What Makes Paradise Work?

[Js Nana]

General discussion of what keeps the Paradise going.

[Js Nana]

1. I wondered how all those 25,000 people could breathe underground, but then I figured it was like being on the International Space Station, where electricity is run through water to split the one oxygen atom from the two hydrogen atoms, assuming that there is an underground water supply for this.

2. I wondered how could all the billionaires still be billionaires, wouldn't their assets have been destroyed in the planet-wide environmental catastrophe - and then it occurred to me that the purpose of Paradise was to replicate the lives they'd lived above ground, with mansions and servants and everything, even though they're as assetless as all the other 25,000 inhabitants of Paradise, and, of course, they have to be the government to keep the whole thing going.

3. It also occurred to me that the psychological testing that was done was to determine who would be psychologically predisposed to want to replicate the society they'd left behind above ground.

 

[circumvent]

5 hours ago, Js Nana said:

1. I wondered how all those 25,000 people could breathe underground, but then I figured it was like being on the International Space Station, where electricity is run through water to split the one oxygen atom from the two hydrogen atoms, assuming that there is an underground water supply for this.

2. I wondered how could all the billionaires still be billionaires, wouldn't their assets have been destroyed in the planet-wide environmental catastrophe - and then it occurred to me that the purpose of Paradise was to replicate the lives they'd lived above ground, with mansions and servants and everything, even though they're as assetless as all the other 25,000 inhabitants of Paradise, and, of course, they have to be the government to keep the whole thing going.

3. It also occurred to me that the psychological testing that was done was to determine who would be psychologically predisposed to want to replicate the society they'd left behind above ground.

 

Points 2 and 3 pose a problem though.

Billionaires are already building bunkers and hiring security (many former Navy SEALS) but are also freaking out about this very reality that their money is nothing in a bunker where survival is supposedly the goal, so there is work to be done. Without specific skills other than reproduce money in the current system, most know nothing. They might think that they would just sit and wait for the planet to heal and then they can emerge still billionaires but that's ridiculous

In the impossible Paradise situation, the fact that they would be the government because of the psychological screening of the people living there leads us to believe that they did find, in a short period of time, 25 thousand people who are not only necessary for the maintenance and continuation of the human race, they also had to be predisposed to be compliant no matter what, something that is impossible to know

[marinw]

1 hour ago, circumvent said:

are already building bunkers and hiring security (many former Navy SEALS)

You are going to have to treat your SEALS very well or they will take over.

[marinw]

Another reason why Morgan Freeman is the best fictional President Ever: In Deep Impact, he selected the engineers and scientists, but also artists and writers. He also randomly chose a bunch of people based on Social Security Numbers to keep things balanced. In the case of Paradise, it looks like the spouses and children of those selected for their skills are the random elements.

Edited March 6 by marinw

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, marinw said:

You are going to have to treat your SEALS very well or they will take over.

Right? that's the main reason they are freaking out. The person they hired for a conference on bunker building and how to plan for the event, safety and all told them that their money is worth nothing after they close the bunker's door and the people with the most skills, strength or whatever turn out to be what is needed at the time will easily control everything. They went bananas

[marinw]

On 3/6/2025 at 11:31 AM, circumvent said:

Right? that's the main reason they are freaking out.

It seemed weird that a community of 25,000 would need that many security people. Even if everyone was carefully selected, Sinatra has serious trust issues. Are the agents supposed to protect Paradise from the Outside, or just the President and Sinatra from those inside?

Edited March 7 by marinw

[Js Nana]

12 hours ago, circumvent said:

this very reality that their money is nothing in a bunker

Billionaires don't rely on cash on hand to make them billionaires, they rely on loans to invest in assets, such as purchasing, or investing in, companies, etc., to finance their wealth - although I'm sure I'm wrong about this, I do often think of the wealth of billionaires as being like a house of cards should all the financial institutions that made the loans call them in. 

[circumvent]

10 hours ago, Js Nana said:

Billionaires don't rely on cash on hand to make them billionaires, they rely on loans to invest in assets, such as purchasing, or investing in, companies, etc., to finance their wealth - although I'm sure I'm wrong about this, I do often think of the wealth of billionaires as being like a house of cards should all the financial institutions that made the loans call them in. 

you are right that money is not a real thing, it is more an idea. The point of the remark that person gave to them is that they are not "special" in a bunker as they believe, and are treated as, up here.

