to be the Savior.

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I don't care about the dancing as much as I care about celebrating the faux!Savior while the real Savior gets crapped on.

[Shanna Marie]

The issue for me wasn't so much the fact that Snow and David were helping Regina prepare for the ball so she wouldn't blow her cover (then again, since when is dancing in the job description for Savior?). It was that the way they set up Snow and David having to help her was so contrived. Social climbing Cora would have made good and sure Regina knew how to dance and behave at a ball. Even if her goal all along was strictly to put Regina with Leopold and she wasn't interested in pushing her around to other balls to introduce her to eligible young noblemen, she'd have taught Regina to dance and behave at a ball so she'd be able to wow Leopold when the time was right. There was even all the talk in earlier episodes about being ladylike instead of running around on a horse. If Cora wanted Regina to be ladylike, she'd have taught her to dance at a ball. Then it's bizarre to make Snow have to feel sorry for Regina never getting to dance at a ball when Regina married Leopold in order to get revenge on Snow after Cora murdered Snow's mother to pave the way for Regina, and Regina was too busy resenting everyone around her to even try to make friends. I find it hard to believe that the Leopold we saw would have rejected Regina if Regina had asked to dance with him. I also find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have followed the convention of him and his queen opening the ball with the first dance. There is no way someone would have been the queen for at least a decade and never once danced. Even if Leo was too busy dancing with Snow to pay attention to her, other nobles and foreign emissaries would have jumped at the chance to dance with the queen. That would have been part of diplomacy and trying to get attention and favor. It's just entirely outside the realm of possibility that Regina wouldn't have known how to dance and never would have danced at a ball, so they did something incredibly and ridiculously contrived and unbelievable to set up a "relationship" scene with Snow, David, and Regina at the expense of the genuine relationship scene that was built into the fabric of the story they were telling -- not only Emma fighting against the darkness and needing the help of all those who loved her, but also Emma's parents getting to see her for the first time (that they knew of -- when they knew who she was) at a ball. They even showed David having a dream/nightmare about Emma's first ball. They could even have had fun with the fact that it wasn't really Emma's first ball, but it was hard for them to wrap their minds around the fact that she was at her first ball while they were meeting for the first time. "No, Dad, this isn't my first ball, remember? You were there. I was wearing a red dress, though I guess I didn't look quite like myself. And then you left and caught Mom stealing your ring."

[KingOfHearts]

It's difficult to rewatch anything Outlaw Queen. The pairing, by nature, presents several different conflicts. Robin's death was abrupt and nothing was really resolved. Therefore, the relationship seems pointless to watch as a whole.

[YaddaYadda]

Robin was pointless, the ending of season 5 made most of season 4 pointless. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

Robin was pointless, the ending of season 5 made most of season 4 pointless. 

After the mess they write for OQ in S4, it seems the writers completely lost interest in Robin. He had barely anything to do in S5, except getting stabbed or zapped to save Regina. I wonder when the writers decided to kill him off, and why.

[Curio]

14 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

After the mess they write for OQ in S4, it seems the writers completely lost interest in Robin. He had barely anything to do in S5, except getting stabbed or zapped to save Regina. I wonder when the writers decided to kill him off, and why.

I don't know when the decision was made, but the "why" is that the writers became more interested in mending the relationship between Zelena and Regina instead of furthering Robin and Regina, and that can't fully work unless Robin is out of the picture because of the rape baby. And at the end of the day, for A&E, Zelena > Robin.

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, Curio said:

I don't know when the decision was made, but the "why" is that the writers became more interested in mending the relationship between Zelena and Regina instead of furthering Robin and Regina, and that can't fully work unless Robin is out of the picture because of the rape baby. And at the end of the day, for A&E, Zelena > Robin.

Plus Zelena is snarky and has magic. But yeah, it came down to the relationship they wanted to work with, and Robin lost out.

[Curio]

When they were originally setting up Robin and Regina, I thought they were going with the classic rich, pompous, royalty girl dates a smelly, outdoorsy, commoner guy rom-com trope. And then they did nothing with it, except for a few snarky lines like "he smells like forest." Actually, that's literally the only example I can think of. They never explored the characters' extremely different backgrounds and social statuses.

