The Sleepy Hollow Positivity Thread - Why SH is Absolutely Brilliant

[jhlipton]

Now I need a BobbleCrane!

[MissAlmond]

The callback to SH's pilot was outstanding.  Raven Metzner, you were all sorts of wrong with your "true fans" comment, but I believe in giving credit when credit is due.  Hats off to you on coming up with that amazing sequence.  Well played, sir. 

Edited February 19, 2015 by MissAlmond

[jhlipton]

From "Feminist Movie Tests":
 
1.  Bechdel Test:
At least two named women who talk to each other about something other than a man. Abbie and Jenny; even Abbie and [yuck] Katrina
 
*NOTE:  Also passes the "Bechdel Test for People of Color": At least two named POCs who talk to each other about something other than a white person
 
2.  Mako Mori Test:
a) at least one female character; b) who gets her own narrative arc; c) that is not about supporting a man’s story. Abbie, esp first half-season
 
3.  Stereotypes Tests
Stereotypes are not used (i.e. a woman making a horrible mistake in math or navigation). If anything the stereotypes are "lamp-shaded"
 
4. Derogatory Terms Test
Male gender based derogatory terms are used equally as female gender based derogatory terms, and are made in reference to male and female characters equally (i.e. “bitch” is used once, and “dick” is used once; “whore” is used once in reference to a man, and once in reference to a female). Very few geder-based derogatory terms
 
5. Age Test
Average age of the male actors is within 5 years of the average age of the female actors. Nicole is 30, tom is 32
 
6. Casting Based On Looks Test
Average number of male actors’ previous major roles is within 5 of the average number of female actors’ previous major roles.Beharie had more roles, and many more major roles than Mison.
 
7. Sexualization Test
An equal amount of on-screen time is given to men as it is to women.  Male and females actors are dressed, shot and presented sexually in equal frequency (i.e. impractical hairstyles and clothing items such as keyhole and revealing outfits, heels, primped hair, seductive posturing, and filming that if the sound were cut out is suggestive of porn, or is shot solely to display the actor/actress).  If anything Ichabod is more sexualized than Abbie.
 
8. Romantic Involvement Test
There are an equal number of female and male actors whose actual or potential sexual, romantic involvements/interests are not shown, mentioned or alluded to. Fail -- hopefully Abbie can get her groove on
 
9. Decision-Making Test
The decisions made by the female and male actors are equal in frequency and gravity (minor and major decisions). True for the first half-season and "Tempus Fugit"
 
10. Lines Test
Equal number of speaking lines are given to male and female characters. Has anyone counted -- I think they're near even
 
That's a VERY high score!
 
==============================================

Typo for Nicole's age fixed. Thanks HalcyonDays

Edited March 22, 2015 by jhlipton

[HalcyonDays]

5. Age Test

Average age of the male actors is within 5 years of the average age of the female actors. Nicole is 20, tom is 32

 

Typo right? Beharie is 30, not 20. But at least they are close in age.

 

6. Casting Based On Looks Test

Average number of male actors’ previous major roles is within 5 of the average number of female actors’ previous major roles.Beharie had more roles, and many more major roles than Mison.

 

Even more interesting is that the WOC was cast first in the lead role, not the guy. As we all know, Mison had to chemistry test with Beharie. So basically, if Mison's chem with Beharie was anywhere close to his chem with Winter (aka completely lacking), then he would never would have been cast for the role (even though he's perfect as Crane). Everything revolved about Beharie/Abbie, which I guess might be a bit unusual in TV land. That's what makes the sidelining of Abbie in season 2 all the more strange, as she was supposed to be the core of the show.

[phoenics]

Typo right? Beharie is 30, not 20. But at least they are close in age.

 

 

Even more interesting is that the WOC was cast first in the lead role, not the guy. As we all know, Mison had to chemistry test with Beharie. So basically, if Mison's chem with Beharie was anywhere close to his chem with Winter (aka completely lacking), then he would never would have been cast for the role (even though he's perfect as Crane). Everything revolved about Beharie/Abbie, which I guess might be a bit unusual in TV land. That's what makes the sidelining of Abbie in season 2 all the more strange, as she was supposed to be the core of the show.

This is why I will NEVER believe that Goffman was in 100% power from day one. I don't think he was in control until the 2nd half of the 1st season.

[jhlipton]

Typo right? Beharie is 30, not 20. But at least they are close in age.

