Spoilers, Speculation & All Things Media!

verdana · July 18, 2016

7 hours ago, break21 said:

My recollection is Beckett's transformation happened in Season 3 when CBS started Hawaii 5-0. I suspect Marlowe and the network felt like they had to compete against the women running around in swim-suits on that show. My biggest problem with this is, when they sexed her up, they dumbed her down. That's when she started losing her gun, getting kidnapped, etc. Up until then, I really liked Beckett as a character. After that, I couldn't relate. As for Castle, as the writing got worse it felt like Nathan tried to do too much at times to make up for it.

They definitely made her less relatable to me as time went on, others said the changes made were natural development because Castle brought Kate out of her shell but it didn't come over that way to me unfortunately. I stopped thinking of her as anything close to a real cop about S4 and by S8 she had become an expert at being kidnapped and was as far removed from any police captain I've seen as it's possible to be. I still can't get over that scene In What Lies Beneath with her laying down in that skin tight dress on the couch in her office when talking to this guy. WTF was that about? Showing off Katic's sheer "hotness" by the looks of it, that was embarrassing and completely inappropriate for the character and situation.

The writers also swapped parts of their personas around whilst emphasizing in more obvious ways her alpha status whilst making him look like a beta. In reality they were both alphas at the start but that slowly changed. It got to the stage that when he said "we're both alphas" during the shell picture exchange the look Beckett gave at that point told you all you need to know about how she saw him (and by extension how the writers saw Castle) it was treated as a joke to share with the audience whilst he remains oblivious. It made me wince at how far the character had fallen from the heady days when they didn't feel the need to dumb down and weaken his character to make her look better and stronger, when his masculinity, cocky self confidence, slightly dangerous streak and strength wasn't seen as some kind of threat they needed to extinguish.

Beckett had to be an expert at so many varied things not to mention being force fed that she was "extraordinary" - SHOW don't tell as the saying goes - and they were showing that at the start in lots of different subtle ways but they had to overdo it and start hitting me over the head with her sheer awesomeness, expanding her knowledge bank in areas that had me eye rolling in exasperation. She ended up going from slightly dorky, work obsessed cop with a whole load of bad fashion choices in her wardrobe to a woman blessed with the most distracting beauty pageant hair who looked like she'd stepped off a catwalk runway. Whilst she became this ultra bad ass, socially confident, well dressed and sophisticated woman poor Castle became socially inept, badly dressed, clueless and wishy washy. I knew which actor got the better deal no question especially in the clothing department lol. Both changes felt forced, you can argue the case on the Beckett transformation but Castle's? That made no sense whatsoever.

I agree may be the way Castle started behaving at the end was a result of NF having to compensate for the poor writing, whatever the reason I wish they'd have asked him to tone down some of it in the OTT gurning to camera and physical slapstick (bumping into pillars, knocking over piles of books) it became too much. Richard Castle was never a buffoon.

Both actors didn't have it easy at times with some of the shit they had to shovel towards the end that's for sure. Katic should have definitely demanded extra cash for having to utter that ridiculous "but you were off saving the world!" line, how on earth she got through that without cracking up I don't know.

Edited July 18, 2016 by verdana

madmaverick · July 18, 2016

On 7/17/2016 at 3:06 PM, verdana said:

I agree with one commentator who said that the development of the characters bizarrely waned as the show went on which obviously isn't the way it should be, I found all the characters were far better fleshed out in the first three or four seasons and then everything seemed to either stall or worse regress.

May be the person who said that Marlowe only had in his head a story for the beginning during the WTWT planned out and then was completely lost after that as to what do with them as a couple was on the money, I certainly felt the show started to unravel in places in S4 as the tried to drag out them circling each other and that accelerated in S5 once they were finally together.

Don't know if it was me but I definitely agree with that opinion. Thanks for linking to that article about Milmar. Interesting read. No doubt the title Take Two references the actress turned P.I., but given how the concept of the show appears to more than echo Castle, I also find some irony in it being called Take Two. Will they learn from their mistakes second time round or doomed to repeat them as they go about mining from the same well? Judging from some of the things they say here, I suspect not. Despite their protestations that it's different to Castle, I suspect they'll be retreading a lot of familiar territory and the same old beats on their new show. Early season Castle was good so they can replicate that on their new show ;), but they were shown to be fresh out of ideas on Castle a few seasons in with little to offer beyond the WTWT story, so it'll be interesting to see if they can improve on that record on a new show if it lasts that long. Smart that they're going beyond murders on this new show given how tired the COTWs became and they must know it. ;) But they ran out of steam on both the COTWs and the relationship writing on Castle so that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in me in their new show. A lot would depend (again) on casting.

I think it's interesting that as creators, they've spend around a decade on a show like Castle, appear to have grown creatively tapped out, and then the new thing they pitch is another show like Castle. They know what sells or this is what they think they write best? Is Marlowe just a one trick WTWT crime procedural pony? Their pitches about a Derrick Storm spinoff or that Marlowe show didn't take off so it's back to a Castle re-tread? I read somewhere that Castle's disappearance storyline and all that spy conspiracy stuff was Marlowe's attempt to tie it to Derrick Storm somewhere down the line, but the network didn't go for a Storm spinoff in the end. Would not be surprised if Marlowe developed the Castle as P.I. storyline as well as a way to test the waters for his eventual non Castle P.I. show. I find that more plausible than any unsubstantiated conspiracy about it being Nathan who wanted a P.I. storyline.

On 7/17/2016 at 3:35 PM, verdana said:

I'd like to think that MilMar have learn't some valuable lessons from the 6.23 debacle with any future show they produce but suspect not.

Ditto.

What Marlowe said about the reinvention of characters along a show's run may be true, but the problem as I perceive it is Marlowe reinvented the characters in ways that lost sight of what made them more unique and appealing originally. For example, I found Beckett's "strengths" to become overblown as she became characterised as this supermodel supercop badass best at everything and every man's dream, while her "weaknesses" either didn't come across as organic to me, or made her unlikable, whereas I would have wanted the characters to become more rootable at their vulnerable best. They lost sight of a balance both within characters, and this goes for both Castle and Beckett in their relative strengths and weaknesses, and also they lost sight of a balance between the characters. Balance is so important when your show revolves around one key relationship. Somewhere along the line they chose to give Beckett all the power and make her the only alpha when it really should have been a relationship of alphas, of equals. Castle was appealing when he was a self-confident man who was fine with women taking the lead, but he becomes a lot less appealing when he's characterized as being an emasculated pushover too much of the time.

Marlowe also talked about keeping characters in conflict. I think he, Hawley, and a whole lot of other writers believe that's the only way to go. ;)

More eye rolling as he talked about the importance of a long term arc so that people felt satisfaction and pay off at the end of a season. Yeah, except he was a shitty writer of all those so called long term arcs.

2 hours ago, verdana said:

They definitely made her less relatable to me as time went on, others said the changes made were natural development because Castle brought Kate out of her shell but it didn't come over that way to me unfortunately. I stopped thinking of her as anything close to a real cop about S4 and by S8 she had become an expert at being kidnapped and was as far removed from any police captain I've seen as it's possible to be. I still can't get over that scene In What Lies Beneath with her laying down in that skin tight dress on the couch in her office when talking to this guy. WTF was that about? Showing off Katic's sheer "hotness" by the looks of it, that was embarrassing and completely inappropriate for the character and situation.

I never bought into the fan idea that Beckett glammed up in S3 because of Castle. First of all, a woman should glam up for herself and not a man if that's the way she wants to be. Beckett was characterised at the beginning as someone who didn't seem that invested in clothes or makeup as a person, and even mocked those who were including Castle the metrosexual. They took her too much in the other direction from S3 onwards and it was too jarring a contrast to early Beckett for me. I think the conscious decision to change Beckett's look wasn't so much about anything within the character herself, but outside factors.

I'd forgotten about that scene due to my desire to block out anything Locksat, but WTF indeed. My high water mark for eye rolling may still be that scene where she chugged vodka and then poured some over her wound as she stitched herself. LOL!

madmaverick · July 18, 2016

On 7/17/2016 at 5:35 AM, Sonik Tooth said:

I would say it’s a case about social identity. Your group’s worth isn’t defined by your own group’s achievements but by comparison with another group. And social media makes it so easy, and maybe even addictive. You can be a whole different person, you can be important. You have more fave/likes when saying something derogatory about the other group than friends in real life. This may even persuade people to change sides if they think their chosen group is losing.

I think you're onto something there. I think there's a kind of egotism and an insecurity within some fans that feeds into this constant trash talking, be it targeted at fans they perceive to be in another group or actors/characters perceived as threatening in some way to their personal favourite. Social media can be a vehicle for good, and for legit feedback, but I think it can also amplify a lot of people's worst impulses as well as embolden those who are nasty to begin with as they can hide behind their anonymity. I just think it's unfortunate that obnoxious people can get attention or even a 'following'.

