Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Curio]

I'm still sad that they could have done some really good stuff with Rumple dealing with being magic-less/dealing with consequences and Belle getting to know Original Recipe Rumple, but nope, we got NONE of that, and yet another betrayal to boot, to the point that Rumbelle is now irrevocably ruined.  A&E will no doubt claim that a baby will change all and we'll get another round of Rumple the Human Yo-Yo.

 

It would have been interesting if Belle and Rumple tried to awkwardly rekindle their relationship while Rumple was still magic-less, but they slowly realized the relationship doesn't work unless Rumple is the Dark One. So then Belle could have been the one to hint to Rumple that there's a certain switcheroo spell that could give him back the Dark One powers, and then she'd get the villain she loves back. Twisted? Yes. Better than what we've gotten so far? Debatable.

 

For me, Rumbelle only works if Belle is kind of a twisted weirdo who actually likes Darker Rumple over Hero Rumple.

[mjgchick]

I've always wanted a dark Belle. The question is would Rumple like Dark Belle? Would he want a Belle that he can't control? I remember him not being into Lacey all that much.

[Shanna Marie]

I remember him not being into Lacey all that much.

He initially wasn't that into Lacey because she wasn't Belle and he wanted her to be Belle, but he got really into her once he realized that she was turned on by his violence. He ultimately chose Belle, since he gave her the memory restoring potion, but he seemed to enjoy Lacey.

[Curio]

We've brought up a lot how this show would do well if they experimented more with pairing off different character combinations, and since we still have a few more weeks before the spring premiere, I figured we could play a mix and match game. 

 

Of these 8 main characters [Emma, Snow, David, Hook, Regina, Robin, Rumple, and Belle], which unusual combinations would you most like to see paired off on an adventure for an episode? Here's the catch: you can only use a character once, so no double-dipping and repeating the same character for another pairing. (If you really want to get crazy, you can include Henry and Zelena in your list to make it 10. But I don't care to see them on screen at all, so I didn't include them in the Big 8.)

 

• Emma + Robin → I don't think I've ever seen these two share a conversation longer than 5 words.
• Hook + Snow → I don't think I've ever seen these two share a conversation longer than 5 words.
• Rumple + David → I like how David usually isn't afraid to call him out on his shit.
• Belle + Regina → I like how Belle usually isn't afraid to call her out on her shit.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

Those would be interesting, except Rumple and David... we've seen them together in the Enchanted Forest before.  

 

Though what I want the most are Emma/David and Emma/Snow scenes that last more then 30 seconds and aren't composed of exposition fairy dialogue.  

[Curio]

Those would be interesting, except Rumple and David... we've seen them together in the Enchanted Forest before.

 

I was thinking of present-day pairings in the current timeline. For example, how would David deal with being stuck doing a task with Rumple in the Underworld?

 

And I think any Emma/Snow/David interaction that's meaningful is sorely needed. I always think about how awesome it would have been if instead of the Emma/Regina road trip we got in 4B, that it was an Emma/Snow/David road trip instead. Who would call shot gun? Who would be stuck sitting in back? (Based on Emma's mood towards them at that point, maybe they'd both want to sit in back.) Who would try to make awkward conversation and attempt to lighten the egg baby mood? Who would be the backseat driver? 

Edited February 22, 2016 by Curio

[KAOS Agent]

Would Emma take them on a detour past some of the crappy homes she lived in as a child? Would she drive past sixteen different elementary schools telling tales of the three months she spent at each? How about when they got to New York she takes them to see her awesome apartment and points out how she left Storybrooke homeless and unemployed with an 11 year old depending on her and shows them how hard she worked to create a great life for them. I would kill for Snowing to see Emma's world just to give them an understanding of how different their worlds really are.

[Camera One]

That's why it would be interesting and emotionally resonant.  But we can't have that on this show.  

[Rumsy4]

 

I would kill for Snowing to see Emma's world just to give them an understanding of how different their worlds really are.

 

Snow got defensive when Emma just mentioned the wardrobe in 4B. She would close her eyes and go "lalala" if Emma attempted this.

[KAOS Agent]

But didn't the show do a whole thing about how Emma's "lalalalala I can't hear you" was wrong? Why does this show refuse to acknowledge that that's a two way street. It's not just an Emma issue. Her parents (and Regina too) need to face the realities of Emma's world. If Emma needed to walk in their shoes to change her perception, isn't the opposite also true? I find it ridiculous that the show tells us Emma's denial is bad and her walls need to come down when they refuse to show that others ignoring the reasons for those walls and their part in it is equally wrong. The eggnapping would have been a good time to do that because then it wouldn't just be about Emma and her "punishing" her parents by showing how her life was, but also demonstrate how they did the same thing to Lily.

[Camera One]

I don't think the show is trying to actively highlight that Emma is bad, though that's definitely how it turns out.  The Writers solely rely Emma's "walls" to write character growth and moments for Emma.  4A and 5A's "lessons" for Emma were essentially the same.  In 4A, Emma's magic goes out of control and she tries to go it alone.  In 5A, Emma becomes the Dark One and she tries to go it alone.  The story is more about her than about her parents, who are not given these storylines for their own growth.  They remain static.

