Speculation: Montauk Does Rashomon

[Higgs]

I don't do "likes", but I enjoyed a great deal in the posts since my last entry. Kudos all around.

Some random notes:

The water in the show's poster is a metaphor, but never having been an English major, I won't try to define it.

At the time of the investigation, it is certain Alison is with neither Cole nor Noah. Because she stopped using the pill for some unknown period [feeble joke intended], her kid could be either's or anyone's, especially if, like the nurse in "The World According to Garp", she wants a child but not a husband. Because the investigation occurs at the midpoint of the series timeline, there will be ample opportunity for her to reunite with your favorite hunk.

As Darwinian natural selectors of the pool of DNA allowed entry to the next generation, women are rationally much more choosy about their sexual partners. Having said that, when considering the sexual depth of the human female (which I personally haven't done since around noon PST, today), the adult male seems a pathetic, shrivelled, little gender, the need for which, with expected advances in biotech, materials science, robotics, and Google Glass, may ultimately disappear. Kindertoten has "nuffin' to do wid it."

The dark that Noah first subliminally noticed in Alison suggested the possibility that, unlike his wife of 25 years, she wouldn't laugh when he asked her to look at him during sex. As soon as he saw Alison's quivering upper lip, whose heteroerotic symbolism I am loath to get into as I am already under a yellow card with the moderator, it was all over.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Higgs

[jrlr]

Okay, I WAS an English major, but the water thing is Freudian - water in dreams represents sex.  I think that Alison and Noah are completely hot together and utterly infatuated with each other.  The infatuation phase of love lasts for about two years, so they have a way to go before they can make any rational decisions about their connection.

 

Noah is right: Alison is very dark, and with good reason. I think she's been walking around like a zombie for two years, and her passionate reaction to Noah is the first instance of her coming back up to breathe.  She explained it herself in that kitchen scene where Noah was freaking out about her being a drug dealer and how she could go to jail or die or whatever and she said "Don't you get it?  I don't care what happens to me."  It may be the first time she has ever come close to articulating her grief, and I found it very powerful (of course I think Ruth Wilson is fucking GREAT).   Dealing with her grandmother's death and the subsequent opening of Gabriel's toy chest indicate she is truly coming back to life - she actually smiles at one point.  But why the hell are she and Cole living in Ma Barker's house?  

 

I have to say I'm not sure about three seasons of this show, since it was originally meant to be one season.  To me that stretching out of the story may be it's downfall.  But of course, I'll watch it.  

[Boundary]

 (of course I think Ruth Wilson is fucking GREAT).  

 

Of course she IS.

 

Ok, enough with the love in this thread, where is the debate?!

Edited December 14, 2014 by Boundary

[scrb]

I don't know, McNulty had hotter sex scenes in The Wire than Noah does here, though he has an overactive  imagination, like the first night, Alison is flashing him in the outdoor shower and then looking at him look at her bent over the car by Cole.

 

Of course, Alison's account of those events were slightly different ...

[Higgs]

Okay, I WAS an English major, but the water thing is Freudian - water in dreams represents sex. I think that Alison and Noah are completely hot together and utterly infatuated with each other....I have to say I'm not sure about three seasons of this show, since it was originally meant to be one season. To me that stretching out of the story may be it's downfall.

http://www.bartleby.com/283/10.html

...

I believe Treem suggested that the investigation being the midpoint of the story arc did not mean it would occur at the midpoint of the episodes. They'll adjust the writing according to what the network says they're getting, and an eventual Alison/Noah reunion, to pick one example, would not have to be smooth sailing (and couldn't be, from what I've seen of those two with the detective).

Ok, enough with the love in this thread, where is the debate?!

You first have to write something I disagree with to let loose the dogs of war. But perhaps I can start it off. I had never seen or heard of JJ before. I understand that how we perceive an actor's performance is a result not only of their own talent, but an unseparable combination of that along with the direction, writing, cinematography, costuming, lighting, etc. That said, I thought his "counting" scene on the NYC sidewalk was an unconvincing, maudlin mess. It was on the level of Charlie Hunnam in Sons of Anarchy (a show I began to watch late last summer only because I heard that Lea Michele was going to do a cameo on it; as a waitress, wouldn't you know). So there. But remember, http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/12/14/the-tradition-of-the-argumentative-jew/ Edited December 14, 2014 by Higgs

[Bcharmer]

But why the hell are she and Cole living in Ma Barker's house?  

 

I have to say I'm not sure about three seasons of this show, since it was originally meant to be one season.  To me that stretching out of the story may be it's downfall.  But of course, I'll watch it.  

 

I know it can be confusing, but Alison and Cole aren't living with Ma Barker. They were there for the family dinner, but came home to their chilly abode later.

 

From what I read, the show was originally written with several seasons in mind, but they didn't yet know if it would get picked up for a second season. When I first heard of the show, (I thought) I read somewhere that they planned for three seasons (which made me doubt the sustainability of it, based on the premise), but now I can't find any source for that. I can only find an interview* that confirmed they never intended for it to be a limited series, but for it to have multiple seasons.  I still feel it would have made for a good miniseries, but it would have needed to be tightened up quite a bit, and close to resolution at this point.