They could have had some fun with Robin being in awe of the features in Regina's mansion in Storybrooke, or Regina could have roughed it out in the woods for a few nights with no magic, or Robin could have convinced Regina to let the Camelot people stay in her huge house instead of forcing them to live in tents. It practically writes itself.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Just now, Curio said:

When they were originally setting up Robin and Regina, I thought they were going with the classic rich, pompous, royalty girl dates a smelly, outdoorsy, commoner guy rom-com trope. And then they did nothing with it, except for a few snarky lines like "he smells like forest." Actually, that's literally the only example I can think of.

And that even happened before they got together. There was no overcoming all those differences for them to get together. The only difference between them meeting in the Enchanted Forest and them meeting in Storybrooke was the clothes they were wearing and Regina seeing his tattoo. Did she no longer care that he lived in the forest and probably smelled like it (no indoor plumbing)? When they got their memories back it was played as a joke that they found each other annoying before, but they didn't do anything different in Storybrooke that would have made them less annoying to each other. Basically, Regina fell in love with a tattoo.

[KingOfHearts]

Regina fell in love with the idea of having a boyfriend. As someone who is never content, she wanted a "happy ending" goal. It's a trend in her life to vow to be happy if certain circumstances are met. (Henry's approval, Daniel, revenge on Snow, etc.) Whenever she can't have what she wishes for, the universe is supposedly working against her. However, when she does get something, she gets bored and moves on to something else. Expect a new objective in S6 to replace the tattoo. 

[Camera One]

I was just rewatching the scene where David talks to Emma about moments.  It has been obvious that Snow and Emma are never given sustained personal conversations (the last one, preparation for the Camelot dance, was 26 seconds).  The same problem is also the case with David.  I was remembering how in Season 3, because of Ginny's pregnancy, it seemed like Josh Dallas getting more time with Emma.  That moments conversation lasted 1.5 minutes.  But have there been any sustained true, personal conversations lasting that length between David and Emma from 4B onwards?

[mjgchick]

Regina and Robin could've had a moment where Regina the Queen would teach Robin the thief how to dance at balls but nope, Robin can't have a POV unless he's getting ready to die.

[KingOfHearts]

19 minutes ago, mjgchick said:

Regina and Robin could've had a moment where Regina the Queen would teach Robin the thief how to dance at balls but nope, Robin can't have a POV unless he's getting ready to die.

Robin didn't even get a POV in his own death episode. The only episode shown from his perspective is Heart of Gold. It remains to be his only centric. Cruella, Graham, Neal, Ingrid, Hook and Cora all got centrics for their deaths. Did Robin? Nope. Last Rites setup Regina's tragedy more than it did Robin's send-off. 

I just realized - Roland isn't even in that devastated in the next episode. Both of his parents are now dead, and he was fully composed. Not only that, but now he had to move to a completely different land again. It gets so much worse, though - He wanted to give a feather to the woman who attempted to murder his mother (and succeeded in another timeline). The person who delivered it murdered his mother, and was also the one who raped his father, attempted to murder him, and ultimately was partially responsible for his death. That's all kinds of messed up.

Edited August 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I just realized - Roland isn't even in that devastated in the next episode. Both of his parents are now dead, and he was fully composed. Not only that, but now he had to move to a completely different land again. It gets so much worse, though - He wanted to give a feather to the woman who attempted to murder his mother (and succeeded in another timeline). The person who delivered it murdered his mother, and was also the one who raped his father, attempted to murder him, and ultimately was partially responsible for his death. That's all kinds of messed up.

Yeah, I finally rewatched that episode last week, and that scene is so disturbing. It's cute superficially. If you'd never seen the show before, you might find it sweet that the little kid is kissing his baby sister goodbye and leaving a feather for his dead father's girlfriend, but then you might find it a little weird that one kid is being taken away and the other left behind, and why is the woman who's the mom of the baby not the father's girlfriend? If you've watched the show and put any thought into the scene, though, it becomes intensely creepy. For one thing, how does Roland even know he has a baby sister? Supposedly, his memory of Marian coming back and them living in New York was wiped. How do they explain him suddenly having a baby sister whose mother is a woman he's only encountered when she was stuck in the role of Regina's mute handmaiden in Camelot? Especially when Regina is the woman who's been with his father all that time? And then there's him giving the feather to the woman who imprisoned his mother and hugging the woman who murdered his mother.