 

That's why your suggestion of Snowing going out into the world without magic and seeing Emma's life as a child would have been so much more rewarding.   The Eggnapping story had Snowing onscreen, but that story was not really written to give them growth or development.  That subplot masqueraded as an exploration the Snowing/Emma relationship, but it was actually all about the "mystery" and the "surprise" twists involving Maleficent, Lily, The Apprentice and The Author.  The whole "faith in Emma" thing as a baby, when they didn't even know her and were operating on ridiculously unreliable information, should not have been a parallel to their faith in Emma as an adult.  The latter had much to explore and room for real growth and development in the Emma/parents relationship, but not the former.  

Edited February 22, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

I find it ridiculous that the show tells us Emma's denial is bad and her walls need to come down when they refuse to show that others ignoring the reasons for those walls and their part in it is equally wrong.

This. I feel like Emma's realism and caution is always portrayed as something bad she needs to overcome. She's constantly pushed to embrace magic and fairy tales, then berated for not having hope like her parents. You know, it's pretty easy to have hope when you've got people surrounding you with support  and everything tends to work out for you. Emma did not have that luxury, thus Snow (and Charming, by extension) comes off as hypocritical.

 

In 3A, Snow tells Emma she's not the child they wanted. In 3B, she doesn't give her any good reason to stay in Storybrooke nor does she show any signs of missing her in the Missing Year. In 4A, she shows contempt for her magic. In 4B, she doesn't have the faith that she will steer away from the darkness. Then in 5A, she does nothing to approach her or support her. How can you blame Emma for doing things alone when you do nothing to amend the situation yourself? I can confidently say that Snow does not believe in her daughter. She holds her up against a high standard, then drops her whenever the Savior is not needed. 

 

 

[mjgchick]

Its so weird that they made Snow White of all people cynical about her own child. It just feels so wrong. Mary Margaret who was Emma's friend at the time had more faith in her as a total stranger than Snow does with her daughter. I wish the writers would see how they write Emma's relationship with her parents. Why do they not see this? One thing I've noticed from a lot of different shippers is that it looks like Snowing (mostly Snow.) doesn't give a damn about Emma. If you're going to give the charming family angst dont keep them apart for episodes and then end it on them hugging it out. That's just boring.

[Camera One]

It's because in order to make the "Emma has walls" work, they need to have her react to something that would make her go further within herself.  They can't use Regina since they're selling this great friendship, and they don't use Hook because they're selling this epic romance, so they use Snow for this purpose.  Who cares this goes against Snow's supposedly hopefulness.  And again, having Snow say these things does not develop Snow in any way.  It just provides conflict for Emma's character moments.  Or it helps to build the Regina and Hook ships (eg. paraphrasing... 'No one understands me as much as you do, Regina, especially not my parents' or 'Even your mother was afraid you'd give in to the darkness, but not me').  The Writers don't want you to be angry at Regina or Hook, while they can make Snowing "grey" at the same time by being closed-minded and reactionary towards Emma.  Win-win, in their books.  But no time shall be allotted to resolving the Emma/Snowing conflicts because ultimately, their goal was to have Emma realize that she needs to bring the walls down, usually with the help of Regina, Hook, Henry, or a guest star of the arc like Elsa.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Camera One

[mjgchick]

I don't mind being upset with Snowing and their mistakes being some of the cause of Emma's walls (because seriously Regina, Neal and Rumple are more at fault on this.) but damn at least continue with the writing. Don't start the conflict and go straight to the ending with no middle.

[Rumsy4]

It's so annoying that it's always Emma's fault when it comes to conflict with her parents. 5A was the most egregious, because Snow and Charming didn't even attempt to connect with Dark Emma in Storybrooke. Snow's one line about "if she would only talk to us" was particularly irritating. Go camp out in front of Emma's house until she relents. Hold up placards. Do something!

The Writers don't want you to be angry at Regina or Hook, while they can make Snowing "grey" at the same time by being closed-minded and reactionary towards Emma.

 

When it comes to Regina, of course, the Regina Exception Clause takes priority. ;-) But the writers had no qualms with making Dark Hook say and intend all kinds of bad things to Emma. So, I don't see it as the case with Emma and Hook.

[Shanna Marie]

Of these 8 main characters [Emma, Snow, David, Hook, Regina, Robin, Rumple, and Belle], which unusual combinations would you most like to see paired off on an adventure for an episode?

For a start, I'd like to see:

Hook and Snow -- we really have no idea what she thinks about him as her daughter's boyfriend. We know she was on Team Neal, and she seemed somewhat supportive in Camelot. She also seems okay with using Hook as the Emma Whisperer when she and David are having problems with her, but we really don't know what she thinks about Hook, and it would be nice to see. But even aside from his relationship with Emma, this teamup has some interesting potential because although they appear to be polar opposites on the surface, when you think about it, they're very similar in a lot of ways. They're both primarily driven by love -- in his case, he went in a dark and twisted direction for a while, but still love is a driving force for both of them. They also value honor and courage. They both tend to be hard on themselves. Both of them turned to larceny after suffering a terrible betrayal. He tends to be more ruthlessly pragmatic while she's more idealistic, but then there are times when this role will switch, like her being willing to use the dagger to stop Emma while he insisted on letting Emma choose for herself. So I could see them having a lot of agreements and then some clashes to work out if they had to work together. Actually, they're similar enough that you can imagine that they might have hit it off rather well if they'd met in different circumstances or at different life phases. If there had been a time wrinkle that allowed Lt. Jones to meet Princess Snow, or if Hook (in a rare sober moment) had met Bandit Snow before she met David, things might have gone rather differently. Really, I feel robbed that we didn't get to see the first awkward family dinner after Hook and Emma started dating, at which Snow tried to cram 30 years of parenting into one evening and interrogated him about himself and his history.

