John Winchester: Daddy Dearest

[rue721]

Oh wait. Sam and Dean talked about how it had been a couple years since they'd seen/talked to each other, so I guess for the first couple years that Sam was in school they did keep in contact? Maybe Dean and John would go up to Stanford, but only Dean would actually get in touch with and visit Sam? While John creepily skulked in the background, lol.

[DittyDotDot]

Is it actually a fact that he went and checked up on Sam at Stanford? I just don't see how Dean would even know if he did, I thought it was a white lie that Dean told Sam because Sam was about to see John again and was nervous. Not that it couldn't have happened, it sounds plausible (considering that John did similarly when Dean called for his help in "Home") and it would make sense if it did, but it's unsubstantiated, I think? Are we supposed to take it as a given?

 

From Bugs:

 

Dean: I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases comin' out of your mouth.

Sam: You know, truth is, when we finally do find Dad... I don't know if he's even gonna wanna see me.

Dean: Sam, Dad was never disappointed in you. Never. He was scared.

Sam: What are you talkin' about?

Dean: He was afraid of what could've happened to you if he wasn't around. But even when you two weren't talkin'... he used to swing by Stanford whenever he could. Keep an eye on you. Make sure you were safe.

Sam: What?

Dean: Yeah.

Sam: Why didn't you tell me any of that?

Dean: Well, it's a two-way street, dude. You could've picked up the phone. (SAM stares at him sadly.) Come on, we're gonna be late for our appointment.

 

I always assumed Dean was being sincere, from his perspective anyway. That's the thing. To Dean, he would only see John's "watching" over Sam as him protecting Sam. I tend to think John was checking in to see if Sam had gone dark side, rather than actually watching over him. More like he was waiting for the moment he'd probably have to kill Sam than trying to find a way to save him.

[rue721]

I always assumed Dean was being sincere, from his perspective anyway. That's the thing. To Dean, he would only see John's "watching" over Sam as him protecting Sam. I tend to think John was checking in to see if Sam had gone dark side, rather than actually watching over him. More like he was waiting for the moment he'd probably have to kill Sam than trying to find a way to save him.

 

What I think is more hurtful about John coming to watch Sam without contacting him is, as long as he *wasn't* coming, it could maybe have been because he just couldn't bear to see Sam living [a life away from John/out from under John's control]. It could have just been out of hurt/anger/rejection that John couldn't see Sam once Sam left them. But if he actually did just hang out watching Sam, he proved that he *could* bear to see him. So then it seems like he was not contacting him was just to punish him. In that case, it wasn't that he couldn't get in contact with Sam not because he couldn't bear to see Sam while feeling that Sam had "abandoned" him, but rather he couldn't get in contact with Sam because he was still trying to strong-arm and punish Sam into coming back, and the silent treatment/estrangement was part of that.

 

I think that, in a way, Dean is naive about John because Dean worked so hard to appease him and worked so hard to be "a true believer" that John didn't have to get into really entrenched conflicts with him. Also, even now I think that Dean thinks protection = love. That's a huge conflict between him and Sam imo, because Sam doesn't think that way, and so doesn't interpret Dean's (over)protectiveness toward him as love (but rather as distrust or disrespect) and doesn't understand why Dean gets upset when Sam says he wouldn't protect or rescue him from [whatever] (even though, imo, Sam usually means those things as signs of trust or respect). For Dean, I think that he sees safety or protection as something precious in a way that neither Sam nor John do, which is also why he has feelings about building a home or finding sanctuary that they apparently don't. So when Dean told Sam that John was watching over Sam while he was at Stanford, I *do* think he meant it as proof that John was still trying to protect Sam even after Sam left, as a way of saying that John still loved Sam. I think that Dean was sincere and truthful in the sense that, regardless of whether John actually did go spy on Sam at Stanford or not (which maybe doesn't even matter since obviously John did do that kind of thing at other times (during S1)), imo Dean did truly believe that John continued to love Sam after Sam left.

 

In general, though, I think that Sam is much more straightforward and concrete and cares more about what's literally happening than what it symbolizes/means. Imo, Sam was reassured by the idea of John coming to Stanford and watching him there, because it meant that John wasn't going to blow up at the sight of him (i.e., didn't actually hate him) and that it didn't have to be a secret that he was with Dean and looking for him. He knew it meant that it was likely John would accept him back into the fold if/when they saw each other again.

 

As to why John *really* would have come to watch Sam, I think it could have been a mixture of a lot of things, and wouldn't have to have one motivation. I think he really would have wanted to check on him in case Sam needed help (like how he showed up to keep watch over his sons after Dean called him for help in "Home"), and I think he would also have been perversely hopeful that Sam *would* need his help, since that would teach Sam a lesson for leaving him. So I think he might have been also checking to see if Sam had gone "bad" or if his life were shit, since that would have proven John right and proven that Sam shouldn't have left. He might have also been tracking YED or other demons and they might have led him to Sam, since Sam was also under YED's watch at that time, so that might have been a reason he was going to Stanford (which he could have covered up to Dean by telling Dean he was going there to check on Sam).

[supposebly]

I agree. I don't see why there has to be only one reason why John checked up on Sam.

 

Dean, while hero-worshiping his father at the time still, also knew him well. So, I don't think Dean was in some way delusional about John being worried.

 

And then fear Sam could go darkside, although I don't know if that was something John expected at that point. We know he knew about the other children but for how long? We don't know. Also, not all the other children went darkside, so depending on which children John knew about, he might not even have known about the going-darkside possibility.

Fear that Sam would find something outside the family and the family business, I'm sure.

Fear that something would eat him because he would become "rusty", absolutely.

 

And didn't Jerry at the airport in Phantom Traveler tell them how John bragged about Sam?

 

Jerry: Your dad said you were off to College, is that right?

Sam: Yeah I was. I'm taking some time off.

Jerry: He was real proud of you, I could tell. He talked about you all the time.

Sam: He did?

Jerry: Yeah, you bet he did.

[AwesomO4000]

And didn't Jerry at the airport in Phantom Traveler tell them how John bragged about Sam?

 

Jerry: Your dad said you were off to College, is that right?

Sam: Yeah I was. I'm taking some time off.

Jerry: He was real proud of you, I could tell. He talked about you all the time.

Sam: He did?

Jerry: Yeah, you bet he did.

 

I always thought that that scene / exchange was weird. * Even if John was somehow proud of Sam for going to college - which seems weird in itself - it seems odd to me that he'd be bragging about it. 1) it's telling family business - which doesn't seem like something paranoid John would do: "yeah I have a kid off in college" just told a mostly stranger - who could be something/someone dangerous - that he has a son somewhere out there alone. Then that stranger could potentially track down Sam Winchester if he wanted to. and 2) John doesn't seem like the type of person who would have the need to brag - about anything. He seems more to me like the type who would think "you don't like the way I look / do things / talk? Well, I don't give a shit what you think." There are some people who are gruff on the exterior but really sensitive underneath and want / need people to like them. My grampa is like that. I don't think John Winchester is like that at all.

 

* I may have already mentioned this somewhere, so I apologize if I did.

[supposebly]

I actually had the impression that Jerry and John got kinda close. Well, as close as John ever got to someone.

 

I don't know, just the way he talked about him it felt like there was a familiarity. Jerry seemed like he liked John.

 

Maybe Jerry was one of the very few people who maybe got to see a bit of what was left of young John.

