S21.E08: Noa Tishby; Andrew Yang; Elissa Slotkin

[tessaray]

Air Date: March 17, 2023

Bill’s guests are Noa Tishby, Andrew Yang, and Rep. Elissa Slotkin.

[aghst]

Wow that pro-Israel guest, she may oppose Netanyahu trying to weaken their Supreme Court but she sounds like him otherwise when it comes to Palestinians and the settlers.  Israel is "not perfect."  Since the Intifadas -- first was in the late '80s, early '90s and the second was from 2001-2005 -- which side has lost more civilians the Israelis or the Palestinians?

The settlers go around like vigilantes looking for random Palestinians to beat up or kill, under the protection of the IDF.

Recently, an IDF soldier executed a Palestinian journalist.

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/05/1121119558/israeli-army-says-a-soldier-likely-killed-a-palestinian-american-journalist

"Not perfect" but it's the only democracy in the Middle East ...🙄

Then she blathers on about how the Palestinian Authority has given $300 million to suicide bombers.  Over what time frame, probably decades because they are not that rich.  If we did go to Gaza, we could see how poor they are.

Israel built a wall and for those Palestinian workers who have to enter to do low-skilled labor -- construction, domestic help, etc. -- it's a serious hassle.  The tradition of apartheid is alive and well.

HBO aired a very good show called Our Boys, created by an Israeli writer, about settlers kidnapping and killing an innocent Palestinian boy, shows what life is like out in the settlements and nearby Palestinian villages.

Of course for Bill, it's just enough that Israel is the only democracy and all the neighboring Arab countries are against them.  Except Israel is the only nuclear power and basically the only superpower in the region.

BTW the protests they were discussing, Israeli reservists are threatening not to serve because of this controversy, which would hurt their security.

 

Bill is not going to go too hard at guests but it's good to see him calling Yang on his third-party BS.  Maybe he learned a lesson from supporting Nader in 2000.

Oh and blaming inflation on the pandemic relief, because both Trump and Biden gave cash to people and businesses to keep the economy up.  Well inflation is a GLOBAL problem right now.  In fact it's much higher in Europe and really out of control in developing countries, including South America.

They didn't rain buckets of cash on their citizens like the US did.  EU gave some relief but nothing like the US.

So why is their inflation so much higher?  Well the war and the shutdown of China until a few months ago caused supply chain shortages and people kept paying higher prices for them.  Then also the labor shortages, there are over 10 million job openings -- job growth is still strong, you think keeping the economy afloat with money had something to do with that? -- right now and just half the number of job seekers.

Restaurants and other retail businesses can't operate like they did before the pandemic because a lot of front line workers quit or traded up jobs and while these businesses raised wages, they don't find workers as easily, because a lot of people are STILL sick, either Long Covid or an infection causes them to call in sick.  Over a million people called in sick every month of 2022, which is like double the normal levels.

So supply chain and worker shortages are common to all countries, whether they gave cash to their citizens and small businesses or not.  But US was most generous and yet we have lower inflation than any other industrialized or developing country.

Bill in his old age is like Ronald Reagan, cranky about government handouts and waste.  Sure there's waste but in the early months of the pandemic, stock market was plunging and businesses were shut down and then going out of business.  That is why Trump and the Republicans supported these aid programs, because in an election year, he didn't want the economy to crash.  Also the way they administrated the program they rewarded cronies and wasted a lot of money through incompetence and being duped by wide scale fraud.

You know the last thing the Republicans wanted to do was give money to people who are poor or working class, yet they did it for their own political reasons and of course the well-off benefitted more from these programs.

 

BTW I noticed the new opening graphics, shows a collage of things Bill always talks about like a smart phone with a face with Xs for eyes showing how bad phones are for mental health and then some funnel dropping tons of syringes and fast food.  You know, because fructose corn syrup is the worst and we're too fat, which is why people succumbed to covid, which otherwise is okay.

Took a shot at masks of course during New Rules.

 

[Welshman in Ca]

What he knows about N. Ireland could be written on the back of a postage stamp with room to spare.

[realityplease]

On 3/18/2023 at 8:54 AM, aghst said:

Wow that pro-Israel guest, she may oppose Netanyahu trying to weaken their Supreme Court but she sounds like him otherwise when it comes to Palestinians and the settlers.  Israel is "not perfect."  Since the Intifadas -- first was in the late '80s, early '90s and the second was from 2001-2005 -- which side has lost more civilians the Israelis or the Palestinians?