 

Belle and Emma -- Belle needs to spend time with someone who actually has a good heart so she can get a sense of what that's like, and maybe Emma could pull off an intervention. Then there's the books/research and action thing that they could team up on. Plus, Emma needs a female friend who's never tried to murder her and who doesn't abuse her, and Ruby's left this world.

 

Rumple and Regina -- we need some kind of payoff to their ongoing feud. He hates her for having imprisoned Belle. We've never really seen her react to learning that he manipulated her into casting the curse so that he could reach his son without having to be the one to pay the price. She didn't get what she wanted out of the curse, and she killed her father to cast it. But they've never actually addressed this. There could be fireworks.

[Curio]

Hook and Snow -- we really have no idea what she thinks about him as her daughter's boyfriend. We know she was on Team Neal, and she seemed somewhat supportive in Camelot. She also seems okay with using Hook as the Emma Whisperer when she and David are having problems with her, but we really don't know what she thinks about Hook, and it would be nice to see.

 

I think what really intrigues me about a potential Hook/Snow team-up is that Killian has never had a mother figure in his life. How would he react to Snow beginning to take on a more mother-in-law role? Would he be kind of weirded out by it at first? Would Snow grab Hook by the ear and drag him away from a potential bar fight? Would Hook purposely try to make Snow uncomfortable by telling people she's his mum? And the fact that they both don't have magic would make their adventure a bit more interesting because they'd have to rely on their sword fighting, archery, and intelligence. I could imagine an adventure with those two would start off with a lot of teasing and smartass quips being thrown back and forth, but they'd respect each other's skills during battle, and would end up having a deep and emotional discussion at night over some drinks.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Curio

[mjgchick]

 

Rumple and Regina -- we need some kind of payoff to their ongoing feud. He hates her for having imprisoned Belle. We've never really seen her react to learning that he manipulated her into casting the curse so that he could reach his son without having to be the one to pay the price. She didn't get what she wanted out of the curse, and she killed her father to cast it. But they've never actually addressed this. There could be fireworks.

That car scene in 4b where Rumple told Regina about his plans with the author seems to suggest he doesn't hate Regina. The fact that he made her a hero in the storybook seems to indicate that. In fact he seems to hate Emma or maybe he's afraid of her because he made the author allow her to have her memories and no power.

 

Regina and David could be interesting. I really liked their dynamic in early S2.

 

Ohh I'd love to see a Bandit Snow and Captain Hook tag team on anything.

Edited February 22, 2016 by mjgchick

[Shanna Marie]

That car scene in 4b where Rumple told Regina about his plans with the author seems to suggest he doesn't hate Regina.

The first thing he did after getting his power back at the beginning of season 2 was send a wraith to kill her because she imprisoned Belle. I guess he got over it or they forgot that. I don't recall a specific, "Okay, I'm done trying to kill you" moment, but then again Regina is best buds with Snow and Emma without any specific "I'm done trying to kill you" moment, so who the hell knows. Belle was opposed to him killing people, so he couldn't get away with it while she was watching, and the fact that Regina is his grandson's adoptive mother might play into things. On the other hand, Rumple was totally willing to let Regina die with everyone else in the shattered sight spell.

 

Did Rumple specify for Regina to be made a hero in the AU, or was that Isaac? Rumple had some specific things he wanted done, like being a hero himself, imprisoning Emma, and making Hook a cowardly deckhand, but I got the impression that Isaac got free rein with everything else, and the making Regina a hero thing was his own twist on villains and heroes. That seemed to be what he was proud of in talking to his fans in his fantasy author life.

 

At any rate, I feel like Regina should have unfinished business with Rumple because they've never dealt with his role in the curse and what happened, other than that one rant of hers blaming him for everything. There should be a lot more antagonism there, as well as more of a power struggle.

[KAOS Agent]

I was reading the obligatory showrunner interviews teasing the new season today and I was marveling at the utter cluelessness of the writers with regards to their own stories. On the Cora/Regina relationship, Adam was talking about the S2 moment where Cora had the "incredible realization" that Regina would have been enough and how great that they can explore their relationship based on this moment. Now this realization was based on the fact that Cora had just had her heart returned to her and it was a nice moment. However, the show has now had two separate storylines where they ditched the whole idea that heartlessness = complete lack of emotion. Apparently, one can even have the most extreme of emotions as Regina was able to share True Love's Kiss without a heart. Based on their own retconning, the Cora/Regina relationship is just as dead as it always was because it was obviously not the lack of a heart that left Cora cold. Everything that happened with Regina in 3B ruined that moment in "The Miller's Daughter" for me because it destroyed the entire premise of Cora's heartlessness. Exploring their relationship in the context of the events of S2 is silly beyond belief. That ship sailed with "A Curious Thing"

[Rumsy4]

It's not like Cora with a heart was mother of the year. She abandoned a baby in the woods for her own selfish advancement. Oh, I forgot--it was all Eva's fault.