[rue721]

I always thought that that scene / exchange was weird. * Even if John was somehow proud of Sam for going to college - which seems weird in itself - it seems odd to me that he'd be bragging about it. 1) it's telling family business - which doesn't seem like something paranoid John would do: "yeah I have a kid off in college" just told a mostly stranger - who could be something/someone dangerous - that he has a son somewhere out there alone. Then that stranger could potentially track down Sam Winchester if he wanted to. and 2) John doesn't seem like the type of person who would have the need to brag - about anything. He seems more to me like the type who would think "you don't like the way I look / do things / talk? Well, I don't give a shit what you think." There are some people who are gruff on the exterior but really sensitive underneath and want / need people to like them. My grampa is like that. I don't think John Winchester is like that at all.

 

* I may have already mentioned this somewhere, so I apologize if I did.

 

I don't think John cared about people liking him, but I think he cared about people respecting him. It seems totally plausible to me that Jerry bragged a little about his own son who was in college or who was a good student, and John had to throw his weight around by saying that he's got a son like that, too, ONLY MORE SO, and so he knows EVERYTHING athat Jerry's talking about already. I don't think John was *that* abrasive really, but I think he liked being the authority and would be really sensitive to seeming like some no-nothing schmuck (i.e., someone with no authority). I don't even think that's about ego, per se, I think John was just a huge control freak.

 

What was that episode when they went back in time, and were hiding out from Anna in a cabin? Young!John had learned about the supernatural like ten seconds previously, and he was *on Dean's case* to teach him how to guard the place, including how to make a sigil. So Dean went along with it, but then said John should probably leave actual painting the sigil it up to him because it had to be in human blood -- but practically as the words "human blood" left his mouth, John was slicing open his palm. Then John went into a rant about how he's NOT HELPLESS!!!1! So I guess John has a thing about helplessness and control, and always did?

[supposebly]

From the 6.02 Thread. We were talking about child raising and who should have been resurrected instead of Gramps Campbell. I went off on a tangent about how I find that Mary never got trashed as much for her choices as John did.

rue721 asked:

 

What do you mean by her sanctification? All those dull memories and stories of Dean's?

 

It's mostly that the show has trashed John so much in recent years for his parenting and how he raised them while Mary is this symbol of the perfect mother or the awesome hunter chick while her choices sold out her son before he was even born. I understand it was under duress and she might have hoped that there might be nothing to it.

What I can't forgive her is that she didn't tell John after she had Sam and instead of preparing, she chose to live the "apple-pie" life in denial until it was too late and left John to pick up the pieces with the trauma, no knowledge, an infant and a 4year-old with the slow realization that there might be a target on Sam's back from God-knows-what. I would have started running too. And the most important thing I saw from young!John was that he was not someone who would just idly sit around waiting for stuff to happen.

Edited December 18, 2014 by supposebly

[catrox14]

From the 6.02 Thread. We were talking about child raising and who should have been resurrected instead of Ramps Campbell. I went of a tangent about how I find that Mary never got trashed as much for her choice as John did.

rue721 asked:

It's mostly that the show has trashed John so much in recent years for his parenting and how he raised them while Mary is this symbol of the perfect mother or the awesome hunter chick while her choices sold out her son before he was even born. I understand it was under duress and she might have hoped that there might be nothing to it.

What I can't forgive her is that she didn't tell John after she had Sam and instead of preparing, she chose to live the "apple-pie" life in denial until it was too late and left John to pick up the pieces with the trauma, no knowledge, an infant and a 4year-old with the slow realization that there might be a target on Sam's back from God-knows-what. I would have started running too. And the most important thing I saw from young!John was that he was not someone who would just idly sit around waiting for stuff to happen.

I just can't be mad at Mary considering how young she was when YED fucked with her life. She lost everyone. She saw her father, mother and fiancee murdered. She was desperate.

[supposebly]

Oh, I don't fault her for the deal. I fault her for letting herself and John be unprepared and live in denial. Her inactivity.

She had about 5 years to find a solution, enlighten John, possibly endanger her "apple-pie" life and not have a second son. Anything instead of letting John be blindsided and possibly lose her son.

 

5 years of fake happiness and then John had to deal with the aftermath. Unprepared.

 

That's what I fault her for. Not the deal as such.

 

Well, and the show for never letting anyone go on and say as much.

Edited December 18, 2014 by supposebly

[catrox14]

I'm not following the live in fake happiness thing. I thought Mary and Johns memories were wiped by Michael?

[supposebly]

As I understood, only the memories of when Sam and Dean came by and a terminator angel tried to kill them. And what Dean told her about how she would die.

 

Michael said nothing about scrubbing the deal. And she recognized YED when he was in the nursery.

Edited December 18, 2014 by supposebly

[7kstar]

Oh, I don't fault her for the deal. I fault her for letting herself and John be unprepared and live in denial. Her inactivity.

She had about 5 years to find a solution, enlighten John, possibly endanger her "apple-pie" life and not have a second son. Anything instead of letting John be blindsided and possibly lose her son.

 

5 years of fake happiness and then John had to deal with the aftermath. Unprepared.

 

That's what I fault her for. Not the deal as such.

 

Well, and the show for never letting anyone go on and say as much.

Part of it, is the idealizing the dead, don't speak ill of them.  Mary lived in denial.  Dean is understandable, his life in a way stopped at 4 and he can't talk bad about her.  Even John he has a hard time speaking bad about. 

 

Sam is the one that could speak about this and it would make sense, but no Mary wasn't a saint and I don't think John is the abusive father of the year.  I think he did the best he could living under all the fear and he even admits that he started thinking of his boys as soldiers, which really says a lot.  This is how he can make sure they live through the battle.

 

But I don't expect the show to deal with this, because they barely deal well with the dark stuff.  They bring it up just to drop it. 

 

The one line I really loved from this season, He may not win Father of the year, but he was there when you needed him.  Which I think is the major issue with dysfunctional families.  You put up with the negative because the good outweighs the bad.  This was the part I liked about the early years.  I still believe there is more good than bad for John.  I also thing that Dark of the Moon showed that not everything was a simple as Sam thought about his family.

 

I even wonder if the Story Sam was so wanting Dean to tell Cas at the bar in the last show was really true.  Or how much truth does Sam really know.  Could it have been another yarn to tell Sam, so he didn't really know the real issues? 

[Frost]

 

though I think Dean more often was put in the role of "the failure" or "the weak link" than "the bad son" specifically

 

I just stumbled on this thread today and it's a really interesting discussion.  I haven't seen any mention of John leaving Dean at the reform school.  Didn't the counselor say John could have picked Dean up earlier?  I can't remember his motivation.  Was he teaching Dean a lesson?

[rue721]

Mary is this symbol of the perfect mother or the awesome hunter chick while her choices sold out her son before he was even born.

 

When she's just a symbol and John and Dean's version of "Remember the Alamo!" there's really no room for her to be an actual character. It's like how Dean said, "their marriage was only perfect after she was dead." That's because after she was dead, she became just a piece of propaganda. Everything about her that wouldn't have been useful as propaganda got edited out.

 

Not that I would expect anyone within the family to talk bad about her, anyway, definitely not John or Dean since they actually remember her, and none of the characters outside the family did know her. Tbh, I find that Dean and Sam are a bit harsh in how they talk about John now that he's dead, too, though. Stories about actual things that happened are fair game, but the value judgments, like how they'll always preface things with how he wasn't the best? Idk, I find that unnecessary and strange. They were both there, why say things like that? And if they're talking about him to a friend, wouldn't they just tell the relevant story and not make some unflattering blanket statements about him as a parent?