The settlers go around like vigilantes looking for random Palestinians to beat up or kill, under the protection of the IDF. Recently, an IDF soldier executed a Palestinian journalist. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/05/1121119558/israeli-army-says-a-soldier-likely-killed-a-palestinian-american-journalist

"Not perfect" but it's the only democracy in the Middle East ...🙄

Then she blathers on about how the Palestinian Authority has given $300 million to suicide bombers.  Over what time frame, probably decades because they are not that rich.  If we did go to Gaza, we could see how poor they are.

Israel built a wall and for those Palestinian workers who have to enter to do low-skilled labor -- construction, domestic help, etc. -- it's a serious hassle.  The tradition of apartheid is alive and well.

The atrocities take place on both sides.  BOTH sides kill, injure & maim.  In 2022 (the time-frame of your NPR article about the killing of a Palestinian journalist - & a tragedy to be sure), Al Jazeera also reported that 14 Israelis were killed, including 3 policemen. Also recently, the killing of an American student.  And other Palestinian fatalities in addition to the journalist. Both sides are suffering casualties to people beloved by friends, families - caused by vigilantes on BOTH sides to the other side.   

Killing is not like an election. It doesn't matter which side lost more or fewer civilians. We didn't compare the losses of the Allied & American soldiers vs. the losses of German soldiers vs. the loss of 6 million Jews during World War II in order to declare a winner.  No one measured the number of Japanese losses vs. American losses to determine a winner there.  A nuclear bomb, determined the end of that war.  Perceived ability & strength mattered in that case, not comparing actual numbers.

Yes, Israel built a wall.  Yes, it's a hassle, and largely effective, but at times, Palestinians have tunneled under it to attack. A wall is a hideous reminder of separation but it's purpose, & how well it works, debatable.  The low-skilled are not the only ones who enter through it.  Per a Sixty Minutes segment, Palestinians who seek medical treatment by Israeli doctors (otherwise unavailable to them on their side) use it, as well as many others.

Tishby's point, which you do not address, was that the Israelis have, many times, offered the Palestinians a way forward.  According to Tishby, the Palestinians do not want compromise, but only want Israel's retreat & to drive them into the sea.  But as with many fraught negotiations, BOTH sides have likely resisted various points of agreement.  I'm no expert, but at least aware of the genesis of the issues & they go WAY further back than the '80's that you cite.  Israel became a state in 1948 & took parts of the Gaza/West Bank after the 6-Day War in 1967.  When the Palestinians attacked, Israel smacked back. (What were they supposed to do, let them decimate them?) In smacking back, they took parts of the Gaza/West Bank, put settlements on it, some there over 50 years. That's the result & inequity of waging war.  It's not a simple driveway dispute.  A solution has proved difficult & to date compromise impossible. It's a knotty issue - and there's arguments on both sides. Apartheid isn't it - but to get to a 2-state solution there has to be compromise.

Edited March 19, 2023 by realityplease

[aghst]

13 minutes ago, realityplease said:

 

Killing is not like an election. It doesn't matter which side lost more or fewer civilians. We didn't compare the losses of the Allied & American soldiers vs. the losses of German soldiers vs. the loss of 6 million Jews during World War II in order to declare a winner.  No one measured the number of Japanese losses vs. American losses to determine a winner there.  A nuclear bomb, determined the end of that war.  Perceived ability & strength mattered in that case, not comparing actual numbers.

 

I disagree.

And if Palestinians kill settlers, there are gangs of settlers looking to beat up and kill any Palestinians they can find.  It's not an eye for an eye, it's more like an eye for dozens of eyes.

The settlers are just more emboldened with this right-wing coalition, some of whom are ministers saying they should take over all the West Bank, not just have settlements.

If the Palestinians killed many Israelis, it would be the IDF going into those Palestinian villages, not with clubs and small arms, but with rockets, armored vehicles and bulldozers.

You want to overlook the ratio between both sides because it's not even close.

 

 

[realityplease]

36 minutes ago, aghst said:

I disagree.

