Season Eight: Scambled Episode Order and Writers' Strikes, Oh My! And Hi, Zack Nichols...

[GHScorpiosRule]

It seems my hate of all things Leight fuzzed my brain because apparently, he's no longer show runner this season, and it SHOWS, pardon the pun. Walon Green is, and the fact that "The Lean" is back, along with the smart thinking Goren, minus scripts (so far) by Leight and Martin, they're actually..good.

[WendyCR72]

I honestly thought Warren Leight was through S9. Really. Are you sure? (Not that I'd be sad if you are right!)

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well, I didn't see his names on any writing or producer credits so far, and I also noticed that writers such as Michael Chernuchin (sp?) from the mothership were added to the writing staff as well as producer credits. Walon Green is credited with writing, and I notice that whoever is running the show this season, he is not on all the writing credits.

 

The improvement over Bobby is also another indication.

[BizBuzz]

Hey there all L&O:CI fans, this is your spot to talk about the specific episodes found in Season Eight, they include:

 

1 Playing Dead   2009-04-19
2 Rock Star  2009-04-26
3 Identity Crisis  2009-05-03
4 In Treatment  2009-05-10
5 Faithfully  2009-05-17
6 Astoria Helen  2009-05-31
7 Folie a Deux  2009-06-07
8 The Glory That Was... 2009-06-14
9 Family Values  2009-06-21
10 Salome in Manhattan 2009-06-28
11 Lady's Man  2009-06-28
12 Passion   2009-07-12
13 All In   2009-07-19
14 Major Case  2009-07-26
15 Alpha Dog  2009-08-02
16 Revolution  2009-08-09

 

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Hah! I'll only ever be talking about the odd numbered episodes because Mike was GONE and as much as I like Jeff Goldblum, he was so miscast for this show and well, bitterness abounds so this viewer was so not interested in watching the even numbered episodes!

 

And ION has been acting wonkey, because though it recorded the episodes, it refused to play the first and third, which are Goren and Eames episodes. They were just frozen. So I'll have to wait until my local DC affiliate airs it to talk about it.

 

But generally, I can't stand, continue to not being able to stand Ross's buttinsky, blowhard ways. His captain is SUCH a puppet of the brass. He continues to harp on the political ramifications of investigations instead of telling his detectives to find the killer and just get them. Something Deakins EXCELLED at. Having his detectives' backs. And I happened to have one of the Nichols episodes on background and surprise surprise. He's getting in Nichols's face about him being out of order, blah, blah, shuthefuckupRoss.

[WendyCR72]

No wonder it took Ross so long to make captain. I REALLY missed Deakins. I bet Goren and Eames did, too. Especially Goren.

[WendyCR72]

An episode I did sort of like in S8 - besides "Lady's Man" - was "Identity Crisis". Maybe because the victim and suspect also had their roots with a schizophrenic parent, and we see how Bobby was affected by this case.

 

I think he knew the suspect had to face justice, but I also got the sense that he understood his anger and pain, even as he didn't condone the murder. But it had a little bit of the psychological bent back, albeit as a more personal level. But in this case, it seemed to connect to Goren's own past, but it didn't OVERWHELM the case as it would have in seasons past.

[GHScorpiosRule]

GAH! That was one of the episodes that "froze" and wouldn't play for me! But yes, I agree, it was a good one, along with "Lady's Man." Totally loved how Bobby played that fuckwit of a loser ADA who couldn't deal and got all petulant because Alex didn't have sex with him.

 

You will notice that same actor, is now playing ADA on SVU as Barba.

 

I felt bad for Bobby that Alex automatically suspected him of not trusting her when he started to go over the original evidence. I was like, dude, you know him. This is how he works! Bobby needs to see everything so he can figure out what's going on with the present!

[WendyCR72]

At the same time, though, I think Bobby didn't hold it against Alex. As he told douchecanoe Mulrooney, Alex spent over a decade likely feeling guilty for helping Mulrooney lose a case - when he actually did it himself.