 

Fixed - thanks

 

This is why I will NEVER believe that Goffman was in 100% power from day one. I don't think he was in control until the 2nd half of the 1st season.

Yep!

[Miss Dee]

Phew.

I think I need to hang out in here a little while...find some people who don't think Sleepy Hollow is a suckfest waiting to happen because of a corset or a word choice from the show runners, and that somehow

all the "It's good!" tweets from previously cynical reviewers on the first episode of Season 3 are just a mere coincidence and it's the 1-2 meh/negative reviews who are speaking Bible truth.

I'm not saying it's impossible that I'll look at the first episode and groan about how awful it is, because that is a real possibility and I'm bracing myself for that. And I'm *not* including in this complaint concerns regarding the treatment of black women on shows and Abbie in particluar and their story lines and how they are viewed by the show runners or general media or the audience; that all needs to be shouted from rooftops with waving flags until someone in power finally gets a clue and starts changing things.

I just want to keep an open mind on the possibility that it might not suck! I like the idea that there will be lots of interesting women on the show. As long as Abbie comes first with Ichabod and the show runners (She. Is. The. Lead.) and the rest of them are three-dimensional and don't take over the show, I honestly love the idea that this could become female-centric.

As for shipping, I'm as big a one as you will find, but I don't expect anything from this season other than the usual slow burn and maybe a few teases on the idea. (Unless it turns out to be a last season, in which case they'll do it last minute if they do it at all.) Nor does it bother me to hear they're not concentrating on shipping behind the scenes; I've been hearing that in shows since I was tween, and they all go there in the end. And while I recognize the very real barrier to romance that racism poses, the cynical part of me says that with the success of Empire, The Flash and Shonda Rhimes shows, some bean-counter is going to finally get it in his head that the passionate shipping from a certain subset of fans might mean a romance will bring in the eyeballs if nothing else is working. So - at least right now - I'm actually more convinced there'll be potential Ichabbie a-brewin' this season than in most shows I'm watching.

I love this show. I want it to do well. I'm giving it a chance and keeping it an open mind. I really think if I gave in to the negativity and convinced myself that it's going to be a disaster and did nothing but grouse about how much it's destined to suck, then the show would have to be absolutely fucking stellar every episode in order for me to grudgingly change my mind. That's not fair to it; it should be allowed to be good, occasionally great, and get its kudos for turning the ship out of the iceberg.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Miss Dee

[HalcyonDays]

I love this show. I want it to do well. I'm giving it a chance and keeping it an open mind.

 

Me too. I'm in, gonna watch live (sorry, NFL Football), and gonna enjoy. Haven't seen anything from Clifton Campbell, so have to give this guy (and his writing team) a chance. As with last year, I won't know until I watch, if it grabs me again, and even then, have to give it a few episodes to understand where they are going, how they've laid out the season.

 

As for the Ichabbie - as I said elsewhere - if it happens, you have to set up the journey. There has to be a start - middle road of discovery - and finish. There are 18 episodes, lots of time. Either way, just entertain me.

 

This show created the amazing characters of Abbie Mills, Jenny Mills and Ichabod Crane. They are portrayed by amazing actors who I want to see on my screen. They have a beautiful chemistry when together (yes, even Jenny and Crane) that is a rarity on TV. It's fun, crazy and funny and sometimes creepy TV.

 

And, OMG - less than a week before the premiere! YES!

[phoenics]

Phew.

I think I need to hang out in here a little while...find some people who don't think Sleepy Hollow is a suckfest waiting to happen because of a corset or a word choice from the show runners, and that somehow

all the "It's good!" tweets from previously cynical reviewers on the first episode of Season 3 are just a mere coincidence and it's the 1-2 meh/negative reviews who are speaking Bible truth.

I'm not saying it's impossible that I'll look at the first episode and groan about how awful it is, because that is a real possibility and I'm bracing myself for that. And I'm *not* including in this complaint concerns regarding the treatment of black women on shows and Abbie in particluar and their story lines and how they are viewed by the show runners or general media or the audience; that all needs to be shouted from rooftops with waving flags until someone in power finally gets a clue and starts changing things.

I just want to keep an open mind on the possibility that it might not suck! I like the idea that there will be lots of interesting women on the show. As long as Abbie comes first with Ichabod and the show runners (She. Is. The. Lead.) and the rest of them are three-dimensional and don't take over the show, I honestly love the idea that this could become female-centric.