Though I guess he's composed because he didn't lose his real dad, Little John. Robin may as well have been a stranger to him. He's just the guy who used him as bait for shadows and who ditched him to run off with his new girlfriend and then randomly fathered a child with some other woman before ditching him and the newborn to run off to the Underworld with his new girlfriend. Little John has been the person who looked after Roland. As long as Roland has Little John in his life, he's good, and his life will probably be more stable now that Robin's not going to be randomly popping up to pretend to be his father for five minutes.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

How do they explain him suddenly having a baby sister whose mother is a woman he's only encountered when she was stuck in the role of Regina's mute handmaiden in Camelot?

The Shadow - er, I mean the Stork - brought her. That kid is going to be so traumatized by the truth of his parents when he gets older. Also, I know this is fairy tales, but they're taking a child out to the woods in a feudal society when they could be living in a modern town with free healthcare and education. It's a good thing for the adults that there doesn't seem to be any form of child protection services.

Edited August 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Belle and Rumple are caught in this perpetual cycle of deception, break up, and make up. There's no reason to expect anything else for them! We already have this tidbit that Belle might try to keep the baby away from Rumple. I can't see why. 

Why are they still together? I don't understand why A&E don't break them up or kill one of them off. That, to me, sounds like an obvious way to generate new drama. It's not like they haven't thought of that before. If they're willing to kill Regina's soulmate and put Captain Swan through hell, why keep spinning the wheels on such an explosive couple? Sure they've had angst. There's still soapy drama. But there's nothing interesting about teasing a Rumpbelle happy ending with Rumple redeeming himself. The writers seem afraid of changing their status quo too much. (True with many things, but Robin's death did show that not all things are as concrete as they may seem.)

[Camera One]

 There's really no point in killing off Belle at this point, because Rumple was willing to become the Dark One again, let everyone die, etc. with or without her.  Clearly, Neal dying did nothing to change Rumple's thirst for power, and neither will Belle.  But they're sure to use Belle to "humanize" Rumple whenever they feel like they've stretched his muhahaha muscle too far, and to claim they're writing complex characters.   It's beyond tiresome.  

The baby thing is really unnecessary.  Belle does not need a baby to realize that Rumple is bad news and she should get away STAT.  It shows how little thought they've put into her psyche to throw this whole new level of contrivance into the plot.  This is akin to the Writers deciding to create that whole eggnapper crap into the Snowing/Emma relationship even though they already had a ton of other more organic issues they could have dealt with.  

In short, the Writers are not interested in relationship building, only in superficial drama.  

Edited August 10, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I don't even think the point is for Belle to finally realize that Rumple is bad news. The whole point, especially with 5x16 was for Belle to realize that deep down, she enjoys the darkness. She's more Lacey than Belle. This is their way out of this clusterfuck. Belle loves Rumple, she loves his darkness too for some reason. Maybe she'll stop trying to reason with him since we all know it's always useless in the long run.

[Camera One]

She may like his dark parts too, but according to A&E, she still believes Rumple is a good person deep down.  So I don't see any difference in how this makes their relationship any more coherent or believable.

[KingOfHearts]

If the show embraced Belle's love for Rumple's dark parts and portrayed the couple has legitimately sick/twisted, then that would be entertaining. But Belle is still resisting it (sleeping curse, for instance) and A&E still talk like Rumple's redeemable. The writers want both halves of the couple to be both dark and heroic, but at different times. But that's not complexity - that's inconsistency. It fosters an "on-the-fence" style of writing that lets the audience know the writers want their cake and to eat it too.

Edited August 10, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

After Belle pushed Gaston into the River, she seemed to come around to Rumple's view that "darkness" would always win or some such thing. And yet, the very next day, she gets mad at him and puts herself under a Sleeping Curse, saying her dad will wake her up. She'll probably wake up and go back to him. Then break up when she finds out about his teaming up with Pan to obtain the contract from Hades or for making a deal with Hyde. At the end of the season, Rumple will cry some woobie tears and she'll get back with him again. How Belle keeps going back to him even after he continues to deceive and betray her is beyond me. That is not someone who is tempted by Darkness herself. That is someone who is still wilfully delusional about their power to "reform" someone by their love.

