S2.E03: Defiance

[Quilt Fairy]

Quote

Rebels in the North demand Cromwell's head and a return to the old Catholic ways; Cromwell withdraws from court and receives unexpected news from across the sea. 

US airdate: April 6, 2025

[DanaK]

Cromwell certainly attracts the ladies. His poor son has to put up with his wife having the hots for his dad and not him. And it appears he has a French daughter

[DanaK]

I’m confused by the actress playing Elizabeth I think who married Cromwell’s son Gregory and I think was Jane Seymour’s sister She appears to be portrayed by a Black actress when it appears historically Elizabeth was White. Am I just confused?

[Notabug]

17 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I’m confused by the actress playing Elizabeth I think who married Cromwell’s son Gregory and I think was Jane Seymour’s sister She appears to be portrayed by a Black actress when it appears historically Elizabeth was White. Am I just confused?

Yes, Elizabeth Seymour is Jane's sister and was caucasian.  I think the actress was hired for her ability and not her resemblance to the actual Elizabeth Seymour, since I think most of us don't know what she looked like anyway.

[sugarbaker design]

Cromwell's not changing, but Henry's opinion of him sure is. Cromwell started out as the guy who always told the truth and is now the guy who always has bad news.

6 hours ago, DanaK said:

I’m confused by the actress playing Elizabeth I think who married Cromwell’s son Gregory and I think was Jane Seymour’s sister She appears to be portrayed by a Black actress when it appears historically Elizabeth was White. Am I just confused?

Colorblind casting has been commonplace since Hamilton opened on Broadway in 2015. Jodie Turner-Smith played the title role of Anne Boleyn in an English miniseries in 2021.

I've always found it helpful to remember that this is a work of fiction based on a work of fiction. While I have no problem believing a marriage was brokered between Gregory Cromwell and Elizabeth Seymour, I highly doubt that Thomas Cromwell and John Seymour neglected to tell Miss Elizabeth exactly which Cromwell she was to marry.

[Notabug]

1 minute ago, sugarbaker design said:

 

I've always found it helpful to remember that this is a work of fiction based on a work of fiction. While I have no problem believing a marriage was brokered between Gregory Cromwell and Elizabeth Seymour, I highly doubt that Thomas Cromwell and John Seymour neglected to tell Miss Elizabeth exactly which Cromwell she was to marry.

I don't think there is any historical evidence that Elizabeth misunderstood which Cromwell she was to marry.  There are some letters to Thomas Cromwell from her after she became his DIL and it is obvious that they have a close relationship and she liked him very much; but no hint of romantic-type love between them.

There is also no evidence that Cromwell was interested in Jane Seymour and stepped aside when he realized the king wanted her.

These are fictional embellishments meant to add to the drama.

[Quilt Fairy]

9 hours ago, DanaK said:

I’m confused by the actress playing Elizabeth I think who married Cromwell’s son Gregory and I think was Jane Seymour’s sister She appears to be portrayed by a Black actress when it appears historically Elizabeth was White. Am I just confused?

As others have mentioned, they are using colorblind casting, which was not done in the first series. So look carefully and you'll see not just Elizabeth Seymour but also Wolsey's daughter, one of the King's Privy Council, and a smattering of courtiers are PoC.  I personally find it hard to get used to in a historical drama but it is what it is. 

[DanaK]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

As others have mentioned, they are using colorblind casting, which was not done in the first series. So look carefully and you'll see not just Elizabeth Seymour but also Wolsey's daughter, one of the King's Privy Council, and a smattering of courtiers are PoC.  I personally find it hard to get used to in a historical drama but it is what it is. 

But of course the leads are White. I mean, I get there were people of color likely in England at the time and probably serving in the various courts of Kings and Queens, but changing the race of various historical characters in a serious historical TV drama seems odd to me. I get the Anne Boleyn series has a Black actress as Anne because they were apparently doing it through a feminist lens and just wanted the best person for the role regardless of race

On another subject, the bit about the king’s wife (Jane Seymour I think) beseeching him in front of others to listen to people’s concerns I think seemed a little odd to me. Why wouldn’t she talk to him in private about that? If she was the queen, why would she need to kneel to him and beseech him to listen to her request? Whether or not she really did that, why was it done that way? In front of the various court people seemed a little dangerous. Does the source novel indicate why she was doing that?

Edited April 8 by DanaK

[sugarbaker design]

22 minutes ago, DanaK said:

If she was the queen, why would she need to kneel to him and beseech him to listen to her request? 

Simply put, because he's the King and she's the Queen consort. 

25 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Whether or not she really did that, why was it done that way? In front of the various court people seemed a little dangerous. Does the source novel indicate why she was doing that?

I read TM&TL several years ago when it first came out, and for the life of me I can't remember.