And if Palestinians kill settlers, there are gangs of settlers looking to beat up and kill any Palestinians they can find.  It's not an eye for an eye, it's more like an eye for dozens of eyes.

The settlers are just more emboldened with this right-wing coalition, some of whom are ministers saying they should take over all the West Bank, not just have settlements.

If the Palestinians killed many Israelis, it would be the IDF going into those Palestinian villages, not with clubs and small arms, but with rockets, armored vehicles and bulldozers.

You want to overlook the ratio between both sides because it's not even close.

 

 

I didn't expect agreement & why it's good to have forums where opinions can be aired.

I'm not saying civilian deaths don't matter.  Not at all.  But am saying there's no winner or loser based on sheer numbers, therefore, it's ultimately not a measure of success which side lost more or fewer. 

If Palestinians kill settlers, do the Palestinians not expect retaliation?  Because I bet they do. Just as when Israelis kill Palestinians, there's gonna be retaliation.  That's why war is dumb - but it happens when people can't compromise & engaged in a tit for tat or an escalation.  I don't subscribe to your theory of "gangs of settlers looking to beat up and kill any Palestinians they can find."  That's propaganda Kool-aid.  If true, there'd be much more daily reporting on many more fatalities than is the case.  Though any numbers on either side is abhorrent. 

And as to your notion that "If Palestinians killed many Israelis". . . the Israelis would be coming not with clubs & small arms but with rockets, armored vehicles & bulldozers." Well, the Palestinians have killed Israelis & there's no rule about the type of arms or type of retaliation one engages in. Sometimes it's a result of someone taking a thoughtful view of what happened & why, sometimes a reflex.  Another reason why war is dumb.  Expecting deaths to be equal on the two sides is not something that's going to happen.

Edited March 18, 2023 by realityplease

[The Solution]

Another good episode. Fair presentation of both sides discussed on all issues and thoughtfulness/provocation on Bill's part. This is why I originally started watching his shows years ago.

[Tara]

Noa is full of shit. I raised my family in Rockland County, NY, and every Jewish person announced they were Jewish within 5 minutes of meeting them. And that was over 30 years ago. No one was ashamed of who they were, whether it be Jewish or anything else.

I could not agree more with Andrew Yang in that we need a viable third party in this country, Elissa’s opinion on that — that she’s afraid we would be turning the country over to, I can’t even describe what she was saying, is absurd. The Dems and Repubs are destroying this country. 😀

Edited March 18, 2023 by Tara

[aghst]

1 hour ago, realityplease said:

I didn't expect agreement & why it's good to have forums where opinions can be aired.

I'm not saying civilian deaths don't matter.  Not at all.  But am saying there's no winner or loser based on sheer numbers, therefore, it's ultimately not a measure of success which side lost more or fewer. 

If Palestinians kill settlers, do the Palestinians not expect retaliation?  Because I bet they do. Just as when Israelis kill Palestinians, there's gonna be retaliation.  That's why war is dumb - but it happens when people can't compromise & engaged in a tit for tat or an escalation.  I don't subscribe to your theory of "gangs of settlers looking to beat up and kill any Palestinians they can find."  That's propaganda Kool-aid.  If true, there'd be much more daily reporting on many more fatalities than is the case.  Though any numbers on either side is abhorrent. 

And as to your notion that "If Palestinians killed many Israelis". . . the Israelis would be coming not with clubs & small arms but with rockets, armored vehicles & bulldozers." Well, the Palestinians have killed Israelis & there's no rule about the type of arms or type of retaliation one engages in. Sometimes it's a result of someone taking a thoughtful view of what happened & why, sometimes a reflex.  Another reason why war is dumb.  Expecting deaths to be equal on the two sides is not something that's going to happen.

Russians and Ukrainians are killing each other in high numbers now.

If Putin escalated and dropped tactical nukes on Ukrainian positions, the killing ratio would swing big in the Russians favor, possibly hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians killed per Russian soldier killed.

Nobody would look on that as acceptable outside of Putin and Russian nationalists.

It would be disproportionate and it might escalate to direct NATO involvement.

So speaking of disproportionate violence, that is what you have between Israelis and Palestinians, the ratios are orders of magnitude more Palestinians killed than Israelis.  Israel has big weapons, Palestinians have maybe a few stray guns.  Do they even do suicide bombings?  At least those aren't being reported here.