[KingOfHearts]

 

That ship sailed with "A Curious Thing"

That episode is notorious for retcons. It's no surprise it follows 3x18.

 

 

Now this realization was based on the fact that Cora had just had her heart returned to her and it was a nice moment.

Yeah, I agree. I like that Regina got that final sense of approval from her mother that she never got her whole life.

[Shanna Marie]

Based on their own retconning, the Cora/Regina relationship is just as dead as it always was because it was obviously not the lack of a heart that left Cora cold. Everything that happened with Regina in 3B ruined that moment in "The Miller's Daughter" for me because it destroyed the entire premise of Cora's heartlessness.

Yeah, if Regina was able to perform a True Love's Kiss without her heart and if Cora was able to abandon a newborn on the side of the road so she could further her own ambitions, then Cora's lack of a heart was not the issue in her relationship with Regina. But I suspect the REC comes into play here, so that Regina is just so super-special and loves so very, very deeply that only she could love enough to give a TLK without a heart, and while Cora could be cold to Zelena while having a heart, she surely would have loved Regina if she'd had a heart. And also, it has to be that evil Snow's fault that Regina and Cora didn't get a chance to have a wonderful, loving relationship after Cora's heart was restored. If Snow hadn't ruthlessly murdered Cora, Cora would have felt her love for Regina, seen the evil of her ways, and changed, and everything would have been okay.

 

Ohh I'd love to see a Bandit Snow and Captain Hook tag team on anything.

Or New, Improved Hook helping Snow rediscover her long-lost Inner Bandit. Darn it, now scenes are playing out in my head. I'm picturing Snow and Hook being stuck together in a tricky situation or being sent on a mission together and she gets prissy about some course of action he recommends. He says something like, "Oh, don't play the prim and proper schoolmistress with me, your highness. Remember, I've met you when you were a bandit who was perfectly willing to conduct larceny to carry out your aims." And then she starts to loosen up and remembers when adventure was fun, with the two of them pulling off some epic swashbuckling, and if we're really lucky, that allows her to get back a little more of her awesome permanently.

[Curio]

But I suspect the REC comes into play here

Yes! The acronym is catching on...

I'm picturing Snow and Hook being stuck together in a tricky situation or being sent on a mission together and she gets prissy about some course of action he recommends. He says something like, "Oh, don't play the prim and proper schoolmistress with me, your highness. Remember, I've met you when you were a bandit who was perfectly willing to conduct larceny to carry out your aims." And then she starts to loosen up and remembers when adventure was fun, with the two of them pulling off some epic swashbuckling, and if we're really lucky, that allows her to get back a little more of her awesome permanently.

 

This is pretty close to the perfect "Snow Gets Her Mojo Back" situation I had playing in my head, too. Come on writers, throw us a bone!

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes! The acronym is catching on...

What does REC stand for?

[Curio]

What does REC stand for?

 

Regina Exception Clause.

[KingOfHearts]

I briefly mentioned this in the Spoilers thread, but...

 

Outlaw Queen doesn't seem to do angst as well as other couples. Regina and Robin don't really "fight" for each other. With Snowing, both have had brushes with death in order to be together. They went through several separations in S1 and actively attempted to reunite every single time. With Rumpbelle, Belle has been persecuted by others and even her own family for being with Rumple. She's been kidnapped and imprisoned for it on more than one occasion. Rumple did attempt to change his life for Belle in S2 and S3. For Captain Swan... 5A. Enough said.

 

Outlaw Queen has had three major "stumbling blocks" over its lifetime. Firstly, Zarian came in to drive a wedge between them. But they still managed to have crypt sex and secret meetings. That problem eventually went away on its own. Secondly, they were separated so Robin could stay with Zarian in New York. Again, that problem went away on its own. The most recent problem was Zarian having a baby. But... A) Regina decided not to care, B) Zelena agreed to visitation rights, C) Regina was able to easily banish Zelena, and D) The Merry Men/Fairies are taking care of it for them. So for the most part, the baby is a non-issue.

 

Oh, there was a fourth, smaller stumbling block. Robin was almost killed by Percival. All Regina had to do was ask the Dark One nicely to revive him. Then later, when Regina was about to sacrifice her life to keep him alive, it turned out she didn't have to. 

 

My case in point is that Robin and Regina have not sacrificed anything for each other. They've had internal conflict and speed bumps, but nothing compared to any other couple. Even when they were cursed, Mary Margaret sacrificed her reputation to be with David. Belle sacrificed her dreams to travel and her relationship with her father. Hook sacrificed the Jolly Roger and his own life for Emma. What price have Regina or Robin paid? Hm? The REC is at play here, people.

[KAOS Agent]

The Regina Exception Clause came in when they had Snow White endorse Regina's affair with a married man. Then the writers were shocked that the audience didn't buy into an epic romance that involves adultery. In S1, even though Mary Margaret and David were really married, it was shown that their affair was a bad thing and it hurt people because based on what the characters knew, it was wrong.  No matter what the reason, it is not okay to have an affair. When Hook talked about leaving with Milah, he admitted to being a villain for breaking up a family. Milah was unhappy with Rumpel and Hook & Milah loved each other, but it was wrong. However, the second the same type of situation involved Regina, it was suddenly an okay thing because reasons.