As for shipping, I'm as big a one as you will find, but I don't expect anything from this season other than the usual slow burn and maybe a few teases on the idea. (Unless it turns out to be a last season, in which case they'll do it last minute if they do it at all.) Nor does it bother me to hear they're not concentrating on shipping behind the scenes; I've been hearing that in shows since I was tween, and they all go there in the end. And while I recognize the very real barrier to romance that racism poses, the cynical part of me says that with the success of Empire, The Flash and Shonda Rhimes shows, some bean-counter is going to finally get it in his head that the passionate shipping from a certain subset of fans might mean a romance will bring in the eyeballs if nothing else is working. So - at least right now - I'm actually more convinced there'll be potential Ichabbie a-brewin' this season than in most shows I'm watching.

I love this show. I want it to do well. I'm giving it a chance and keeping it an open mind. I really think if I gave in to the negativity and convinced myself that it's going to be a disaster and did nothing but grouse about how much it's destined to suck, then the show would have to be absolutely fucking stellar every episode in order for me to grudgingly change my mind. That's not fair to it; it should be allowed to be good, occasionally great, and get its kudos for turning the ship out of the iceberg.

You just said everything that was in my head!

I WANT this show to be successful. I WANT the S1 crazy back. I WANT the awesome Ichabbie chemistry smoking up my screen. I WANT to feel happy and excited about Sleepy Hollow again.

I also WANT to keep some perspective and not panic anymore. If the show sucks, it sucks. I will attempt to enjoy it while it lasts as long as the show doesn't take jabs at us shippers (the Deliverance CPR from Crane to Katrina was a deliberate slap in the face to Ichabbie shippers - as was Katia Winters nasty tweet to fans).

Just respect the fans, show. Respect all of us. You can make us happy without taking nasty jabs at us and you can just do WELL! Give us a tight, fun mythology, some SCARY Stuff and really, REALLY bad villains and some sparkling Ichabbie chemistry, massive Abbie Mills side-eye, Ichabod Crane arrogance mixed with enough to make us pity him so we don't hate him, Ichabod Crane hilarity, Jenny BAMF and we're good.

Oh and don't let Nikki Reed take over this show and keep her in the past.

Thank you.

As for the Ichabbie - as I said elsewhere - if it happens, you have to set up the journey. There has to be a start - middle road of discovery - and finish. There are 18 episodes, lots of time. Either way, just entertain me.

To continue this point - if they had done some heavy handed Ichabbie in the premiere, that would be total fan pandering and massively obvious. It turned me off when Arrow turned on a dime like that toward Olicity (that ship has ruined that show for me), and it would be a turn off here. You can't just throw that at fans - especially the ones who are resistant to it anyway. Best to slow burn that, with a few hints here and there...

I'm remembering Tom in the gag reel turning to Nicole and going, "Now kiss me..." in his sexy voice, lol. That was so funny - and awesome because it proves Tom ships Ichabbie and clearly that is present in his chemistry with her.

Also - remember last season? The premiere was "This is War" and it got ALL of us super hyped and excited and then... the train ran off the tracks and murdered an entire village of people.

So - I'll take a quiet premiere that gets me back to some S1 SH goodness (with some improvements).

Now if Cliffy and Co become enamored with SBR to the detriment of Abbie and the show, then I reserve the right to flay them alive on twitter.

[Miss Dee]

Me too. But I'm not assuming facts not in evidence at this point.

[jhlipton]

This show created the amazing characters of Abbie Mills, Jenny Mills and Ichabod Crane. They are portrayed by amazing actors who I want to see on my screen. They have a beautiful chemistry when together (yes, even Jenny and Crane) that is a rarity on TV. It's fun, crazy and funny and sometimes creepy TV.

 

Word on the street is that Jenny will have a Real Job (cue George Thorogood!) that keeps her tied into the Witness Wackiness!  (The comic book indicates she'll be working for "antiquities" dealer.)

[Miss Dee]

I love that they're thinking about how to integrate Jenny into this world - not that she's not already, but it's through Abbie and Ichabod. This way she might be able to be the catalyst in some stories or even a driver, and not just the supporting muscle that's called in when needed.

[phoenics]

I'm happy. This makes me HAPPY. Good for Jenny and good for us!

Now - if only we could figure out how to resurrect the Freemasons! Ichabod is a mason - why oh why did they kill them off. That was one aspect of S1 SH that I loved - for the brief time we had them.