I don't have any problems with legit criticism, but legit or not, people should know how to express an opinion respectfully on the internet. It's a massive fail in our society that so many do not seem to grasp that basic etiquette! It's like because of the anonymity, people feel unleashed to express themselves in the rudest, most disrepectful ways possible. Being passionate about something is never an excuse to be uncivil.

On 7/17/2016 at 3:19 PM, verdana said:

On 7/16/2016 at 11:09 AM, KaveDweller said:

Imagine what those people could do if they put all their energy into something in real life.

Heh, it's frightening isn't it, with some fans it seems to literally consume them.

I know, right?! Those people are like energizer bunnies who just go on and on and on, except it's not for anything constructive.

Passion is the nature of fandom and there are positive attributes to that, but too often, there's a dark, destructive side to how that 'passion' is channeled.

On 7/17/2016 at 3:29 PM, verdana said:

Yeah absolutely, it's not just about the physical transformation, it's sad any way.

I wish actors (women especially) didn't feel the need to change their looks and attitude to conform in Hollywood to a supposed ideal and because they believe it will make them more popular and bankable. They end up losing much of what makes them unique and interesting to me in the first place, by the time the transformation is complete you could end up throwing a rock and hitting a thousand of them looking and acting exactly the same doing the Hollywood speak and that spark/magic has gone.

OT: I read a controversial article about Renee Zellweger recently. Controversy about the article aside, I have to say I felt it unfortunate that she felt the need to change her unique look.

McManda · July 18, 2016

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Castle was the freaking celebrity. He was the one who should always have looked manscaped. Always pretty. Always a little too well dressed. Because he was the pampered, rich person.

I disagree that Castle was the pampered, glamorous one (because he was rich). Mostly because I don't think there was a glamorous one. Yeah, Castle was the celebrity, but from the beginning that was always a persona, not who he was at his core. I think early Castle was portrayed as a put-together guy partly a little because that was the part he was playing (the ruggedly handsome, rogue, playboy author), but mostly because he grew up completely surrounded by women. He knew personal grooming habits, how to fit clothes nicely, how to style himself so he didn't look like a bum. The flashy guy we met in the pilot book launch party didn't really translate to his home life. I think the point was more that that was his upbringing and Martha's influence more than just a result of him having fame and cash and the cash just allowed him the means.

I think the early seasons portrayed that pretty well, he wasn't flashy, but he was definitely put together. And I do agree that later seasons Castle got little schlubby. Not because of Nathan or the way he looked, but he lost some of his polish. He wasn't quite as sharp a character, both in his personality and the way he was styled. It's kind of a shame because early season Castle is someone I fell in love with. I stayed in love because I already was. I'm not sure I would have fallen in love if I started with later seasons Castle.

KaveDweller · July 18, 2016

12 hours ago, madmaverick said:

What Marlowe said about the reinvention of characters along a show's run may be true, but the problem as I perceive it is Marlowe reinvented the characters in ways that lost sight of what made them more unique and appealing originally. For example, I found Beckett's "strengths" to become overblown as she became characterised as this supermodel supercop badass best at everything and every man's dream, while her "weaknesses" either didn't come across as organic to me, or made her unlikable, whereas I would have wanted the characters to become more rootable at their vulnerable best. They lost sight of a balance both within characters, and this goes for both Castle and Beckett in their relative strengths and weaknesses, and also they lost sight of a balance between the characters. Balance is so important when your show revolves around one key relationship. Somewhere along the line they chose to give Beckett all the power and make her the only alpha when it really should have been a relationship of alphas, of equals. Castle was appealing when he was a self-confident man who was fine with women taking the lead, but he becomes a lot less appealing when he's characterized as being an emasculated pushover too much of the time.

Yes, balance is important, and it was a problem on this show. The other issue was them trying to top themselves all the time. If you watch the two parters you see they get more and more ridiculous. First they stopped that guy obsessed with Nikki Heat, then they saved the city from a bomb, then they saved the freaking world. As the storylines get less realistic, the characters get less relatable. And they have to make them look stupid so that we can have the drama of them being saved from danger. I hated whenever they had Castle/Beckett get kidnapped, abducted, whatever.

I think the writers were limited in that they started doing things the actors wanted to do, even though they didn't really fit with each other (Castle being more slapstick, Beckett being more dramatic).

15 hours ago, verdana said:

Beckett had to be an expert at so many varied things not to mention being force fed that she was "extraordinary" - SHOW don't tell as the saying goes - and they were showing that at the start in lots of different subtle ways but they had to overdo it and start hitting me over the head with her sheer awesomeness, expanding her knowledge bank in areas that had me eye rolling in exasperation.

But don't you think that was just the writers being lazy? They would need someone to be able to deliver a piece of knowledge dialogue so they had to make one of their characters know something about it. Sometimes it was Beckett, but they did it with Castle all the time too. He just happened to know mobsters involved in their cases, or he knew a guy who could help in some other way the cops couldn't. They had him able to read Latin in one random episode. Or he'd done "book research" on some really far flung topic, but clearly hadn't actually written a book on said topic or Beckett wouldn't have been so surprised he knew about it. I'm sure writers do lots of research, but I doubt James Patterson or anyone like that hangs with all the mobsters in NYC. Sometimes they made Beckett the one with the knowledge/experience instead.

I also think they had a checklist for what to include in episodes, and sometimes they'd look at it and say, "Hey, we haven't had Castle gawk at how attractive he finds something about Beckett. Let's have her talk in a Russian accent!"

I totally get the criticism of making Beckett too awesome, but I never had too much of an issue with it personally because I never thought her random comments about things she did in the past or things she knew about were supposed to make her an expert. It seemed reasonable to me that an experienced cop would know enough about a topic to converse briefly about them. Just like it was reasonable that a writer would be able to converse about a lot of random things. Sometimes it was a bit OTT with what they threw in, but like I said, the writers were lazy. I also think that once people have a complaint about a show/character they start seeing it everywhere (and I do this too). So once something about a show annoys us, we see anything slightly related to that as worse than other viewers might, which is why I can understand it annoying some people.

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I think it's interesting that as creators, they've spend around a decade on a show like Castle, appear to have grown creatively tapped out, and then the new thing they pitch is another show like Castle. They know what sells or this is what they think they write best? Is Marlowe just a one trick WTWT crime procedural pony? Their pitches about a Derrick Storm spinoff or that Marlowe show didn't take off so it's back to a Castle re-tread? I read somewhere that Castle's disappearance storyline and all that spy conspiracy stuff was Marlowe's attempt to tie it to Derrick Storm somewhere down the line, but the network didn't go for a Storm spinoff in the end.

I forgot that rumor about Castle's disappearance being a set up for Derrick Storm. I was really glad they didn't go that route, but what they did in the GDS is actually worse.

I think Marlowe is just not that creative. I'm sure he was limited by a lot of factors on Castle, but if he was super creative and had tons of different show ideas, we'd be hearing about them. Look at someone like JJ Abrams who went from creating Felicity to Alias to Lost in the span of about 6 years. Those are three super different shows and he got them all on the air in a pretty short time frame.

1 hour ago, McManda said:

It's kind of a shame because early season Castle is someone I fell in love with. I stayed in love because I already was. I'm not sure I would have fallen in love if I started with later seasons Castle.

I think this is true for me about both characters.

Edited July 18, 2016 by KaveDweller

McManda · July 18, 2016

18 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

The other issue was them trying to top themselves all the time. If you watch the two parters you see they get more and more ridiculous. First they stopped that guy obsessed with Nikki Heat, then they saved the city from a bomb, then they saved the freaking world.

I miss the smaller, more intimate Castle episodes. I hated that "bigger! better!" was the theme of the later seasons. I was okay with Beckett's mom's murder ending with Bracken. I think Scott Dunn and "Nikki must die" was the best two-parter they did. And I think 3XK should have stayed their nemesis, minus the super-geniusness that he gained toward the end.

madmaverick · July 19, 2016

17 hours ago, McManda said:

I miss the smaller, more intimate Castle episodes. I hated that "bigger! better!" was the theme of the later seasons. I was okay with Beckett's mom's murder ending with Bracken.

Me too. Unfortunately, the bigger = better trap is one that many shows seem to fall into as it garners some success. But it really became a case of diminishing returns to me because they didn't conceive or execute their grander concepts well. Makes me wonder if Marlowe truly understood that the smaller, more intimate scale of the show was part of what made it charming and different, along with sharp, witty banter being its lifeblood. The way they spun Johanna Beckett's murder storyline into a mombatross was ridiculous. Bracken was going to run for President, Beckett might as well run for President too since she somehow became a political darling and a Supreme Court Justice wannabe. ;) The mombatross became so convoluted and left me so uninterested in it that I think it might have been more poignant and emotionally powerful to have had her murder left unsolved, or truly be a random act of killing. Also, somewhere along the line Marlowe developed this crutch of the COTWs being about the gimmicky world of X and the episode basically being a series of boring interrogation scenes. He didn't do plain old non gimmicky well constructed murders anymore.