I think, despite everything, the writers are unwilling to reform Rumple becasue of romantic love. Neal was the only person who was able to somewhat keep Rumple on a leash, and they killed him off to have Rumple backslide. Maybe the writers will kill off Belle once she has the baby. Then, Rumple's story will go back to being about a single father struggling to take care of his son. Because the writers handled that so well the first time, you know.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

I honestly don't think Neal would've made any difference. The writers are hellbent on keeping Robert happy with twisted Rumple when really he's just a bland villain with a bland emotionally abusive relationship. I wish they'd just pull the plug and have respect for Belle's character.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Yes, and A&E also love that relationship (Regina/Snow)  I think it stems from the fact that people latched upon Emma and Regina right from the beginning, when both Emma and Regina were single.  Maybe there's also the sense that Snow is lame-o and is no match for Regina whereas Emma is more badass.  Still, the Writers clearly include Snow/Regina on their checklist of couplings to write for every season.

The Regina/Snow dynamic should be interesting for a number of obvious reasons. I think it's often forgotten that Regina is technically her stepmother. But why, out of everyone, is Snow her top cheerleader? Her daughter was almost murdered by her. If she cared about Emma as much as she says, that would irk her. I fail to understand why the writers chose to approach the relationship as they did.

[Camera One]

And the Writers continually congratulate themselves on how great it is that Snow and Regina are so "close".  Even if one took Emma out of it, this "friendship" requires that Snow completely overlook that Regina murdered her father and stood by while Cora murdered Johanna.  So I don't buy Snow and Regina's friendship any more than Emma and Regina's friendship.   Even Henry's constant cheerleading of Regina feels completely disingenuous and unnatural to me.  All three of these "relationships" should be tenuous and fragile, until the actual end of the series, when Regina would finally fully earn their trust and forgiveness.  Instead, we have Snow kowtowing to Regina for killing her mass-murderer of a mother (who's now in the Light and "redeemed" - copyright Eddy), Emma constantly having new reasons for feeling guilty about stuff that wasn't actually her fault, and Henry acting like he left his brain behind in the Burning Room back in 2A.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Only reason is the REC which dictates that Regina is the biggest victim ever and has apparently suffered the most of all charatcers. Regina is the most coddled character in the Show, with the least justification for it.

[RadioGirl27]

It's the REC. Regina is so awesome that everybody, even her victims (because Snow, Emma, and Henry but also Robin and Roland are her victims), should love and workship her. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Only reason is the REC which dictates that Regina is the biggest victim ever and has apparently suffered the most of all charatcers. 

Which becomes less and less believable as time goes on. Just look at Emma in S5.

On another note, I dislike how Regina's grief over Robin was handled. Unlike with Captain Swan, Regina seemed more upset that her "happiness" was taken from her again than that her boyfriend was obliterated. 

Edited August 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

23 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina seemed more upset that her "happiness" was taken from her again than that her boyfriend was obliterated. 

But her "happiness" seemed to be the only thing important in that relationship.  I doubt she could sincerely name one thing about Robin himself that was an important part of their relationship, apart from his tattoo and, well, must we speak of crypt time?

Even when Marian was introduced, Regina seemed more upset that her life was no longer perfect, and not particularly upset that Robin himself was gone.

It's actually, unfortunately, consistent characterization.

[Camera One]

Quote

On another note, I dislike how Regina's grief over Robin was handled. Unlike with Captain Swan, Regina seemed more upset that her "happiness" was taken from her again than that her boyfriend was obliterated.

It was a clunky transition to get to the point where Regina would split herself in two.  Robin's death pretty much reverted Regina back to the stuff she was saying in 4B about her being doomed to not getting a happy ending.  The scenarios created on this show are so repetitive, that Regina could also have taken the Jekyll potion in the 4A premiere, the 4A finale or the 4B premiere, when she was similarly down in the dumps over Robin, with the exact same heart-to-heart convo she had with Emma in the 5B finale.  "Darkness on the Edge of Town" could have been The Evil Queen coming to Storybrooke instead of the Queens of Darkness.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I dislike how Regina's grief over Robin was handled. Unlike with Captain Swan, Regina seemed more upset that her "happiness" was taken from her again than that her boyfriend was obliterated.

