S12E03: Tipping

[Lantern7]

There's such a thing as a sub-minimum wage?!?

John's topic for this week couldn't reach the unmitigated horrors brought about by Kash Patel, the podcast host he hired as his second who is basically Diet Alex Jones, and the fiasco that was Friday. Seriously, in a meeting between the leaders of the United States and Ukraine, why the FUCK was JD Vance there? When was the last time you saw a veep in such a situation? I guess Trump needed a partner to try and humiliate Zelenskyy. Yet another black eye for the country in a seemingly unlimited series of black eyes.

Patel basically wrote three books of Trump fanfic. Yeah, I did that a lot when I first got online, but I never got to a level where I had it fucking published. This fucking country.

What? Right, tipping. Bit of a complex issue, no easy answer for either side of the argument. John had some fun with it. The tip jar was a nice touch. Sub-minimum wage, though? That's horrifying.

TRUMP. FAN. FICTION. The horror . .  .

Edited Yest. at 06:33 AM by Lantern7

[kittykat]

The fact that these assholes got in is a whole other issue all together because Republicans didn't have the spine to stand up to this.  Kash Patel is an embarrassment and that podcaster...wow.  Yeah you really owned us.

We knew the Zelensky catastrophe was going to be touched on and it's no less awkward to watch a second time.

I worked on the service side in restaurants for many a year and thankfully in California so I never had to deal with the whole sub minimum bs but I knew about it well.  I do agree that tip culture is complicated.  I always tip servers, drivers, even a barista if I'm feeling friendly that day.  I've been there and I know what it is to rely on those tips. 

That said I wholeheartedly support not tipping if the restaurant is paying their staff well.  As John said it's so ingrained I'll probably tip anyway.  But the whole culture of making anyone rely on tips as their income and not making a paycheck is straight up exploitation.

[Annber03]

8 minutes ago, kittykat said:

We knew the Zelensky catastrophe was going to be touched on and it's no less awkward to watch a second time.

I'd heard about the clip, but hadn't seen it yet, not until now. 

Hoooooooooooooooooooooo, boy, I actually flipped off my TV and yelled, "FUCK YOU!" during that. Hloly shit, "embarrassing" doesn't even begin to describe that entire scene. Zelensky has far, FAR more patience and grace than I think most poeple would in his shoes, let's just put it that way. 

Just. God, world, on behlaf of this dumbass govenrment, I am so, so deeply sorry. 

As for the main topic, yeeeeeeeeeeah, that sub-minimum wage thing is absolute bullshit and it's criminal that it's been allowed to go on as long as it has. There is no justifiable reason to pay someone so little that they can't even get a proper check out of it. What the actual hell is that nonsense? It just boggles my mind how poeple are still so resistnat to paying employees a livable wage. It's one of those issues where I know why it's a thing, but that doesn't mean I get why it's a thing, you know? 

And yeah, refusing to tip service workers to try and make some point is a very dumb way to go about the issue since, as John noted, they have no control over the pay sisues going on. I'm also struck by the constant, "This is your job, I shouldn't have to pay extra" comments, 'cause, yeah, it is true that serving people and delivering items and so forth is indeed what waiters and delivery people and so on are expected to do...

...but having worked retail and knowing how customer service jobs can be in general, I also know that sometimes those employees are asked or expected to do and put up with shit that is very much NOT part of their job description. We all know that customer service work is a very thankless type of work in so many ways, not just because of the paltry pay, but also because of the awful behavior of customers much of the time. So in that case, I kinda feel like yeah, they do desrve a little extra pay as a result. 

But yes, if people are tired of tipping, ensuring that these workers got an actual living wage would be a great way to start fixing that isuse. 

Also, yeah, maybe we shouldn't be taking policy advice from Kid Rock? Just a crazy thought. But considering the administration we've got now, I also sadly can't say I'm surprised. 

I definitley agree, though, that expecting a tip on automated services where you're doing all the work yourself is...remarkably stupid and nonsensical. 

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

There's such a thing as a sub-minimum wage?!?

That's what I said. I had no idea this existed. How did I not know that? Get rid of it.

I also didn't know about some of the places that ask for tips. That's ridiculous. 

I tip. But I don't tip to supplement the person's income. I do it to let them know I appreciated the service. Well, that's my idea, but I do feel obligated to automatically tip a server even if the service was just adequate. 

I knew about servers being required to share their tips with the rest of the restaurant staff, but I had no idea that they're required to do that even if they aren't tipped. I'm not sure if that happens at every restaurant, but that's absolutely inexcusable.

John briefly mentioned the possibility of fraud. Way back when Trump first talked about no tax on tips, I read somewhere that investors (I can't remember exactly) could use that exemption. I wish I had saved that article.