18 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Yes, balance is important, and it was a problem on this show. The other issue was them trying to top themselves all the time. If you watch the two parters you see they get more and more ridiculous. First they stopped that guy obsessed with Nikki Heat, then they saved the city from a bomb, then they saved the freaking world.

Yes, ugh, I even remember Marlowe talking in interviews about his terribly important "higher stakes". ;) When the show became focused on saving the whole world and conspiracy exposition, those all important character moments that endear us to them often became left by the wayside. What Marlowe did with those big episodes did not leave me wanting to seek out any action thriller he may do in the future. The Nikki Heat 2 parter also remained the best for me because it just the right kind of big for a bigger episode and they took care to weave in a lot of interesting personal connections and ramifications. The Alexis kidnapping mostly worked for me for the same reason, because of the personal. S3 and S4 2 parters were less successful to me because not only was the case less interesting, but the personal felt more implausible and life threatening events failed to inspire any real movement between Caskett as it should have done.

18 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think the writers were limited in that they started doing things the actors wanted to do, even though they didn't really fit with each other (Castle being more slapstick, Beckett being more dramatic).

I put that all on the writers/showrunners though. It's one thing for them to play to the actors' perceived strengths or preferences, and it can be a collaboration, but the character should always be the one in the driver's seat. Maybe this is a problem with many long running shows as writers blend in more of the actor into the character as the show goes on rather than really thinking hard about the character as he/she was conceived originally. The wardrobe was another fail in this department as I felt it ended up driven by the actors rather than the characters.

18 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I totally get the criticism of making Beckett too awesome, but I never had too much of an issue with it personally because I never thought her random comments about things she did in the past or things she knew about were supposed to make her an expert. It seemed reasonable to me that an experienced cop would know enough about a topic to converse briefly about them. Just like it was reasonable that a writer would be able to converse about a lot of random things. Sometimes it was a bit OTT with what they threw in, but like I said, the writers were lazy. I also think that once people have a complaint about a show/character they start seeing it everywhere (and I do this too). So once something about a show annoys us, we see anything slightly related to that as worse than other viewers might, which is why I can understand it annoying some people.

The random expert knowledge and eclectic interests Beckett displayed didn't bother me that much as I believed both her and Castle to be well read, well educated individuals although Castle being such a research geek had all the more reason to know about various random things. It was more the typical Mary Sue trap that too many shows fall into with their leads where they have them being the best at everything that got a bit annoying with Beckett. Youngest to make detective, Captain (?), top of her class at the Academy, political darling which came out of nowhere, insinuating that she would become Senator/Supreme Court Justice but for her mum as well as cover model for Vogue, praise showered on her every time by 3rd parties, attractive to billionaires and heart surgeons. And better at Scrabble than a professional writer of course. It just got to be too much. When she 'failed', she didn't really fail and was still characterised as being in the right. On the rare occasions she apologised, it felt like it had to be on her terms and wouldn't stop her from doing the same thing again.

Once upon a time I thought they might be making Alexis a little too perfect too, so I thought it was a good plot for her to deal with rejection when she was rejected by her first choice university. Then she was written as 'flawed' to the point of being unlikable, and we were often meant to perceive her 'flaws' as her still being in the right, which got annoying. And then of course later on she became Mary Sued again with being this instant expert in crime investigation and I.T. ;)

18 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think Marlowe is just not that creative. I'm sure he was limited by a lot of factors on Castle, but if he was super creative and had tons of different show ideas, we'd be hearing about them. Look at someone like JJ Abrams who went from creating Felicity to Alias to Lost in the span of about 6 years. Those are three super different shows and he got them all on the air in a pretty short time frame.

JJ is definitely on a different creative level to Marlowe, though I'd say JJ's better at coming up with show concepts than seeing them through years and years down the road. ;) So maybe movies are a better fit for him, or limited series. It was funny and ridiculous how eventually no one knew what Rambaldi was all about, not even the actors and maybe not even the writers. ;) Ron Moore is another guy who strikes me as being very creative when he's able to pull off shows as diverse as BSG and Outlander.

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It's kind of a shame because early season Castle is someone I fell in love with. I stayed in love because I already was. I'm not sure I would have fallen in love if I started with later seasons Castle.

18 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think this is true for me about both characters.

It's true for me about both characters and the show.

KaveDweller · July 19, 2016

5 hours ago, madmaverick said:

I put that all on the writers/showrunners though. It's one thing for them to play to the actors' perceived strengths or preferences, and it can be a collaboration, but the character should always be the one in the driver's seat. Maybe this is a problem with many long running shows as writers blend in more of the actor into the character as the show goes on rather than really thinking hard about the character as he/she was conceived originally. The wardrobe was another fail in this department as I felt it ended up driven by the actors rather than the characters.

Oh, I agree, it is all on the showrunners/writers. But I think everyone involved in the show just cared less and less about putting out a quality show as the seasons went by. But that attitude comes from the top.

It was more the typical Mary Sue trap that too many shows fall into with their leads where they have them being the best at everything that got a bit annoying with Beckett. Youngest to make detective, Captain (?), top of her class at the Academy, political darling which came out of nowhere, insinuating that she would become Senator/Supreme Court Justice but for her mum as well as cover model for Vogue, praise showered on her every time by 3rd parties, attractive to billionaires and heart surgeons. And better at Scrabble than a professional writer of course. It just got to be too much. When she 'failed', she didn't really fail and was still characterised as being in the right. On the rare occasions she apologised, it felt like it had to be on her terms and wouldn't stop her from doing the same thing again.

I didn't mind being super good at her job and being the youngest to make detective, because I thought it was in character. There really are some people who are superstars at their job and rise up the ladder quickly. I didn't buy her as a possible senator though, especially after things that came out in Always and Veritas. The supreme court thing was just her dream as a kid, so not a big deal to mention. But in the beginning her career success was balanced out by weaknesses in her personal life. They focused less than that later on. All the comments on her appearance were a bit much though, and kind of sexist when you think about it. Why reduce her to her looks when there's so much else to say about her?

I agree about the apologies being like that in season 8, but before that I thought they'd done a pretty good job having both characters be sincere when apologizing. I really can't think of a time either screwed up and didn't express regret or apologize when needed, or when they seemed like they were just going to do the same thing over again (again in S1-S7). Other people would tell Kate she wasn't wrong, but she was harder on herself than most people and wouldn't hesitate to take blame for things she did. She was kind of a throw yourself on your sword kind of person.

JJ is definitely on a different creative level to Marlowe, though I'd say JJ's better at coming up with show concepts than seeing them through years and years down the road. ;) So maybe movies are a better fit for him, or limited series. It was funny and ridiculous how eventually no one knew what Rambaldi was all about, not even the actors and maybe not even the writers. ;)

I recently read some interviews with the Alias cast, done for the 10th anniversary of it ending, and they were all talking about they didn't understand Rambaldi. My favorite was Victor Garber who said he didn't understand the plots on his current show either.

1 hour ago, SweetTooth said:

I totally agree. The problem wasn't her random knowledge that seemed to come from nowhere, it was her perfection. Her being the best at it. She didn't just know about the subject. At one point she either bested someone at it or the knowledge she had was seen as really sexy. The woman who's smoking hot but still a nerd at heart is fine, but I think they hit EVERY nerd subject for her to know about and be perfect at that was also considered hot, hot, HOT! Comic books? CHECK! Skateboarding? CHECK!

I think that might be a slight exaggeration, but like I said, I get why it would annoy people. Just mention Alexis to me and see my reaction.

I totally agree about making Castle too bumbling, especially to the point that he 100% believed in genies and other super natural stuff. It stopped being to annoy Beckett, or even just to think, "Wow, it'd be cool if he really was a time traveler." It was ridiculous.

verdana · July 21, 2016

On 18/07/2016 at 0:06 PM, madmaverick said:

Marlowe also talked about keeping characters in conflict. I think he, Hawley, and a whole lot of other writers believe that's the only way to go. ;)

More eye rolling as he talked about the importance of a long term arc so that people felt satisfaction and pay off at the end of a season. Yeah, except he was a shitty writer of all those so called long term arcs.

I strongly suspect that Marlowe is a one trick pony and this is why him and his wife keeping heading back to the same things to try and hit gold again. That's not to say they can't make it happen a lot of people simply regurgitate what they've done before but a lot will depend on the casting like you said.

I'm not scared of watching conflict, when written well it can be an excellent way of showcasing your actors and the story but I grew to fear it on Castle every time they hinted at something coming up because it was so woefully written.