Edited March 3, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[mjgchick]

Another REC is the whole Regina controlling Emma is her being a friend but when Emma did it to Hook it was a violation, When Snow was going to do it to Emma who was .2 seconds away from murdering someone it was awful as well. I mean Emma made a big deal about not controlling Hook two episodes after being ok with Regina controlling her.

 

A/E loves making Regina do terrible things but then turn around and say what she did was out of love. Her calling Emma stupid was her feeling guilt or whatever even though I didn't see it from her at all or Lana played it wrong.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Outlaw Queen doesn't seem to do angst as well as other couples. Regina and Robin don't really "fight" for each other.

 

I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner with the Marian thing such that they pretty much had to resolve it without Regina or Robin having to do anything to "fight" for the relationship. Regina tortured and murdered Marian. Robin leaving Marian for her murderer is not cool. It's not romantic and it's certainly not rootworthy. You can't have them fighting for a relationship that only came about because Regina murdered the competition. 4A was their attempt to write this story and the audience was pretty vocal in their utter disdain for it. It soured the relationship for many who had actually been fans of the pairing previously. The only way out was to pull a magical redo and make Marian not really Marian at all. Outlaw Queen is back on with no effort from either of the pair.

 

I think the baby plot was meant to be the new obstacle so that they couldn't be accused of making it way too easy for them, but they botched that too by focusing on Regina's pain and her antipathy towards her sister rather than having them deal with it as a couple. Outlaw Queen are shown as super in love and we see no internal strife between the two because they're just so perfect together. It's that awful Zelena that's the problem. We get Regina berating and punishing her sister. We see Regina making all of the decisions. We see Regina planning to write her sister and the baby out of existence. We did not see Regina and Robin having conversations about things. In fact, we were told by Robin that he didn't even feel comfortable expressing his feelings about the baby because it would upset Regina. They don't want to write a relationship for Regina, they simply want to give her something to destroy and be justified in doing so. They used Robin and Pistachio as the reason to do this. 

 

One of the things that Colin said about Captain Swan is that they show that it's hard to be in a relationship and the two work at it, which is what makes it real. They didn't just fall in love and that's it. Outlaw Queen is pretty much the story of two people who fell in love instantly and that's it. 

[YaddaYadda]

They didn't just fall in love and that's it. Outlaw Queen is pretty much the story of two people who fell in love instantly and that's it.

 

I think Outlaw Queen is the story of two people who felt they had to fall in love because fairy dust told them so. Regina freaked out when she saw the lion tat, and the only reason she went near the guy who smelled like forest was that. They had a whole year to fall in love, they didn't. They have nothing in common, at all, so how do you bridge that as a writer? 

 

Fairy dust, that's how! 

 

Plus how else do you explain a woman who was completely closed off to the possibility of moving on from her first love, falling in love within 2 seconds with another man, so much so, that she considers her life ruined when the wife shows up? And same goes for him, saying he'd walk through hell for his Marian, only to consider her a nuisance when she actually does come back.

Edited March 3, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Regina and Robin don't really "fight" for each other.

 

They also don't have fights with each other. And before y'all jump in and say "wait a second, they bickered all the time during the Missing Year," that doesn't really count. (Why don't they still bicker with each other in the present day? Hook and Emma and even Charming and Snow still bicker and tease each other as couples.) I'm talking about deep conversations and reflections about their personalities that affect their relationship. The writers allowed Emma to be wary of Hook at first because of his sketchy past, and they were on screen together for a full season/year before they even had their first kiss—and that was a kiss that didn't even solidify them as an actual couple. The writers allowed Emma to get angry with Hook for taking risks with his life. They allowed Hook to call Emma out for being selfish and called himself a lovesick puppy. These are legitimate issues they have to overcome and weren't just brushed under the rug. I'm trying to remember the last time Robin and Regina were allowed to have an argument with each other that didn't have anything to do with Robin's "code" for staying with his wife. 

 

With Robin and Regina, the writers completely skipped past the biggest arguments they should have had. Sean Maguire in a recent interview talked about why Outlaw Queen works, saying, "They're both damaged people with a bit of a dodgy past and they've got darkness in their pasts. So I think there's something about them that there's a sort of redemption -- there's hope." But we still barely know anything about Robin's "dogdy past." His character always makes it seem like he changed so much from the darker person he used to be, but based on the very few Robin flashbacks we've had, that's not the case. Yes, he was a thief, but he's still kind of a thief in the present, and most of our heroes were also thieves growing up, so he isn't a special case. And when you compare his dodgy past to Regina, the only way he should be able to empathize with her is if he also killed a bunch of people; otherwise, he really has no idea how dark Regina used to be and can't relate to her. 

 

Regina torturing Marian in the past and killing her in the original timeline should have been the driving force of conflict between them in Season 4. As a writer, how do you completely overlook that huge detail? It literally makes no sense to me. If Hook had been responsible for killing Graham or Neal, the writers would have never let it go. But the only time the show mentioned what Regina did to Marian was in a quick conversation with Emma that went like, "I hate you! You brought back my boyfriend's ex!" "Yeah, well, only because you were going to kill her." "Well that was past me, not new me!" "Yeah, I know. You're so much better now. Let's be best friends."