 

*http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/the-affair-co-creator-sarah-treem-we-wanted-to-tell-a-story-about-two-good-people/2

Edited December 14, 2014 by Bcharmer

[Boundary]

The concept is a best exploited in a mini series format but the characters they have created here give this drama legs. I, for one, would be disappointed if these characters disappeared after a few episodes. The only risk is that the he-said, she-said structure will get tiresome at some point. I'd imagine next year they will start to experiment a bit: perhaps whole episodes set in the future or dedicated to one POV. I'd only accept other POVs like Helen, Cole or Whitney's if they don't retread the timeline. I want to know what happens from here-onwards, not a different view of what we've already seen.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Boundary

[crashdown]

Is anyone hypothesizing that Alison's future kid is actually the one produced by Noah's daughter x Scotty?  It's possible that she never had the abortion and that Noah and Allison are raising it in the future (or just Allison).  Just a thought!

[DarkRaichu]

First time poster long time lurker.

 

Here is a thought:

We know there were a lot of wild inconsistencies between Noah's and Alison's POVs.  Now, what if both stories were PURPOSELY told in similar but with wildly inconsistent details by both Noah and Alison ?  What if both tried to mislead the detective as to who actually killed Scotty ?  Perhaps both were trying to protect the actual killer (Whitney ?) by placing some suspicion / motives on themselves and/or others ?

 

This was because some of details were so accurate (ie. Helen's shampoo) and yet others were so wildly different (who found the pregnancy test).  It seemed like both (or all adults ?) agreed to thwart the murder investigation.

 

 

 

One more (wild) speculation:  

What if Max and Helen did have an affair and Whitney was actually Max's ?  Then Max would have the motive to kill Scotty 

[Bcharmer]

It just seems unlikely that anyone, even Noah, would intentionally do a hit-and-run on Scotty over Whitney's pregnancy three years (or however many years before Scotty dies) after the fact. You would do something like that when you first find out, when your anger and passions are running on overdrive (to wit, Noah's attack on Scotty at Planned Parenthood)... not years later. So, apparently, there is another reason for someone wanting Scotty dead. It's just not making much sense to me yet. 

Edited December 17, 2014 by Bcharmer

[stillshimpy]

Well, that or it's also possible that Scotty keeps carrying on with Whitney and does something really charming, like introduce her to drugs?  

[Bcharmer]

Well, that or it's also possible that Scotty keeps carrying on with Whitney and does something really charming, like introduce her to drugs?  

 

 

Scotty: Whitney, I'd like to introduce you to Drugs. Drugs... Whitney.

Whitney: I believe we've met.

[crashdown]

Well, that or it's also possible that Scotty keeps carrying on with Whitney and does something really charming, like introduce her to drugs?

 

 

I've actually been thinking that Whitney might have gotten involved with the drug sales over the summer--she could be in deeper with the family than just sleeping with Scotty.

[JenE4]

I've actually been thinking that Whitney might have gotten involved with the drug sales over the summer--she could be in deeper with the family than just sleeping with Scotty.

I like this thought. Noah did ask her about how one would buy drugs and she seemed to give a mocking answer as if how would she know--similar to her reaction when they first asked her if she was pregnant. There has to be more to the drug dealing storyline. It would make sense if it crossed over into affecting Noah's life, too.

[Pallas]

Perhaps Whitney has been dealing for Scotty in her school?  

[Boundary]

Well, Scotty dies 3 years (??) into the future, right? So how is anything we've seen in the first season, so far, related to his death? Even The End, the one thing we've been told is part of the puzzle, there's no direct link to Scotty's demise. It's incredible how we have NO relevant information 9 episodes into the season. For that reason, I find that speculating on Scotty's murder is futile.

[crashdown]

I think the season's going to end with Noah's being arrested for the murder of Scotty.  Because of that, and because we have at least another season to go (possibly two, if the three-season plan rumors are correct and if HBO follows its usual practice of letting showrunners finish their stories), we can safely assume that Noah is NOT the murderer.  Personally, I'm going on the record early (and with nothing to go on) of fingering Cherry.  I think the cruel way she went after Alison when her house-of-cards was about to be exposed is enough to tell me that she's capable of doing pretty awful things, which might even extend to the murder of her own son

Edited December 16, 2014 by crashdown

[Boundary]

I think the season's going to end with Noah's being arrested for the murder of Scotty.  

 

The timeline doesn't work for that spec. Last week we saw Scotty's memorial, which is at least a couple of years away, when Alison has had another baby and found some money, and Trevor has moved up the education ladder a bit (based on Noah's phone call). 

 

EDIT: Unless you are saying Noah is arrested in the future. Hmmm....

Edited December 16, 2014 by Boundary

[Ellaria]

Well, Scotty dies 3 years (??) into the future, right? So how is anything we've seen in the first season, so far, related to his death? Even The End, the one thing we've been told is part of the puzzle, there's no direct link to Scotty's demise. It's incredible how we have NO relevant information 9 episodes into the season. For that reason, I find that speculating on Scotty's murder is futile.

 

Same here. We are trying to take events from S1 and extrapolate that into means, motive and opportunity for a murder three years away. I have been frustrating myself with these questions. Right now, there is a large piece of the puzzle missing. Maybe the finale will help.

[Pallas]

Has there been any confirmation that Alison bore a child in the future?  Or could "the kid" she has to get back to in the future be a stepchild -- one of Noah's two younger?

[Ellaria]

Has there been any confirmation that Alison bore a child in the future?  Or could "the kid" she has to get back to in the future be a stepchild -- one of Noah's two younger?