[topanga]

On 3/6/2025 at 10:44 AM, marinw said:

It seemed weird that a community of 25,000 would need that many security people. Even if everyone was carefully selected, Sinatra has serious trust issues. Were the agent supposed to protect Paradise from the Outside, or just the President and Sinatra from those inside?

On 3/6/2025 at 5:01 AM, circumvent said:

In the impossible Paradise situation, the fact that they would be the government because of the psychological screening of the people living there leads us to believe that they did find, in a short period of time, 25 thousand people who are not only necessary for the maintenance and continuation of the human race, they also had to be predisposed to be compliant no matter what, something that is impossible to know

I guess it's natural to think about your own profession in a setting like this. Did anyone ever go to a doctor or a hospital? Even with 25,000 carefully selected people, there must be people with chronic health conditions. Or people who get the flu, the risk for allergic reactions, the need for cancer screening, etc. 

On 3/5/2025 at 11:31 PM, Js Nana said:

1. I wondered how all those 25,000 people could breathe underground, but then I figured it was like being on the International Space Station, where electricity is run through water to split the one oxygen atom from the two hydrogen atoms, assuming that there is an underground water supply for this.

There must be something like this. When the city was "down" while the system rebooted, the announcement told people to go home in order to save oxygen. 

[chaifan]

I posted a whole bunch of questions in the Ep 7 thread, and someone suggested I move them here.  Here goes:

1.  Paradise was originally planned for 25,000, but how many people are actually down there?  We know they're missing at least one plane load of Congress members, justices and presumably their families.  But how many other people weren't able to get in the air on time with such little notice?  Apparently everyone thought they'd have 10 days or so notice.  I think it would be interesting to find out that they lost a good % of the people, maybe up to half of who is supposed to be there.  And of the people who are there, a good amount would be people who are there to make it run, who were there setting up the place.  (Most likely their families didn't make it, though.)  The entry way/hangar has only a few planes, but a lot of space.  Does that signify most of the planes that didn't make it?  

1a.  How did Billy and Jane get there with so little notice?  Were they already embedded in the secret service before the disaster?  Or were they already in Paradise?  

2.  How does everyone have a full personalized wardrobe, able to last a lifetime?  If no one had notice, they only came with what they had at the time.  I can see Paradise having planned out stocked warehouses of clothing, school uniforms, things like that.  We know the liquor had arrived (2 football fields worth).  But all those suits for X and the other secret service agents?  Really nice suits and business clothes for Sinatra and the board?  It seems like only a handful of people really knew what "Versailles" was about.  So Cal, Sinatra, Gabriella and maybe a few others would have shipped stuff down in advance.  But everyone else?  Did someone else stock their closets for them, or are they now using resources that were meant to be replacements or for future generations.  (And now I realize why so many sci-fi shows centered around new world building have everyone wearing the same outfit - standard uniforms are easier from a resource standpoint.)

3.  How were they able to get all that artwork if no one else in the world knew this was coming?  Yes, we saw them taking some pictures off the walls in the White House, but so much of what we've seen would have been in museums around the world.  Either the White House came up with some ruse (loan those to us for an upcoming special exhibit at the Smithsonian) or they're all fakes.

4.  How ready was Paradise?  Was it at 100%, just waiting for the volcano to erupt?  Or were they still working on things?  Is this the first construction project ever to be finished ahead of time?

[marinw]

I think the fact that Paradise is so  extravagant with the big houses and cars is the point. They COULD have included more people if they went with apartment buildings and fewer cars, but that's not what they wanted. We get the impression that three years in the place is a little underpopulated, so everyone has what they want (except for Wii consoles) at least for now. We need to jump ahead a few years. 

My prediction for next season: It will take X years to find Teri, when they return they will notice things are different. Jeremy will take over from Harry (peacefully or not). Presley will be the First Lady, but she won't call herself that.

As for what makes the community "Work" there is going to have be be zero toleration for refusing vaccines. Both for the known things like measles and covid, and also for any new things that are going to occur in a closed system. Also, if you bring new people in, the kids will have no immunity. One of the many reasons the ban on pets is stupid, among the mental health benefits of pets they also help children develop an immune system.