 

Alex couldn't be objective, so she lashed out, much like she did in "Amends" with the dredging up of her husband's death, and I think him handing Alex the cuffs at the end of "Lady's Man" was his way of telling Alex it's done and to put it to bed for her sake.

[cooksdelight]

Ohhhh, Folie a Deux is coming on ION East! I love this episode. Piper Parabo is such a good crazy mom. And I love Lynn Redgrave in anything.

[Donny Ketchum]

as much as I like Jeff Goldblum, he was so miscast for this show and well, bitterness abounds so this viewer was so not interested in watching the even numbered episodes!

Meh.  I liked Wheeler enough that I could watch Nichols's episodes.  Though I hate how she went from an almost equal partner with Logan, actually actively helping to solve the crimes, to basically relegated to sidekick duty with Nichols.  I get Jeff's a fantastic actor, but come on!  He wasn't the only one on the team!

[WendyCR72]

Maybe that's why Julianne Nicholson exited after S8? Just a theory. (Or it was as simple as she wanted to move on, I realize; she was on for 3 seasons!). But the timing is interesting, considering she exited the season after Jeff Goldblum came aboard.

[WendyCR72]

I'm sort of surprised that TPTB didn't do another "Wee Small Hours" thing to introduce Zack Nichols. While Mike Logan did make a S4 appearance and had done 1 or 2 S5 episodes before it, it seemed "Wee..." was the way to introduce both teams and their styles, so to speak.

 

As an aside, I'm a dork and liked the different credits for those two episodes, too.

[Maherjunkie]

Wouldn't that be way too premature?  Was there even talk of replacing CN then?  He just got there.

[WendyCR72]

By S8, CN was gone, and JG showed up. So it seemed this was decided before S7 wrapped. Considering "Last Rites" wrapped things up for Logan. Also, by then, CI was a summer series, so it would seem more time was had to plan, etc. But I could be wrong.

Edited June 23, 2014 by WendyR72

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm sort of surprised that TPTB didn't do another "Wee Small Hours" thing to introduce Zack Nichols. While Mike Logan did make a S4 appearance and had done 1 or 2 S5 episodes before it, it seemed "Wee..." was the way to introduce both teams and their styles, so to speak.

 

 

Not me. Why? Because Noth had history with the franchise, so to speak. We knew who he was, how he got screwed, and was stuck in Staten Island for 10 years. And this was his, well, return of the Prodigal Son, if you will.

 

We, or rather, I didn't know Nichols from Adam and despite my liking for the actor, didn't give two fucking shits.  Yeah, I suppose that's my ever lingering bitterness eeking through.

[WendyCR72]

We, or rather, I didn't know Nichols from Adam and despite my liking for the actor, didn't give two fucking shits.  Yeah, I suppose that's my ever lingering bitterness eeking through.

 

I actually 1,000% agree with this.  :-)  I was just curious. But your explanation also makes sense, given Logan was an established character. I also just thought it was a way to mesh the teams, so I was surprised Nichols didn't get the same. But, like you said, Mike Logan had history, so that would make a difference.

[Donny Ketchum]

I also just thought it was a way to mesh the teams, so I was surprised Nichols didn't get the same.

I actually wonder not only that, but also why Logan and Wheeler didn't get to work with Goren and Eames?  Because Logan did work with Wheeler differently than he did with Barek, and it would've been cool to see the contrasting styles there, too.

[WendyCR72]

The below quote has been taken from the Megan Wheeler thread:

 

I've only seen two of the Wheeler/Nichols episodes in season eight and holy cow, already I'm comfortable saying that by far Logan was a better partner. It felt more equal, even if it wasn't supposed to be due to his seniority and experience. With Nichols/Goldblum, it feels like she's being marginalized so Goldblum can hog the spotlight.

 

How goes the progress with S8, Chattygal?  Inquiring (read: nosy!) minds want to know!  :-)

[WendyCR72]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand Ion is back to S8 as of now. Bye, Logan! (UGH, hello, Nichols.)  The premiere, "Playing Dead", is skeevy what with all the incest. Hard to believe the mom from Picket Fences was such a bitch here.