 

I have a few questions as well. Do we know for certain that Noah and Alison are married in the future...without knowing WHO they are married to?

[Higgs]

In the latest time period shown, with the detective's interrogations, Alison is not with either Cole* or Noah**, and Noah is not with Helen or married to anyone else***. Alison's "kid" could have been fathered by Cole/Noah/Oscar/(another man), be adopted, be a stepchild in a marriage, or be someone she kidnapped when a mother/nanny/au pair/stay-at-home dad was checking their Facebook page on a cell.

*At Scotty's memorial, with the case as yet unsolved, Alison sat unaccompanied at the back of the hall.

**The detective told Alison and Noah polar opposite stories about his own marital status, which he never would have done if there were any chance the couple were still even in communication with each other.

***Noah has nothing on his ring finger and tells Trevor he'll "call" him later about his homework, not "see" him later.

Also:

Although the detective addresses her as "Ms. Bailey", she answered the phone using her maiden name very early on in the series, so it doesn't mean she isn't married.

She is clearly wearing a ring on the fourth finger of her left hand.

The detective claims he is separated without custody of his children to a similarly situated Noah***. What is implied in his telling Alison that he is in a successful long-term marriage?

Treem says Scotty's unlamented demise occurs at the midpoint of the complete story's time arc, but after the midpoint of the episodes. I look forward to reading your detailed suggestions for what you want to happen/think will happen after Scotty's death is resolved. And btw, who killed him and why? (Remember, it's at least three years later, there has to be an explanation for why the perp would even be anywhere near Montauk on that fateful night, Scotty has to have a reason to be on foot in the middle of the night on a remote rural road after a party so as to be accessible to a "hit-and-run", and, if this seemingly contrived plot line is to have any resonance at all, it has to be one of the "emotional effects" of the affair.)

Edited December 18, 2014 by Higgs

[Ellaria]

Although the detective addresses her as "Ms. Bailey", she answered the phone using her maiden name very early on in the series, so it doesn't mean she isn't married.

She is clearly wearing a ring on the fourth finger of her left hand.

 

Yes, I thought that I recalled that Alison was wearing a wedding ring. And yes, addressing her as "Ms. Bailey" may not be indicative of her marital status.

 

The detective told Alison and Noah polar opposite stories about his own marital status, which he never would have done if there were any chance the couple were still even in communication with each other.

 

Why? The important thing is the response that he gets from them at that moment, in the interrogation room. He is trying to get an immediate reaction. What difference does it make if they go home and compare notes and discover that the detective was telling them two different stories? Noah already pointed out the differences in the sons/daughters part of the detective's story.

 

I thought that Noah referenced a "wife" in one of the early interrogation scenes. Of course, we don't know who that would be.

 

(Remember, it's at least three years later, the perp has to have a reason to be driving on the road to "The Edge", Scotty has to have a reason to be on foot in the middle of the night on a remote rural road after a party so as to be accessible to a "hit-and-run", and, if this seemingly comtrived plot line is to have any purpose at all, it has to be one of the "emotional effects" of the affair.)

 

"The End"...

How his death links back to the affair three years after the events of the present time is a big question. Even more so, why do I care about it (and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way)? 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[IMCranky]

"I thought that Noah referenced a "wife" in one of the early interrogation scenes. Of course, we don't know who that would be."

I thought it was in the first episode and he said something about his wife expecting him for dinner.

Edited December 18, 2014 by IMCranky

[IMCranky]

***Noah has nothing on his ring finger and tells Trevor he'll "call" him later about his homework, not "see" him later.)

I was wondering if it could be that Trevor is in boarding school. The night that episode aired, someone questioned about whether Trevor would be old enough in the future to be writing on Huck Finn and Sarah Treem tweeted something about Trevor being very "advanced". And in the scene where the Solloways are leaving Montauk, the grandmother, when saying goodbye to Trevor, called him something like "my genius boy".

Edited December 18, 2014 by IMCranky

[Higgs]

What difference does it make if they go home and compare notes and discover that the detective was telling them two different stories? Noah already pointed out the differences in the sons/daughters part of the detective's story.

......

How his death links back to the affair three years after the events of the present time is a big question.

If Noah and Alison were still in communication, they would know beforehand they were each being brought in for questioning, and if either were complicit, would coordinate their stories. The detective's line of questioning would have been very different. As to the detective's opposite tales, they would have recognized the mind-game and readjusted. In his last questioning of Noah, the detective did not forget what he first told him, he deliberately changed the gender of his children as a signal that he had been screwing with Noah all along, and he clearly got the disconcerted, fazed reaction he was after. Misunderestimating (thanks for all those fun times, W.) the detective would be folly.

......

What if Noah killed Scotty to prevent the facts of his true love Alison's drug dealing coming to light, and Max helps him beat the rap? How would that grab ya?

[Ellaria]

If Noah and Alison were still in communication, they would know beforehand they were each being brought in for questioning, and if either were complicit, would coordinate their stories. The detective's line of questioning would have been very different. As to the detective's opposite tales, they would have recognized the mind-game and readjusted. In his last questioning of Noah, the detective did not forget what he first told him, he deliberately changed the gender of his children as a signal that he had been screwing with Noah all along, and he clearly got the disconcerted, fazed reaction he was after. Misunderestimating (thanks for all those fun times, W.) the detective would be folly.

......

What if Noah killed Scotty to prevent the facts of his true love Alison's drug dealing coming to light, and Max helps him beat the rap? How would that grab ya?