 

What I can't forgive her is that she didn't tell John after she had Sam and instead of preparing, she chose to live the "apple-pie" life in denial until it was too late and left John to pick up the pieces with the trauma, no knowledge, an infant and a 4year-old with the slow realization that there might be a target on Sam's back from God-knows-what.

 

Maybe Mary thought that she could protect her family if she stuck close to them? Maybe she thought that she could make the house into a sanctuary for them? Dean had that same dilemma in S6, when he kept going back and forth on whether it was safer to draw the supernatural away from his family by leaving them, or safer to just expect the supernatural to come to them in any case and sit tight with them in order to make sure they're ready. Maybe John also had the same dilemma while raising the kids, and that's why he would hole them up separate from him for stints but keep them moving with him across the country, too.

 

Mary couldn't have expected to die so early, her ten-year deal wasn't for her soul/death, I don't think, so maybe she was still figuring it out and thought she had the time to do that. I do think she should have told John and gotten him prepared to protect the kids just in case something happened to her, but she didn't. Maybe she wanted to keep the supernatural out of their home for as long as possible and waited too long. It's a screw up, but what can ya do.

 

I guess that's how I feel about her choices generally (and John's). She seemed to me like she tried her best, made some mistakes or was too weak/impulsive/desperate sometimes, then died too early to fix her mistakes or maybe even to learn what her mistakes were and their consequences.

 

ETA:

 

I just stumbled on this thread today and it's a really interesting discussion.  I haven't seen any mention of John leaving Dean at the reform school.  Didn't the counselor say John could have picked Dean up earlier?  I can't remember his motivation.  Was he teaching Dean a lesson?

 

Yes, I think he was teaching Dean a lesson. IIrc, while John was gone, Dean had lost their money, tried to steal some food, and got caught -- that's how he ended up in reform school. Apparently, John tracked him down, but left him there as punishment for screwing up. John was very lucky that Dean was an obedient kid! Leaving him like that could have gone so far awry if it had become a battle of wills imo. He wasn't a young kid, he was like 15? 16?

Edited December 18, 2014 by rue721

[catrox14]

I thought Michael wiped her memories

including the deal with the YED which left it to John to figure out after Mary died.

Edited December 18, 2014 by catrox14

[supposebly]

If that were true then Mary wouldn't have recognized YED in the nursery.

He might have been manipulating things when he showed Sam what happened but I can't see why or how. That would require that he knew that her memories were wiped by Michael. He wasn't around at the time as far as we know. As far as he knew, he showed Sam what happened.

 

 

Maybe Mary thought that she could protect her family if she stuck close to them? Maybe she thought that she could make the house into a sanctuary for them?

 

The deal was about giving YED permission to enter her house.

 

Michael wanted the apocalypse and the prize fight to happen, that's why he wiped their memories so they would have two sons for vessels. He didn't care one way or another whether she would die AFTER she had Sam and Dean.

YED killed Mary because she got in the way. Accident. Partly because she didn't remember what Dean told her. Less accidental: because she lived in denial about the deal for about 10 years.

The deal was about 10 years if I remember correctly. So, that means that The Song Remains the Same (when she is pregnant with Dean) is 5 years after In the Beginning. Dean is about 4 years and 10 months when she dies.

 

She actually had 10 years to do something. That does not feel like she did her best. She did nothing.

Edited December 18, 2014 by supposebly

[Demented Daisy]

The deal was about giving YED permission to enter her house.

 

*snip*

 

She actually had 10 years to do something. That does not feel like she did her best. She did nothing.

 

What is it you expected her to do?  Everything the show has told us is that you can't get out of a deal.  I'd argue that she ran into the room to try to save her son, but Azazel was ready for her.  For all we know, her house was warded to the gills, but the deal gave Azazel access.

 

Considering the show has never addressed it, we can't possibly know what she did or did not do, IMO.

[rue721]

She actually had 10 years to do something.

 

But 10 years to do what? Train John? I have to say that in her predicament, I wouldn't have opened up to John and trained him, either, because he clearly has a side to him that's intense and obsessive and it would definitely have ruined their family life to have had him start down the path of trying to "protect" them -- and without necessarily making John a better "protector" of the family than Mary already was, either. Also, personally, in Mary's place, I would have been afraid to tell John about any of that stuff thinking that he might then feel some moral imperative to protect/help *other* people or to try and protect Mary, and end up throwing himself into danger that way. Hell no, she didn't bring him back just so he could get himself killed, lol.

 

I think that Mary was probably more afraid of losing the rest of the family than of dying herself, anyway, since she'd lost everyone once before. She may have thought letting the supernatural into the family by informing and training John and the kids would be *more* of a risk than just letting them live normally/keep out of trouble and sticking around as their guard. So maybe she had some hubris and thought she could handle more than she actually could, or maybe the family just had bad luck (or a combination). It's messed up that she decided to put it all on her own shoulders and keep her own secrets, but it's pretty normal human stuff imo. Again, I think Dean takes after her!

 

Also, who even knows what Mary herself was up to during those ten years. For all we know, she did investigate YED but never got anywhere, or found stuff out but wasn't able to put it to any use. We've gotten very little of her POV.

 

I don't think that she's a saint, but I don't think she's especially condemnable, either. But I would expect that her family would talk about her as a saint, in any case. First off, because nobody is going to talk about the dead love of their life or their long-dead mother in a harsh way. And because imo you can't be talking about all the ways a fridged woman was a screw up or really anything about her as an actual person rather than as a symbol of ~the perfect victim~, if you want to keep using her as the impetus for a lifelong vengeance quest.

[supposebly]

Well, telling John. Prepare him. Contact hunters. Her anger at hearing that Sam and Dean were raised as hunters before she knows who they are was rather telling for me. She really stayed out of it and it feels like she pretended it never happened. True, we don't really know if she did anything but she certainly was all Hunting for children! Ew! When she was already married to John.

 

Miles may vary. I think it's more what ticks me off is that John gets the grief on how he dealt with the aftermath while it is partly her fault that he was completely caught off guard. For her death, the supernatural and everything.

[rue721]

Well, telling John. Prepare him. Contact hunters.

 

I think it was a combination of arrogance and fear that kept her from telling him. It did turn out badly in the end, but I can see why she'd tell herself that she'd protect the whole family herself rather than putting John and the kids at risk by dragging them into the supernatural stuff directly. And she brought John back from the dead, she's got to have been very protective of him after that.

 

It's not definite that things would have been *better* if she had told him ahead of time anyway. That would have ruined their life together earlier by bringing the supernatural into it and freaking John the hell out, but would it have actually saved her or saved any of them? Would it have been less risky? It might have been, but it might not.

 

At least by not telling him, she had a shot at dealing with the 10-year consequences herself and keeping the rest of the family out of anything related to hunting. Things didn't end up breaking that way, but I would think that's what she was aiming for. She didn't end up being able to protect them, it was probably just hubris that made her think she could in the first place, but just because her best wasn't good enough doesn't mean it wasn't her best.

 

I don't think that John was a bad person, though, either. I think he did a very good job considering the circumstances. Raising two very young kids alone, in a world where demons can come into your home and murder your loved ones on any given night, even while you sleep just a room or two away? It must have seemed pointless to just try and guard his kids by sticking close by them after Mary was murdered right in the nursery, he must have thought he had to go after the threats to them directly. Such a terrifying situation.