That moment when she stitched herself up was so excruciating but typical of how they amped up her badassary in various laughable ways, all they needed in the next action outing was a scene of Beckett digging a bullet out of her leg with a knife then bandaging it and carrying on and if any one asks says "it's only a flesh wound!" lol.

verdana · July 21, 2016

The smaller more intimate moments on the show are the ones I remember most not the big overblown two parters which as others have so rightly pointed out got totally OTT after the first couple of outings. Marlowe loved his "higher stakes" storytelling that's for sure but didn't have the writing chops (or budget) to really do them justice and besides once you've got to "saving the world" where exactly are you going to go after that? Sigh

verdana · July 21, 2016

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I totally agree. The problem wasn't her random knowledge that seemed to come from nowhere, it was her perfection. Her being the best at it. She didn't just know about the subject. At one point she either bested someone at it or the knowledge she had was seen as really sexy. The woman who's smoking hot but still a nerd at heart is fine, but I think they hit EVERY nerd subject for her to know about and be perfect at that was also considered hot, hot, HOT! Comic books? CHECK! Skateboarding? CHECK!

The super hot amazing nerd chick deal they had going on with her was annoying and it felt a bit condescending. It was obvious what they were trying to do which made even more irritating, I could imagine this checklist drawn up in the writers room as they steadily ticked every single thing off it season by season.

For Christ's sake usually there's always someone out there better at a particular thing than you but not in Beckett's world by the looks of it lol. And I agree with madmaverick her so called "failures" never felt like that (and they need to carry emotional weight to work) plus she never seemed that sorry about screwing up in the first place which always irked me. Even if she did end up saying sorry I never bought into it.

Beckett certainly struck a chord with some fans in a big way, for some she was their role model for womanhood and what they aspired to be - I can only assume they were either very young or very naive or both. There's a whole load of misery and trouble in store right there for any young woman aiming for Beckett's level of supersexynerdybadassextraordinariness.

The skateboarding one was a classic example of them throwing in a random bit of expert knowledge for Kate that actually took me out the scene, "Whoa! Nice tail whip!" Oh please. Have her admire the cool moves by all means but that was too much. It's a pretty specialised hobby/sport yet they're asking me to believe she's acquired some in-depth knowledge of skateboarding on her travels so she can casually name the exact moves in passing? Urgh. It felt completely forced in there which is what frequently happened when Beckett suddenly piped up in this way as it was never referred to ever again. If writers are going to start doing this kind of thing constantly with a character (male or female) they need to show the audience how that knowledge might be acquired in little ways - not just dump it on me like that. Castle knowing some random stuff I can buy into way more readily given what they've shown of his experiences and the fact he's a writer and naturally curious plus they didn't overdo it and make him brilliant at everything - alas far from it. I'm surprised the guy could still get his pants on by himself in the mornings he regressed that much.

Edited July 21, 2016 by verdana

Mom x 3 · July 21, 2016

12 hours ago, verdana said:

The super hot amazing nerd chick deal they had going on with her was annoying and it felt a bit condescending. It was obvious what they were trying to do which made even more irritating, I could imagine this checklist drawn up in the writers room as they steadily ticked every single thing off it season by season.

For Christ's sake usually there's always someone out there better at a particular thing than you but not in Beckett's world by the looks of it lol. And I agree with madmaverick her so called "failures" never felt like that (and they need to carry emotional weight to work) plus she never seemed that sorry about screwing up in the first place which always irked me. Even if she did end up saying sorry I never bought into it.

Beckett certainly struck a chord with some fans in a big way, for some she was their role model for womanhood and what they aspired to be - I can only assume they were either very young or very naive or both. There's a whole load of misery and trouble in store right there for any young woman aiming for Beckett's level of supersexynerdybadassextraordinariness.

The skateboarding one was a classic example of them throwing in a random bit of expert knowledge for Kate that actually took me out the scene, "Whoa! Nice tail whip!" Oh please. Have her admire the cool moves by all means but that was too much. It's a pretty specialised hobby/sport yet they're asking me to believe she's acquired some in-depth knowledge of skateboarding on her travels so she can casually name the exact moves in passing? Urgh. It felt completely forced in there which is what frequently happened when Beckett suddenly piped up in this way as it was never referred to ever again. If writers are going to start doing this kind of thing constantly with a character (male or female) they need to show the audience how that knowledge might be acquired in little ways - not just dump it on me like that. Castle knowing some random stuff I can buy into way more readily given what they've shown of his experiences and the fact he's a writer and naturally curious plus they didn't overdo it and make him brilliant at everything - alas far from it. I'm surprised the guy could still get his pants on by himself in the mornings he regressed that much.

I think you nailed why I ended up disliking Beckett over the course of the series. I loved her in the first two seasons, but this know-it-all schtick got old really quickly. I agree that it made more sense coming from Castle, as he has had to research multiple topics to keep his novels fresh and interesting (case in point: Voodoo), but from someone who was traumatized by her mother's death as a teenager, she sure did a lot of living and learning before that event. A better route may have been to make her unfamiliar with more things, as she would have foregone a social life in order to perseverate on her mother's case, but YMMV.

WendyCR72 · July 21, 2016

17 minutes ago, HospiceDoc said:

A better route may have been to make her unfamiliar with more things, as she would have foregone a social life in order to perseverate on her mother's case, but YMMV.

So sort of like a lesser version of Brennan on Bones then, with more social skills? Yeah, I think it would have served Beckett better. too, since her Mary Sue-ness really turned me off of her in a hurry.

Mom x 3 · July 21, 2016

15 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

So sort of like a lesser version of Brennan on Bones then, with more social skills? Yeah, I think it would have served Beckett better. too, since her Mary Sue-ness really turned me off of her in a hurry.

Exactly.

KaveDweller · July 21, 2016

On 7/21/2016 at 3:52 PM, HospiceDoc said:

I think you nailed why I ended up disliking Beckett over the course of the series. I loved her in the first two seasons, but this know-it-all schtick got old really quickly. I agree that it made more sense coming from Castle, as he has had to research multiple topics to keep his novels fresh and interesting (case in point: Voodoo), but from someone who was traumatized by her mother's death as a teenager, she sure did a lot of living and learning before that event. A better route may have been to make her unfamiliar with more things, as she would have foregone a social life in order to perseverate on her mother's case, but YMMV.

I still don't get the argument about why it made sense for Castle to know random pieces of information but not Beckett. Beckett was well educated and well read, but more importantly she was a cop in NYC for over a decade. It makes total sense that she would have been around different kinds of people and picked up information about all kinds of things. If they had her jumping on a skateboard and doing tricks herself, that would have made no sense. But just knowing things? Completely realistic. I don't think that falls in the Mary Sue category at all. The over the top compliments, yes. But not knowing things.

And I guess I don't see how being a writer gives someone more of a pass for knowing random things than a cop. Cops see all kinds of stuff. They knew different things, which was always why they made a good team. Where the show missed an opportunity was in showing Beckett uncomfortable in Castle's world, where her cop experience wasn't as useful as solving crimes. The few times they did get into that we got to see Beckett insecure, which was always enjoyable.

Like I said, I get the Mary Sue complaints in general, I just don't understand how having knowledge falls into that category.

But I know I'm in the minority there.

Edited July 23, 2016 by KaveDweller
Spelling

Mom x 3 · July 23, 2016

On July 21, 2016 at 6:19 PM, KaveDweller said:

I still don't get the argument about why it made sense for Castle to know random pieces if information but not Beckett. Beckett was well educated and well read, but more importantly she was a cop in NYC for over a decade. It makes totally sense that she would have been around different kinds of people and picked up information about all kinds of things. If they had her jumping on a skateboard and doing tricks herself, that would have made no sense. But just knowing things? Completely realistic. I don't think that falls in the Mary Sue category at all. The over the top compliments, yes. But not knowing things.

And I guess I don't see how being a writer gives someone more of a pass for knowing random things than a cop. Cops see all kinds of stuff. They knew different things, which was always why they made a good team. Where the show missed an opportunity was in showing Beckett uncomfortable in Castle's world, where her cop experience wasn't as useful as solving crimes. The few times they did get into that we got to see Beckett insecure, which was always enjoyable.

Like I said, I get the Mary Sue complaints in general, I just don't understand how having knowledge falls into that category.

But I know I'm in the minority there.

I don't have much of a problem with a regular cop knowing some of this extraneous information, I have a problem with Kate Beckett knowing it. This is a woman who has so traumatized by her mother's death at age 19 that she transferred to a different college to help her alcoholic father and was so driven that she became the youngest woman to ever obtain a detective badge. When we meet her she is all business and professionalism and a secret fan of the Derrick Storm books. She wore plain clothes and sensible shoes. She was an impressive detective but was still unnerved when Castle surmised her tragic history. She had so much angst about her mother's death that it railroaded multiple relationships. Yet during all of that she manages to do some modeling, become an expert about classic cars, comics, sci-fi, magic, motorcycles, and spent a semester enjoying Russia. Having knowledge doesn't make her a Mary Sue, but her variety of knowledge about certain things just seems excessive. When you add to that the fact that over the course of the series, she began wearing clothes way out of her pay grade, always had perfect hair (ridiculously long tresses rarely put up) and makeup and chases suspects in 3-4 inch heels, it begins to not feel genuine. For me, anyway.

I totally respect that you feel differently though!