[WendyCR72]

"Identity Crisis" just started, the one with the two men who had the schizophrenic mom who died and the older son assumes other identities. Seemed to parallel Bobby and Frank's life with their mom, except Bobby never killed Frank. Kind of sad, and a bit disturbing.

[WendyCR72]

CI loved the name Frank, didn't it? Goren's brother, not to mention TWO different cases with Nichols/Wheeler in S8 that also used the name... "Astoria Helen" is airing, and there's a suspect, Frank Stroup, and Helen also was talking about a guy named Joe - also the name of Alex's dead husband.

 

These people really should have bought a "name your baby" book to expand their horizons.

[WendyCR72]

I noticed the other day that two of Pope Rey's daughters are Olivia and Serena. Olivia, of course, also being Benson, but Serena also being her mother's name, and her deadbeat half-brother also names one of his daughters Olivia. And then there's Röhmbot Serena Southerlyn, and Serena Stevens on CI.

 

And let us remember the franchise's love of Alex for all 3 shows:

 

ADA Alexandra Borgia on the Mothership

ADA Alexandra Cabot on L&O: SVU

And, of course, Det. Alexandra Eames on L&O: CI

 

And, in S9, there is even a grandson of a perp, a little boy named...Bobby.

 

I've heard of recycling, but really?

[WendyCR72]

And the laziest of all lazy ones: James Steel (UK) and Jim Steele (Conviction). 

 

Half the fun in writing is coming up with new names. Where is their love for it???

 

I never even realized the James Steele issue 'til I saw it in the Mothership thread, where you mentioned it. How I missed it, I don't know. Maybe Dick Wolf and Company thought the same few names was more "real" or something. But yeah, like you, I wonder why the creative bubble couldn't be expanded insofar as naming these characters go.

 

At least Nichols' and Wheeler's first names, Zack (Zachary) and Megan, didn't seem to be repeated all over the show.

[WendyCR72]

Now you've made me curious! Fortunately, they only come up less than a handful of times.

 

Zachary Marshall (Rich Summer), the devious pharma exec who sabotages the nasal spray bottle in "Doped" (L&O).

Zachary Connor (Connor Paolo), twelve-year-old rapist and murderer (SVU).

Megan Maslin (Sharon Martin), college murderer (L&O).

 

Well...I stand corrected! It's kind of ridiculous once it's all put out there like that. And, as you said, Chattygal, lazy to boot.

 

ETA: "Folie A Deux", the one with the missing baby that wasn't, is on. And this one never made sense to me. Going by real age, it was said the kid would be well over a year, maybe almost 2. (Per when they interview the neighbor...) And the great aunt (Vanessa Redgrave) wouldn't KNOW this? The show set up that the kid was infant aged. I find it hard to believe this couple could keep a dead baby a secret (even if the wife was fragile/crazy) from their entire scope of friends and family.

[WendyCR72]

Something I forgot to post yesterday during the marathon: Like in S1 with Eames, as someone else had brought up (maybe Chattygal, maybe not!), I noticed in S8, Goren would go from cleaned up with fresh hair cut and clean shaven to bearded with curlier hair depending on the episode. Much like Eames in S1, the hair changed on a whim.

 

I'd love to know if the shows are in production order or not, too. But I guess we'll never know as the same order is on the DVD sets. But it's kind of funny.

 

And I notice the one "missing" episode remains so on ion as it went from one G/E episode, "Folie A Deux" to "Family Values", another G/E episode, still not showing "The Glory That Was" in between. Funny how there's no such issue with the episode across the pond insofar as the episode goes.

[Eolivet]

Well...I stand corrected! It's kind of ridiculous once it's all put out there like that. And, as you said, Chattygal, lazy to boot.

 

I think I know why this happens, as I remember reading about it a while back: in order to use a name on TV, you basically have to go through an approval process every time you "create" a new character name. It explains why so many writers (including Law & Order writers) recycle names or use names of their friends (with their permission). It's apparently a big deal to try and get a name "approved," and it's not worth it to most writers. For a regular character, maybe -- but for a one-off? That's why I think the perps had a lot of common names -- once it was used, it was fair game, so...why not use it again?