[Notabug]

10 hours ago, DanaK said:

But of course the leads are White. I mean, I get there were people of color likely in England at the time and probably serving in the various courts of Kings and Queens, but changing the race of various historical characters in a serious historical TV drama seems odd to me. I get the Anne Boleyn series has a Black actress as Anne because they were apparently doing it through a feminist lens and just wanted the best person for the role regardless of race

On another subject, the bit about the king’s wife (Jane Seymour I think) beseeching him in front of others to listen to people’s concerns I think seemed a little odd to me. Why wouldn’t she talk to him in private about that? If she was the queen, why would she need to kneel to him and beseech him to listen to her request? Whether or not she really did that, why was it done that way? In front of the various court people seemed a little dangerous. Does the source novel indicate why she was doing that?

I think the scene with the King and Jane Seymour was fictionalized, I doubt there is an historical record of the conversation.  As for whether she'd speak in front of courtiers, the King and Queen were virtually always surrounded by others, except in the marriage bed.  They sort of became part of the furniture to them, I think.

The main danger to Jane Seymour was Henry, not other members of the court.  As long as he was ok with listening to her concerns; I don't think it would much matter if anyone else knew what she said.  Kneeling before the King with a request was SOP in those days.  Jane had seen how Henry's first two wives were treated once they fell out of favor; no way she'd risk his wrath by behaving as though she was his equal.  As noted above, the King is above the Queen Consort in all things; she is not his equal.  Henry would've been irate had he ever thought she believed she was.  That was one of Anne Boleyn's flaws; she thought Henry would do what she wanted forever because he had professed his love.  She never thought he'd treat her the way he did Catherine of Aragon.  She was mistaken, of course and he treated her worse.

Edited April 8 by Notabug

[jschoolgirl]

There were black people at court in Tudor England.

[MamaMax]

14 hours ago, DanaK said:

 

On another subject, the bit about the king’s wife (Jane Seymour I think) beseeching him in front of others to listen to people’s concerns I think seemed a little odd to me. Why wouldn’t she talk to him in private about that? If she was the queen, why would she need to kneel to him and beseech him to listen to her request? Whether or not she really did that, why was it done that way? In front of the various court people seemed a little dangerous. Does the source novel indicate why she was doing that?

My thought was that she was thinking that having witnesses would make it harder for HVIII to say no.  Like asking your mom if you friend can stay for dinner with them standing right there. 

Edited April 8 by MamaMax

[Haleth]

On 4/7/2025 at 11:15 PM, DanaK said:

On another subject, the bit about the king’s wife (Jane Seymour I think) beseeching him in front of others to listen to people’s concerns I think seemed a little odd to me. Why wouldn’t she talk to him in private about that? If she was the queen, why would she need to kneel to him and beseech him to listen to her request?

Plus in a previous scene she confessed that Henry was angry at her for not being pregnant yet. Approaching him humbly would make him more amenable to any request from her. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 4/7/2025 at 11:15 PM, DanaK said:

On another subject, the bit about the king’s wife (Jane Seymour I think) beseeching him in front of others to listen to people’s concerns I think seemed a little odd to me. Why wouldn’t she talk to him in private about that?

 

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

Plus in a previous scene she confessed that Henry was angry at her for not being pregnant yet. Approaching him humbly would make him more amenable to any request from her. 

And yet, while beseeching him, she continued to argue with him! 
 

Odd thing-I thought I could only watch weekly, but through PBS PASSPORT , I watched the rest of the episodes! 4 and 5 bored me out of my gourd, but the finale had me on the edge of my seat until the end!

[Quilt Fairy]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Odd thing-I thought I could only watch weekly, but through PBS PASSPORT , I watched the rest of the episodes! 4 and 5 bored me out of my gourd, but the finale had me on the edge of my seat until the end!

No spoilers please!  I've only been doing the threads weekly as the info comes available. 

BTW, I'm pretty sure you can also watch all of Call the Midwife on Passport. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

No spoilers please!  I've only been doing the threads weekly as the info comes available. 

Understood! I tried being vague as possible. I'll wait until each of the remaining topics are posted.

 

[Notabug]

8 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

No spoilers please!  I've only been doing the threads weekly as the info comes available. 

BTW, I'm pretty sure you can also watch all of Call the Midwife on Passport. 

Yes, you can binge this season of CTM, too, if you have Passport which requires a donation of $60 to PBS, $5 a month for a year.

I've finished this series and my only comment is that Mark Rylance is one of the finest actors I've ever seen.  He brings Cromwell to life and I am so glad he did this series.

Edited April 10 by Notabug

[Quilt Fairy]

BTW, when I said no spoilers, I didn't mean to imply that I don't know how the show ends.

[sugarbaker design]

31 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

BTW, when I said no spoilers, I didn't mean to imply that I don't know how the show ends.

I certainly knew that you were concerned about other people getting spoiled, not yourself.

It seems many posters are fans of Tudor historical drama, and its many iterations. While they know what happens, these posters, including me, probably can't wait to see how it's dramatized.

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

probably can't wait to see how it's dramatized

At this point it seems to be "Tom Crumb - Lookin' for love in all the wrong places."