KaveDweller · July 23, 2016

3 minutes ago, HospiceDoc said:

When we meet her she is all business and professionalism and a secret fan of the Derrick Storm books. She wore plain clothes and sensible shoes. She was an impressive detective but was still unnerved when Castle surmised her tragic history. She had so much angst about her mother's death that it railroaded multiple relationships. Yet during all of that she manages to do some modeling, become an expert about classic cars, comics, sci-fi, magic, motorcycles, and spent a semester enjoying Russia. Having knowledge doesn't make her a Mary Sue, but her variety of knowledge about certain things just seems excessive. When you add to that the fact that over the course of the series, she began wearing clothes way out of her pay grade, always had perfect hair (ridiculously long tresses rarely put up) and makeup and chases suspects in 3-4 inch heels, it begins to not feel genuine. For me, anyway.

I totally respect that you feel differently though!

I don't think it's true she had multiple relationships railroaded because of her angst about her mom. The only relationship we know about between her mom dying and the show starting was Will, and that ended because he moved, not her mom. She came to a realization that she was closed off because of her mom, but, she was in relationships. I think the backstory was that she was obsessed with her mom's death to an unhealthy point, but then got better and was living more fully, having somewhat of a social life, reading a lot of things, etc. Plus, my point was also that in the course of being a driven detective she would have worked a lot, and that's where she would have picked up a lot of information. She wasn't only trying to solve her mom's case, she was solving tons of other cases and that's why she got promoted so fast. Being driven and all business is what makes it believable she could have seen a lot of different things.

Most of those other things you mentioned were established as things she did before her mom died. The modeling was in high school and she was a fan of comics/sci-fi as a kid. I think she even bought the motorcycle as a teenager. There were plenty of things she had absolutely no knowledge about (even things like Las Vegas marriages being real, which you'd think would have been obvious).

The "expert" part is the word I've taken issue with in complaints I've seen. Because her knowing the plot of a few comics, or remembering a couple magic tricks her grandfather taught her as a kid is hardly a suggestion that she's an expert. I totally get that once something annoys you, it annoys you exponentially. But I just didn't see that aspect of the show come through.

I won't argue with the looks stuff though.

WendyCR72 · July 23, 2016

Taken individually, Beckett knowing things isn't so bad, but when all cumulatively added together - along with EVERYONE talking about her fantabulousness (my word!) and her bestest of the bestest schtick at...well, EVERYTHING - and adding the Barbie doll look on top of it - it was just WAY too much for me.

Gone was Beckett the competent cop and in her place (emphasizing here, my opinion!) was an overgrown Barbie/Bratz doll hybrid with attitude to match.

And it really turned me off of her big time.

oberon55 · July 23, 2016

5 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Most of those other things you mentioned were established as things she did before her mom died. The modeling was in high school and she was a fan of comics/sci-fi as a kid.

For me it was never about her knowing a few things. It was always how everybody else was dazzled by her. It's not that she modeled as a teenager. It's that one of the top people in modeling (someone that has probably seen thousands of models come & go) was just so damn impressed with this teenager that modeled for a few months that she still remembers her 15 years later. That she wasn't just one of the top people at the academy but was a legend. That she is so amazing that a bunch of people got together on their own (without her knowledge) & wanted her to go into politics.

westwingfan · July 23, 2016

14 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Most of those other things you mentioned were established as things she did before her mom died. The modeling was in high school and she was a fan of comics/sci-fi as a kid. I think she even bought the motorcycle as a teenager. There were plenty of things she had absolutely no knowledge about (even things like Las Vegas marriages being real, which you'd think would have been obvious).

Modelling In Inventing The Girl Beckett admits to the boys that she did some modelling when she was 17 as it was easier than waitressing (Although in Dressed To Kill we are told that she turned down the chance to appear in the Jan 1999 edition of Modern Fashion, the month her mother was murdered when she would have been 19)

Comics In Heroes and Villains Beckett tells Castle that she bought Sin City when she was 14.

Magic In Poof You're Dead she informs Castle that her Grandfather was an amataur magician and used to take her to Drake's Magic Shop when she was 13.

Motorcycles In Under The Gun Beckett tells Castle that she worked through high school to buy her '94 Harley softail.

Semester in Kiev (Ukraine) In Deep In Death she explains her knowledge of Russian by telling the boyz that she spent a semester between junior and senior year in Kiev.

KaveDweller · July 23, 2016

9 hours ago, oberon55 said:

For me it was never about her knowing a few things. It was always how everybody else was dazzled by her. It's not that she modeled as a teenager. It's that one of the top people in modeling (someone that has probably seen thousands of models come & go) was just so damn impressed with this teenager that modeled for a few months that she still remembers her 15 years later. That she wasn't just one of the top people at the academy but was a legend. That she is so amazing that a bunch of people got together on their own (without her knowledge) & wanted her to go into politics.

9 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

Yes. @verdana's recap of the skateboarding scene was even more ridiculous than I remembered, and Kate slugging alcohol and stitching herself up was fall-on-the-floor laughing movie cliche bad-ass chick, bad. Like, OTT bad.

A writer doing research and knowing random facts? Sure. And again, it's not just the knowledge. It's HOT NERDGIRL knowledge. And yes, the constant run of people talking about how amazing she was, coupled with the hotnerdgirlbad-assery coupled with them slowly turning her runway-ready, all cumulatively made it over the top ridiculous. And like I said, what wound up making it even more glaring and shining a spotlight on it was that the more awesome they made her, the more little-boy like they made him.

I already said I agreed with the comments about too many people complimenting her and her looks. But there were posts upthread that specifically talked about how it was unbelievable that she would know about various topics that she knew about. That is the only point I was disagreeing with, especially since those same comments had no issue with Castle being an "expert" on every topic that comes up. They are two separate points, and I just don't think they should get lumped together.

I disagree with the nerd girl label though. The only thing that fits that is the sci-if and comics. Modeling, motorcycles, and traveling aren't nerd things. Skateboarding is not at all a nerd thing. I have a collegue who goes out to a skate park near our office everyday at lunch and he is nowhere near nerdy. Neither are the people he rides with or anyone I know who has ever touched a skateboard. Also, I believe in the episode she was actually talking about a trick a biker did, which is also not a nerd thing, but an Olympic sport.

I think a lot of the backstory was meant to show she was really compatible with Castle. She wasn't just some cop he admired for her job, she had tastes in movies/books/hobbies that matched his. And I think she was trying to impress him when she told him about her past, because even when she didn't want to admit it, she liked him following her around and wanted him to stay interested.

Or sometimes they just gave her or Castle a backstory that connected to their cases because the writers were lazy and liked to have themes that made their jobs easier.

Edited July 23, 2016 by KaveDweller

WendyCR72 · July 23, 2016

Let me put this in perspective with a similar-ish (on paper) character, albeit in a "straight" drama. And, @SweetTooth, feel free to back me or not here: On Law & Order: Criminal Intent, Detective Bobby Goren was scary smart. He was a bookworm (thanks to his mom being a librarian before her mental illness kicked in) and could glean the most obscure facts, with his partner filling in gaps.

And for a while, it was what it was. But then, a funny thing happened: Not everyone thought he was hot shit. The first crack came when Alex Eames, his partner, was kidnapped. All of a sudden, he wasn't supercop. He teetered on the edge, could barely function objectively, and it was compounded by the fact the kidnapper was someone he'd known since she was a girl. Then came his mom dying of cancer, his junkie brother coming around again along with it, and then a sucker punch with discovering his bio father was a murderer while investigating a case that encompassed his involvement.

He was called a whackjob. He went undercover to help his nephew in prison against policy and got 6-months' suspension. His partner rightfully called him on his shit when he again went undercover (this time with the brass knowing, but not being allowed to clue his partner in). And then his old mentor framed him for his own brother's murder, and had his own captain suspecting him. On paper, it sounds like overkill, sure, but on screen, it WORKED. Because Goren was allowed to fail. He was allowed to go off the reservation and be short-sighted and short-tempered and not be perfect and not have his ass kissed. He still had the brilliance, but he was heavily flawed, both from outside and inside, and I think it actually helped him as a character in the end. He was finally "a real boy", human, and not some wish fulfillment fantasy.

I'm not saying Beckett had to be disliked or whatnot, but yeah, I think she could have used a dash of humility and had something, ANYTHING shaking her perfection apart a bit.

KaveDweller · July 23, 2016

1 hour ago, SweetTooth said:

I'm not talking about the actual skateboarders. I'm talking about her interest in things nerds would love. The point I was making was that her knowledge involved most things men/boys would find incredibly hot for a woman to love. Like motorcycles and comic books and skateboarding. BUT! She's also a girl! A really feminine girl! I mean, what's more of a male fantasy than a girl who digs sports, motorcycles, comics, and skateboarding but also has modeled/looks like a model? I just meant they were playing into the fantasy of the ideal woman. The chick all of the women want to hang with and guys want to sleep with.