 

I think that you are giving Noah and Alison way too much credit for coordinating stories and dealing with the detective's "mind games.' Noah's ego will trip him up every time and I'm sure our intrepid detective knows it. And since this is one viewer's opinion vs. another's, I guess we will have to disagree.

 

And, for what its worth, I did not say that the detective "forgot." Please don't attribute a statement to me that I did not make. I, too, believe that the detective did it purposely.

 

And as to Noah killing Scotty to protect Alison...that would be very unsatisfying.

 

Additionally, I don't believe that Alison is Noah's "true love."

Edited December 18, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[Higgs]

"I thought that Noah referenced a "wife" in one of the early interrogation scenes. Of course, we don't know who that would be." I thought it was in the first episode and he said something about his wife expecting him for dinner.

It was in the third episode, in the middle of an interrogation session. However, Noah isn't wearing a wedding ring as he had been in all scenes during that first year.

[1]And, for what its worth, I did not say that the detective "forgot." Please don't attribute a statement to me that I did not make. I, too, believe that the detective did it purposely.

[2]And as to Noah killing Scotty to protect Alison...that would be very unsatisfying.

[3]Additionally, I don't believe that Noah and Alison are one another's "true love."

[1]Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you did.

[2] Why, other than the fact you don't like Noah? Which other prepetrator would have made the murder "satisfying"?

[3] What is "true love"? My use of the phrase was (only) partly ironic; it's as Noah would have thought of it.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Higgs

[Ellaria]

It was in the third episode, in the middle of an interrogation session. However, Noah isn't wearing a wedding ring as he had been in all scenes during that first year.[1]Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest you did.

[2] Why, other than the fact you don't like Noah? Who else would have made the murder "satisfying"?

[3] What is "true love"? My use of the phrase was partly ironic; it's as Noah would have thought of it.

 

I was ambivalent about Noah until this last episode. I then moved to "dislike."

 

As far as the murder being "satisfying,' I don't have enough information to decide who did it or why they did it and whether any of it is satisfying. Noah running down Scotty to protect Alison in the ill-advised drug dealing arrangement sounds improbable. Noah is all about Noah. If he did kill Scotty, it would be to protect himself, not anyone else...including his not-so-true love.

[Higgs]

Love comes in many forms.

Noah, Helen, and Alison: The Man, and the beauties of Light and Dark.

Noah (to Alison): "And whatever darkness you think you're hiding, it's written all over your fucking face."

Noah (to Helen, about Alison): "She was in a very dark place..."

"An accomplished career, financial security, and an attractive partner are no guarantee of happiness without vital, human connection."

Source: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120594/ugliness-fiction-peter-stamm-review?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=TNR%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter%20Template%20-%20Dec%2018

[IMCranky]

It was in the third episode, in the middle of an interrogation session. However, Noah isn't wearing a wedding ring as he had been in all scenes during that first year.

 

Noah not wearing a wedding ring doesn't mean he's not married.  I don't think he would lie to the detective about something so easily verifiable as having a "wife" who's waiting for him.

[scrb]

Seems like the murder case is gradually becoming more prominent.

 

AT first, it seemed really about this family drama of some middle class guy having an affair.

 

But now the murder case wraps around it.  Skeptical of this approach.

[Higgs]

Noah not wearing a wedding ring doesn't mean he's not married. I don't think he would lie to the detective about something so easily verifiable as having a "wife" who's waiting for him.

I agree, albeit with a caveat*. And his having remarried would not be inconsistent with the detective's playing him with a story of his own loss of custody. So who, if anyone, is the lucky lady, and will she be a new major character in S2?

*At the time of his questioning, Noah had become something of an arrogant prick, a junior Bruce Butler, if you will. His second novel was so successful it was going to be made into a MAJOR motion picture, so he was well on his way to significant fame and fortune. He had had no compunction in calling a cop investigaing a murder an "asshole". So there remains the possibility that he thought he could toss off an innocuous lie about a waiting wife just so he could get the hell out of there. ("So we done here? I told my wife I'd be home for dinner.") His lie about "The Edge", however, is another, much more complicated matter, for another time, if I can ever make any sense of it.

Seems like the murder case is gradually becoming more prominent. AT first, it seemed really about this family drama of some middle class guy having an affair. But now the murder case wraps around it. Skeptical of this approach.

If it's the affair that wraps around the murder case, as its cause, then it could work. Edited December 19, 2014 by Higgs

[IMCranky]

*At the time of his questioning, Noah had become something of an arrogant prick, a junior Bruce Butler, if you will. His second novel was so successful it was going to be made into a MAJOR motion picture, so he was well on his way to significant fame and fortune. 

Regarding the publishing of Noah's second book, I'm wondering if the fact that the publisher that he's been dealing with is Bruce's is going to be a factor going forward.  Bruce is enough of an asshole, and certainly valuable enough to the publisher, to make it difficult for Noah to get his book released.  Bruce advised Noah to channel his frustration into his writing, didn't leave his wife and daughter, and kept at least one long-term mistress on the side, and I could see him using his pull to try to force Noah to be like him and do the same.

[Boundary]

If Noah and Alison were still in communication, they would know beforehand they were each being brought in for questioning, and if either were complicit, would coordinate their stories.