There isn't some Palestinian army.  No Palestinian policemen in riot gear with armored vehicles or SWAT type of units.  Nothing like what happened in Ferguson, MO after Michael Brown was shot and there were protests and riots and militarized police units moved in.

It's so ridiculously one-sided, pulling a "both sides" claim about the Palestinians vs. Israelis is just not honest.

Edited March 18, 2023 by aghst

[realityplease]

 

 

 

18 hours ago, aghst said:

Russians and Ukrainians are killing each other in high numbers now. If Putin escalated and dropped tactical nukes on Ukrainian positions, the killing ratio would swing big in the Russians favor, possibly hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians killed per Russian soldier killed. Nobody would look on that as acceptable outside of Putin and Russian nationalists. It would be disproportionate and it might escalate to direct NATO involvement.

So speaking of disproportionate violence, that is what you have between Israelis and Palestinians, the ratios are orders of magnitude more Palestinians killed than Israelis.  Israel has big weapons, Palestinians have maybe a few stray guns.  Do they even do suicide bombings?  At least those aren't being reported here.
 

In 2022, the number of Palestinians killed was 144.  Not nearly the same situation as an estimated 200,000 Russian & 100,000 Ukrainian fatalities in the Russian/Ukrainian situation per a UK report. (Tho I've seen numbers as low as 60,000 Russians & 16,000 Ukrainians.) But whatever, comparing the numbers to the Russian/Ukrainian situation is a false equivalence and comparing numbers at all, as I already said for the reasons stated, is not a measure of success or failure.  

You said, "Palestinians only have a few 'stray guns" and asked, "Do they even do suicide bombings?"  The answer is Yes. MANY Palestinian suicide bombings have been launched against Israeli civilians - for decades.  And reported here.  (But maybe not caught your attention.) Between 1993-1995, there were 14 Palestinian suicide bombings alone, killing 85 people, injuring hundreds.  Bombings declined somewhat by 2008, but not eliminated. Between 2016 & 2021 alone, there were dozens of attacks on Israeli school buses & businesses, each killing several & injuring dozens.  In May, 2001, a Palestinian suicide attack killed 5 with 100 injured. 

Many of the suicide bombers are funded by Hamas & the Islamic Jihad, terrorists groups that claimed responsibility for the attacks or praised the bombers. These groups receive funding from many sources.  Palestinians may be poor - but these groups, funded by those in the Arab Republic & others - are not.  And also not doing squat about the quality of life of the Palestinians - their money goes toward wiping out the Israelis. Tishby mentioned $300 million provided to Palestinian bombers.  It's not the poor that raised it - & you're right to question that.  But you're missing the reality that terrorists groups are providing the money & using the poor to serve as their suicide bombers. 

Edited March 19, 2023 by realityplease

[aghst]

I'm talking about RECENT or CURRENT suicide bombings.

Because I brought up that Israel built a wall and severely controls entry and exit from Palestinian villages into Israel proper, making it a hardship for many Palestinians who want to just work and take care of their families.

So I assume suicide bombings are not occurring now, because every Palestinian or virtually every one of them is searched every day.  And if they were, we'd be hearing about them, with politicians like Bibi wailing about pizza parlors with children being blown up.  That happened once or twice decades ago but isn't happening now.

Yes it's not a war situation but I only mentioned the Ukraine war because you said casualty ratios don't matter and that's clearly not true in war, especially if one side has WMDs like nuclear, chemical or biological weapons.  Any side which uses such weapons are condemned universally.

Not that cluster bombs and rockets can't inflict many casualties but WMDs kill more people.

In any event, Israelis have way more weapons, like military grade rifles for the IDF soldiers.  I don't know what kind of arms the settlers are allowed to possess but they have more resources to acquire them.

I don't know the source for your claim of 144 Palestinian civilians killed in the clashes last year.  Even if true, the Israeli civilians killed would be a far smaller number.  That is my point, that to pretend both sides are killing each other in comparable numbers gives a false picture of what's going on over there.

[realityplease]

3 hours ago, Tara said:

Noa is full of shit. I raised my family in Rockland County, NY, and every Jewish person announced they were Jewish within 5 minutes of meeting them. And that was over 30 years ago. No one was ashamed of who they were, whether it be Jewish or anything else.