But that's what I was saying I disagreed with. I don't think they made her interested in things nerds would love, or even things most men would like. They made her interested in things Castle found attractive. Not all men have some fantasy of finding a girl who loves comic books and motorcycles.

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

I'm not saying Beckett had to be disliked or whatnot, but yeah, I think she could have used a dash of humility and had something, ANYTHING shaking her perfection apart a bit.

Like I said, I was not disagreeing with that attitude at all, I was just separating out the comments about her knowledge of certain things. I understand the argument that combined with other things it became annoying and I was expressing that I don't think they go together. I'm not trying to sound argumentative, but I feel like people keep thinking I don't understand them and repeating things I already agreed with. It's like I'm talking Greek or something. Different opinions aren't the same as not understanding.

1 hour ago, SweetTooth said:

I never felt Castle was an expert in any of the areas he brought up that he researched. A lot of the time it seemed to me (like with the mob thing) he had connections to people who knew things and thus had a vast array of characters he could go to for information in the same way Holmes does.

And they just kind of tossed off his knowledge/rolled their eyes whenever he said he knew about something. LIke, whatever, writer, okay.

So while I agree totally that both of them having random knowledge about subjects that just happened to tie into a case they were working on is a TV trope going back to the beginning of TV, I think it was more how it was presented that made Beckett's knowledge seem more strange than Castle's.

I guess it's just mileage, because I actually thought Castle knowing people connected to everything in the universe was super strange and silly. It didn't effect my enjoyment of the show, but it was kind of OTT that he was the one to always know the piece of information that let them solve the case. It made the actual cops look like idiots.

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But yes, if they had Beckett on the outside being confident and knowing everything under the sun but inside feeling insecure, it would have played better. I think THAT is what I loved about the earlier season, so thanks, Wendy, for helping me put a finger on it.

I think in the earlier seasons even if she had knowledge, she still came off kind of like, "Oh, I know this" without it being like smirk, I know this, smirk.

She never seemed smirky to me, she just seemed like she was casually saying things she knew. Except for some points when she seemed to be openly flirting with Castle. And I feel like she was always insecure inside, it was just that she put on a face for the public and only let Castle see what was inside. But maybe I was just projecting early seasons Beckett.

Edited July 23, 2016 by KaveDweller
Quote issues.

WendyCR72 · July 23, 2016

TV Line uses Comic Con 2016 to wring its last (?) drops of Castle: Nathan Fillion discusses the show ending without a "proper" goodbye and what was planned for S9.

chraume · July 23, 2016

26 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

TV Line uses Comic Con 2016 to wring its last (?) drops of Castle: Nathan Fillion discusses the show ending without a "proper" goodbye and what was planned for S9.

Somehow I doubt it'll be the last drops TVLine gets out of the show, although I desperately wish it was!

Despite all the complaining in the comments, I actually thought it was a nice interview. He took the time to acknowledge the cast, mentioned some relief in having a bit of free time, and skillfully dodged Ausiello trying to get more clicks re: the plan for S9 (which I honestly think was maybe a series of pitched ideas about what the season could look like to entice the network, not the solid plan like TVLine is making it seem.) People seem to be angry that he can't come up with a favourite moment of the last eight years off the cuff, but, like... neither can I.

Edited July 23, 2016 by chraume

KaveDweller · July 23, 2016

15 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

TV Line uses Comic Con 2016 to wring its last (?) drops of Castle: Nathan Fillion discusses the show ending without a "proper" goodbye and what was planned for S9.

That's such a leading interview......You must miss Castle, huh? It's bittersweet to not have said good-bye, isn't it? There would have been a time jump right? TV Line needs to get over it and find new click bait.

chraume · July 23, 2016

Just now, SweetTooth said:

It wasn't off the cuff, though. As Ausellio said, he sent Nathan the question two days prior, and Nathan acknowledged receipt of it.

That was a joke, as I heard it. And Mitovich confirmed as much in the comments.

chraume · July 23, 2016

3 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

OH! Sorry. My bad.

Haha, no worries! But you're right, it definitely would've been a bad move if he had actually received it a few days prior.

Edited July 23, 2016 by chraume

McManda · July 23, 2016

Quote

TV Line needs to get over it and find new click bait.

And yet, that story is their #3 most clicked story. I would be sad to lose that ad revenue, too.

As far as it being bittersweet to not have had to say goodbye, I get that. I think that's how I'd want it, if it were me. There was no time to get sad that it's ending and I wouldn't have to figure out how to split focus between my job ending, watching them dismantle things, reminiscing with people and still going out and playing the role where none of that matters and I have to pretend it doesn't exist.

I still think if their plan was a Beckett-less S9, especially after a "meaningful time jump", it's better they ended it. I will forever be sad that it's over, but I'm also still pretty sure I would have hated a bastardized, broken version of the show I used to love. They saved me from making the choice of following the show until the end and being dissatisfied.

femmefan1946 · July 24, 2016

I doubt it will ever exist, but I would love to see Nathan and Alan do a live action Spectrum. From the first two issues (#0 on Free Comic Book Day) and #1 , which introduces the AT character, the characters already have some depth and the background story is interesting.

Am I the only one who finds comic books hard to read? It's a whole different kind of literacy.

Back on topic-- Beckett's Mary Sueness was most annoying for me when she was supposed to be fluent in Russian after a semester in Ukraine.

Sorry, but even with immersion language training, That ain't gonna happen, especially when you start as an adult. Think of your immigrant friends-- you know that they are from away the moment they open their mouths.

And speaking English with an accent to a 'real' Russian would not convince him that you were Russian. Frankly he probably wouldn't even hear the accent.

But I never found any character having some knowledge of any given subject unusual, Beckett or Castle. Just being widely read and out in an experience-rich environment like NYC would make it not only possible but reasonable.

KaveDweller · July 24, 2016

57 minutes ago, femmefan1946 said:

Back on topic-- Beckett's Mary Sueness was most annoying for me when she was supposed to be fluent in Russian after a semester in Ukraine.

Wasn't it not even a whole semester, it was a summer? Pretty ridiculous. They should have said she went there because she had been studying Russian for a few years or something. It wouldn't have required changing anything else in the story.

femmefan1946 · July 24, 2016

And Ukrainian is not Russian! Ask any of my Ukranian relations (we seem to marry a lot of them, also Phillippinas.)

KaveDweller · July 24, 2016

Just now, femmefan1946 said:

And Ukrainian is not Russian! Ask any of my Ukranian relations (we seem to marry a lot of them, also Phillippinas.)

Maybe the writers don't know their geography (along with not knowing police procedure or continuity)?

verdana · July 24, 2016

15 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I think a lot of the backstory was meant to show she was really compatible with Castle. She wasn't just some cop he admired for her job, she had tastes in movies/books/hobbies that matched his. And I think she was trying to impress him when she told him about her past, because even when she didn't want to admit it, she liked him following her around and wanted him to stay interested.

Or sometimes they just gave her or Castle a backstory that connected to their cases because the writers were lazy and liked to have themes that made their jobs easier.

I agree it was probably a combination of both but it had this unfortunate cumulative effect as I explained in my previous posts and towards the end it was like they were trying to punch a hole through the screen and grab me by the throat to remind me especially of her sheer hotness, badassery and awesomeness.

Her past seemed to get....messy to me filled with contrasting things that didn't really add up character wise but that I'm sure was down to pure lazy writing and they couldn't be bothered to tie up the timelines on anything much just chuck it in there and hope no one bothered trying to go back and take a look at it.

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When you add to that the fact that over the course of the series, she began wearing clothes way out of her pay grade, always had perfect hair (ridiculously long tresses rarely put up) and makeup and chases suspects in 3-4 inch heels, it begins to not feel genuine. For me, anyway.

This gif of Beckett (S8?) striding out with her boys to a crime scene encapsulates everything that irritated me about how they morphed her from an attractive woman who importantly looked like a professional serious cop into someone who looks like her next stop is the dominatrix dungeon. She just needs a whip and she's your fantasy hot cop giving you a little "punishment" for kicks. The flowing long tresses which are actually getting in her way (check), sky high glossy black boots (check), THIGH HOLSTER (super hot that's worth extra!) and most ridiculous of all a bullet proof vest that offers her literally zero protection in the stomach area it's riding so high up to show off those hips and supermodel strut. But hey she looks SEXY and HOT what's not to love! The boys? They look like I would expect two cops to look, her I don't know what she is but that's no cop.

I thought Brennan on Bones was a good example of how to do it right, she was attractive but they kept her look suitable for lab work. I'm sure people working in one day to day had their gripes but to someone like me nothing stuck out as glaringly OTT.

There was a time when I didn't mind the high heels because back in the early days they kept the rest of it real plus I realised they probably wanted Katic to be eye level with her co-star and Fillion's a tall guy. But they had to start overdoing everything and if you keep pushing something in my face it highlights the sheer absurdity of it all and they shouldn't do that. Having everyone she met tell her within five seconds how amazing she was when she's done nothing at that point to give this impression was also grating and stupid.