 

I'm trying to put myself in the writers' shoes and think about planning out that Robin/Marian/Regina drama. I would be champing at the bit to see the fallout between Robin and Regina when he finally realizes what Regina did to Marian. And if the writers truly planned the Zelena surprise from the beginning, then there should have been so much more drama between Marian and Regina where Marian played up her torture as much as possible. I wish I could interview the writers about their planning process for all of this, but I have a feeling it'd just circle back to the REC and the fact that it's hard to have an argument with your boyfriend who doesn't really have much of a personality. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

I'm trying to put myself in the writers' shoes and think about planning out that Robin/Marian/Regina drama. I would be champing at the bit to see the fallout between Robin and Regina when he finally realizes what Regina did to Marian.

Not only did they miss out on a source of conflict from Robin's perspective, but Regina's reaction proves to me that she hasn't actually changed, that she isn't an entirely different person now. If she really is different and is a totally different person from the Evil Queen, wouldn't the fact that she'd caused so much pain to someone she loves hit her more? She'd just had that conversation with Robin about what he went through when he lost Marian and how he blames himself. Then she learns that she's the reason he went through that, that it wasn't his fault. It was hers. She separated him and his child from Marian. If she's changed and is a good person with a shred of empathy rather than a narcissistic sociopath, that should destroy her. But instead of her focus being "Oh no, I did that to him!" it's all "my life is ruined." Just as she also didn't seem to feel any guilt about Robin nearly being killed because of her past deeds. She's upset about him dying because she doesn't want to lose him, but she doesn't seem to associate it with her actions.

 

"They're both damaged people with a bit of a dodgy past and they've got darkness in their pasts. So I think there's something about them that there's a sort of redemption -- there's hope."

If that's what they want us to see, then it would help if they ever had a conversation more substantial than talking about how great it is that they're in love. That's again where they missed the opportunity with both the Marian situation and the Percival situation to bring up her past and show how it affects them. The problem is that it doesn't seem to affect her at all. She's not really redeemed so much as disassociating with her own past. Redeemed implies that there's something that's been worked through and that still has some impact, but she's like "that was the old me, so I'm not responsible and have nothing to feel bad about."

[mjgchick]

Regina never feels guilty about anything because everyone reassures her that they've forgiven her or she's a good person now and The Evil Queen is separate from her as if she was cursed. But we'll see Emma, the Charmings or Hook still being called out for their past mistakes.

[Camera One]

I can't believe Eddy said that Beauty and the Beast dance. My respect for him just went down to the Underworld.

 

If they had to choose something RB, at least choose Skin Deep. The dance? They both looked super goofy.

 

Plus we knew Rumple was already thinking about the Hat Box over Belle.  How would that be romantic?

 

These writers are so messed up in so many ways.

[KAOS Agent]

I find it vastly amusing that a writer chose a favorite romantic moment that was not original to the show. However, in a bubble that moment was romantic. They love each other and were enjoying their honeymoon. If you ignore the part where he froze her to cover up his lie about the dagger, which made their whole marriage based on a lie, it was a very cute moment between the two of them and a fun homage to the movie.

[Amerilla]

If they had to choose something RB, at least choose Skin Deep. The dance? They both looked super goofy.

 

Personally, I would have gone with the True Love's Kiss scene in "Skin Deep" or the SB Library scene from "The Crocodile." Where Belle has most effective as a character and where Rumbelle has been strongest is those moments when she's created the space where Rumpel's humanity was allowed to bleed through. As they've turned Rumpel into a more cartoonish character, those moments have been ever fewer and further between.

 

I agree with KAOS about the "bubble." The phone call in "Miller's Daughter" or their wedding vows in the S3 finale are great emotional scenes in the moment, but their impact is diluted by the rest of the story.

 

I never saw BatB so, yeah, it left me cold, but I think the show genuinely enjoys doing those "iconic" Disney moments, so I'm not totally surprised that they would focus on that one. Plus, it was a much longer and more involved piece of choreography than what made it to screen, and RC and EdR were really proud of the end product, so there may be a bit of "yay, actors!" aspect to the praise from people who saw more than the 10 seconds that actually aired.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Amerilla

[Shanna Marie]

That dance scene was borrowed emotion that was more about the movie Beast and Belle than it was about our Rumple and Belle. It really didn't reflect those characters or their relationship. It wasn't a big turning point for them the way it was in the movie. In the movie, that sequence was all about showing how much he was working to change. In the show, it was a bit of theater he put on to cover up for the things he was doing behind her back while he had no intention of really changing. A scene in which one partner in a relationship is putting on a show to cover his deceit of the other partner is not romantic. Do these guys also think it's romantic when a man buys his wife flowers because he feels guilty about cheating on her?

 

Plus, what really irked me was that they showed that clip during the promo they played with OnDemand episodes as the voiceover said the word "good" when talking about the battle between good and evil. No one should ever use the word "good" when Rumple is on the screen. There should never be even the slightest hint that he might be shown as an example of "good." There again, they were going after the iconic moment from the movie in a way that had nothing to do with the scene in the show.

[mjgchick]

I notice the only couple they ever do those iconic moments for now is Rumple/Belle. When was the last time Snow White and Prince Charming had one? The pilot? Everything else is Rumbelle whether its the outfits they make Belle where or that cheesy dancing scene.

[YaddaYadda]

I think the difference between BatB and Snow White's story is that BatB is a whole movie centered around Belle and Beast, whereas Snow White, it's Snow White and the Evil Queen, Snow White and the Dwarfs. Prince Charming shows up when he's needed. For Snowing, they would have to create those iconic moments which they're not interested in. They gave Snowing the heart splitting, and didn't explore it further. That was the end of that.