That seems pretty typical of how this show writes Regina. I'm never sure if they mean to make it all about her as typical characterization for Regina or if it is them being truly blind and thinking it's completely normal for Regina to talk about being kicked in the teeth again when it's her boyfriend who was raped because Regina's life is just so hard and sad. I'm still confused why they couldn't have Regina offer her support to her soul mate and vow to be happy regardless of the new obstacle in their path. As it is, it seems like Regina requires life to be absolutely perfect and the second things get difficult, it's all woe is me the universe hates me. What about Roland? What about Henry who lost Hook & Robin within days of each other? Does she think the universe hates them too? Does she even bother to help Henry through his grief and, in doing so, help herself?

We know these writers can write to acknowledge characters' feelings without making it all about that character. Hook took Henry out sailing to help him deal with Neal's death and Hook admitted that it would help him too. Both characters were given a POV on their relationship (or lack thereof) with Neal and it was not all about Henry & Hook. Emma stood at Hook's grave and talked about how she missed him. She wasn't grieving the end of her happiness or wondering why the universe hates her, she was missing her friend. They are sad about their loss, but the narrative reflects that they are grieving the specific loss of Neal/Hook, not focusing solely on themselves like the loss is a personal affront to them due to cosmic interference.

The way Regina and her relationships have been written, I will never believe that she can live happily ever after. Not because she can't have a True Love or a baby or whatever she decides she needs to be happy, but because she expects all of that to be perfect at all times and that's not how life works. She not only needs to stop thinking everything is about her, she needs to learn to deal with the challenges of every day life and I'm not entirely sure she can ever do that. What real relationship could survive one partner constantly blaming the cosmos rather than standing up and working through the issue?

[Shanna Marie]

8 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

That seems pretty typical of how this show writes Regina. I'm never sure if they mean to make it all about her as typical characterization for Regina or if it is them being truly blind and thinking it's completely normal for Regina to talk about being kicked in the teeth again when it's her boyfriend who was raped because Regina's life is just so hard and sad.

The pattern even goes back to before Robin. When she was on her revenge kick after Daniel's death, it was never about Daniel. She wasn't trying to avenge him. She wasn't trying to stop the person who killed him from hurting someone else. It was all "you ruined my life." It was all about her. She was even willing to destroy the last item she had from Daniel in order to work on her revenge some more, which was a good sign that Daniel himself was actually pretty immaterial to her, and it was all about her own feelings. You can contrast this with Hook after Milah's death, where his focus was entirely on avenging her. He wanted to strike back at and end the person who killed her. Not that revenge is good, but the focus was very much on Milah without much talk about what Rumple had done to Hook, other than cutting his hand off. With Regina, it was more "you took away something I wanted" than "you did something bad to someone I loved" (and it wasn't even focused on the person who actually did it).

Then when "Marian" came back, Regina was so focused on what it meant to her that she didn't even consider that it might be a good thing for Robin and Roland. I guess one reason they had "Marian" willing to give up Robin and Robin choosing Regina before the heart freeze kicked in (even though that kind of emotional subtlety is way out of character for Zelena) was that if neither Marian nor Robin really wanted to have to leave town with each other, Regina was absolved from being expected to be in any way happy for them getting to have their family together again rather than feeling sorry for herself. When Robin dies, she's all "I'm doomed!" with no consideration of what happened to poor little Roland -- he's an even bigger victim than Regina is. Did he do anything to deserve losing both of his parents? Is the universe punishing him? Or is it maybe that sometimes things happen when you're surrounded by danger?

I noticed in those script pages for the season finale that were posted, Violet is consoling Henry about Robin's death because she knew Robin was close to Henry's mom. So, basically, it comes across as "I'm sorry something awful happened to Regina" as a consolation to Henry. That scene as aired was already weird because there had been no mention of Violet since the middle of the previous arc -- Henry wasn't worried about her when the Dark Ones were in town, we didn't know if she got her memories back from the dreamcatchers, Henry didn't show any signs of thinking about leaving her behind when they went to the Underworld, he didn't say goodbye to her, didn't show any signs of missing her -- and in the scene it was clear that this was the first time they'd seen each other since his return. The characters hadn't seen the end of the previous episode, so they didn't know Hook was back. Hook was the one Henry brought to the barn where he met with Violet, and he was the one Henry was house hunting with in Camelot. We never saw Robin and Henry together. But Violet only offers condolences to Henry about Robin rather than about the guy Henry was planning on moving in with as a family. And then we see that, as written, she was really talking about Regina's feelings.

