Relationships: Speed Dating

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

They spent years not caring about Cisco and Kamilla and did nothing to remedy that this season but they think their zero fans need to see some PDA before they leave?

Years? Cisco and Kamilla have been dating a year at most. I mean, her character was introduced last season, right?

I've yet to see the last two episodes, but the episode before that, we did see Barry and Iris hug at least.

I guess it's due to the stricter COVID protocols in Vancouver? Because soaps here have already lifted the restrictions and some couples are already kissing. Or maybe it's up to the actors' comfort level.

[Starry]

Kamilla was introduced as a love interest in the second half of season 5. Technically, Cisco dated her longer than Cynthia and to me it still looks like TPTB were more interested in his romance with Cynthia. If it seems that Cisco and Kamilla haven't been dating that long it's only because they never cared about them as a couple. Maybe it's just me but Caitlin's love interests have all been more memorable than Kamilla and they all lasted one season tops.

Barry and Iris hugged in this episode too. They also held hands. Other shows that film in Vancouver don't have protocols that are this strict. It took eleven episodes for a Flash couple to kiss. On other shows they kissed much much earlier.

[Trini]

37 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Years? Cisco and Kamilla have been dating a year at most. I mean, her character was introduced last season, right?

Kamilla was introduced in the back half of Season 5. I don't fault anyone for not remembering that, the show has put so little effort into Kamisco.

37 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

... Barry and Iris hug at least.

The theme of this season.  😕 😔 😭

37 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I guess it's due to the stricter COVID protocols in Vancouver? Because soaps here have already lifted the restrictions and some couples are already kissing. Or maybe it's up to the actors' comfort level.

It's not Vancouver, judging by several other shows that film there. It must be a set by set, actor by actor thing.

 

1 hour ago, Starry said:

...

Are they going to do the same with WestAllen or do we need to wait until season 8? Their last scene was actually pretty good but wouldn't it make more sense for them to kiss when they are trying to make a baby than in a random episode somewhere down the line? Speaking of, if Iris doesn't get pregnant right away are they going to acknowledge it or is this another "because plot" scenario and we won't hear them talk about it until

  Reveal spoiler

their future speedster kids show up in the 150th episode?

It better be the former but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the latter. ...

 

Maybe they'll relent and give us a kiss for the season finale?

It would be typical for this show to bring up a major plot point then not mention it again for 3 episodes; but they've only got so many episodes before {spoiler} shows up, so I would hope there's at least one more mention of them trying for a baby before then.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Trini

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

Speaking of subtlety, Frost and Chillblane are so corny and cringy I can't believe someone thought this is what chemistry and sexual tension look like. He's obnoxious and I see zero romance there.

I'm not even a fan of either character, but I was kinda interested in seeing an enemies to lovers type relationship; but the writing and chemistry just aren't there. And then narratively, you can't really root for them since they made Chillblaine an actual murderer. There's nowhere for this "romance" to go.

[adora721]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

Chillblaine an actual murderer. There's nowhere for this "romance" to go.

And Killer Frost is a human trafficking accesory to murder who got out of a life sentence after a few days in prison on probation for one act of good behavior after pleading guilty to 3 felonies. There's no moral compass these wrtiers won't bend or break to make them "acceptable" as a real couple in love. I've lost any faith that there's even a compass. Tomorrow, they'll both be celebrated as the next great love story we all should aspire to want. 😖

Edited May 27, 2021 by adora721

[Trini]

Sucks that they can't kiss (yet?), but the last WestAllen loft scene saved the episode:

 

And then this was just funny for a couple reasons;

Barry being coy with his wife of 3 years because they can't talk about sex on this "family" show. It was still cute though!

But this is about the level of sexiness I expect from this show. I just wish the showrunners/editors would let them do this more than once a season since this level is already way below CW 'standards'.

-----

They posted the clip on twitter:

 

[Starry]

On 5/29/2021 at 10:03 AM, Featherhat said:

I was referring to Lauriver on Arrow. They'd already had their other big comic canon OTP crash so hard they needed to restart with a completely new relationship because a lot of people couldn't get passed the sister swapping. Why add a weird wrinkle to their new relationship? 