On 23/07/2016 at 9:47 AM, SweetTooth said:

The Kate Beckett at the beginning of the series was a quiet, beautiful nerdgirl. The reader who idolized an author that in later years she wound up rolling her eyes at and mommying. The man who became a buffoon who tagged after her like a puppy. They cut Castle off at the knees at the exact time they built Kate to epic status, and it was so sad what that relationship became.

Well stated, I can never understand why they wanted to do that because it sucked the life (and realism) out of their relationship slowly but surely for me to the point I didn't understand why either of them found sustainability together.

Making a woman have to act like she's "mom" to her husband will kill any romance factor stone dead, that's the route they seemed to be heading for at times with these two.

Hearing some fans calling him "Beckett's adorable doofus (or goofball) of a husband" is not a compliment especially for a guy like him, it's embarrassing when you think of the man he used to be.

As one commentator pointed out it was critical that Beckett found him attractive and not annoying when he did any silly kind of stuff, if she acted bored/sarcastic or angry at him then that will transfer over to your audience. Same went with the boys and their eye rolling and making fun of his theories towards the end it got (and even Beckett got in on the act sometimes) if they looked scornful and embarrassed by them that was lethal because if they're not taking him remotely seriously then why the hell should your audience? The writers seem to forget they look the lens of how the other characters are treating/reacting to that person so they need to be careful how they do it but of course they didn't care I guess they thought it was just funny having Nathan acting like a goofball with everyone else poking fun.

12 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

When Beckett was shown backsliding, I think at the time I, and a few others, were like FINE! If you're going this particular ridiculous route, at least make her REALLY backslide. Like nearly loony bin backslide. Do it up. Don't namby pamby it and keep her Super Beckett.

But that's exactly what they did. This supposed backslide, one big enough for her to leave her husband to investigate, was barely a blip in her radar. And her husband, rather than treat it for the serious condition it was, just decided to be goofy and adorable instead and beg her to love him.

That's a good example where you have a supposedly major story arc that fails on every level because TPTB are not prepared to allow the characters to suffer any major repercussions for their actions. Instead it becomes a meaningless yet highly irritating story which kept getting thrust in my face but every appearance of it only served to remind the audience how inconsequential it was to everyone not just Beckett and Castle but to his family and friends - it was mostly treated like a joke and they made Castle look even more pathetic than ever. Beckett sailed on regardless after what should have been a major upheaval to her marriage (and possibly even an end to it) and much worse there was no sign that she wouldn't go and do exactly the same thing all over again if the situation presented itself. Despite all the supposedly "cute" moments they didn't have anything really substantial there for the long term the way they wrote them.

Yeah I know we got the three kids at the end in the "happily ever after" tacked on ending but felt like their future relationship was set that Beckett was free to do as she pretty much wanted with no genuinely painful come backs or lessons learnt and Castle would forgive her eventually because he luuuuurved her so much and that's the pattern they seemed happy to establish and for me as a viewer it sucked. That's not the kind of relationship I wanted them to have, I'll have to resort to fanfic (where some of the writers appear far more attuned to the characters than Hawley and Winter were) for examples of a more healthy way of having these two go about things.

Edited July 24, 2016 by verdana

verdana · July 24, 2016

I wish TV line would stop picking over the scab lol but of course they want the hits.

Alan was there as the trusty friend to help NF out with the patter and fill in the gaps.

Whatever did go down (and I'm super positive something did between Katic and Fillion) I wish them and the whole cast well, if we ever do find out it will be years from now when they're needing cash and someone writes a tell all book heh.

Gant · July 24, 2016

9 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Maybe the writers don't know their geography (along with not knowing police procedure or continuity)?

It wouldn't be unusual at all to study Russian in Kiev in the 90s. Everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian, in fact a good chunk of Ukrainian citizens don't (or won't) speak Ukrainian. More so in the 90s. It would be very unusual and not exactly practical for a foreign student in Kiev in the 90s to learn Ukrainian while bypassing Russian which would have given means to communicate with way more people than Ukrainian would've given. But not having an accent after a measly summer in Kiev some 10-15 years ago? I presume she wasn't practicing everyday. If her incredible skill with languages was made a special plot point through the series I could've believed it, but on its own it does look like another mary-sueism.

Quote

This gif of Beckett (S8?) striding out with her boys to a crime scene encapsulates everything that irritated me about how they morphed her from an attractive woman who importantly looked like a professional serious cop into someone who looks like her next stop is the dominatrix dungeon. She just needs a whip and she's your fantasy hot cop giving you a little "punishment" for kicks. The flowing long tresses which are actually getting in her way (check), sky high glossy black boots (check), THIGH HOLSTER (super hot that's worth extra!) and most ridiculous of all a bullet proof vest that offers her literally zero protection in the stomach area it's riding so high up to show off those hips and supermodel strut. But hey she looks SEXY and HOT what's not to love!

Thanks for the laugh, I forgot this scene in all its messy glory.

madmaverick · July 25, 2016

On 7/24/2016 at 5:58 AM, WendyCR72 said:

TV Line uses Comic Con 2016 to wring its last (?) drops of Castle: Nathan Fillion discusses the show ending without a "proper" goodbye and what was planned for S9.

Well, I can see that the rabid Nathan haters are well and alive. Aw, they have such a symbiotic relationship with TV Line, feeding off each other in a vicious circle. ;) When will they let it go? Do people really get off on raging irrationally and ignorantly about the same sh*t over and over again? Does it feed their own egos (and the haters' egos judging from their comments seem to be far more prominent than anyone else's from that interview)? These people are so angry and fixated on their hate it's disturbing and unhealthy. Skimming the dreadful comment section after watching that interview just confirms to me again that some Castle fans, i.e. the rabid Nathan haters, completely lack a sense of humour. (Sorry, but LOL at people not getting that the 3 day thing was a joke.) Which is ironic, to use it correctly as Castle himself would say :P, considering that the show was a show that lived on wit and humour at its best. Anyone rational with a sense of humour watching that interview would have appreciated it for the relaxed, irreverent and entertaining bit that it was. But haters are experts at reading offence into something when none exists; they've been doing that for years. It's feelings over fact. It's rage over reason. It's about the need to confirm their own preconceived or desired narrative (worldview) regardless of fact or reason, fueled by a diet of rage, anon rumors and innuendo, clickbait, trash talk, and their own ego. This is just over a TV show but you can see the same thing replicated in what's happening in politics right now, with far more severe consequences.

For anyone who needs a palate cleanser from all that, check out nerd HQ's panels from Comic Con this year. Lots of fun and generosity on display as always.

Nathan's panel was great fun and on a shallow note, he's looking quite fit these days. His charity auctions were crazy as usual. Someone bid a lot on some of his stuff and said that her husband would kill her. Nathan did a Castle pose and quipped that he would solve that murder heh. He auctioned off Castle scripts, Castle books, jacket made for Castle crew, WWRCD shirts, fan art with him and Stana and Morena ("ladies in his life" heh) amongst other miscellaneous cool crap. :P Oh, a Darth Vader and a Batman onesie! Who knew Nathan had a closet full of onesies heh? Those parts were really funny. And apparently he has his own lip balm made by Burt's Bees for him that he auctioned off as well. The things you learn heh.

They released some scenes from Con Man S2 at Comic Con (Jon Huertas is in it too), and whether that is your cup of tea or not, you've got to check out the very final scenes here of Nathan. Warning: it's quite disturbing. I cannot unsee that! I can actually envisage him playing some kind of creepy serial killer now. Cast him against type, that could be good.

Edited July 25, 2016 by madmaverick

madmaverick · July 25, 2016

Back to the show discussion, I loved that convo when Castle learned that Beckett read the New York Review of Books. Not the NYT Book review. That was the nerdy onion layer unpeeling that I could get behind and it felt like a relationship between equally smart individuals who gave as good as they got. It was cool even when we learned that Beckett read comic books. I enjoyed the new discoveries they made about each other at that stage (which, sadly, was never replicated when they became a new couple). But then, somewhere down the line it became too much and the onion layers being unpeeled became overkill and too over the top that it became a turn off rather than a turn on. By trying too hard to hit me on the head with Beckett's awesomeness (as well as badassness), they made her less appealing. It's like wanting to root for the underdog than the perfect teacher's pet all the time, if that's a valid analogy. Especially when Castle was made to be more of the class clown laughed at by the teacher's pet a lot of the time.

Not sure how others feel, but Castle and Beckett after they got together was never quite as I imagined, and perhaps the difference between how I expected them to be and what we were presented with explains part of my dissatisfaction with that period of the show. I'm not talking about story here, we've rehashed a lot of our complaints on that. I'm referring to characterisation. Maybe I've read too many fanfics where I've seen them characterised differently (better), or maybe I'm still too attached to the early incarnations of Castle and Beckett, but S5 Beckett... all so overtly happy and smiley always felt more like Stana to me than Beckett, if people understand what I mean. Of course Beckett would be happy to finally be with Castle, but I'd always imagined her as someone more reserved even when in love. Castle, I definitely imagined as being more overtly romantic, but that just didn't really materialise. In fact, them being together as written by the writers felt deflated of a lot of the romance and sexual tension of seasons before they were together. Yes, one can speculate about bts, but if it wasn't put down on the page to begin with, there was really nothing for the actors to build on. When I read fanfics that craft the early stages of their romantic relationship so well, so much of what we got onscreen just felt like a letdown.