 

I keep going back to that phone call that Alison made outside the police station. Who did she call? We know she's nervous around the detective, maybe she's withholding a material fact about Scotty's death. If so, she is doing so for someone she cares for, or for profit. She expected the person she called to be at the station with her, to buffer her from the "interrogation". The phone call was personal, so it wasn't a lawyer running late and if it had been so, there was no need to be so coy about it. The interrogation was about her affair with Noah, so I don't see how some nameless future husband can/should be dragged into this, and why she wouldn't want the detective to know she was calling her husband. It was either Noah or Cole. It's Cole's brother who's dead, so if Alison is a suspect, is blood thicker than water? Therefore, it was Noah in that phone call. She didn't want the detective to know she'd called him, perhaps not to look guilty, but more likely because they both know Noah is under suspicion. Hence, Noah and Alison are still in touch and are coordinating their actions. QED.

 

In the latest time period shown, with the detective's interrogations, Alison is not with either Cole* or Noah**, and Noah is not with Helen or married to anyone else***.

*At Scotty's memorial, with the case as yet unsolved, Alison sat unaccompanied at the back of the hall.

**The detective told Alison and Noah polar opposite stories about his own marital status, which he never would have done if there were any chance the couple were still even in communication with each other.

***Noah has nothing on his ring finger and tells Trevor he'll "call" him later about his homework, not "see" him later.

 

* Yes, she's most likely not with Cole anymore. Which is also why the detective was surprised she went to "the wedding".

** She is with Noah, most likely, as I have reasoned above, at the very least they're still in communication.

*** Noah is either with Helen or Alison. Others have mentioned the "dinner with wife" comment.

 

Also (this goes for Alison as well) I don't see how adding a unnamed third party spouse adds value to the story. If Noah and Alison are suspects in a murder investigation, while married to Jane and John, then this simply regurgitates the affair drama with new spouses. Nothing dramatically new there. 

 

Does Cole and Alison's marriage survive?

I don't think so. Alison's not mentally able to cope with that marriage. Besides, she doesn't love him. And a marriage not surviving a child's death is not that surprising (to me any way)

 

Does Noah and Helen's marriage survive?

This one has a chance of surprising people. If Helen recognises the emotional and mental pressure Noah was under and shifts to accommodate him; if Noah proves he values her and the kids above everything else, and acquires the motivation she expects from her husband career wise, this marriage has a chance. Noah's affair would be chalked up to a mid life crisis, he gets his groove back, she takes him back ...

Except we know that's not likely. He loves Alison, so until he disabuse himself of that notion, that marriage is not surviving.

 

Do Alison and Noah make it?

On the surface it looks like they do. He gets the success he's always craved, it makes sense that it's due to her influence. He has been shown to have the capacity to help heal her emotional wounds, so he's good for her in that sense. It's a matchup that makes sense, if one looks at it unemotionally. But this is no romance. There are consequences here, the cost of both marriages might be too high for them to go through with it. And if they do, they've probably gone over Scotty's body to do so, how much is the cost of their happiness? However, I do think they make but with a couple of dark clouds hanging over them.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Boundary

[Higgs]

[1] Hence, Noah and Alison are still in touch and are coordinating their actions. QED.

[2] I don't see how adding a unnamed third party spouse adds value to the story.

[3] Does Cole and Alison's marriage survive?I don't think so. Alison's not mentally able to cope with that marriage.

[4] Does Noah and Helen's marriage survive?

[5] Do Alison and Noah make it?

2. & 3. Agreed.

4. The marriage was between two inexperienced crazy kids with a well-understood quid pro quo ("safe" for money) that they have explicitly articulated. Noah does love Helen, but having found Alison, can't/doessn't want to live under the Butler roof any longer, and when he finds his own success, he doesn't need to. So agreed, no.

5. They could, but haven't yet.

1. I saved by far the toughest for last.

Alison (to the detective): "So you're talking to everyone who was there that night?... Everyone at the party was a local."

Was Noah at the party, as we know Alison was? Had Noah become a "local"? (Of course, the detective needn't restrict his questioning to party attendees.)

Given the detective's valid interest in understanding the relationships between all the possibly involved individuals, why did he never ask Noah or Alison about their activities following that first summer, at least three years before Scotty's death? Could it have been he was (mis?)led to believe Noah and Alison had gone their separate ways far from Montauk and neither had any further interactions with each other or any of the "locals", including any Lockhart? Then how did Alison come to be at a "locals" party? Has he (or Sarah Treem) never watched "The Wire"? Does he (or Noah or Alison) not know about cell phone logs? 'Tis a puzzlement.

Scotty was killed in a hit-and-run. He was therefore on foot, at a time and place where no one is on foot, unless they have somehow been lured out of their vehicle. So murder, not an accident. Noah said he'd never even heard of "The Edge", a blatant, knowing lie. Why? It wouldn't matter if the detective knew he had spent the night there with Alison three years before. It might matter if the detective knew he had made a reservation there the night Scotty died on the road to the club. Noah might have thought the detective wouldn't check a negative assertion. Noah might not understand that what happens in a computer, stays in a computer, cancellation or no cancellation. Was he trying to forestall further questioning on the subject? What was he ultimately trying to hide? C'mon, Mr. Solloway, we know either you did it, or you hired someone to do it, or you're protecting the person who did it. Why Mr. Solloway? Is it cherchez la femme, Solloway? Yeah, it always is with you writers, isn't it?

Edited December 19, 2014 by Higgs

[Pallas]

Scotty was killed in a hit-and-run. He was therefore on foot, at a time and place where no one is on foot, unless they have somehow been lured out of their vehicle. So murder, not an accident.