Edited March 7 by marinw

[Js Nana]

On 3/7/2025 at 2:47 PM, chaifan said:

We know they're missing at least one plane load of Congress members, justices and presumably their families.

That reminds me, when the plane carrying the legislative and judicial branches of the government crashed, leaving it to the executive branch to run things, and if there's anything a billionaire loves, it's executive power - so I did wonder if Sinatra had had that plane rigged with a pressure censor operated bomb that would explode when the pressure wave hit.

[Js Nana]

On 3/7/2025 at 2:47 PM, chaifan said:

posted a whole bunch of questions in the Ep 7 thread, and someone suggested I move them here.

My answer for questions 1, 1a, 3 and 4, chaifan, is that Sinatra, and the other billionaires, knew that there wouldn't be anything like a 10-day warning of the super-volcano eruption and the mega-tsunami it would cause, so they had Paradise all set-up and ready to go, artwork included - and I think that there were more than 25,000 people flying on planes to the bunker, but Sinatra strategically set it up so that only the planes carrying the 25,000 she had selected would make it through.

[Anela]

I’ve just seen this on threads: https://www.threads.net/@designmom/post/DG_YrvWo3n_?xmt=AQGz8qD8OPGa-Pqk3ODtSwVE0SHGeKssLtpZARvM-Hx0hA

I don’t know if she’s seen the show.

[Paloma]

5 hours ago, Anela said:

I’ve just seen this on threads: https://www.threads.net/@designmom/post/DG_YrvWo3n_?xmt=AQGz8qD8OPGa-Pqk3ODtSwVE0SHGeKssLtpZARvM-Hx0hA

I don’t know if she’s seen the show.

She makes great points, and it certainly seems like she's seen the show--but if not, somebody should tell her about it.

[chaifan]

@Js Nana  I don't really want to delve too much into character motivation on this thread, as it's supposed to be more about the building/sustaining of the city itself, but...  I don't share your opinion on Sinatra.  I think the scientists were loyal to the White House, not Sinatra, and I can't see them providing "billionaires" advance notice while they're hanging around the White House with just hours to escape.  Sinatra built in a few "safety protocols" (Billy & Jane) into Paradise, but we've seen nothing to the level of her rigging airplanes to go down.  If she wanted all the power, she could have also blown up AF1 and declared herself Queen of Paradise.  So your theory doesn't track for me.  Sinatra has done bad things, but everything we've seen her do has been to secure the safety of Paradise as a whole.  Yes, that means her safety, too, but I think she sees the bigger picture.

Also, this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine, I've commented on it several times in the episode threads, but all this talk about Paradise being a city full of billionaires is complete speculation.  We've seen nothing to support it in the show.  Everyone's assuming the board room is all billionaires, but in fact, other than a few of the scientists and the VP, no one in that room has been identified at all.  If Sinatra is as power hungry as some people seem to believe, I'd think she'd purposely exclude other billionaires, to cut out the competition.  

I could be wrong about all this, but I'm just going by what the show has shown us so far.  

On 3/7/2025 at 4:45 PM, marinw said:

I think the fact that Paradise is so  extravagant with the big houses and cars is the point. They COULD have included more people if they went with apartment buildings and fewer cars, but that's not what they wanted.

The purpose of Paradise wasn't to save as many people as possible.  It was to make sure the human race didn't go extinct.  So I'm assuming that 25,000 was a number they chose to ensure survival of the species in 100 years, and the top number was dictated by resources.  (What could be brought in, what can be grown there, etc.)  Yes, they could physically fit more people in that space, but could they be provided for while trying to maintain a "normal" society?  Gabriella has talked about the psychology of what they did to make this all seem "normal", and overcrowding would have a psychological impact.  

And I totally agree that they should have pets in there of some sort.  If not allowing individual pets, then a community animal shelter that people can visit.