I think having Joe as his guardian for over a decade and THEN pushing so hard on Barry/Joe father-son dynamic in the back half of S1 through a lot of S2 and beyond which is a lot of what people remember when thinking about them, does just make some people raise an eyebrow, even if you accept that best friends/baby love overruled being raised together from puberty.  It's not a big deal at this point but it was a needless detail is what I'm getting at. 

I like WA and I think they have chemistry which overcomes a lot of the poor writing choices and I love JPK as their daughter and hope to enjoy their son. 

The show did that with Barry and Joe but also presented Barry and Iris as true love which is another thing people should remember when thinking about them. The writers wanted to have it both ways and I was fine with that. I shipped actual stepsiblings on other shows and don't think that two people who have an established friendship/romance should start to retroactively think of the other as a sibling just because of a sudden change in their family dynamic. I never had a problem with what the show was telling me but I suspected others would and I also knew there was an ugly tendency in fandom to think of interracial couples as "siblings dating" which added another layer to the issue. At this point I am just glad that WestAllen managed to weather the storm and that they did it without the writers having to add too much drama and love triangles to spice up the romance.

I believe that those who are genuinely triggered by the backstory stopped watching the show eons ago. The rest I chalk it up to regular shipping preference or Iris hate. At the end of the day no couple is universally loved. If people don't care about the unusual family dynamic they may have a problem with something else like the best friends to lovers trope or Barry loving Iris too much and for too long or the fact that it's not two nerds dating or even Iris being "too hot" for Barry (I found out that's an actual reason some people give when they want to explain why they don't ship WestAllen).

What doomed Lauriver for me was the cheating more than the sister swapping. I can accept a couple cheating with each other but not cheating on each other. I could have shipped Oliver and Sara if I cared for the writing but I didn't.

[BeautifulFlower]

I saw someone mentioned this on reddit, and I agree. It makes no sense for Killer Frost to have a crush on Chillblaine. If it just an attraction, then that is fine. However, to have a crush, it means there is something about his personality that she likes. He's a criminal who tried to kill her. What is there to like about him?

The person on reddit said it made no sense as the writers are desperately trying to show her turning over a new leaf. Yet, here she is crushing on a criminal.

[Starry]

I look at Frost like she's a teenager having a sexual awakening. I know she's an adult but the narrative treats her like she's twenty years younger than her actual age and just started living. Even DP commented on Frost being surprised by these feelings like she doesn't know what having crushes means. In this context, her being into a "bad boy" kinda makes sense to me.

The writing for this couple is extremely juvenile with the bad puns and Chillblaine being always shirtless. He's the first person Frost has been attracted to. It's nothing but lust. Maybe this will be part of Frost's exploration phase and then she'll get over it and find a more suitable love interest or we'll be treated to a hamfisted redemption arc for Chillblaine the murderer.

[adora721]

Killer Frost's crush on Chillblaine makes perfect sense. She's a narcissist; he's a narcissist. She tried to murder people unapologectically; he murdered someone unapologetically. Cait liked Hunter Zolomon and Hunter said he saw something dark in Cait - i.e., Killer Frost.  Birds of a feather, KF and Chillblaine, if you ask me.

[Trini]

Cute little scenes like this are the kind of thing I've wanted more of with Barry & Iris. This show was never going to be explicit, so this works. It's ridiculous that there hasn't been more of this when it's not that hard, fits the "family" tone, and Grant and Candice are so good when they get to be flirty/funny.

 

[Trini]

^ That clip is turning out to be one of the CW channel's most popular videos. Give the people what they want, Wallace!