The woman who cuts my son's hair quit her job at Supercuts and decided to work out of her house. The first couple of times there I gave her a $5 tip, and then I thought that was stupid because the money for the haircut went directly into her pocket. No middleman.

I loved the clip of the guy screaming about being asked to tip at a self-serve froyo place. Cracked me up. 

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I'd heard about the clip, but hadn't seen it yet, not until now. 

Hoooooooooooooooooooooo, boy, I actually flipped off my TV and yelled, "FUCK YOU!" during that. Hloly shit, "embarrassing" doesn't even begin to describe that entire scene. Zelensky has far, FAR more patience and grace than I think most poeple would in his shoes, let's just put it that way. 

Yup. I'm glad other countries and even media here (like the Wall Street Journal, if you can believe it) expressed their horror at what happened. Yes, Vance was there as Trump's wingman, there to gang up on Zelensky. And so accurate when John said Vance was doing this to suck up even more to Trump. 

I was trying to find a complete transcript because I do not want to watch any more of that shit. I could only find partial transcripts, but I read that for most of the meeting, it was civil and reasonable. Then Trump started saying stuff like Zelensky needed to be open to diplomacy, and Zelensky said Putin doesn't honor agreements, and Trump went off because Z badmouthed his Russian buddy, and that's when it all went to shit.

Trump just cannot have anyone say bad (true) things about Putin. 

And everyone who wants anything from Trump must flatter and suck up to him. It helps if you call him "sir." "Sir, you are the greatest President ever, sir. It brings tears to my eyes, sir, what wonderful things you're doing for America, sir, and for the world, sir."

Macron plays that game, and so did Zelensky ... up to a point where he had to point out that Putin is not to be trusted and that Ukraine needs assurances that the US will make sure any treaty is honored by Russia.

And then that absolutely ridiculous bit from Vance, "You didn't even say thank you." As so many places, and John last night, pointed out, he HAS thanked the US (and Trump by name, I believe) many many times. 

And that stupid reporter/boyfriend of MTG bringing up Zelensky not wearing a suit. I wish Z had said that he wears the clothes he does to be in solidarity with all his people literally fighting the Russian invasion. It would have been great if he had pointed out that Churchill sometimes wore workman's clothes during the Blitzkrieg. As well as Z did in this horror show, I'm sure he was caught off-guard by these unprecedented attacks from T and V.

Quote

Just. God, world, on behlaf of this dumbass govenrment, I am so, so deeply sorry. 

I was thinking of getting on Bluesky to send a message to Z, but it doesn't look like he's on it. I think he knows that millions of Americans were absolutely appalled and embarrassed by it.

Oh, and of course Bongino is there to use the FBI as a cudgel against who he (and Trump) see as America's enemies. That is one of Trump's goals, to get revenge on everyone who investigated his crimes or said bad (true) things about him. 

As for other stuff in the show, that flying car was funny. It did look like a bizarro version of Lightning McQueen. A drone in a car costume. :D

Poupon U. I want it. Mustard is my favorite condiment. I'd love to visit that museum.

Edited 23 hours ago by peeayebee

[DoctorAtomic]

10 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

There's such a thing as a sub-minimum wage?!?

I knew that because my roommate in grad school worked at the local Friday's and would show me his check. I tip generously at the establishments I attend regularly; bars, restaurants. Also, if we're at a working lunch, for example, it comes up where we work invariably, and I tip well as representing the institution. I got my reimbursement denied one time because I tipped 'too much'. We were a party of 10, and there were only two servers who were on their feet constantly for over 3 hours. They actually came out to thank us after. The person who denied me was an idiot who mismanaged finances and didn't have the authority to make the call, but I was still too new. 

But for the tablets, I usually select the lowest. One of the coffee shops in town will give you refills if you ask, so I'll tip a little more because you're at least getting a second cup of coffee for nothing. 

Here's one that came up recently. When you're staying at a hotel and breakfast is included do you tip? 

What I liked about the meeting was the massive dis Zelensky dropped.
"You don't hold the cards."
"I'm not playing cards." 

Zelensky held numerous talks with Russia prior to the initial invasion in 2022, obviously to no avail. You don't have to be Kissinger to grasp that he'd be justifiably gun shy about taking Russia at face value on any ceasefire. 

I'm probably in the minority, but I'm not in favor of a ceasefire. Russia is being ground down; they're pulling in North Koreans and paying Yemeni mercenaries. The Europe NATO nations don't seem to want to back down either. 

[Shrek]

Everyone is forgetting that Ukraine (& most of Europe) gave up their nuclear defenses on the agreement that the USA would intervene if anything happened like has done. The orange felon doesn't believe that any agreement made before 1/20/25 (including his own) is now null & void because he didn't make it since this term started.