I could not agree more with Andrew Yang in that we need a viable third party in this country, Elissa’s opinion on that — that she’s afraid we would be turning the country over to, I can’t even describe what she was saying, is absurd. The Dems and Repubs are destroying this country. 😀

The situation over 30 years ago (when you raised your family) is quite different than TODAY.  As Bill mentioned, the number of instances of public anti-semitism & hate crimes in America & around the world is rising dramatically.  I was quite shocked, even in 2000, to see police cars stationed in front of European synogogues & a boldly painted "Mort au Juif" (death to Jews) on a Parisian public park wall.  Anti-semitism didn't seem to me to be as blatant in America.  But with the killing of 11 at the Tree of Life synogogue in Pittsburgh, a recent spate of swastikas on buildings & flyers being distributed in Beverly Hills, a man attacked on his way to prayer a few weeks ago in W. Los Angeles, Kanye West proclaiming death to Jews & supporters hoisting signs to support him over the 405 freeway - it's not as welcoming a world to Jews as it might have been over 30 years ago. The Holocaust was remembered by greater percentages then - but as the last living survivors die out, Holocaust denial is on the rise.

Probably an overstatement to say "NO ONE was ashamed of who they were, whether it be Jewish or anything else" back then.  Maybe your neighborhood was lucky to escape any overt signs of discrimination. Because there WAS some discrimination (overt or covert) by some in all parts of the country against a variety of OTHERs - even 30 years ago.  Today, the numbers suggest it's escalated as to some groups. It doesn't mean hiding who you are - but maybe, if you're Jewish, being less inclined to wear a Star of David or something that might make you a target. That's all Noa was saying.  

As for a viable third party.  Has to be MORE than viable - otherwise it just takes votes away.  Ralph Nader & those that supported him learned that the hard way.  Who doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

Edited March 19, 2023 by realityplease

[realityplease]

16 hours ago, aghst said:

I'm talking about RECENT or CURRENT suicide bombings.

Because I brought up that Israel built a wall and severely controls entry and exit from Palestinian villages into Israel proper, making it a hardship for many Palestinians who want to just work and take care of their families.

So I assume suicide bombings are not occurring now, because every Palestinian or virtually every one of them is searched every day.  And if they were, we'd be hearing about them, with politicians like Bibi wailing about pizza parlors with children being blown up.  That happened once or twice decades ago but isn't happening now.

 

There have been recent bombings.  Dozens from 2016-2021.  And NPR (who you cited in your initial post) on November 23, 2022, reported bombings at 2 bus stops, killing 2 & injuring 22.  Pretty recent.  I also mentioned a 2021 suicide bombing above.  (As for my source for the number of Palestinians killed in 2022: NPR reported 150 Palestinians killed in 2022. Washington Post reported 144 in 2022. I got 146 killed in 2022 from Al Jazeera.)   

There have also been bombings by Palestinians who tunnel under the Wall. You can't search someone hidden many feet below you but you CAN ensure those who pass through (like those who pass through US/Mexico & US/Canada borders) are safe.  After a number of bombings, tunnels were found & destroyed.  But maybe not all.  The bombing weren't just "once or twice decades ago" but dozens & dozens over past decades.  Threatened anew.  And recently enough for Bibi to talk about it & view it as a renewed threat.

Exit/entry "hardship" is a necessary evil -  even if not foolproof.  It significantly lowered the initial spate of bombings though it did not eliminate them by any means.  Heck - it takes time to go through TSA at the airports here, but we're required to do it. Mexican workers who live in Mexico but work in San Diego have to go through border checks to enter the US.  They do it.  Those in San Diego who have business in Tijuana, Tecate or elsewhere do it to enter Mexico. 

I dunno.  Pizza parlors with children being blown up seems like a pretty good reason to wail.  Average citizens being targeted while on school buses or just going about their business - not good on either side.  Yes, precautions can be burdensome.  But if necessary to prevent the wholesale slaughter of many, than required.

Edited March 19, 2023 by realityplease

[AgentRXS]

Please remember to stay on topic in regards to what was discussed on the show. Thanks.

[heatherchandler]

I love Andrew Yang, and his ability to answer the questions Elissa Slotkin wouldn’t answer.  

Eta- other than him saying JB Pritzker should run for President.  Dear god no.