This was also a cute moment; Barry was about to turn down the offer to do more "cataloging" (and Iris knew this) - LOL:

[Trini]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Its like the writers saw other shows that did the "we bicker because we secretly like each other" romance arc so they tried to replicate that dynamic without understanding why those couples work, and forgetting to find an actor that had chemistry with the character they are getting put together with. Their "flirting" is so awkward and forced, I don't feel like they are into each other at all, especially Frost who just seems annoyed by him (which is her default personality to be fair), Frost and Chillblaine have no chemistry, Chillblaine is a mega loser, and I have no clue why Frost would be attracted to this sleazy asshole who set her up to go to jail for the pettiest reasons imaginable. Of course, everyone forgave Frost right away for far worst things, and forgiving everyone for anything ever is the theme of the season, so I guess its consistent at least.

Besides issues with the actors ('okay' at best; little chemistry), this 'romance' is awkward because whatever dynamic they're going for doesn't work with these characters. Is it "good girl/bad boy"? Since the show has already made Frost a 'bad girl' in contrast to Caitlin, that doesn't really work. Also since they've spent 4 seasons trying to show that Frost is reformed and 'good' now, it's a step back that she's falling for a murderer and criminal. And they're not even doing that trope where she sees good in him and wants to reform him; they're into each other (kinda?) for the shallowest of reasons.

This pairing might have worked with a better setup for Chillblaine and a different story.

[Trini]

I wish the writers had taken time to let Barry & Iris have an actual, honest conversation about having children, before their actual children showed up (...again).

In this season where we had the Forces as their pseudo-children; them actually deciding to try to get pregnant; and the back half where there was so much filler, we should have heard them talk to each other (and perhaps Joe and Cecile) about their hopes, fears, and even the logistics of having speedster children.

I know this is partly an action show, but a conversation could have been spread out over an episode. Maybe there was a talk planned in the episodes that Candice missed, but it should have happened before then, anyway.

But now that Nora and Bart have arrived and we, and Barry & Iris, know that their family turns out fine and happy, it seems unnecessary. But it is a necessary conversation to have considering all the traumas they've been through with their own parents, with the first Nora, and with Barry as a metahuman.

[Trini]

I did like that the episode showed that the West-Allen are a happy and functional family in the future; so glad we're not getting a repeat of Season 5.

[Starry]

On 7/14/2021 at 8:48 PM, Trini said:

I wish the writers had taken time to let Barry & Iris have an actual, honest conversation about having children, before their actual children showed up (...again).

I agree with this. I loved their final scene in 7x11 but I didn't like how tacked on it felt and the Forces arc didn't work for me. I hated that Barry said that maybe he and Iris weren't meant to be parents because they didn't know how to handle the Forces. Those people are not their kids no matter how many times the writers wanted to push that plot point down my throat. And of course a pep talk from Joe is all it took them to calm down, get their confidence back and start a real family by the end of the episode. It felt rushed and there wasn't enough character exploration.

Iris' fears about motherhood were touched on when Psych attacked her but there was nothing outside of that. And I don't understand how she and Barry never thought about what it meant for a regular human to carry speedster babies. This is actually something that should have been discussed back in season 4 when they mentioned having kids right before their wedding. Starting a family was always in the cards for them but they seemingly never asked themselves if metas could have kids or if their human partners could carry a pregnancy to term. It's something they could have talked about with an expert like Caitlin. It could have given her and Iris a reason to spend some time together but the show has always been about plot before characters.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 7/16/2021 at 3:43 PM, Starry said:

I agree with this. I loved their final scene in 7x11 but I didn't like how tacked on it felt and the Forces arc didn't work for me. I hated that Barry said that maybe he and Iris weren't meant to be parents because they didn't know how to handle the Forces. Those people are not their kids no matter how many times the writers wanted to push that plot point down my throat. And of course a pep talk from Joe is all it took them to calm down, get their confidence back and start a real family by the end of the episode. It felt rushed and there wasn't enough character exploration.

Iris' fears about motherhood were touched on when Psych attacked her but there was nothing outside of that. And I don't understand how she and Barry never thought about what it meant for a regular human to carry speedster babies. This is actually something that should have been discussed back in season 4 when they mentioned having kids right before their wedding. Starting a family was always in the cards for them but they seemingly never asked themselves if metas could have kids or if their human partners could carry a pregnancy to term. It's something they could have talked about with an expert like Caitlin. It could have given her and Iris a reason to spend some time together but the show has always been about plot before characters.