[WendyCR72]

I think I know why this happens, as I remember reading about it a while back: in order to use a name on TV, you basically have to go through an approval process every time you "create" a new character name. It explains why so many writers (including Law & Order writers) recycle names or use names of their friends (with their permission). It's apparently a big deal to try and get a name "approved," and it's not worth it to most writers. For a regular character, maybe -- but for a one-off? That's why I think the perps had a lot of common names -- once it was used, it was fair game, so...why not use it again?

 

Now that you mention it, Eolivet, I have heard of that. But even so, the names were overly used so, so much...surely there were 1 or 2 new names TPTB could clear? Sure, maybe it was involving more work, but still...

 

But yeah, I guess that makes sense, the issue of clearance.

[Eolivet]

I want to say a writer on CSI gave an interview about it -- that all their corpses were names of their friends because of the intense process involved in trying to clear a name -- making sure nobody else owns it or has it. Like, if Law & Order used the same name, you can't use it. Or if it's been used in a movie before. Something like that. I just remember hearing that all fictional names were registered, and if you came up with a new one, it had to be cleared.

 

The process may be different for books, but I definitely remember hearing you had to clear a name used on a TV show, and the problems crime dramas had because they needed so many different names each week.

[WendyCR72]

I just remember hearing that all fictional names were registered, and if you came up with a new one, it had to be cleared.

 

Like I said, I'm sure clearing names was a pain in the ass, but when your episodes become so saturated with the same names...there must be SOME new names that are up for grabs. I just think a portion of so little variety - besides clearing them - was just laziness and not wanting to bother, you know?

 

On a side note, besides Frank, Olivia, Serena, and Alex, Liz/Elizabeth seemed to be popular, too.

 

ME Liz Rodgers from all 3 franchise shows

Liz Olivet from the Mothership/(Cameo on CI)

And Alex's never-seen sister. (Although, I'm not ever sure the sister was ever explicitly named on CI...was she? But it seems to have stuck if you check out CI stories, so...unclear there.)

[Maherjunkie]

If you use just a first name there is a hurdle to clear?  Some unknown "Heather" out there could complain?

[WendyCR72]

If you use just a first name there is a hurdle to clear?  Some unknown "Heather" out there could complain?

 

With the odd nature of name clearance, who knows. But if I were to guess, I think it involves a "whole" name, first and last, and if someone wants to name someone Jack Smith or Jackie Smith, they have to make sure it's signed off on, which just seems weird, but hey, legalities are legalities, I guess.

[Eolivet]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand Ion is back to S8 as of now. Bye, Logan! (UGH, hello, Nichols.)  The premiere, "Playing Dead", is skeevy what with all the incest. Hard to believe the mom from Picket Fences was such a bitch here.

 

Ugh, I was wondering if it was meant to imply that the mother had molested her son, who molested his stepdaughter. I hadn't seen this one in a while, but I remembered the faux "wine" conversation. What a sleazeball.

 

Too bad, because Bobby has some zingers here -- the fake French accent with the wine guy and "Tony wants a shirt and a half" about mob code. VDO looked good here -- even sans suit and tie. The salt-and-pepper suited him. The beard, not so much.

[WendyCR72]

Ugh, I was wondering if it was meant to imply that the mother had molested her son, who molested his stepdaughter. I hadn't seen this one in a while, but I remembered the faux "wine" conversation. What a sleazeball.

 

Too bad, because Bobby has some zingers here -- the fake French accent with the wine guy and "Tony wants a shirt and a half" about mob code. VDO looked good here -- even sans suit and tie. The salt-and-pepper suited him. The beard, not so much.

 

I didn't mind the beard when it was closer to stubble or trimmed, @Eolivet, but the bushy beard later on? Nah. I notice Bobby's look - with some additional weight aside - went completely full circle. From the natty sharp-dressed man suit deal to the depressed look with the blazer/no tie ensemble...and back to well groomed and in the suits in S10.