[DearEvette]

I am being cautiously optimistic.  I love, love, love the regular addition of Joe and what looks like the real involvement of Jenny this early signals promising things.  I am a survivor of the S2 wars but i can't fall down the rabbit hole of anxiety and have bad feelings of S3 before it even airs.  I remember when the news first came out about Abbie being transported back in time and being mistaken for a runaway slave, people damn near lost their minds and were planning to boycott.  But Tempus Fugit turned out to be the best episode of S2 hands down, imo.  I think I've watched it like 5 times!

 

First and foremost I want a great, fun storyline with lots of Ichabod & Abbie doing awesome things.  I can handle an expanded group as long as it doesn't diminish Abbie, Jenny or Ichabod.   Katrina didn't just sideline Abbie, she also in subtle ways damaged Ichabod as a character as well.  But this is the positivity thread so i won't go into that!

 

Anyway, I am all for giving us awesome new characters and monsters.  I am watching for the story and the core characters first.  I don't watch for the ship -- although I do think Ichabbie are fiyah and I am a low-key shipper!  But a romance for them is not my priority in watching the show.  A healthy relationship between the two? Yes. Them being ride or die for each other? Yes.  Them being the leads without question, driving story narrative and focus? Absolutely!  Romance... not necessarily.   Don't get me wrong, if we get some Ichabbie luvin' I would be all "hells, yeah." but I don't need it right now and it won't bother me if Ich & Ab see other people.  As long as those other people don't interfere with Ich & Ab's total awesomeness.  And especially if those other people don't derail the story from Ich & Ab.

 

I plan to watch live because, even though I like Scandal, it ceased being appointment tv for me a couple of years ago,  And on a basic level I get way more just plain old enjoyment from watching SH than I do Scandal.   I'm also gonna dvr SH (or at least play) the episode again soon after.  Not being a Nielsen family, my live watch won't matter when it comes to ratings.  But my DVR will.

[MissAlmond]

 

I am a survivor of the S2 wars but i can't fall down the rabbit hole of anxiety and have bad feelings of S3 before it even airs.  I remember when the news first came out about Abbie being transported back in time and being mistaken for a runaway slave, people damn near lost their minds and were planning to boycott.  But Tempus Fugit turned out to be the best episode of S2 hands down, imo.

 

 I remember the storm before the airing of Tempus Fugit.  That was just so . . .      I readily admit I was totally on the Bring Me the Head of Mark Goffman! train.  But by the end, I grew tired.  All I really wanted was the SH I enjoyed back and when that happened, I vowed to give it a second chance.  So no spoilers, no previews for me.  Or at least, only a quick look and out.   It's Sleepy Hollow Live!   Thursday night here I come. 

[Miss Dee]

*sigh* It's time to take refuge in here again. I'd never say that SH doesn't have issues and couldn't improve, but it is NOWHERE as bad as it was in Season 2. In fact, I'm enjoying it a good deal.

[LeeLeePanda]

Miss Dee, I'll take refuge with you for the time being. I really like this season so far. It's not perfect, and it will probably not reach season 1 levels. But so far I'm entertained, and some times that's all I ask for in a tv show.

[HalcyonDays]

*sigh* It's time to take refuge in here again. I'd never say that SH doesn't have issues and couldn't improve, but it is NOWHERE as bad as it was in Season 2. In fact, I'm enjoying it a good deal.

Miss Dee, I'll take refuge with you for the time being. I really like this season so far. It's not perfect, and it will probably not reach season 1 levels. But so far I'm entertained, and some times that's all I ask for in a tv show.

 

Me too. I'm enjoying the episodes, enjoying Pandora ALOT. I am very interested and curious as to what her ultimate plan, and like how they are giving us little pieces of the puzzle and hints here and there. It's MUCH better than season 2 (granted, it is a low bar), but I'm enjoying it. Tomorrow's episode (This Red Lady from Caribee) looks good too. I even have a little of the excitement and anticipation back that I used to feel in season 1, in that I am really looking forward to the episodes.

[DearEvette]

Me Three.  I am enjoying the heck out of S3.  BR is the only sour note and only because I need her inclusion to be better the for story and so far she isn't bringing it.  But she's been on so little that I can largely forgive that.  But everything else is working for me.  I honestly think that the structure we are seeing is something Fox has demanded and the writers & CC has done a good job of incorporating the faves and telling a story that I think is smarter than people give it credit for.