 

I thought the dance in season 4 was really nice. But for me, it wasn't watching Belle and Rumple from Once. It was like I was watching something else just because Once's version has absolutely nothing to do with the original story.

Edited March 10, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[KingOfHearts]

 

I thought the dance in season 4 was really nice. But for me, it wasn't watching Belle and Rumple from Once. It was like I was watching something else just because Once's version has absolutely nothing to do with the original story.

I would have found it more charming in 3B, even though it wasn't exactly possible. It's the dagger and the hat that tarnish it.

[mjgchick]

Everytime I think about that Neal/Emma scene I just think man he sucked at believing in her. I mean I didn't like him even before their was a face but between him ditching her when she was a kid to him laughing at her magic their was no way I could have ever want Emma with him. They really should've let Henry/Rumple have a scene with him also, maybe it could've made him likable.

[Curio]

After reading all the discussion about the Neal and Emma yellow bug scene and how it would have been more appropriate/impactful/rewarding to see Henry in that scene as well, it got me to thinking...

 

How long did Henry and Neal even bond for? My timeline of Season 2 is a bit fuzzy, but I don't remember a whole lot of bonding time when Tamara was still around, and then they were separated for nearly the entirety of the Neverland arc—including when they got back to Storybrooke and Henry and Pan switched bodies. Neal was able to think about Henry for a year during the missing year, but Henry had absolutely no recollection of him, and in fact, only remembered the bad parts of Neal that abandoned Emma.

 

So why is the narrative trying to tell us that Neal and Henry had this super close relationship where Neal apparently had time to teach Henry how to pick up girls with Yazoo? I can completely understand Henry wanting to get some closure with his biological father that he barely knew and he deserved to have some time closure in that yellow bug scene (probably more than Emma did to be honest), but to put things into perspective, Henry has probably spent more bonding time with Robin and Hook at this point. I don't even know if I'm trying to make any specific point here—I just find it interesting how the show keeps trying to make it seem like the Neal/Henry relationship was super close, when in reality, Henry and Robin/Hook/Charming have arguably closer relationships with Henry.

[mjgchick]

Even the monkey probably knows Henry more. Also Graham.

[Rumsy4]

Henry is an affectionate lad. So I can see him bonding quickly with his dad. Besides, he would be mourning the loss of the chance to get to know his father as much as or more than mourning his absence. 

[Curio]

Henry is an affectionate lad. So I can see him bonding quickly with his dad. Besides, he would be mourning the loss of the chance to get to know his father as much as or more than mourning his absence. 

 

Oh, absolutely. The point I was trying to make is that the show seems to be trying to wedge in more relationship between the two of them than what was actually shown or there. It's realistic for Henry to mourn the fact that he never really got to know his bio father, but it's less realistic for the writers to cram in random Neal/Henry moments that never happened on screen like Yazoo bonding. 

[orza]

It's common in fairy tales and other fiction for people to bond instantly and feel the pain of loss and separation even though according to the calendar they haven't known each other very long. We've seen Emma latch onto people and form attachments, sometimes not very healthy ones, to people she barely knows. She called Lily her best friend even though they only spent a few days together. She worked with Graham for about two weeks and wore his nasty shoe lace on her wrist for ages.

 

Even in the real world a young boy's father is a hugely important figure in his life, even if that father is absent. His mother's boyfriend, no matter how much he likes him, is not in the same class. I can buy that Henry had a bond with Neal that developed off-screen.

[Shanna Marie]

I think with Neal and both Emma and Henry the writers tend to forget their own context and their own timeline.

 

They've retroactively painted Neal as a great hero who was deeply important in Emma's life. If you take the warning scene in that context, it kind of works. However, what they showed us was a guy she was with for a few months more than a decade ago, who betrayed her horribly and abandoned her and avoided her, and then tried to make excuses for his behavior when she found him again, and then was dismissive of her, flaunted his fiancee in her face, and was critical about her choices and unhappy about her use of magic. If you look at the warning scene with that in mind, it comes across as rather creepy and yet another instance of him not believing in her (or perhaps representing the doubts in her own mind). I suppose the fact that he was her first love and one of the few people in her life with whom she bonded, and then the fact that she had his baby might have created a stronger than normal bond for her, but really, he wasn't that big a part of her life. Counting from their first kiss at the end of season 3, she's likely been with Hook longer than she was with Neal (and throw in the false memories of years spent in that tower, in which she remembered being with Hook), and she knew Hook and had worked with him as an ally for a while before they got together.

 

Ditto with Henry. They spent maybe a couple of weeks together, during which time Neal also had his fiancee in town, and then maybe a few minutes on the Jolly Roger before the Pan swap. But I can see that maybe Henry has an idealized dad image that he maps onto Neal, and that's what he misses and mourns, what could have been. If he'd actually spent a few months around Neal on a daily basis, he might have a very different view of him. In reality, Henry has spent a lot more time with Hook than he ever spent with Neal, even just counting the sailing trips and prison breaks we know about. Goodness knows what time they spent together during the six weeks between 4A and 4B. I could also imagine Neal having worked his pickup tricks in during that two weeks. That's the kind of stuff a guy who wants to impress a pre-teen but who knows nothing about kids would likely think of to talk about. "Hey, I'm a dad now, I'd better give him manly advice that will make me look cool." So, yeah, I have no trouble believing that bit. I would hope that as Henry matures and sees more of what a real father can be like, he'll be less fixated on the idea of Neal.