[Eolivet]

I had forgotten that Bobby still looked nice in early S8, WendyCR72 -- before they decided that his "depressed look" (that we'd only seen when he was in "purgatory") should be his regular look. The shaggy beard was just a bad look. I don't know if it was for another VDO role, but your "the ever changing grizzly beard of Goren" title is sadly true.

 

(And what is "the return of the lean?" Not code for Nichols, I hope -- LOL.)

[WendyCR72]

I had forgotten that Bobby still looked nice in early S8, WendyCR72 -- before they decided that his "depressed look" (that we'd only seen when he was in "purgatory") should be his regular look. The shaggy beard was just a bad look. I don't know if it was for another VDO role, but your "the ever changing grizzly beard of Goren" title is sadly true.

 

(And what is "the return of the lean?" Not code for Nichols, I hope -- LOL.)

 

I can't take credit for the thread title, @Eolivet . That was actually thought up by @GHScorpiosRule ! But I can answer about "the lean". Nope, it has zip to do with Nichols. It was his lean, you know, how he'd sometimes bend to almost a 90-degree angle to make eye contact with a suspect.  :-)  It's also in the opening credits if you need an example.

[rujasu]

Maybe that's why VDO had to take a lighter schedule in the later seasons.  "I can't do an episode this week, I need time for my back to recover!"

[Eolivet]

Just finished "Faithfully" (great episode, Janel Moloney plays the cold, brilliant Stepford Wife to creepy perfection) and was so utterly confused about Bobby's "family." Who were those people? Didn't he describe one as his niece? Frank was his only brother, right? I thought he only had Donny as a nephew. Did Frank get around more than we thought? Or was another explanation given for Bobby's insta-family?

[WendyCR72]

Just finished "Faithfully" (great episode, Janel Moloney plays the cold, brilliant Stepford Wife to creepy perfection) and was so utterly confused about Bobby's "family." Who were those people? Didn't he describe one as his niece? Frank was his only brother, right? I thought he only had Donny as a nephew. Did Frank get around more than we thought? Or was another explanation given for Bobby's insta-family?

 

@Eolivet , I don't think it was ever explicitly explained as such, but we saw Bobby visiting family. I'm thinking perhaps Molly is a new-found niece of Bobby by way of...a sibling through Brady. Maybe something decent came from that. It would be the only explanation, unless Molly is an "honorary" niece or something, but since she was noted as family, it must be the former.

 

Because, yeah, Frank was Bobby's only brother and Donny, as far as we were told, was Bobby's only nephew through Frank. (Which...whatever. How did Frank keep him hidden like that? He wasn't that smart, IMO!)

[Eolivet]

 

 I don't think it was ever explicitly explained as such, but we saw Bobby visiting family. I'm thinking perhaps Molly is a new-found niece of Bobby by way of...a sibling through Brady. Maybe something decent came from that. It would be the only explanation, unless Molly is an "honorary" niece or something, but since she was noted as family, it must be the former.

 

Because, yeah, Frank was Bobby's only brother and Donny, as far as we were told, was Bobby's only nephew through Frank. (Which...whatever. How did Frank keep him hidden like that? He wasn't that smart, IMO!)

 

Maybe Cyrus hid his secret family for him (sorry, Scandal reference -- can't help it with Goldwyn).

 

I really like that explanation though, WendyCR72. And had Leight left at this point? I feel like the more subtle "Bobby has a family now, we just won't say where it's from" seems like something another showrunner would do. With Leight's heavy hand, there'd be lots of sobbing and lamenting about "I hope my niece doesn't grow up to be a serial killer!"

 

And one more random thing about "Faithfully" --I felt like they cast that African-American prosecutor as a nod to Carver, but it just made me miss Courtney B. Vance!

Edited December 7, 2014 by Eolivet

[WendyCR72]

Maybe Cyrus hid his secret family for him (sorry, Scandal reference -- can't help it with Goldwyn).

 

I really like that explanation though, WendyCR72. And had Leight left at this point? I feel like the more subtle "Bobby has a family now, we just won't say where it's from" seems like something another showrunner would do. With Leight's heavy hand, there'd be lots of sobbing and lamenting about "I hope my niece doesn't grow up to be a serial killer!"