 

I can see why his sons have their problems with him, because their childhoods sound terrible. The no friends, no neighbors thing is always what kills me. I'm a city girl -- thinking of growing up without neighbors or not in neighborhoods, it blows my mind. But I don't think that he felt like he had a choice really, and he did the best he could by them. Which was much, much better than most fathers could do by their kids, imo. But like I said, I just straight up like the guy for some reason, and always have, so I tend to cut him lots of slack (maybe too much, Idk).

 

ETA:

 

Her anger at hearing that Sam and Dean were raised as hunters before she knows who they are was rather telling for me.

 

Oh yeah, I remember what scene that was now. Ugh it chokes me up just thinking about it, that must have been so horrible for Dean to hear, can't even imagine.

 

But I guess trying to keep her husband and kids totally ignorant of of the supernatural and out of hunting was Mary's way of sticking by her conviction that raising kids in the hunting life is wrong.

Edited December 18, 2014 by rue721

[supposebly]

 

It's not definite that things would have been *better* if she had told him ahead of time anyway.

 

Oh, I don't think things would have been all that better overall. Although, there was really no reason for Mary to die, was there? Maybe John would have died instead, who knows.

I do think if John had been better prepared, maybe he wouldn't have been so out of it when it came to raising Sam and Dean. Also, maybe, just maybe, he might not have been quite as obsessive had he known that YED's presence was partly due to Mary's deal.

I'm also not so sure why she was so against hunting. Granted, it's a bith fishy overall, but her family life was just fine.

 

If Mary had raised a hunter family like her father did, I just think, for John's mental health, the trauma might have been not quite as bad had he known what was out there. He might not have put so much on Dean. Maybe he would have waited a little longer until he put a gun in Dean's hand. Also with knowledge of a hunter network from the get-go, he would have had help right away, instead of stumbling about trying to figure out what happened by himself. With an infant and a traumatized child.

 

Could have, would have, should have. ;-)

 

 

And because imo you can't be talking about all the ways a fridged woman was a screw up or really anything about her as an actual person rather than as a symbol of ~the perfect victim~, if you want to keep using her as the impetus for a lifelong vengeance quest.

 

True. I just think then they shouldn't have gone back in time twice and made her an actual character. I remember thinking. So Sam is ok hearing that his mother made a deal with YED? And he has no comment about that whatsoever? I found that incredible.

 

Objectively, with the exception of Dean, I really don't see why Sam should have any sentiments about family.

 

ETA:

Maybe, if John had died that night, she would have ended just as obsessive as him, considering she made the deal to save his live.

Edited December 18, 2014 by supposebly

[SueB]

I've assumed that Dean's and Sam's points of view about John would be skewed because they're his kids. Not that they're lying or *way* off or something, but their perspective is going to be different from how the rest of the world would see/judge John, because of course it would be, he's their dad, so they have a different relationship to him than the rest of the world does. Who has a clear-eyed view of their own parents?

This x1000.

And after they pass away, you relationship with your parents STILL changes as you change.  They are such a part of you (presuming they were in your life).

I have nothing wrong with Sam and Dean acknowledging a f*ckup up childhood and still loving their Dad and remembering good things about him post death.  It's kind of a healing.  If they completely forgot the bad and then emulated it...not so good.  But I think they know they had a screwed up childhood and that John had issues.  But I'm totally accepting of them loving him.

[AwesomO4000]

{excerpts]: If that were true then Mary wouldn't have recognized YED in the nursery.

The deal was about giving YED permission to enter her house.

 

The deal was about 10 years if I remember correctly. So, that means that The Song Remains the Same (when she is pregnant with Dean) is 5 years after In the Beginning. Dean is about 4 years and 10 months when she dies.

 

She actually had 10 years to do something. That does not feel like she did her best. She did nothing.

I agree - see also below...

 

What is it you expected her to do?  Everything the show has told us is that you can't get out of a deal.  I'd argue that she ran into the room to try to save her son, but Azazel was ready for her.  For all we know, her house was warded to the gills, but the deal gave Azazel access.

 

Considering the show has never addressed it, we can't possibly know what she did or did not do, IMO.

 

This may sound awful or cold, but there was something Mary could have done and we know she did not do - not have children. Mary was very young when she married John, and knowing that she had something hanging over her head in 10 years meant that - in my opinion - she perhaps should not have brought children into the picture until she knew what that something was. John had been willing apparently to wait for about 5 years or so, I don't think it would have been out of the question for him to wait 5 more, since because they were young, they had time. So before she got pregnant with Dean would have been the time to fess up about the deal, and if John couldn't then understand why she wouldn't want to bring children into such a situation, that should have told her something. And if she had Dean to try to "save the marriage," knowing that something was coming at the 10 year anniversary, then that would have been even worse and in my opinion definitely something that she shouldn't have done. Mary should have been stronger than that based on what we saw of her.

 

The fact that I don't have children myself may be coloring my opinion here, but if I knew I had some kind of deal with a demon hanging over my head where I knew that there would be some sort of price, I would definitely not bring an innocent child into the situation - never mind two - and I would make damn sure it couldn't happen even if that meant two forms of birth control if necessary. And if my husband couldn't understand that and insisted on a child anyway... I wouldn't think the marriage would be worth saving, because if anyone would be willing to endanger or disadvantage a child because they couldn't wait a  little longer, I wouldn't want to be married to that person. (My personal opinion only here, I understand.)

 

I also understand that "fate" played a part in this and maybe likely would have intervened anyway, but the flashbacks seemed to be showing Mary happy that she was going to have a child and telling unborn Dean that angels were watching over him... all of that just flashes warning bells that there was extreme denial going on, because if Mary had been thinking, in my opinion, there would not have been optimism. Tthere would have been worry and planning (perhaps to give Dean away to protect him). She knew a demon was coming to do something in 10 years... thinking angels were watching and would protect them - and it was sort of ironic that they were, but in a bad way - to me was a big trip into the Land of Denial, especially since she was a former hunter and entirely aware of the bad that was out there.

 

I do think if John had been better prepared, maybe he wouldn't have been so out of it when it came to raising Sam and Dean. Also, maybe, just maybe, he might not have been quite as obsessive had he known that YED's presence was partly due to Mary's deal.

 

I'm also not so sure why she was so against hunting. Granted, it's a bith fishy overall, but her family life was just fine.

 

If Mary had raised a hunter family like her father did, I just think, for John's mental health, the trauma might have been not quite as bad had he known what was out there. He might not have put so much on Dean. Maybe he would have waited a little longer until he put a gun in Dean's hand. Also with knowledge of a hunter network from the get-go, he would have had help right away, instead of stumbling about trying to figure out what happened by himself. With an infant and a traumatized child.

 

Could have, would have, should have. ;-)

I agree in a way. And again, I think it points to denial more than anything else. That's the explanation that makes sense based on Mary's past and her knowledge. She knew what was out there by being a hunter, so there wasn't a maybe it was all only a bad dream / fluke /couldn't be true anyway situation as an excuse. However, "ignore it and maybe it'll go away" to me is not a very responsible course of action.

 

 

True. I just think then they shouldn't have gone back in time twice and made her an actual character. I remember thinking. So Sam is ok hearing that his mother made a deal with YED? And he has no comment about that whatsoever? I found that incredible.

 

Objectively, with the exception of Dean, I really don't see why Sam should have any sentiments about family.