Edited March 20, 2023 by heatherchandler

[ApocalypseThen]

I really enjoyed this episode. Even though I like Andrew Yang, Bill's mocking of his "Forward" party's fluff was the best part of the episode for me. Yang has really dropped the ball with his "party about nothing" that has no clear ideology or policies. I'm not against third parties but if this is the best anyone can come up with then there's no point in having them.

I don't know if anyone else picked up on this but it seemed that Bill's attitude toward Yang changed the moment Yang made a joke about Bill being the only one on the panel who could remember stuff that happened in the 70s. You could see Bill was fuming about that and it was shortly after that he started referring to all that fluff from Yang's website. Bill's battle against "ageism" continues.  Either way, credit to Bill for highlighting that!

On the other hand, I wish more time had been devoted to Bill's claims regarding poverty. Bill was spewing the typical Reason Magazine libertarian nonsense akin to "Why are poor people complaining if they have a cell phone and can buy all this cheap stuff nowadays?". It's true that a lot of progress has been made in terms of how poor people live these days compared to the 20th century and before that, but that does not mean that the decline of the middle class and the current rate of poverty in the US is acceptable. 

 

[aghst]

Yang just doesn't want to give up his 15 minutes.

After failing in the NYC mayor's race, he realized his chances in the Democratic party were exhausted so now third party.

What's his angle in all this?  He wants to win a high-profile post of some kind?  Does that benefit him financially or just have developed a taste for fame?

[Hanahope]

I get the desire for a third party.  unfortunately our particular form of government doesn't really lend itself to a viable third party, with the whole need for 270 electoral votes for president and winner take all in most states.  other countries elect their leader in different ways, with pro-rata votes, which allow for viable third and fourth parties.  Slotkin is 100% correct. All Yang's party is doing is trying to split the democratic party (like the green party did in 2000 and likely did in 2016) and make it easier for the gop to get those 270 electoral votes.

 

[realityplease]

5 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I get the desire for a third party.  unfortunately our particular form of government doesn't really lend itself to a viable third party, with the whole need for 270 electoral votes for president and winner take all in most states.  other countries elect their leader in different ways, with pro-rata votes, which allow for viable third and fourth parties.  Slotkin is 100% correct. All Yang's party is doing is trying to split the democratic party (like the green party did in 2000 and likely did in 2016) and make it easier for the gop to get those 270 electoral votes.

I don't know if Yang's party is "trying" to split the Dem vote but in actuality, that's what it WILL do.  And I think you're right - our electoral vote system just doesn't lend itself to that.  By slicing off any of the Dem vote (the likely source of Yang supporters) in these days of very narrow margins, it only makes it easier to hand a victory to the GOP.  

I like Yang but he missed a good opportunity to flesh out his party's platform.  He wants to be a pragmatic good guy, but, but if he screws the election for the Dems, his place in history will be down with Nader - well-intentioned but misguided - if not blamed for any loss.  Wish he'd shown more reason for the public to get behind him, but absent clearer & more fleshed out goals and analysis, very hard for us to see where he's going.

8 hours ago, ApocalypseThen said:

I wish more time had been devoted to Bill's claims regarding poverty. Bill was spewing the typical Reason Magazine libertarian nonsense akin to "Why are poor people complaining if they have a cell phone and can buy all this cheap stuff nowadays?". It's true that a lot of progress has been made in terms of how poor people live these days compared to the 20th century and before that, but that does not mean that the decline of the middle class and the current rate of poverty in the US is acceptable. 

 

There was a lot to unpack on this show. I, too, wish more time had been spent to discuss why Bill scoffed at the poor having cell phones.  Yes, phones can be time-wasting, but also a necessity these days for access to information, communication, safety & a lifeline to people, services, etc.  Bill probably thinks the poor shouldn't complain because heck, they can't be THAT poor if they have money to waste on big screen TVs or the latest phone or shiny things.  But each person's circumstances & backstory varies & can change at a moment's notice.  People decide for themselves what, when & how they spend. If the ax falls on them for bad decisions, maybe they learn the hard way or never learn or can't be helped.  Not for me to judge what people choose to pay for or spend on.  (That's why there's bankruptcy courts.)  But Bill is very judgy - & I too wish he'd gotten deeper into that discussion.     

Edited March 21, 2023 by realityplease