Everyone in Europe now realises this & I'm sure the wheels are in motion to get away from relying on the USA for anything. He wants to gift Europe to Putin by staying out of the way while he gets to bully the rest of the Americas, north, south, and everything in between, into bending to his will. 

The other worrying thing is that Trump has ordered a pause in US cybersecurity & offensive against Russia. This seems to have flown under the radar with everything else happening. Putin must think Trump is an idiot, or he's in on the whole thing.

Edited 20 hours ago by Shrek

[peeayebee]

54 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Here's one that came up recently. When you're staying at a hotel and breakfast is included do you tip?

If I'm being served, yes. If it's a buffet, then no.

For the past few years I've also been leaving tips and a thank you note in my hotel room when I check out. I was in a hotel a couple of weeks ago, and no housekeeping staff ever came in the room. Obviously, I didn't leave a tip.

9 minutes ago, Shrek said:

Everyone is forgetting that Ukraine (& most of Europe) gave up their nuclear defenses on the agreement that the USA would intervene if anything happened like has done. The orange felon doesn't believe that any agreement made before 1/20/25 (including his own) is now null & void because he didn't make it since this term started.

I've been reading about Ukraine giving up his nuclear arsenal in exchange for US protection, so it's not news to me. Trump needs to be confronted with this, but with his friendly media surrounding him, that ain't gonna happen.

But as you suggest, he'd probably simply say, "That was a bad deal. I only do good deals."

It's all transactional with him. He has no understanding of altruism, of doing something for someone without getting anything in return. Of course the US would get something in return: protecting democracy and preventing further illegal incursions into countries. There's also standing with allies. They helped us after 9/11. And now he's just thumbing his nose at them all.

"What will you give me?" is his refrain. The deal-maker. Actually, he's a shakedown artist. I mean, with Ukraine, he would only help if the US would get mineral rights. He always has to get something. He's a pig, an embodiment of everything that can go wrong with a human being.

[Shrek]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 

Here's one that came up recently. When you're staying at a hotel and breakfast is included do you tip? 

 

Tip who?

The only people I tip at a hotel are the maids if I've stayed more than one night & the person who brings my suitcases up to my room if I use that service, same applies for valet parking if I use that.

Edited to add that I'm British so tipping doesn't come easy as hardly anyone gets tipped in the UK, or didn't when I lived there. I usually let Mrs Shrek do the tipping amount at restaurants because I still struggle with the right amount. I have also been known to ask the server if they get the whole tip or if they have to share, I give more if they get it themselves & they've done a good job.

Edited 20 hours ago by Shrek

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't tip for the hotel room. That's where I draw the line. Most places I stay, they actually leave an envelope out for the tip. However, I put the do not disturb sign out so they never come in. There's nothing for them to do. 

[Hanahope]

I think it’s bull that if the server gets shafted on a tip they still have to pay bussers or dishwashers.  Frankly everyone should be paid a real wage and get rid of that sub wage.  
 

[JustHereForFood]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm probably in the minority, but I'm not in favor of a ceasefire. Russia is being ground down; they're pulling in North Koreans and paying Yemeni mercenaries. The Europe NATO nations don't seem to want to back down either. 

Yeah, none of the commentators that I listened to, or any of the Ukrainians I follow online are in favor. It would only help Russia to pause, regroup, make more weapons and train more soldiers and then attack again, that is their style. Also, what would happen to the occupied territories during ceasefire? Russia holds parts of Ukraine now, people are getting kidnapped, threatened, tortured, raped and killed, forcibly conscripted to fight against their own people and their children are being kidnapped to Russia to get brainwashed because that fuckland is facing a demographic crisis. Those can't be just abandoned, Ukraine needs to get them all back.

I hate Trump and everyone who voted for him or refused to vote for Harris. I hope they all suffer miserable lives.

[Avaleigh]

14 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I knew about servers being required to share their tips with the rest of the restaurant staff, but I had no idea that they're required to do that even if they aren't tipped.

It depends on the restaurant. Not all places have the same rules. I've been everything from a host to a manager among other F&B positions over the years. A mom and pop restaurant isn't necessarily going to have the same rules as a chain, restaurants that serve alcohol and have a lot of bar action are different than family style restaurants, and restaurants that are in hotels and are unionized will have different challenges than other fine dining f&b outlets. 

In the hotels where I've worked (each four or five star), in most situations, a server would not be expected to pay a busser or a bartender or host on a table that stiffed them. Where I've seen things get tricky are situations involving the bar. Say a server manages to upsell their table and they get their guests to buy a four figure bottle of wine? If the person who buys the expensive bottle doesn't leave an adequate tip, I've seen a couple of situations where the server did indeed end up owing the bartender money. Also, keep in mind, in these cases, all the bartender did was open up the bottle and that little action made them entitled to a portion of the tip even though the server did the bulk of the work including pouring the wine.