 

I don't think it is known for sure that Sam actually knows. He was not there in the past to see it happen, and we were never shown the entire conversation that Dean and Sam had concerning Dean's experiences in the past. We know that Dean didn't tell Sam about Azazel feeding Sam demon blood, because when Sam mentions that detail, Dean figures out Sam knew about it and is angry that Sam kept that secret (though in Sam's defense, he was kinda dead at the time, and afterwards it might have been an awkward conversation being that Dean sold his soul and everything). We know that Dean told Sam that his grandparents were murdered, but we can't be entirely sure what details he omitted. Considering he omitted the blood detail, he might have also omitted the deal detail as well, saying that the demon found out about Mary and came back - but not why. Sam mentions Mary being a hunter - so Dean told him that - but he doesn't mention Mary making a deal - just that everyone died, so that Azazel could dose him with the blood.

 

Given how Dean tried to protect Sam about the blood - and I wonder what exactly Dean did tell Sam instead since that was kind of an important detail to gloss over and/or fudge - I think it's very possible that Dean omitted the deal detail as well to either protect Sam's feelings or protect his (Dean's) mother's memory. Based on how Sam reacted in "The Song Remains the Same," my money is on that Dean omitted the deal detail too and that Sam doesn't know.

 

(Makes me wonder if Dean's recent story about New York that Sam seems to have such nostalgia for is also another "omit some details for Sammy's benefit" story.)

[SueB]

I think Mary still remembered the deal but presumed SHE'D pay the consequence, not her children. Usually these things are personal. And maybe she thought she could deal with it when YED came. It was pretty naive of her but I could see that.

[Demented Daisy]

To me, her one mistake was trusting Azazel:

YED
I'll tell you what, I'll arrange to have lover boy here brought back breathing.

 

MARY
My parents too?

 

YED
Nope, sorry doll, that's not on the table. But, think about it, you could be done with hunting forever. The white picket fence, station wagon, couple of kids, no more monsters or fear. I'll make sure of it.

 

MARY
What? And all it costs is my soul?

 

YED
Oh, no, you can keep your soul, I just need permission.

 

MARY
For what?

 

YED
Mmm, in ten years I need to swing by your house for a little something, that's all.

 

MARY
For what?!

 

YED
Relax. As long as I'm not interrupted, nobody gets hurt, I promise. (beat) Or you can spend the rest of your life, desperate and alone.

 

Again, everything we've been told is that demons have to adhere to the terms of the deal.  To my mind, she was trying to keep her family safe -- this was her guarantee that her children wouldn't be hunters.  No monsters, no demons, nothing would be after her or her family.

 

We know that it didn't work, we know what Azazel's real game was, but I'm not going to blame her for not having knowledge that I have.  Likewise, I'm not going to say, "Well, if she had just told John, he could have done this or he could have done that."  Because we don't know what he could have done and blaming her for it is completely unfair, IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

I think Mary has responsibly in making her deal the same as Dean does in taking on the Mark. In my opinion, she made an impetuous decision out of grief and didn't ask enough questions. But, I also believe if she had known Yellow Eyes wanted access in order to corrupt her son, I rather doubt she'd have made the deal in the first place. Do I think she should've known better considering she'd been raised to be a hunter? Sure. Do I think she's innocent and deserves sainthood? Not at all.  I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing her being more proactive and doing something to protect her family, but that doesn't mean she didn't do anything either, only that the show chose not to show it. But I'm not sure exactly what she could've done differently after sealing her deal that "destiny" wouldn't have unraveled either. Both demons and angels were actively making sure Sam and Dean ended up in the places they did, so I'm not sure anything she did could've made a difference in the end.

 

Personally, I hold both John and Mary equally at fault in the choices they made and for who their children became, but I also think they were just people who were trying to do the best they could in extreme situations.

 

On a different note, I always find it funny that Yellow Eyes made a deal with Mary somehow knowing she would have a six-month year-old kid in exactly 10 years. And he was making these deals all over the place. How'd he know there'd be an actual child in that exact timeframe when he made his deals? I know, I know, it's that silly Kripke person's way of making what came before line up, but still makes me shake my head none-the-less

[catrox14]

To me, her one mistake was trusting Azazel:

 

Again, everything we've been told is that demons have to adhere to the terms of the deal.

And I think her decision making was further manipulated by Azazel wearing her dad's meatsuit

[AwesomO4000]

On a different note, I always find it funny that Yellow Eyes made a deal with Mary somehow knowing she would have a six-month year-old kid in exactly 10 years. And he was making these deals all over the place. How'd he know there'd be an actual child in that exact timeframe when he made his deals? I know, I know, it's that silly Kripke person's way of making what came before line up, but still makes me shake my head none-the-less

 

I always assumed that he went around making lots and lots of deals - it seemed that's what he did because he was a very busy beaver - with the hopes that enough would pan out and qualify. Unless, like Lucifer (although Lucifer was technically an angel), Azazel had some knowledge of the future or at least some  knowledge of who potentially might have children during the time he needed them to. Now his making a deal with them might technically change the future - hence the "promises" he gave to Mary that Demented Daisy highlighted to potentially minimize his influence on changing the future ("Don't worry, nothing really bad will happen. You can entirely trust me... pay no attention to the demon here and go about your normal life"). Some may have panned out and some may not have based on his influence (i.e. some people might have been so traumatized or influenced by seeing a demon that it changed their life enough that the potential children no longer happened.)

 

But that's my theory - that Azazel used some sort ability (innate, spell, psychic on hire, magic, whatever) to be able to see the potential future for the people he considered, and if they "qualified" then he went ahead and made the deal in hopes that his influence wouldn't change the potential future, and then for those who did go ahead and have the predicted children at the right time, their kids became the psychic kids. For those where something unforeseen happened and they didn't have children, he just wrote those off. He didn't seem to be too totally invested in all of his special kid projects anyway - driving some of them crazy himself and/or letting them get killed off - so I'm thinking the deals weren't all that difficult that he minded taking the chance on some that wouldn't pan out.

 

He was already taking a huge chance by killing some of the mothers. For example, he had no way to know that once he killed Mary what John was going to do. It could have gone another way, and despite his demons keeping an eye on Sam, Azazel would've been out of luck if John, for example, decided to off Sam to keep him from going evil after he found out "the truth."

Edited December 19, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[rue721]

I'm also not so sure why she was so against hunting. Granted, it's a bith fishy overall, but her family life was just fine.

 

Aside from the constant danger, the thing that I think is wrong about it is that you're alienating your kids from normal society. That's just setting them up for a lifetime of grief, and it traps them in this one (harsh) kind of life. What about their own potential or happiness? Plus, if you're using them as part of the "business," you're exploiting them, too. Irl it reminds me of families I know where the parents couldn't/didn't work "straight" jobs and found other ways of getting by, and they basically led their kids by the nose into the same life, which then is pretty impossible for them to get out of. Some still end up doing OK (ime, that's most likely if they get into a good relationship with an SO who is part of "normal" society), but it's an extremely  shitty thing to do to your own children imo. Obviously hunting is supposed to be more noble than that but it still sucks in how it traps people at the fringes of society imo.

 

What I think is ironic is that John probably wouldn't have thought that much about that because he hadn't been raised that way, lol. I don't think he thought he had a choice about raising the kids as hunters in any case, but I also got the impression that he didn't worry about making regular life unreachable for his kids, since he made apparently zero effort to encourage them or even allow them to be people aside from being hunters.