 

And one more random thing about "Faithfully" --I felt like they cast that African-American prosecutor as a nod to Carver, but it just made me miss Courtney B. Vance!

 

Yeah, Leight was out by S8. Walon Green was EP that season. (Maybe S9, too? Don't know who was EP then, honestly.) And then, of course, came Chris Brancato as EP for S10, although I had read that Warren Leight was still around in S10 if just as a writer of the therapy scenes.

 

And, yeah, I do like that Bobby's family situation became more even keeled as it had been before, but it was nice that Bobby had a niece that seemed fond of him. Poor guy deserved that much.

 

And I ditto the whole thing you said about the prosecutor in "Faithfully". I have a visceral reaction to the character of Carrie [the woman who was accused by G/E and was framed by the wife] in that episode, though, as she was played by Katheryn Winnick, and she annoyed the crap out of me during an arc on Bones, so...  :-)

[WendyCR72]

For all of the darkness that comprised the later seasons (maybe minus S10), there was a sort of cute scene in "Major Case". Ross and Nichols are blah-blahing about the case when Eames comes in to tell Ross how Goren called from Tennessee...and she sees Wheeler's water has broken and just immediately takes charge, asking what hospital, etc., and then guides Wheeler out of the office and looks back at Ross and Nichols and sort of chides, "Detectives!" as Ross glances at the wet floor in dismay.

[Donny Ketchum]

For all of the darkness that comprised the later seasons (maybe minus S10), there was a sort of cute scene in "Major Case". Ross and Nichols are blah-blahing about the case when Eames comes in to tell Ross how Goren called from Tennessee...and she sees Wheeler's water has broken and just immediately takes charge, asking what hospital, etc., and then guides Wheeler out of the office and looks back at Ross and Nichols and sort of chides, "Detectives!" as Ross glances at the wet floor in dismay.

You should've seen her face, too, when she said that last part.  It was like she was in shock that neither one of them seemed to know what to do.  And they're supposed to be cops.

 

I don't get why Ross got called that, though.  He was a captain, not a detective.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[WendyCR72]

I don't get why Ross get called that, though.  He was a captain, not a detective.

 

True, but he was in the fray more than Deakins ever was with many cases. As it was, the way he died was unrealistic since - as a captain - I doubt he would have had the authority to go undercover. One of the detective teams would have done that at his command. So, in that vein, he was still a detective...and was a detective before making captain. So I guess it still qualified. A little?  :-P

[Maherjunkie]

It's called lazy, convoluted writing.

[WendyCR72]

It's called lazy, convoluted writing.

 

And/or Eric Bogosian having a good agent to ensure he would have more to do than have Ross issuing orders - which is what police captains usually do. And I admit it: Unrealistic or not, I would have liked for Deakins to have had half the opportunities that Ross did.

[Donny Ketchum]

And/or Eric Bogosian having a good agent to ensure he would have more to do than have Ross issuing orders - which is what police captains usually do. And I admit it: Unrealistic or not, I would have liked for Deakins to have had half the opportunities that Ross did.

Deakins went out on the field a few times, too, didn't he?  I could've sworn I saw him out there with Goren and Eames and Logan and Barek a few times.  Not more than Ross, but he was still out there.

[WendyCR72]

Deakins went out on the field a few times, too, didn't he?  I could've sworn I saw him out there with Goren and Eames and Logan and Barek a few times.  Not more than Ross, but he was still out there.

 

The only time I recall was "My Good Name". All else seemed after hours at bars or whatnot. But I could have misremembered.

[Maherjunkie]

And with Logan Barek in The Good.

[WendyCR72]

And with Logan Barek in The Good.

 

Oh, okay. So that's...two? Ross seemed to be everywhere all the time. :-\  So I guess Jamey Sheridan played Deakins as a more realistic captain, but I still say he should have had at least a quarter of what Ross got.

 

On the plus side, at least Deakins didn't die.