Also, in two properties where I worked, what the server would pay out a busser or server was often up to the discretion of the server, but was generally expected to be in the neighborhood of 10% of what the server made that shift. Some places can afford to employ multiple bussers. In that case, generally, a busser would be assigned to assisting one or two servers, so the server would only have to tip out one busser. In some places, an employer might only opt to employ one or two bussers and the server might be expected to tip out both bussers plus bartender and possibly even a barista and/or host. 

As challenging as the tipping can be for a server, it can sometimes be even worse for a busser. Imagine busting your ass and being responsible for keeping the entire restaurant clean, with maybe one other guy helping you, if you're lucky, only for a server to tell you 'hey I got stiffed a couple of times, so this is all you get even though you did a lot of the heavy lifting this shift.'

Stiffing people is not the right thing to do if you're unhappy about tipping culture. (The tablets though that were described in this episode like with the froyo--obviously all of that is ridiculous.)

22 hours ago, Annber03 said:

But yes, if people are tired of tipping, ensuring that these workers got an actual living wage would be a great way to start fixing that isuse. 

This is one of those situations where it will be impossible to please everyone. I've worked in two different states, I've seen a union property in CA, a union property in NY, and several non union restaurants in both states.

Now, maybe it's because all of my experience has been working in places where people have a lot of money to spend. Whatever the reason for it, anytime you ask servers and bartenders if they would prefer to be tipped employees vs employees who are paid a fair wage, they choose tips everytime. Unanimously. I've yet to meet the server or bartender in LA or NYC who didn't prefer getting tips. The money is better than some people might expect. 

Just as an example (and if I hadn't seen it for myself, I wouldn't have believed it) there are some in room dining servers (room service) who are cracking six figures due to autogratuities. I've seen bartenders who make around $90,000. It depends on where a person works. I've seen breakfast crew servers make an average of $400 a day. They know they aren't going to make that without tips even if their hourly gets bumped up. In the hotel where I work, the servers make $15 or $16 an hour in addition to their tips. They also get to automatically include a 20% gratuity for parties of 6 or more, so there's no fear that they'll get stiffed when it comes to large parties. The union also protects them from having to go outside of their job description in addition to ensuring that the employer has a certain amount of staff on the floor. Non union places can sometimes be guilty of running skeleton crews in order to save money. They overwork a small amount of employees, and the guests are left with average to below average service because the employer wants to pinch pennies wherever they can. Of course people are going to resent tipping in those situations. 

If employers start paying employees a fair wage, not only are the menu prices going to go up, but they aren't going to have as many employees on the floor. Also, when the servers were given their raises in our hotel, the prices of numerous menu items and hotel amenities (like valet parking, minibar items, spa treatments, etc) increased. Employers will do whatever they can to pass on the cost to the consumer. 

I don't know what the right answer is to the tipping issue, but it is absolutely complex and I generally make sure to tip even when the service isn't great because I always suspect that there are other issues at play that are out of the control of the servers and other waitstaff. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

12 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Here's one that came up recently. When you're staying at a hotel and breakfast is included do you tip? 

It depends on the hotel. Two places I worked, if you had the breakfast package, then that meant a 20% gratuity was already included. All the person had to do was sign it to the room and the front desk would take care of the rest. The server would include the 20% and the front desk would make sure the guest wasn't charged anything additional because they'd already paid to have the breakfast included. Also, some places like a luxury hotel in downtown LA that I'll refrain from mentioning by name, they put an autogratuity on. Where they're kind of scummy/rude is that they'll include the 20% but the receipts still print with the place where an additional gratuity is optional. Some people don't look carefully at their bill and they might unknowingly leave a double tip. Most servers will let their guests know the deal, but some are greedy assholes who are hoping they can sucker one or two people a shift.

In places where it's a very basic buffet there's no need to leave a tip. That being said, sometimes there's a person making omelets and stuff--I'll leave them a tip. Sometimes they'll even have tip jars. 

Finally, when in doubt, since different places have different set ups, it doesn't hurt to ask. Servers always appreciate it when someone cares enough to check. 

[Shrek]

8 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 

Finally, when in doubt, since different places have different set ups, it doesn't hurt to ask. Servers always appreciate it when someone cares enough to check. 

That's good to know because I ask a lot & then get some strange looks from other customers so I'm never sure if I should be asking.

as for the paying them a real wage, of course they should get paid correctly, most places are not high end & even if they are paid a living wage. I don't think tipping would stop & nobody has suggested it would or should, it hasn't in states where a living wage is paid. Just that it shouldn't be relied on for people to be able to pay their rent. 

Edited 37 minutes ago by Shrek