 

ETA:

 

Objectively, with the exception of Dean, I really don't see why Sam should have any sentiments about family.

 

I don't think he does have any sentiments about family. Tbh, Sam doesn't seem to actually understand what family even is, he's always making weird mistakes about it. He didn't understand that when John kicked him out, it would only be for as long as he was unwilling to defer to John, he's referred to their family not being a real family (*to* Dean, which is the weirdest part), he somehow thought that the Campbell weirdos counted as family, he did that whole "we can be hunting partners but not brothers" thing when he was pissed at Dean in S9, etc. I don't actually understand why/how he doesn't get "family," he does have one, but he apparently doesn't!

Edited December 20, 2014 by rue721

[SueB]

 

John didn't get the same pass for me when he didn't come to see Dean when Dean was dying because John is Dean's father and there weren't any world-shaking reasons for not going to see Dean that we know of, mostly just John's need for revenge. I'd probably be more annoyed with Bobby's little "yay Bobby" bump if John wasn't already pretty well on the top of my shit list after his ditching of dying Dean. There really wasn't much that would make him look worse by that point.

From another thread...where we started to go back a great deal in history regarding John...

 

In My Little Worldview, I'll divide up my opinion on John's actions into three categories:

1) "Best He Could"

- Keeping the family together and on the road.  It's not a life most would choose these days but I can see him being worried about keeping the kids safe so...I can live with that choice.

- Teaching the boys how to be safe and recognize Supernatural danger. Not sure he had many other options.

 

2) Bad Dad

- Parentification of Dean

- Obsession over YED

- Rootless existence with zero stability. On the road is one thing, but packing up so often during the school year? Bad Dad.

- Shitting on Sam for going to College.  Telling Sam to never come back.

- Making Dean feel like he's never good enough (bitching about the state of the Impala)

- Treating them like soldiers vice sons

 

3) HORRIBLE person

- Keeping secrets until the end and then dumping "kill Sammy" potential on Dean

- Leaving Dean at Sonny's farm to teach him a lesson -- that was shitty beyond standard Bad Dad IMO

- Dean realizing his Dad is possessed because he paid Dean a compliment (plus...crapping on him over the Striga, whatever happened when Sam ran away)

- Not telling Sam what he knew before he died.  Sam deserved to know.

- Not coming when Dean was dying in Faith.

[catrox14]

Oh Gods. I totally forgot John didn't come to see Dean when he was dying. Jeebus. That right there is the literal worst thing John ever did. What an asshole. Short of John be g in a literal war, being held against his will or dead, there is no acceptable explanation for his absence. Well now I hate John all over again and yes this reinforces the text that John was not always there for Dean when he needed him. Ugh

[AwesomO4000]

3) HORRIBLE person

- Keeping secrets until the end and then dumping "kill Sammy" potential on Dean

- Leaving Dean at Sonny's farm to teach him a lesson -- that was shitty beyond standard Bad Dad IMO

- Dean realizing his Dad is possessed because he paid Dean a compliment (plus...crapping on him over the Striga, whatever happened when Sam ran away)

- Not telling Sam what he knew before he died.  Sam deserved to know.

- Not coming when Dean was dying in Faith.

 

Totally agree with you here, SueB. And to your great list I would also add:

 

- After making a half-assed plan where he got himself possessed, insisting that Sam kill him, and then telling Sam it was Sam's fault that Dean was dying when Sam didn't kill him.

 

and a subset to your:

"- Dean realizing his Dad is possessed because he paid Dean a compliment (plus...crapping on him over the Striga, whatever happened when Sam ran away)"

          * And Dean suspecting that John wasn't "Dad" because John would think Dean "wasted a bullet" while saving Sam via the Colt, meaning that Dean either thought that John would think saving Sam wasn't worth one of the Colt's bullets or that Dean thought John would think Dean should've instead risked his own life and/or further damage to Sam by trying to save Sam another, less immediate way than "wasting a bullet." Either thing would imply that John was a horrible person in my book if Dean would have a reason to even think either.

[catrox14]

For all the discussion we have about Dean being the parent to Sam, John also burdened the baby of the family ( i don't mean that in a derogatory way because I am also the baby and I am now the one caring for my mom 24/7 until she passes because well too many reasons that are kind of  winchestery in the dysfunction but with a lot less loyalty and sibling love) with trying to save Dean in Faith(thanks SueB for that reminder....I think) when John the father was able bodied to come and help. Fuck John for that.

 

And then again in My Time of Dying because he wouldn't help other than making a deal and he burdened Sam with having to deal with Dean's insurance shit while John was making a deal for Dean's soul. I give John only a little slack on this one because well he was also injured in the car wreck but he was strong enough to summon the YED. Ugh John Winchester you really were pretty terrible.

Edited January 10, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

 

And then again in My Time of Dying because he wouldn't help other than making a deal

What else was he supposed to do? Dean was essentially dead, resuscitated already once. John was shot in the leg and injured in the car crash. The truck actually crashed into his side of the car. I remember being surprised he was even awake.

 

Sam was the only one who was still able to walk around normally, albeit with a rather mangled face and hilariously terrible hair.

 

I see John as a guy who is partly dealing with PTSD for years and eventually with a death wish at the time we actually meet him. He was on the run for years. Normal life was over and dangerous, as far as someone in his situation would see it. Who knows how long it took until there was some help and support available. By then, it might have already been too late and he had become the distrusting paranoid ass we know and Bobby tells us about. Considering he'd already been in a war before he got married, there could have been PTSD symptoms all the way back from then.

 

No apologies for Faith, granted. I still don't understand that decision not to have him leave a message that he is on his way. Someone should ask the writers what they were thinking.

[catrox14]

I literally just said that I cut John a bit of slack on that one because he was injured. Even so,  Sammy called John out for sending him out to get the stuff to summon a demon IIRC and Sammy called him out for pushing the vengeance factor more than trying to be there for the boys in that terrible time. John managed to hobble is ass to the basement but couldn't hobble his ass to call about the insurance which was fraudulent anyway.  And couldn't hobble his ass to find a not deal way to save Dean. Even ethereal!Dean was calling his ass for not doing anything at first.

Edited January 10, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

For all the discussion we have about Dean being the parent to Sam, John also burdened the baby of the family ( i don't mean that in a derogatory way because I am also the baby and I am now the one caring for my mom 24/7 until she passes because well too many reasons that are kind of  winchestery in the dysfunction but with a lot less loyalty and sibling love) with trying to save Dean in Faith(thanks SueB for that reminder....I think) when John the father was able bodied to come and help. Fuck John for that.

 

Heh - I'm partially to blame here, since that's my quote in SueB's post above. In my defense, I was arguing why I didn't think that John deserved more of a pass than Bobby (because in the later seasons, I couldn't ever see Bobby not coming to the hospital if Dean was dying and Sam asked) and why the giving Bobby a bigger role in Sam and Dean's childhood didn't really change my opinion of John in retrospect, because my opinion of John was already pretty shitty and couldn't really get much worse.

 

And then again in My Time of Dying because he wouldn't help other than making a deal and he burdened Sam with having to deal with Dean's insurance shit while John was making a deal for Dean's soul. I give John only a little slack on this one because well he was also injured in the car wreck but he was strong enough to summon the YED. Ugh John Winchester you really were pretty terrible.