McManda · July 25, 2016

Quote

They released some scenes from Con Man S2 at Comic Con (Jon Huertas is in it too), and whether that is your cup of tea or not, you've got to check out the very final scenes here of Nathan. Warning: it's quite disturbing. I cannot unsee that! I can actually envisage him playing some kind of creepy serial killer now. Cast him against type, that could be good.

On mobile so can't watch the clip, but didn't Nathan start as Caleb, the demon, on Buffy? Same kind of creepy role, or at least not the type of guy-next-door role he's associated with now.

turnitwayup · July 26, 2016

Now that Nathan has more time than before, maybe Criminal Minds might cast him as an unsub. It seems like Joss was the only one to give him chance to not be the guy next door as Caleb. Johnny was very guy next door and that was right before Firefly while the Caleb role was after Firefly got cancelled.

WendyCR72 · July 26, 2016

To be honest, I'm sort of stunned that Nathan Fillion never guest starred on original recipe Law & Order since the first few years of that show coincided with his time on One Life To Live, which was one of the New York-based soaps. Many soap stars were on L&O. (And, years later, many of those same soap actors and/or Broadway-based actors would also appear on spinoffs Law & Order: Special Victims Unit and Law & Order: Criminal Intent once they were "born". As well as Law & Order: Trial By Jury for its one and done season!)

I could have seen him as a perp on that show with either Ben Stone or Jack McCoy grilling him in court!

TWP · July 28, 2016

Watching Nathan answer the questions reminded me of all the times when actors' eyes roll back in their heads as they reread the non-disclosure agreements that have been tatooed to the inside of their eyelids, ha. And of course they must answer questions without actually saying anything. And Nathan did so like a champ, since he still may be under non-disclosure, or else it's just a habit, while Alan had no NDA to worry about and could quip off the cuff. Of course, the anti-Nathan crowd fed on Alan's greater likelihood to answer questions about Castle. Congrats, Alan, for giving them something more to fuel the anti-fan passion.

I have no doubt that the TVLine crowd would have watched a Beckett-less Castle.

madmaverick · July 28, 2016

If you watch a few of Nathan and Alan's interviews together, that's the way they roll. They riff off each off the cuff a lot. And that interview was more of the same; I didn't feel it to be particularly different. I imagine everyone's happy to talk about memories of the show, but no one's going to touch on anything controversial, not if they're smart.

Quote

I have no doubt that the TVLine crowd would have watched a Beckett-less Castle.

If only to rage every week in the comment section. What else would give meaning to their lives? ;)

KaveDweller · August 2, 2016

On 7/25/2016 at 3:27 PM, madmaverick said:

Not sure how others feel, but Castle and Beckett after they got together was never quite as I imagined, and perhaps the difference between how I expected them to be and what we were presented with explains part of my dissatisfaction with that period of the show. I'm not talking about story here, we've rehashed a lot of our complaints on that. I'm referring to characterisation. Maybe I've read too many fanfics where I've seen them characterised differently (better), or maybe I'm still too attached to the early incarnations of Castle and Beckett, but S5 Beckett... all so overtly happy and smiley always felt more like Stana to me than Beckett, if people understand what I mean. Of course Beckett would be happy to finally be with Castle, but I'd always imagined her as someone more reserved even when in love. Castle, I definitely imagined as being more overtly romantic, but that just didn't really materialise. In fact, them being together as written by the writers felt deflated of a lot of the romance and sexual tension of seasons before they were together. Yes, one can speculate about bts, but if it wasn't put down on the page to begin with, there was really nothing for the actors to build on. When I read fanfics that craft the early stages of their romantic relationship so well, so much of what we got onscreen just felt like a letdown.

Yeah, it wasn't really what I pictured either. That's not to say I didn't like it, because I thought head-over-heels Beckett was adorable. But it was a surprise. I was expecting more of Castle making big gestures and being excited about being together. Beckett I thought would still have some moments of nervousness about being all in, or about Castle having so much more money then her, etc. Wouldn't that S5 Christmas episode have been better if Beckett didn't want to celebrate with Castle because she felt pressure about it, rather than having to go back to her mother drama. I thought the S8 episode where Castle restored Beckett's old motorcycle was a great example of something I thought we'd see in S5.

Like you said, there were so many fanfics where that was done very well, so it is weird that the writers never seemed to remember those parts of the characters. But to give them some credit, there's also a lot of fanfics that are so much worse than the show.

KaveDweller · August 2, 2016

12 minutes ago, SweetTooth said:

I mean, someone who isn't a professional writer isn't supposed to do better than paid writers, but a lot do, so what does that say?

It says the writers are at best, lazy, and at worst, completely incompetent?

madmaverick · August 3, 2016

Here I thought we'd seen the last of TV Line Castle clickbait, but it's clear they are determined to squeeze every last drop, and try to fan the flames of the comment section evermore. How tedious. Nothing noteworthy. Just a recap of what will be on the DVD extras, info which can be found elsewhere. Blah blah blah how nothing extra from the cliffhanger that would have led to S9 will be on the DVD. Why would it be in the first place? I don't think they shot anything more than that scene of them shot on the floor. If they hadn't transitioned onto that happy families scene, I think we'd just had more of them writhing on the floor and that was the cliffhanger. I thought that was self evident and I didn't need TV Line to confirm that for me. ;) Got to love how Matt sells the article as having some 'answers', when there's actually zero noteworthy info. I promise you, there's nothing interesting there. I can save you a click. ;)

On 8/2/2016 at 8:18 AM, KaveDweller said:

Yeah, it wasn't really what I pictured either. That's not to say I didn't like it, because I thought head-over-heels Beckett was adorable. But it was a surprise. I was expecting more of Castle making big gestures and being excited about being together. Beckett I thought would still have some moments of nervousness about being all in, or about Castle having so much more money then her, etc. Wouldn't that S5 Christmas episode have been better if Beckett didn't want to celebrate with Castle because she felt pressure about it, rather than having to go back to her mother drama. I thought the S8 episode where Castle restored Beckett's old motorcycle was a great example of something I thought we'd see in S5.

Like you said, there were so many fanfics where that was done very well, so it is weird that the writers never seemed to remember those parts of the characters. But to give them some credit, there's also a lot of fanfics that are so much worse than the show.

Yeah, your take on the S5 Christmas episode would have been good. Of course I also think they completely missed the ball in really examining the relationship stuff in that episode where Meredith came back. Even that episode where they had that brief scene about how they didn't make sense on paper but made sense in real life was quite thin. I just didn't feel they tapped into any place really deep and emotional befitting of their big change into a couple in those early days of being one. I guess I'm not sure I ever saw Beckett as girly and giddy even when in love, not that I didn't want to see her happy, but it was a bit jarring for me.

Well, the writers are supposedly not allowed to read fanfic so maybe they didn't know how good some of the amateurs were doing it and were feeling quite self-satisfied with their own work. ;)

metaphor · August 3, 2016

The only thing I appreciated about that article was Hawley's reference to a time jump to the happy family. I never subscribed to the "Castle and Beckett are dead and that tag was their dying hallucination/an alternate reality" theory, but it's out there. When the writers cancelled their post-finale interviews, I lost hope that that particular take would ever be addressed. And now it has. So there's that.

Edited August 3, 2016 by metaphor

WendyCR72 · August 4, 2016

Channing Dungey made her first TCA appearance as head of ABC, and there was a bit about Castle:

Can We Stop Talking About Castle Now?
Dungey may not have appeared annoyed by lingering questions about the cancelation of aging procedural Castle (and, to a lesser degree, the CMT-salvaged Nashville). But some critics were. She emphasized that the axing of Stana Katic, for the ninth season that never came to be, was a studio call. "We were always very upfront with the studio and producers that we might not bring the show back for season nine." she said. "They did what they felt they had to do in case they got the nod." And they did not.

KaveDweller · August 4, 2016

She's kind of throwing the studio under the bus there, isn't she?

madmaverick · August 4, 2016

22 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

She's kind of throwing the studio under the bus there, isn't she?

Better them than her. ;)

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Channing Dungey made her first TCA appearance as head of ABC, and there was a bit about Castle:

Can We Stop Talking About Castle Now?
Dungey may not have appeared annoyed by lingering questions about the cancelation of aging procedural Castle (and, to a lesser degree, the CMT-salvaged Nashville). But some critics were.

Some critics were annoyed by the questions being posed or by the cancellation?

Entertainment outlets must be celebrating another round of clicks from articles with non information. ;)

I never thought any additional information would be forthcoming anyway. It's in everyone's interests to move on.

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