 

Not necessarily. We've met Scotty.  He's the Lockharts' Teddy Kennedy.

 

Scotty is the kind of guy who might end up on foot on a road to a place with only one destination named for The End of the World.  Scotty with car trouble and not waiting for the tow truck; Scotty having set up at drug deal near The End but away from the cops in the parking lot; Scotty drunk at the wedding with his keys taken away, and while still drunk, deciding to walk or hitch a ride to the party...Even, Scotty thrown out of a car driven by someone he knew well, or just met.  And while on foot on that dark road, Scotty might have been hit by any number of people: many of them not meaning to, though most of them with a plausible motive.  

[taikun.tv]

Just for the record, this was written after watching ep. 9.

I'm sure this could be filed between speculation and wishful thinking but here it goes:

I agree with the previous poster that said Noah or perhaps someone else will be arrested, since the whole purpose of the series seems to be how some apparently random affair led to a crime some years later. My hopes for next season are actually on a trial, where the testimony from Noah, Alison, and the detective are exposed in a somewhat more 'objective' manner. I could even hope for a testimony from characters as Helen, Cole, and Cherry.

I actually attempt to make sense of the whole Rashomon experiment on a long run perspective. This might also be induced by the fact the show creators managed to run their previous show In Treatment, where they came up with a way to extend some storylines. So far we've witnessed versions of the same story given that Noah and Allison are being considered suspects of a certain crime and have made up different stories out of the same experience, and the show has never made any attempt to show any objective truth other than the detective's reconstruction (that by definition will be biased given the misleading testimonies and the detective's hunch that there was actually a crime).

For a first season of a new series I would consider it quite accomplished a lot, and it's among my favorites this year. Despite the criticism, I really enjoyed a series with a full set of characters that are not only making bad choices under the premise of being infatuated after a long time, they have provided each one's reconstruction of reality according to how they feel now and as a whole is an interesting statement about how memory and emotions are inevitably intertwined. Actually at the time of the interrogations both Noah and Alison seem as conflicted/unhappy/worried as in the beginning of the series, but time has passed and the story they tell the detective seems like some story you tell yourself to feel comfortable in your own skin.

So back to speculation, I agree with a cliffhanger at the ending of the finale that somehow closes the story (so far Noah has a motive to go after Scotty, and the finale might just give a better picture about it) but leaves space to more memories to be revealed so that we can become nearer a somewhat more "precise" truth.

[Boundary]

Scotty was killed in a hit-and-run. He was therefore on foot, at a time and place where no one is on foot, unless they have somehow been lured out of their vehicle. So murder, not an accident. Noah said he'd never even heard of "The Edge", a blatant, knowing lie. Why? It wouldn't matter if the detective knew he had spent the night there with Alison three years before. It might matter if the detective knew he had made a reservation there the night Scotty died on the road to the club. Noah might have thought the detective wouldn't check a negative assertion. Noah might not understand that what happens in a computer, stays in a computer, cancellation or no cancellation. Was he trying to forestall further questioning on the subject? What was he ultimately trying to hide? C'mon, Mr. Solloway, we know either you did it, or you hired someone to do it, or you're protecting the person who did it. Why Mr. Solloway? Is it cherchez la femme, Solloway? Yeah, it always is with you writers, isn't it?

 

A few pertinent issues you've raised there. Scotty is dead and it's only this detective's hunch that Noah is involved. Chances are he is right but maybe he's not as honorable? Maybe he's got a bone to grind? I'm not willing to go that far yet, Noah stupidly lied to a detective and put himself in his crosshairs. But so did Alison, as you've noted in the same post. This party that supposedly had locals only had Noah as an attendee. And he didn't gatecrash, he booked a room. I think Alison brought Noah along, which provoked the Lockhart clan, Scotty especially. Considering Scotty's hot blooded nature, and his history with Noah, it doesn't take much imagination to see what happened.

 

Scotty later dies that same night but Noah doesn't fall under suspicion until this detective starts poking around. What gives? Why is Noah's presence at that party kept secret not only by Noah and Alison but presumably by the other Lockharts? Why didn't Cole immediately point a finger at Noah? They've got "contacts" at the station, right? I, too, find Noah's lie to the detective stupid but it's not so stupid if he had no reason to believe that the detective could take it further. If the Lockharts are indeed protecting Noah, or at least not accusing him, the more pertinent question is why? 

 

Obviously this leaves the question of who killed Scotty unanswered. I think it's too convenient to blame Noah. It's too easy, we'd already got this spec running after a few episodes. But it makes good drama and after hiring a decent lawyer Noah should be able to fight the charges. But obviously Alison, Noah and the Lockharts' axis has something going on. I think the drugs rear their head again, Noah alluded to a Lockhart/Hodges feud going back generations and rooted in the illicit trade. I think that's why the Montauk police didn't bother to investigate this death too hard. Still, Scotty's memorial was delayed for some reason, during which time Noah is allowed to go away to his readings and book signings. I smell a rat.

[Higgs]

[1] Scotty is dead and it's only this detective's hunch that Noah is involved.

[2] This party that supposedly had locals only had Noah as an attendee.

[3] I think Alison brought Noah along,

[4] I think that's why the Montauk police didn't bother to investigate this death too hard.

[5] Still, Scotty's memorial was delayed for some reason, ...