 

Don't forget - and I actually had more of a problem with this - that John also sent Sam (who had himself been in the car accident and not too long before that been beaten by the demon) to check on the Impala to make sure all the weapons were safe (of all things) AND made him complicit in John calling the demon to make the deal by having Sam go to Bobby to get the stuff to supposedly make a "protection" spell against the demon which turned out to actually be the stuff to summon it...

 

Or what you just said, because I was too slow.

 

And as I said above, I also don't forgive him for blaming Sam for Dean being in the hospital dying - geesh - lets make Sam feel even worse than the fact that his brother is dying by telling him that it's HIS fault for not killing his own father.

Edited January 10, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

Seriously.  Good lord.  John was just one messed up piece of work. The more I think about it, the more I only want John to come back to fucking really apologize to the boys for his fuckups. 

[rue721]

Oh Gods. I totally forgot John didn't come to see Dean when he was dying. Jeebus. That right there is the literal worst thing John ever did. What an asshole. Short of John be g in a literal war, being held against his will or dead, there is no acceptable explanation for his absence. Well now I hate John all over again and yes this reinforces the text that John was not always there for Dean when he needed him. Ugh

 

It's stuff like this where I'm like, well, he's a drinker, right?*** I mean, that's high-level flakiness right there, not listening to your voicemails about your kid dying and not showing up to his deathbed.

 

Tbh I just let it go because obviously John was undependable. What are you going to do, that's just how he was, apparently -- could *not* be counted on. (*cough* drinker *cough*). That's difficult to deal with, but still deal-able imo. But yeah, this is why when they try to stress how dependable he was, I'm nonplussed. There are other good things about him! But not that, ffs.

 

The simplest/easiest explanation imo is that he just was either MIA because he was "busy" (aka, drinking, etc) and didn't get the voicemail in time to respond in the first place, or that he got the voicemail but didn't have the stomach to follow up without liquid courage, and that kept him so "busy" that time got away from him. But that's a fanwank, and it's really shitty to be his kid (either kid) in that scenario in any case.

 

***Do they do this on purpose? I mean, is that supposed to be canon? I had more or less figured so, but they keep things so squeaky clean that it gets confusing. Not that I need tons of realism -- not at ALL -- but I genuinely can't tell if that's what they're trying to hint at or not. Like how Bobby was also ostensibly "the town drunk" (of Sioux Falls?) but didn't act like that was the case at all and nobody even had to treat him like it was? Idk, I genuinely can't quite get my head around it.

[7kstar]

Someone else came up with this, but I can't remember where I read it, but in some ways it makes sense in a weird way.

 

Why did John show up in Home but not Faith.

 

When Sam calls he isn't broken.  He's upset and he is letting his father know what is up, but he is determined to fix it.  They argued since Sam felt he could find a solution John felt he could stay away.  Good idea of course not.

 

However when Dean calls, he is loosing it, and letting his Dad know he can't deal with it.  He isn't in a place of I can deal with it but asking for help.  John shows up but doesn't let the boys know he looking after them.

 

I think the writers messed up really because they felt the more they made mention of John the more it became about finding John and not about two brothers hunting things and saving lives. 

 

I guess my main thing is seeing the growth in John in My Time of Dying.  Do I think he was a great Dad, NO.  But I think he was messed up and really felt his only way to get the Demon and save the boys was to make sure he kept the Demon off their trail.  We also get the one ep where the Demons use Sam & Dean as bait.  So he has reasons to believe that he could harm his sons by being with them.  He knows that the Demons know his only weakness is his sons.  He's in a rock and hard place and he doesn't trust anyone. 

 

Also I wonder if he feels as if anyone that helps him, he is poison and the only real solution is to be alone.  He has a mission to do and only the mission counts.  This is a mindset of the military and is shown on TV shows all the time. 

 

Plus messed up people have warped thinking and I think John did love his boys but then again did he even know what love looked like other than Mary?

 

To me this is what makes the show so interesting.  The characters are so complex and as much as I really get upset with some of the things John did, I also love to hate him.  I wish that Dean could get some closure with his Dad...he really needs it, especially now.

 

By the way I'm the middle child and the one that was responsible for two younger siblings.  So I can relate to Dean and sometimes Sam.  Our family life is very dramatic...it makes movies look normal...but I have found that my relationship with my mother has healed in many ways.  But even as a young child I knew that she didn't know better, she did the best she could and had been given really bad role models on some things and good ones on others.  Sometimes the mixed messages really created a mess.  So to some extent I see Dean being the smart one that can read his dad.  Does that mean that he forgives him for everything, no but maybe it allows him to accept him better than Sam.  Now that he is older he is less accepting of some things because he has taken some blinders off...if that makes any sense.  JMV.

Edited January 10, 2015 by 7kstar

[catrox14]

I don't recall any implication that John was a heaving drinker/alcoholic. There was wreath made of beer cans but that didn't seem to be a usual thing. IMO John's problem was obsession with the YED and IMO that is what he was busy doing that made it so he couldn't show up for Dean in Faith. He was an obsessed bastard who was never there for them. And just thinking more, Dean screamed at Dream!Dean that John was never there for Sam and that John is why Mom died, because he couldn't protect his family. And then demon!Dean said Sammy is the reason their Mom died whilst still saying that John brainwashed them. Damn, I wish they hadn't cut off demon!Dean. How amazing would it be to see demon!Dean face off with John!?

 

And IMO if Bobby was supposed to be foster!Bobby that seems like one time Sam would have called him if John wouldn't come. Yes Bobby was not a part of the show yet, but when you are going to do a massive retcon about Bobby's role in the boys life...you might want to go back and remember when Bobby wasn't there....

[supposebly]

 

I don't recall any implication that John was a heaving drinker/alcoholic.

There was some indication in the pilot. So, he's working over time on a Miller Time shift. I assume Miller Time is a beer?

 

Although, it might have been just to cover up in front of Jess.

 

But then they all drink a lot. In real life, I would consider at least Dean an alcoholic. And Bobby of course.

Edited January 10, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

I think Bobby and Dean were/are functional alcoholis and Sam is a binge alcoholic. I could see that John would drink but I don't think that is why he didn't show up for the boys. I think that is all about his obsession with the YED.  I need some explanation, John Winchester, you dick.

 

Also, supposebly, my reply to you earlier was snarkier than I intended. Apologies

Edited January 10, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

No need to apologize. I might have gotten a bit "passionate" about this one too.

 

Another mention about drinking in Nightmare at the end:

 

Sam: We're lucky we had dad.

Dean: I never thought I'd hear you say that.

Sam: Well, it could have gone a whole other way after mom. A little more tequila, a little less demon hunting and we would have had Max's childhood. All things considered, we turned out ok. Thanks to him.

Dean: All things considered.

 

So, I would think drinking wasn't John's problem.

Edited January 10, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

To me that quote from Nightmare, suggests that if John had drank a lot more and never hunted they would have been like Max's family but instead of alcohol or drugs for John it was hunting.

[supposebly]

Pretty much, that's how it comes across for me too.

 

I think the drinking is just part of the whole blue collar thing of the show.

 

This is how MEN deal with problems. They drink.

 

I actually liked how they addressed the issue in Nightmare. There is more than just a supernatural nightmare out there. Sometimes it's one's own parents.

[rue721]

I don't recall any implication that John was a heaving drinker/alcoholic. There was wreath made of beer cans but that didn't seem to be a usual thing. IMO John's problem was obsession with the YED and IMO that is what he was busy doing that made it so he couldn't show up for Dean in Faith. He was an obsessed bastard who was never there for them.