No offense, but what would make Caitlin an expert? She's not an OB-GYN, so how would she be able to tell if regular people can carry a child from a metahuman? Considering Central City has had metas for 7 years, I'm sure there are plenty who have gained more knowledge on this matter than Caitlin. 

I hope when Iris gets pregnant, they don't say or show that Iris goes to Caitlin for her appointments. Again, she's not licensed for that. She also shouldn't have the materials needed any way. He'll, Caitlin shouldn't even have surgical equipment. 

[Starry]

The writers have made Caitlin an expert in every science field. She's the person they go to when they have anything that remotely resembles a medical issue. Didn't she perform surgery on Ultraviolet just two episodes ago? It was Caitlin who delivered Jenna and when Cecile was starting to get powers from the pregnancy, Joe brought her to Caitlin to see what was happening.

Caitlin's role in season 1 was to study Barry's meta DNA. It was her who figured out why he kept passing out. It's not a leap to assume she would be able to tell if a meta can have kids and if regular humans can carry meta babies. Barry himself could probably figure it out on his own if he put his mind to it but when I made my comment I was trying to kill two birds with one stone. Barry and Iris should have had a real conversation about what it meant to have kids as a meta/with a meta and that could have been a good opportunity to give Iris some scenes with Caitlin.

Now you know Iris will go to Caitlin for her appointments. It's either that or they won't show anything at all. The show is predictable and they are on a budget. They won't introduce a random OB-GYN just for that when they can use Caitlin.

[legaleagle53]

On 7/16/2021 at 1:43 PM, Starry said:

Iris' fears about motherhood were touched on when Psych attacked her but there was nothing outside of that. And I don't understand how she and Barry never thought about what it meant for a regular human to carry speedster babies. This is actually something that should have been discussed back in season 4 when they mentioned having kids right before their wedding. Starting a family was always in the cards for them but they seemingly never asked themselves if metas could have kids or if their human partners could carry a pregnancy to term. It's something they could have talked about with an expert like Caitlin. It could have given her and Iris a reason to spend some time together but the show has always been about plot before characters.

Whether metas can have kids or whether Iris can carry a pregnancy to term are moot questions now, since the demonstrated future existences of Nora and Bart clearly prove that the answer to both is YES. The only remaining question now is "When," and that, too has already been answered now. Nora is 26 and Bart is 19 in 2049. That means that she will be born sometime in 2023 and he will be born sometime in 2030. So next year is when Iris will get pregnant with Nora, unless the timeline gets altered again as a result of the Godspeed Wars.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

No offense, but what would make Caitlin an expert? She's not an OB-GYN, so how would she be able to tell if regular people can carry a child from a metahuman? ...

 

2 hours ago, Starry said:

The writers have made Caitlin an expert in every science field. She's the person they go to when they have anything that remotely resembles a medical issue. <...>

Now you know Iris will go to Caitlin for her appointments. It's either that or they won't show anything at all. The show is predictable and they are on a budget. They won't introduce a random OB-GYN just for that when they can use Caitlin.

I don't want Caitlin to be Iris' doctor either, but I'm resigned to the fact that the show's formula is baked in at this point.

But who knows, lately they seem to have made the effort to avoid Candice and Danielle having scenes together, so maybe they'll surprise us and do something different.

[Starry]

10 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Whether metas can have kids or whether Iris can carry a pregnancy to term are moot questions now, since the demonstrated future existences of Nora and Bart clearly prove that the answer to both is YES.

They are moot questions now but they weren't back in season 4 when Barry and Iris mentioned having kids the episode before their wedding.

 

8 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't want Caitlin to be Iris' doctor either, but I'm resigned to the fact that the show's formula is baked in at this point.

But who knows, lately they seem to have made the effort to avoid Candice and Danielle having scenes together, so maybe they'll surprise us and do something different.