[1] The detective learned in Sleuthing 101 that people get murdered mostly because of money or "s*x" (as it's spelled in the transcripts). Accident-scene forensics or some other peculiarities make him suspicious. He learns very early on in his questioning of people at the party that the victim's sister-in-law, who was also at the party, had had an affair three years ago with one Noah Solloway, and that his brother's marriage was destroyed as a result. (Did no one notice or mention the Whitney connection? Given which of the theoretically antagonistic duo ended up dead, it would seem a tad more relevant.) Anyhoo, victim with a reputation as a hot-head + grudge(s) = trouble in Ocean City.

[2] Noah would thus have been brought in for questioning whether or not he had been at the party. (I don't remember where it's shown he was.)

[3] If Alison had brought Noah along, why would the detective, who would have heard that from other guests, as he had about the affair, (seemingly) never have asked them to describe their interactions with each other following that first summer?

[4] Absent some minimal compelling evidence, local cops would not like to declare a hit-and-run a murder, as it would be extremely difficult to solve and sit on their books as an unsolved case. Also, it might have opened a can of worms about the local drug trade to which they had been turning a blind, bribed eye. But they would have already checked the body shops and the rental car and insurance companies, detective.

[5] The only reason I can imagine for the delay in the memorial service is a legal dispute regarding inheritance among the Lockharts and possibly a slew of unwed mothers. (The fact that I can only think of one reason doesn't mean there aren't 326 other equally valid ones.)

Edited December 20, 2014 by Higgs

[Ellaria]

I've been thinking about the last few minutes of their stories...

 

Alison is packing, Cole comes home, she tells him about the financial situation of the ranch and leaves saying "I don't want to die." Sometime later, Alison is at the train station. She checks her phone and then walks toward the train as it pulls into the station. Cole comes running with his bag and says that he wants to leave with her.

 

Noah leaves his brownstone in Brooklyn, gets on the train, calls Alison and tells her that he left Helen and will arrive in Montauk in three hours. Later, he gets off the train, sees Alison and Cole (without baggage) on the platform. Alison boards the train.

 

When Alison leaves Cole, it is daylight. Where does she go from the moment she walks out until when we see her at the train station? There is at least a 3-hour gap in her story (and the train station isn't that far away). When Noah calls Alison from the train, it is already dark. Alison made the decision to leave before hearing from Noah. Presumably, she received Noah's call three hours before we see her check her phone.  What was she checking on her phone: a text message (from Noah?), the time, a voice mail message? 

 

What explains the discrepancy in the existence of Cole's baggage? He either had a bag or did not...and that speaks greatly to his intent and his desire to continue a life with Alison.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[Higgs]

Cole comes running with his bag and says that he wants to leave with her.

Noah leaves his brownstone in Brooklyn, gets on the train, calls Alison and tells her that he left Helen and will arrive in Montauk in three hours. Later, he gets off the train, sees Alison and Cole (without baggage) on the platform. Alison boards the train.

When Alison leaves Cole, it is daylight. Where does she go from the moment she walks out until when we see her at the train station? There is at least a 3-hour gap in her story (and the train station isn't that far away).

What explains the discrepancy in the existence of Cole's baggage? He either had a bag or did not...and that speaks greatly to his intent and his desire to continue a life with Alison.

The train station isn't far away, but the train is. On weekdays, late in the year, there is no train (LIRR) out of Montauk between 2:30 and 10:30 PM.

(Here's the schedule: http://web.mta.info/lirr/Timetable/Branch/MontaukBranch.pdf)

Having decided to leave, Alison felt more comfortable waiting alone at the train station, for however long, than enduring the unbearable heartache and tension of being with Cole.

Alison gets on the train carrying both the bag she was seen packing and the one Cole brought to the station. Cole was helping her to leave him, if that's what she wanted and needed, as I suggested elsewhere an extraordinarily unselfish husband would. Cole was essentially saying he would do anything for Alison, but what he wanted was for them to go back home to make proper arrangements to leave Montauk together.

Alison and Cole love each other, as do Helen and Noah. But Alison needs to leave to atone for Gabriel's death, and Noah needs to leave to atone for taking Bruce's money. There are no heroes or villains here.

The scene at the train station was my favorite of the entire series, fraught with tension and uncertainty. (A train station can be an extremely dangerous place for a distraught, depressed heroine. One just never knows what her next step might be.) It would have made a fitting, cliff-hanger ending to S1, with the cuckolded, yet still-loving husband and hopeful suitor both abandoned by an independent woman exercizing her new-found strength. It needed only an operatic trio by Mozart or Verdi to make it sublime.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Higgs

[Ellaria]

The train station isn't far away, but the train is. On weekdays, late in the year, there is no train (LIRR) out of Montauk between 2:30 and 10:30 PM.

(Here's the schedule: http://web.mta.info/lirr/Timetable/Branch/MontaukBranch.pdf).

Sure - that explains one scenario, not all of them.

You know that your post is your perspective only and is not necessarily what may have happened, right?

Edited December 21, 2014 by Ellaria Sand

[Boundary]

[2] Noah would thus have been brought in for questioning whether or not he had been at the party. (I don't remember where it's shown he was.)

[3] If Alison had brought Noah along, why would the detective, who would have heard that from other guests, as he had about the affair, (seemingly) never have asked them to describe their interactions with each other following that first summer?

 

Detective: Where were you staying that night?

Alison: I told you

D: You drove back to the city?