 

Yeah, the wreath of beer cans is just silly/funny imo. I honestly don't know if I'm wrong-headed for thinking of it this way -- since the show is so odd about how it portrays drinking in particular (imo), in that it's always bringing it up but never showing its effects really (and I don't mean that it should show its effects in a PSA kind of way, I mean even in a really basic "so-and-so is kind of buzzed but not drunk" or "so-and-so drinks habitually" etc, kind of way -- in a more subtle or realistic kind of way), I think it's hard to tell if the show is trying to drop hints or if the writers just aren't conscious of the same connotations as I am or what.

 

Anyway, what made me think John had a drinking problem (well, aside from the guys flat out referring to his drinking from the pilot on, but that's pretty ordinary, I guess):  his extreme flakiness (including stuff like how he just dipped out on the family in that Dark Side of the Moon memory, etc), how he was always losing friends or estranging himself from people, how his mood seemed like it could turn on a dime, how he was obviously smart but was also reckless and sloppy, etc.

 

Also, just how Sam and Dean act makes me think it's the case. (ETA:  these are all the things that make it seem to me like they're used to dealing with a drunk person, anyway). This could also be wrong-headed, though, and I'm open to be corrected! But the things that stand out to me:  how they tend to assume that any given grown person can't be trusted to take care of him/herself and that it's their job to protect them or just figure things out for them. Or how they assume that the buck is going to have to stop with them -- they seem like they assume that if they can't fix something, nobody else will, and everyone will just be screwed. Or how they have this weak grasp on how much intimacy is a "normal" amount, they're either completely isolated or just unashamedly up in each others' business/bodies/habits.

 

This is Dean especially, though in some ways Sam, too:  how they're fairly good at managing other people, and staying upbeat when someone's being difficult, but tend to default to "numb" or "violent!" etc when it comes to their own emotions and have basically no idea how to express themselves. They'll even *try* to either go numb (i.e., drink and/or bullshit) or violent (i.e., go hunting or (ugh) fight each other) when they're having ~feelings~. It seems to me a lot of the time that they don't even what they actually want or how they're feeling anyway even though they're good at reading other people. Or how there's that gap between what they say about John or their family or even themselves and what the truth is, and that, when the chips are down, they're most loyal to the "cover story" anyway. They even tend to be in lots of disagreement over what the truth beneath that cover story is in the first place (if they mention or refer to it at all).

 

Speaking of Dean especially being prone to "sticking with the story" -- I don't actually think he keeps a lot from Sam per se, I think he just says or does what he's "supposed" to and doesn't really know how to stray from that. He's gotten better at that over time imo, but is still pretty bad. What makes me think that he's not just holding back, he literally doesn't know what else to do/say aside from giving lipservice to the cover story, is that, when he's really pushed and he tries to drop a truth bomb, his supposed truth bomb usually something really obvious and basic, as though even publicly acknowledging that he or Sam have feelings is this big call out. He'll confess to screwing up over confessing to having even a really ordinary feeling basically every time. Like in Hunted, I actually thought it was sad that the big truth bomb that he finally dropped on Sam when Sam kept pressing him to talk about John's death and asking whether Dean was OK, was that Sam actually wanted to talk about his own feelings about John's death and that Sam himself didn't feel OK. Of course Sam was upset (and by the end of the episode went on a teary-eyed rant about it), he'd just been orphaned -- why would that be a thing? Or how it was this huge deal when Dean finally told Lisa that he knew he was being frightening by making her and Ben move and by trying to keep them from leaving the house, etc, and that he was scared himself. I think Lisa kind of realized Dean was scared when he made them *flee their home* but you know. Not to go off on a tangent!

 

Obviously YMMV, even I don't think "John had a drinking problem" is the *only* interpretation for that kind of thing (maybe John just *was* flaky and difficult, all on his own! lol), or that those are ways they'd *have* to act regardless. It's more that it seemed like the show was saying pretty much outright that John did have a drinking problem, and lots of times when I see how the guys are acting, I think, "yup."

 

The thing of them both, and especially Dean, trying so hard to stick with the "cover story" is also what makes A Very Supernatural Christmas so touching to me. First, Sam uses John's journal to make Dean confess/acknowledge that it's not true that monsters don't exist. Then, the ridiculous stolen presents make Dean confess/acknowledge that it's not true that John is a hero. So at that point, there's no bluffing anymore and they have to be real. And Sam tells Dean that for real, he loves him, and gives him that necklace. I'm a total sap, so that just kills me. They aren't/can't be real like that the vaaaaast majority of the time, so I liked seeing that symbol that *for real,* not as part of any act, they love each other. And I got that after seeing Sam's unambiguously real memories in Dark Side of the Moon, which "pointedly" (in Dean's POV, anyway) didn't include him, Dean felt like maybe Sam's love for him *was* just an act and dumped the necklace -- but that killed me, too, because he was wrong! Well anyway, not to beat yet another dead horse.

 

And not to go off on yet another tangent. I do think that it's obvious that John is undependable in any case, which is ultimately the important thing.

 

And just thinking more, Dean screamed at Dream!Dean that John was never there for Sam and that John is why Mom died, because he couldn't protect his family. And then demon!Dean said Sammy is the reason their Mom died whilst still saying that John brainwashed them. Damn, I wish they hadn't cut off demon!Dean. How amazing would it be to see demon!Dean face off with John!?

 

I agree *absolutely,* this is my #1 wish in terms of storylines for demon!Dean, I've been just aching to see that showdown since they brought up the idea of Dean being a demon in the first place.

Edited January 10, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

Yeah, I can't believe I never thought about that until now. I've been thinking John might be the answer to Dean's MoC problem but for some reason it never occurred to me until now the "what if John was brought back to actually HUNT Dean".  Oh man....that would have been...wow....just wow.

 

Edited January 10, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

 

And then demon!Dean said Sammy is the reason their Mom died whilst still saying that John brainwashed them.

Well, he was wrong, Mary died because she made a deal with YED. I never understood that statement.

 

 

Dean screamed at Dream!Dean that John was never there for Sam and that John is why Mom died, because he couldn't protect his family

I think these are all Dean's issues and really, how could John have protected them?

 

I don't see John as unreliable, he kept them alive all this time, didn't he? He might be a terrible father but I don't recall either Sam or Dean talk about John as being unreliable. He's always talked about as incredibly stubborn. To me, that doesn't translate into flaky and unreliable.

 

Again, I think the drinking on the show is mostly an aesthetic choice. It's part of the blue collar sensitivity of the show, nothing more than to showcast when things go really wrong because these are manly MEN who drink before they talk about their feelings.

 

Otherwise, at least Dean's liver would be pickled by now.

[catrox14]

Well, he was wrong, Mary died because she made a deal with YED. I never understood that statement.

 

Just showing the parallel to demon!Dean's mind fuckery with Sam and Dean's viewpoint to Dream!Dean. Mary had her own culpability Sammy being blamed for Mary dying is going right to Sam's insecurities. It's the demon way!

 

I can see where Dean would possibly have some latent issues with John shoving Sammy into Dean's 4 year old arms and telling him to protect his brother and then not being able to save Mary and essentially leaving Dean to raise Sam (I refuse to believe the Bobby retcons sorry!) while he sought vengeance  and then didn't come when Dean nearly in Faith, I can see where Dream! Dean was telling HIS truth about because Dean really was the one protecting Sammy most of the time even as a child.

Edited January 10, 2015 by catrox14