 

[Js Nana]

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

I think the scientists were loyal to the White House, not Sinatra

In a flashback in Episode 2 ("Sinatra"), Samantha (code name: "Sinatra") Redmond brings a team of brilliant people to a secret excavation inside a mountain and asks them to build her a city.  She paid for the creation of Paradise from beginning to end, so she most definitely owns it.  Her motivation for creating Paradise is a need to feel that she has control over the health and safety of her daughter following the death of her son and knowledge that there was a planet destroying event in the works spurred her to want to create a safe haven for her family, a haven that she would control by proxy, first through President Cal Bradford and now through the supremely controllable Vice President, Henry Baines, although Henry is seen taking control of the ruling council after "Sinatra" becomes incapacitated in Episode 8 - - has the worm turned - - is Henry Baines destined to be the new villain in Season 2? 

[Js Nana]

6 hours ago, chaifan said:

The purpose of Paradise wasn't to save as many people as possible.  It was to make sure the human race didn't go extinct. 

After the tragic death of her son, tech mega-billionaire Samantha Redmond (aka "The richest woman in the world," code name: "Sinatra") initiated and paid for the construction of a safe and secure underground haven for her family when she became aware of a pending surface destroying catastrophe, and a population of 25,000 wouldn't be so large as to immediately overwhelm the available resources but large enough to maintain a very pleasant life for her family and the other billionaires - - but, again, I refer to E.M. Forster's 1909 short story, "The Machine Stops" as a blueprint for what might be Paradise's future.

[topanga]

On 3/10/2025 at 10:20 AM, chaifan said:

The purpose of Paradise wasn't to save as many people as possible.  It was to make sure the human race didn't go extinct.  So I'm assuming that 25,000 was a number they chose to ensure survival of the species in 100 years, and the top number was dictated by resources.  (What could be brought in, what can be grown there, etc.)  Yes, they could physically fit more people in that space, but could they be provided for while trying to maintain a "normal" society?  Gabriella has talked about the psychology of what they did to make this all seem "normal", and overcrowding would have a psychological impact.  

And I totally agree that they should have pets in there of some sort.  If not allowing individual pets, then a community animal shelter that people can visit.

This also makes me question possible eugenics. Paradise did seem racially diverse, but were there people there with disabilities or cognitive differences or mental health diagnoses? Or would that interfere with Sinatra's ideas for repopulating society? 

[chaifan]

@topanga  I had that thought earlier in the series.  I was wondering if Teri was purposely detained in Atlanta because she had a gene for MS or ALS or something like that.  But, by the end of this season that definitely was not the case.  So I don't think they got into eugenics.  Also, that would likely mean splitting up families.  Like the scientist may have been AOK, but what if her bartender husband screened likely for developing cancer or Alzheimers or something?  Would they say "oh, you can come in, but you have to leave your husband behind"?  

I would hope they got a fleet of psychologists in there, not just Gabriella.  I'd think everyone would have PTSD and survivor's guilt, just for starters.  

[circumvent]

On 3/7/2025 at 4:45 PM, marinw said:

if you bring new people in, the kids will have no immunity.

We would need to know how they prepare the air they breathe and the water they drink because if the newborns cannot build their immunity, then the whole thing is lost.

On 3/10/2025 at 10:20 AM, chaifan said:

Paradise being a city full of billionaires is complete speculation

I don't remember anyone saying that it was full of billionaires. For myself, I said that there are billionaires in control of the place

 

12 hours ago, topanga said:

This also makes me question possible eugenics. Paradise did seem racially diverse, but were there people there with disabilities or cognitive differences or mental health diagnoses? Or would that interfere with Sinatra's ideas for repopulating society? 

Definitely eugenicist society. Maybe there are neurodivergent people in their midst because some of them can not only pass for typical, but may also have the type of brain required to run things in the way that might be needed. Which doesn't mean that their children, if they have one, would be the same kind of neurodivergent (or at all neurodivergent)  so it would be interesting to explore that. What would they do with a child that shows signs of disabilities that ae still seen as trouble of that most people believe is a terrible fate. 

27 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Like the scientist may have been AOK, but what if her bartender husband screened likely for developing cancer or Alzheimers or something?  Would they say "oh, you can come in, but you have to leave your husband behind"?  

That's exactly what they would do. A quick search shows that today, 25 k would be more than enough to repopulate the planet, a diverse one. T=but this diversity includes race, not divergent brains or disease.