A: Yeah, that's right.

 

I have been doing a rewatch and the benefit of that is, with a tightly written show like this one, we can put evidence side-by-side and try to make sense of it. It's always been obvious that Detective Jeffries' investigation is trying to connect Noah to the The End. I also noticed that he is also trying to connect Alison to the same incident. The wedding didn't take place at The End as I've always assumed. It was from the wedding, on his way to The End, that Scotty met his demise. Twice Jeffries pointedly asked Alison where she stayed that night. The first time is the episode 2 exchange above.

 

The second time is in episode 5 as Alison's leaving and her answer was "..., we drove back to the city". If "we" in Alison's statement refers to Noah, then evidence of Noah staying overnight at The End catches Alison on a lie too. The "you" in 'where were you staying that night?' could be a plural reference. In fact, it's possible Alison co-ops Noah into the "only locals at the wedding" exchange that takes place right before. In episode 3 the wedding comes up again:

 

Detective: Sounds like Oscar had a temper on him.

Alison: The worst.

D: And there was no love lost between him and the Lockharts?

A: That's an understatement.

D: So why was he invited to the wedding?

A: You don't understand this town, Detective. We're like family here, we may fight, we may hurt each other but when it really counts, we show up, weddings, funerals, no matter what.

D: I suppose that explains why you were there.

A: Is there anything else you need me for, Detective? I really have to get going.

 

It's a Lockhart wedding, and this detective doesn't understand why Oscar could be invited. Ditto for Alison (which proves a divorce/separation) and maybe Noah by extension. If Alison's explanation that everyone is like family, who fight but ultimately support each other when it matters, holds any water then that might explain why the Lockharts might accept Noah's presence as well, if he came on Alison's arm. In light of this, my spec that Noah's presence at the party caused Scotty and the Lockharts to flip doesn't make sense anymore, as well as the Lockharts covering up Noah's presence. But it doesn't prove that Noah was at the party. And Alison/Noah have lied to the detective before.

 

Noah's presence doesn't need covering up, if he was there. Alison would freely admit to it. In episode 9, during the memorial service the detective looks intently at Alison and seems to get an epiphany, which leads him to check cancelled bookings at The End. Maybe he starts believing Alison, after all, that they drove back to the city? But how would that signify guilt? My head hurts.

[Bcharmer]

What makes my head hurt is how they are talking about a "party" sometimes, and a "wedding" other times. Are we even sure that these aren't two different events? It really threw me during the second episode, where the whole damn episode revolved around the Butler's party.  Alison asked the detective if he's questioning everyone who was at the party that night, and the comment that only locals were at the party, etc. Naturally, some of us (well, me) assumed at first it was the Butler's party being referred to. But no, it was some party in the future. Then they tossed out "wedding."   Would you call a wedding, or even a wedding reception, a party? Not sure I would. So, that's kind of confusing.

[Boundary]

Good point but after playing those scenes back to back, it's clear the context refers to the same thing. A wedding party? Could that work? I just need more information to get my bearings. Overthinking this in an attempt to suss out some brilliant theory has only resulted in more confusion, to be honest. lol

[crashdown]

I think the season's going to end with Noah's being arrested for the murder of Scotty.

 

 

 

Ahem! :-)

[Pallas]

Well done!

 

The party at The End: I'm guessing it was a private party -- maybe just the wedding party; maybe just the Lockharts -- held after the reception.  And I think the wedding was Cole's (as Blakeston suggested several weeks ago), and that his bride was Phoebe.  

 

[crashdown]

I have been doing a rewatch and the benefit of that is, with a tightly written show like this one, we can put evidence side-by-side and try to make sense of it. It's always been obvious that Detective Jeffries' investigation is trying to connect Noah to the The End. I also noticed that he is also trying to connect Alison to the same incident.

 

 

I'm looking forward to doing my own rewatch, with the new benefit of hindsight.  But what really seems odd to me now is why Noah lied about EVER being at The End.  I can see lying about it around the time it would connect directly to Scotty's death, but why the blanket lie?  The affair was in the past, and Noah and Allison are together now.  The fact that they had an affair was undisputed.  What would be so bad about saying that some of that affair took place at The End?  I assume we'll find out eventually why it WOULD have been "so bad," but right now, it appears to be somewhat mysterious.

 

The fact that Noah was arrested tells me that he's definitely not the killer, although (as it was in The Killing) he's probably mixed up with it without actually having DONE it.  Whatever the case, I'm certainly interested enough to be sorry that next season is probably nine months away.

[Boundary]

Well done!

 

The party at The End: I'm guessing it was a private party -- maybe just the wedding party; maybe just the Lockharts -- held after the reception.  And I think the wedding was Cole's (as Blakeston suggested several weeks ago), and that his bride was Phoebe.  

 

Or that lady from the pilot, Jocelyn.

 

 What would be so bad about saying that some of that affair took place at The End?  I assume we'll find out eventually why it WOULD have been "so bad," but right now, it appears to be somewhat mysterious.

 

Exactly. We know Alison is incredibly nervous around the detective, I have no doubt that whatever Noah's been arrested for he didn't do it but he is covering for Alison. In fact, on my rewatch I noticed that Alison's demeanour towards Scotty was never positive right from the start. She also claimed to the detective that Scotty and Oscar were friends but that's not true based on what we've seen. I don't know why Alison would run down Scotty, I don't even know if she did it. We've got a few months to figure it out.