[Rumsy4]

There's a deleted scene in the S5 Blu Ray special features where Regina, Robin, and Henry are about to leave the UW becasue Cora's threats about Henry Sr.. Regina and Henry talk about Henry Sr., and Regina basically tells him that her father was the first person to give her hope that she would be happy, and then when it got "taken away" Henry Jr. was the next person to make her feel that way. Then Henry tells her that he believes in her just like her father did. It's all of a piece with Regina's attitude to life. People seem to matter to her mainly when it concerns her own happiness. It was sad to see Henry once again acting like a parent towards Regina. Robin did not even have a word to say in that scene except "what?!" towards the end. Robin was barely present in any significant scenes for Regina in 5B. She has a long list of cheerleaders who will fill the breach--Henry, Snow, Emma, and likely now, Zelena. By all accounts, Regina shouldn't even be missing him. Other than for you know ...

[YaddaYadda]

Even if she feels that she always gets screwed over where her happiness it concerned, the people in her vicinity end up suffering more for it. Zelena decides to be Marian, and takes Robin from her, and conceives a child with him all the while being Marian. It wasn't oh poor Robin, it was oh poor Regina, she just got kicked in the teeth once more. Robin became this pawn in a war between Zelena and Regina. Robin dies, and it's not poor Roland, he's now lost his mother (though he does remember the time he spent with "her" because he was memory potioned to death), he's now lost his father, a decision was made for him to go back to the EF. 

She even made Hook coming back about her. It wasn't about well that' s amazing, I'm happy for you, you guys deserve to be happy after everything you've been through. Her first thought is that Emma and Hook are getting what they wanted, and then her instinct is to send him right back to the UW because she wants to rip his throat out.

She stays good because she will lose Henry first and foremost if she reverts, and even at that, the little twerp will never write her off because *insert all his reasons here*, then the Charmings. 

Until the finale, I actually liked Regina enough in 5B. There was some self-awareness there. She stopped with the whole Zelena, stop playing victim, she seemed to get her, because let's face it, those two are from the same mold of "you have everything, and I have nothing." This is exactly how Regina sees everyone else. Emma and Snow now have everything. They are reunited, they have this family they created, and even when their significant other died, they were brought back to them either by splitting hearts, or because a God intervened. 

The whole thing with Regina is just weird. Sometimes, I really wonder how much the writers like the character, or if they felt they made a mistake by transitioning her so quickly over to the good side. It's really difficult to follow what they're trying to do.

They keep trying to walk her back, and keep the status quo with the relationships she has formed. They can't have it both ways, so split the character in half instead.

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

[Regina] seemed to get [Zelena], because let's face it, those two are from the same mold of "you have everything, and I have nothing." This is exactly how Regina sees everyone else.

Why is it that Zelena is the only one who turns green with jealousy? It seems like Regina can be consumed with jealousy just as much as her sister, yet she doesn't turn green...

[YaddaYadda]

26 minutes ago, Curio said:

Why is it that Zelena is the only one who turns green with jealousy? It seems like Regina can be consumed with jealousy just as much as her sister, yet she doesn't turn green...

We should ask the writers about that. Jealousy runs in the family. It's like the chin gene in the Charmings' DNA, passed down from mother to child, jealousy is also a trait that also seems to be passed down.

Maybe it's a good thing Roland is far away from his sister. In 5 years, she'll be screaming that "he has everything".

[mjgchick]

Even when she has way more family members and Roland's pretty much lost both parents at the cause of the Mills sisters. Cora would probably be proud if Robin was rich.

[Camera One]

Cora seemed to be satisfied with the Sheriff of Nottingham as Regina's husband.  What happened to wanting her to marry up?  Or Cora just wanted a grandchild?  If so, why?  It's not like she warmed to Henry at all.  A&E are really quite obsessed with the Cora/Regina relationship.  

Edited August 15, 2016 by Camera One