[Amerilla]

Everytime I think about that Neal/Emma scene I just think man he sucked at believing in her.

 

"Oh, look, a bomb! Now, I know you've never diffused a bomb before, and I know if the bomb goes off it's going to kill everyone around you, but that's ok, sweetie-kins, jump in. I believe you." :-)

 

Looking at the scene, I don't see where Neal is saying she's incapable of doing what she's doing - he's not saying he doesn't believe in her, he's saying that it's dangerous and unlikely to go the way she plans (which is objectively true), and that as someone who loves her, he had an obligation to at least try to dissuade her. In real-world terms, that's what any decent, loving friend would do if they saw someone they loved heading into a situation which could hurt them.  

 

(Obviously, the main point of the Swanfire scene was to set up the stakes and have Emma say "f--k it, I'm doing it anyway, because #truelove." You don't get there by having Neal manifest just to say: "Wow, this is awesome! You and Hook, man, how frigging cute you guys are! They could make you into those little Funko Pops! What an epic romantic quest! And Henry getting to see the Underworld? B-E-A-U-T-iful. Fantastic parenting, and no, I'm not being facecious." That dosen't move the story and it doesn't make much sense. As it is, the story ended in 5a with a group of alleged adults almost wordlessly deciding to abandon their tiny children on a possibly one-way trip help Emma get her very-dead boyfriend back.)

 

At the risk of having virtual rotten eggs hurled at me at the end of a really sucky week, I've always disagreed with the "Neal didn't believe in Emma" argument. The details were incredibly poorly done (because TS;TW) but in the big pieces of the overall story, Neal was clearly Team Emma. Neal believed that Emma could break the curse and be reunited with her family if she wasn't with him. Neal believed that it was best for her to stay with Henry and for him to be dropped to his near-certain death after Tamara shot him. Neal believed that Emma could save them from Zelena when he sent Hook with the memory potion. Neal believed that Emma could defeat the Wicked Witch if Emma let him die and Rumpel could divulge Zelena's name. At virtually every pivot in the story where he had to make a choice between Emma-as-Savior and his own happiness or safety, he priotitized her and the people that she could help over himself.

 

I think when the story so heavily leans on Neal's status as hero, that's the foundation: that he was someone who was willing to put himself on the line for the greater good, whether it was opening a portal to try save his father's  soul and protect the people who might have been hurt by him, or to put himself at the mercy of the Shadow so the Darling family could stay intact, or casting Emma out of his life, or letting himself die. The fatal flaw is that, even though his intentions are good, there's always unanticipated blowback - Rumpel hurts generations of people in an attempt to find him, the Darlings come after him and lose their family anyway, Emma gives up their child and retreats emotionally, etc.          

 

 

 

I don't even know if I'm trying to make any specific point here—I just find it interesting how the show keeps trying to make it seem like the Neal/Henry relationship was super close, when in reality, Henry and Robin/Hook/Charming have arguably closer relationships with Henry.

 

Well, the writers' mantra is "Tell, Don't Show," so there's that. And Orza is correct about the fairy-tale insta-bond.

 

But, also - Henry is a Stiltskin, and that's how they roll.

 

Malcolm couldn't accept being an adult. His loss of childhood drove him to extremes to return to that state and to hang on to it, no matter who he hurt or what he had do to maintain it.

 

Pre-DO Rumpel couldn't accept the fact that he might not get to be with Bae, to the point where he crippled himself, lost his marriage, and ultimately turned dark in his attempt to outrun fate. Post-DO, he couldn't let Bae be gone, he couldn't let go of his mistake, he couldn't turn back the clock, and he hurt generations of people in the attempt to get back what he lost. Even when he finds Bae, he loses him again, and again, and again.

 

Nealfire is a little different...his wound, his void, is family and home. He starts out in a loving home, and he loses it. He finds a new family in the Darlings, and he loses it. He looks to a future with Emma, and he loses it. He looks to a future with Tamara, and it's a dupe. He wants to be with Emma and Henry, and it gets him killed. The moment that happiness was in his grasp, it was snatched away. 

Which brings us to Henry. He grew up fatherless and well aware of it. Emma presents him with the idea of Neal as a heroic, fallen firefighter. When he meets Neal, he's primed to see a heroic figure, and that's reinforced by Neal stealing a pirate ship to take them to safety and joining in the fight against Cora. Plus, Neal was a child in Neverland for decades, so during the brief period they spend together, he's the cool adult who can play and fake sword-fight even more than Charming. Then Neal "dies." They reunite in Neverland, but really only have a day or two before Curse 2.0. And that's the last Henry ever sees of him, apparently forever.

 

So Neal is in Henry's life just long enough to become a larger-than-life figure who is now lost to him, and that creates a void that could manifest in different ways over the rest of the story. Henry's overall actions could be dictated by the desire to somehow get Neal back from the Beyond, or losing his "real" father could be the thing that prevents him from ever fully bonding with father-figures like Hook or Robin. Or, since it's this show, it could fade into the background and never be mentioned again.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Amerilla