[Eun Soo]

Count me in.  I'm enjoying S3, and my shipper heart is still beating strong.  I love Ichabbie, Abbie and Jenny, Crane and Jenny, Joenny, and Pandora and her treevil (love that name but can't remember where I got it).  Could do without BR and Zoe as I would rather see Crane with Ben Franklin in the past or Abbie, Jenny, Joe or how about Reynolds in the present (bet that would be fun).

[MissAlmond]

Count  me in the list of those enjoying S3. The addition of Pandora has been wonderful, better than Moloch IMO.  Still miss Headless but while Pandora isn't wielding an axe and assault rifle, she's messing with Abbie on much more fertile ground -  the fears Abbie keeps buried in her mind. 

 

Crane always has these silly little crushes, he’s one of those falling in love with love types at the moment.   This Zoe isn't worth the energy for me to get upset about; she'll be gone in due course of time.  Betsy "Fast Forward" Ross, OTOH,  most likely does serve a purpose and once it's revealed, I'll go back and watch her scenes.  Maybe.  Frankly, I'm even fine with  the amount of time Reynolds is on the screen.  He and Abbie can share a drink, repeat their "Didn't we almost have it all" conversation whereupon he can move along his way. 

 

 

What I’m loving about S3 is what DearEvette mentioned: I think S3 has a smarter story underneath with Pandora playing psychological  games with Abbie and, to a lesser extent, Crane. I don't see Abbie as a too strong woman, I see her as very vulnerable and hides behind a mask of strength.  That is what Pandora is exploiting.  Pandora, after all, had her father fed to the lions only later to realize she was more upset than she thought.  WTH?  One can (perhaps) run from Headless but how do you get rid of the fears that haunt you late at night?

 

So yes, as a shipper I’m enjoying S3.  At the moment we have two flawed characters who aren't even ready for true love.   I can wait for when that happens.

Edited November 6, 2015 by MissAlmond

[Miss Dee]

Exactly! I would find it very out if character for either Ichabod or Abbie to consider going there with the other right now. I'm happy with the reminders of their closeness and their unshakeable bond (despite whatever Mr./Miss Right Nows get thrown their way).

[Criminey]

Is this 'Sleepy Hollow Underground'? I'll join you all here and confess my love for this show.

I'm not a fan of SBR and wonder how long Ichabod will be enamored of Zoe; but I'm sticking with the show. However, as much as I enjoy Ichabod, I must see Captain Crane soon!

[Miss Dee]

She's not my favourite, but she's not suckling the show down for me. She's just there. As long as neither she nor Zoe overshadow Abbie or Jenny, I'm good.

Am I the only one starting to think Joe Corbin is a hot piece of ass?

[LeeLeePanda]

She's not my favourite, but she's not suckling the show down for me. She's just there. As long as neither she nor Zoe overshadow Abbie or Jenny, I'm good.

Am I the only one starting to think Joe Corbin is a hot piece of ass?

I didn't mind SBR this week. I still have an issue with Zoe, but that's for another thread.

I'd tap Joe Corbin. I have no shame,lol.

[Enero]

Another person here chiming in to say I'm enjoying S3. I don't care much for SBR but at least the last couple of times she's been shown it wasn't as disruptive to the episode as it was earlier in the season.

I think the addition of Joe Corbin was a smart move. He fits in nicely with the group.

I'm happy to see that the core of the storylines seem to revolve around the Mills sisters. That's certainly an improvement over last season.

There's still much room for improvement. I'd still like to see a more well rounded Abbie i.e. at least entertaining romance or sex onscreen. She's the only one of the main four who is not getting any action.

I like that Crane is getting his citizenship, but I'd like to see him get a real job with a paycheck. Perhaps his pursuit of the archives will yield this?

Pandora has been a menacing and intriguing villain. The best the show has had. However, I'd like to see her end game have some stakes and be intertwined more with the witnesses plights ala Moloch in S1. Will we ever find out more about the tablet Crane found that had a carving of the witnesses? I hope so.

I think the writers have done fairly well with trying to turn the show around. I've at least been intrigued and entertained for most of the season. Good season, so far.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Enero

[jhlipton]

I'm happy to see that the core of the storylines seem to revolve around the Mills sisters. That's certainly an improvement over last season.

 

1000 times YES!