Now that I think about it, they can use a combination of Barry and Gideon for the appointments 😂

[adora721]

On 7/16/2021 at 1:43 PM, Starry said:

This is actually something that should have been discussed back in season 4 when they mentioned having kids right before their wedding.

Agreed. Or they could have talked about around the lead up to Crisis because Iris wasn't pregnant and they both believed Barry would die. How come Iris didn't mention like creating an embryo or freezing her eggs and his sperm before Crisis? This would be especially important after losing Nora at the end of season 5.

[Trini]

I'm really glad we got the vow renewal ceremony; I think it was necessary on more than one level, and it was a nice way to end the season. Barry & Iris needed a wedding do-over for a while, and I'm glad that their family and friends were able to be there and participate. Jay and Joan kinda representing Barry's parents was a nice touch. Cisco adding a bit of levity was great; and Bart serenading his parents was just the cherry on top!

Then of course, we finally got a kiss after a season and a half, and a year and a half. (Hopefully there's more PDA next season?) And Ipersonally liked that Iris has now had 4 fab wedding dresses.

It was also great seeing the West-Allens fighting together as a family, and in particular Bary & Iris fighting back-to-back, a true power couple!

 

But even while their status is established, this season I think the writers dropped the ball with failing to include Barry in Iris' trauma and recovery from being in the Mirrorverse (and that "arc" being way too short); and not deeply delving into Barry & Iris' subplot about starting a family. Dialog from the past season has shown that they both had fears about parenthood, and I wish they would have had them both discuss that. Wallace thinks that since their kids showed up from the future, which means 'everything turns out fine' and there's no need to explore more of that part of the characters. It's really disappointing that there's so much stuff with them they could do - from things already established, but the writers are content to be superficial about the central relationship.

------

In other couples, Eric seems to really like both Chester and Allegra separately, so maybe pairing them could work out. I'm not opposed to it, but I don't really need it either. If they stay friends it's fine.

I didn't like that they had to have Cecile suggest marriage for her and Joe. It always seemed out of character to me that Joe - who is fairly traditional - hadn't married her yet. Maybe the writers wanted to wait until Barry & Iris were hitched properly? (More likely it just wasn't important enough to address - sigh) Whatever the reason, it's overdue.

[Trini]

Again, who is making the decisions to cut these scenes??

https://tvline.com/2021/10/08/the-flash-deleted-scene-season-7-episode-18-iris-vow-renewals/

https://www.etonline.com/the-flash-barry-and-iris-reconnect-in-romantic-season-7-deleted-scene-exclusive-173232

I would have liked the Nora/Iris scene to stay, (we could use some mother-daughter bonding, and female bonding in general) but that's forgivable since it wasn't integral to the episode as a whole. However, the Barry/Iris scene should have stayed since it bookended the Mirrorverse arc in which they were both directly involved. From the relationship perspective, we needed to see them reunited and reconnecting, after acknowledging their separation for half the season. This happy ending was needed after all the trauma Barry & Iris went through.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Trini

[Starry]

I think they didn't want to get back to Iris' time sickness until season 8 and that's probably part of the reason why the scene with Nora got cut. Though I wish they had kept it in.

The WestAllen one? They are flirting at home instead of discussing the villain. Sorry guys it had to go 🙄

[Trini]

Speed hug was really sweet! Hope they let them kiss besides the finale, though.

 

[Trini]

The relationships analysis episode of the Ladies with Gumption podcast is out; Episode 195 (Love Boat: Part 11) discusses the Season 8 Flash relationships, post-Armageddon.

They are on various platforms (iTunes, Google Play, Spoitfy), but here are a couple other links:

https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/ladieswgumption

https://www.stitcher.com/show/ladies-with-gumption

I agree with most of their takes; but especially about how it's not only about the romances, but how it effects the characters and the storytelling of the season as a whole.

[Trini]

Aww! Truly lasted longer than a lot of TV couples.

 

[Trini]

Was a bumpy ride at times, but Barry & Iris made it from pilot to series finale:

 

[Trini]

Aww, this is a really great shot of the West-Allens: