Lady Edith: Sex and the Single Girl

[DianeDobbler]

I was just looking at the last episode and it’s annoying as hell how Mary is protected from what she did to Edith. Robert finds out Mary dropped the bomb about Marigold, but Tom says “accident” although he knows it damn well wasn’t, and it’s on Robert to be suspicious about Mary’s intentions. Then it appears Cora, Robert and Rosemond are about to call Mary to account when boom – interrupted by Carson with news about Barrow, and after that Mary gets to hide behind George and a visit to the stricken butler. They just entirely skipped the real fallout, which is not from Edith, and not from Tom, but from her parents. I’m glad Edith pulled herself together as she always does, and got out of there. For the supposedly mopey sister, she gets on with things much faster than Mary. She’s learned to accept not getting what she wants, and it’s made her the opposite of mopey.

[ZoloftBlob]

It's like I said in an earlier post, Robert is not without ways to make it clear to Mary that she's done a bad thing to her sister. He may not be able to deny her supper or send her to her room, but he could sit her down and explain that Downton is his house until he dies and that means Mary can learn to start acting decently towards her sister or find herself another place to live since she's an adult who can't be sent to her room, or paddled over his knee.

 

He doesn't even have to go that far. (I'm not so unrealistic as to think JF would ever write that). A simple, cutting "I'm disappointed in you and I accept that you're a cruel callous disappoint because I failed you as a parent" would have been enough for me.

[Roseanna]

DianeDobbler and ZoloftBlob, Robert showed earlier that he disapproved Mary's behavior ("this was rude even from you") and Cora warned her of jealousy. In the Crawley family they were strong criticism that would have make anybody but Mary shame.

But there was a simple reason why Tom couldn't tell the truth to Robert: he was only in-law and as such could never criticize Robert's family to him. Besides, it would be like telling tales like children do. As it was, it was much better that he spoke to Mary himself. And because also Edith did, there was no need for scenes where the same matter would have been repeated by Robert.

[Roseanna]

Hecate 7 and Featherhat, I think you forget that DA is a show and not the real life.

If Edith had married Strallan, it would have meant that she would have no development. So SF would have done it only if he wanted Edith out of the show - or Laura wanted to leave.

In order to develop in a drama, people need obstacles, disagreements and even tragedies. There can be no story if people are happy.

[TheGreenKnight]

I don't know, the whole "it's a show" excuse doesn't make Violet, Robert, etc. come across any better, and it doesn't mean Edith liked Strallan any less. I mean, it being a show is the only way I could enjoy some of these characters at all. Someone like Violet or Mary is only entertaining when they aren't real. In real life, they're complete nightmares.

 

Edith was not Charlotte Lucas, who made it explicit she was making the best of her situation, and Strallan was definitely not Mr. Collins.

[Roseanna]

The GreenKnigt, what I mean "it's a show", is that it's a world created by JF and it's he who decides how the characters behave and what happens to them.

Ultimately, it's a question how to make an interesting story. And if Edith had married Strallan, there would be nothing interesting to tell. JF made many mistakes but in this he was right.

[DianeDobbler]

I do not believe people are saying Edith should have married Strallan, rather that the WAY the story was told was extremely poor and made her parents look like horrible people. 

[Roseanna]

DianeDobbler, Cora didn't do anything horrible. Robert was cold towards Strallan but he was much worse towards Tom whom he tried to bribe to leave Sybil, so it wouldn't matter to any other man.

Wouldn't it really be less horrible if Robert and Cora would have pushed Edith to marry any man?

[SusanSunflower]

They humiliated Strallan ... they treated Strallan as if he smelled bad ... somehow Edith marrying him was not something they considered good news.  I don't remember exactly the angle of the sharpest knife ... wasn't it Violet suggesting he was being selfish, that everyone would pity Edith, his future nursemaid? (which played wickedly into his previously acknowledged insecurities). 

Edited November 30, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Also Robert point blank told him to break it off, that he the paterfamilias felt that Strallan should not wed his daughter. I mean, you can't get much more blunt than that.

[Tetraneutron]

I do not believe people are saying Edith should have married Strallan, rather that the WAY the story was told was extremely poor and made her parents look like horrible people. 

This is what's confusing me: people here are saying that the Crawleys treated Edith terribly. They assumed she'd never marry, they laughed about her being Robert and Cora's caretaker. They didn't have any faith in her ability to attract a man, and that makes them bad people. But the same people are also saying that the Crawleys discouraged Strallen, that they made it known they thought Edith could do better than a "cripple" who was "dull as paint" and that they weren't cheerleading for the marriage. So in other words, they supported Edith, had faith in her that she could do better than this perfectly respectable prospect. And that makes them bad people. 

 

But it can't be both. Either Robert and Cora are in the wrong because they don't think Edith will ever marry, or they're wrong because they prevented her from marrying a loser. But both of those can't be true. 

[ZoloftBlob]

If we accept the social views of the times and don't transplant our 21st century views on it, then the Crawleys would much prefer for Edith to marry an older crippled man rather than forever be a failed woman - a woman who doesn't marry can never have children and becomes a dried up spinster. Robert and Cora felt that Anthony, dull as paint as he is - and he really wasn't - was perfectly acceptable to take their soiled daughter Mary off their hands, and didn't protest at all over the possible proposal to Edith in 1914.

 

That's why it's bad writing. Because six years later, with Edith six years older and well past the spoil date, having the same guy show up and still want Edith should be a blessing. Because its six years later and Edith (and Mary frankly) has edged into spinsterhood and there's still this guy willing to marry Edith... who is completely acceptable per the social standards of the time - he has money and position and likes Edith and doesn't appear to have been secretly killing prostitutes in London... and even better, Edith actually likes him as well and *wants* to marry him. And rather than be happy for her, Robert and Violet actively drive this man away.

 

And the end result is not Edith finds happiness, because actually Edith ends up with a married man who dies before they can legitimize their child and that sort of thing while ok now was not winked at back in the day...

[SusanSunflower]

Actually It's worse ... it wasn't Cora and Robert who objected initially ... it was Violet who insisted Robert tell Strallen to break off with Edith (which he did) ... which made Edith miserably unhappy ... and so then Robert -- faced with a heart-broken daughter -- backed-down, allowed them to see each other and -- inevitably -- they became engaged ... it was Violet's angry and disgusted look toward Strallen, in the church as he was about to walk down to apse that made him turn tail and run ... because her very public pursed-lipped disapproval suggested a future of unending slights and asides and chilliness ... 

 

Strallan lost "everything" .... both his bride but also his nearest neighbors as long-term friends ... yes, it was bad bad writing to gin up some "drama" and keep Edith at Downton ... although -- as I've said -- I was hoping for Antony and Edith getting on with their "new life" next door breathing some "fresh air" into the story ... nothing necessarily major, a baby maybe .... some Edith dealiing with Strallen's servants??,  some Strallen/Crawley rivalry/dispute  wrt "new methods" or water right .. I don't know ... something 

Edited November 30, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

Reading especially SusanSunflower's answer I make the conclusion that ultimately it's not what the period demands or whether Crawleys behaved badly towards Strallan or whether the story is bad writing, it is before all what each of us thinks is a good life and a good story.

[TheGreenKnight]

But it can't be both. Either Robert and Cora are in the wrong because they don't think Edith will ever marry, or they're wrong because they prevented her from marrying a loser. But both of those can't be true. 

I agree with ZoloftBob. It can be both, and the reason is bad writing. Ultimately, Edith is the dog to be kicked on this show, so contradicting what the characters have previously stated (that they think Edith will never marry and her prospects are dire) in order to scare off her only suitor and keep her miserable is fair game.

 

Strallan being a loser isn't established. It would help if there were reliable characters that made the case clear in DA, but there's really just Robert/Violet/Mary versus Edith, and those characters have been split that way for nearly the entire series. I don't believe those same characters liked Gregson either and we know Mary didn't like Bertie. If, say, one of the downstairs characters (outside of O'Brien/Thomas) had commented on Strallan negatively, or if Tom, Sibyl, Matthew, or Isobel for instance had been given an aside about him, I might agree with you. There is Cora's mother who points out that he has everything the family should want, but she had been maligned for all her screentime before this and isn't a reliable judge to the audience either.

[Tetraneutron]

But we saw Robert didn't like anyone's suitor, except for Matthew. He didn't like Sir Richard, but neither he nor Mary cared. He didn't like Henry. He REALLY didn't like Tom. He didn't like Gregson and was way more opposed to Gregson being with Edith than he was to Strallen. It's not as though he turned Strallen against Edith to screw Edith. He treated Strallen better than he treated Tom or Gregson, but Tom and Gregson didn't care because they loved Sybil or Edith, and Strallen was just going along with Edith pushing him. And honestly, that's part of why Strallen is a loser. He doesn't love Edith like Gregson did, like Tom loved Sybil, or like any of Mary's boyfriends loved Mary. (Yes, yes, it would have been realistic for Edith and Strallen to recognize this was a marriage of convenience and not really mind, but we're watching a soap opera).

 

And this way it works better for Edith. She now has two love matches, one with an exciting London intellectual and one with a Marquis, both of who were crazy about her. Isn't that better than being Charlotte Lucas?

[Roseanna]

Tetraneutron, Robert began to like Bertie after he became a Marquess. Or rather, he was overjoyed about the idea of Edith becoming a Marchioness. Yet, it was only by accident Bertie got the title.

In the real world, Robert would have known that it wouldn't be possible a woman with a child born outside marriage. But in the show it was the American Cora who doubted the outcome.

Regarding Gregson, Robert stopped to avoid him and said that he had nothing against him, after Gregson beat the man who cheated Robert and others in cards - obviously also Gregson cheated.

[Roseanna]

wonder how Sybil's death influenced on Edith's story. Sybil had been the rebel in the family, or at least the most modern woman: she married only on the basis of love and wanted also after marriage work as a nurse.

If JF wanted to describe the new possibilities for a woman in work and love in the 20ies, Edith was practically the only possibility. Mary had to stay in Downton, and Rose wanted to have only fun.

[Tetraneutron]

Roseanna, I know. My point was Robert didn't chase Strallen away because he didn't want Edith to be happy. Robert was much harder on Tom and Gregson than he was on Strallen, yet Tom and Gregson persevered because they loved their girlfriends and Strallen didn't because it was a relationship of convenience on all sides (and also because they were dynamic characters and Strallen was written to be dull). People here are claiming Edith loved Strallen, which she didn't, and would have been happy with him (only in that she avoided being a spinster). There was no love the way there was later, with Edith and Gregson.

 

I think I'm just confused by the tendency to romanticise Edith's feelings about Strallen just to continue the narrative of Edith being victimised by her cruel family.

 

I don't think Sybil leaving the show really changed much for Edith. It's normal on shows like this to give the underdog a happy ending, to make her right all along. Especially since JF said he relates most to Edith - he wasn't going to have her be the sad mopey loser forever. Besides, I don't really see the character as replacing Sybil. Edith's magazine is about Society Ladies and what they wear. Nothing political. Sybil was all about causes. Although JF really couldn't sustain the characterisation of a sympathetic socialist or revolutionary after Sybil died. All Tom's plots (Edna, Stowell, and of course Sarah Bunting) were about how horrible poor people/socialists are and how nice and benevolent titled landowners are. You have to wonder if he would have kept writing Sybil the same way for siz seasons.

 

And Rose was retconned just as much as Edith. She didn't "just want to have fun" after her first season. She got involved with the Russian refugees and made a responsible, if unconventional, marriage.

[TheGreenKnight]

Roseanna, I know. My point was Robert didn't chase Strallen away because he didn't want Edith to be happy. Robert was much harder on Tom and Gregson than he was on Strallen, yet Tom and Gregson persevered because they loved their girlfriends and Strallen didn't because it was a relationship of convenience on all sides (and also because they were dynamic characters and Strallen was written to be dull). People here are claiming Edith loved Strallen, which she didn't, and would have been happy with him (only in that she avoided being a spinster). There was no love the way there was later, with Edith and Gregson.

Whether or not Strallan loved Edith is questionable, but I'm willing to say he did. That Strallan was written as an insecure character unlike Tom or Gregson doesn't say much about whether he loved her or not. If anything, one could make the argument he rationalized leaving her because he loved her since he was made to think himself selfish for wanting her. Regardless, it wouldn't change the fact that Edith loved him at least.

[SusanSunflower]

I think that given Edith's history of only one "unrequited love" -- i.e. the tragically dead Patrick, betrothed of her sister -- she probably "loved" Strallan as much as she was capable of loving anyone ... certainly she was grateful that he found her amusing, enjoyed her company, and, in fact, having courted her, he was too much of a gentleman to not want to marry her. It would have been ungentlemanly to not propose, and -- god knows -- there are plenty of marriages of convenience or even plenty of "starter" marriages because-all-my-friends-are-getting-married marriages to this day ... 

 

 

 

God has a very big heart, but there is one sin He will not forgive. If a woman calls a man to her bed and he will not go.”
― Nikos Kazantzakis, Zorba the Greek

 

IMHO, the unforgivable "bad writing" was Strallan would never have inflicted such public humiliation on Edith ... ever ... he'd have killed himself first ... and might well have, if he truly believed the marriage was in fact unseemly ... too much of a dutiful "good soldier" to run away like a coward. 

[shipperx]

I think it's easy to get stuck on definitions especially when people aren't agreeing on the definition. Basically 'Edith loved Strallen' could be better meteorites differently by different people just as it can be debated whether it would even require real romantic love to have a successful marriage in that particular context.

Basically it's possible to think that Edith could love Strallen and not be passionately in love with him. It's also possible she thinks she loves him 'enough' to marry him in their society. Robert didn't even love Cora when he married her. Band they fully intended Mary to marry Patrick and it was absolutely clear she was not in love with him.

Edith cared about Strallen. Edith thought she could have a successful marriage and home with Syrallen. It was her choice. And yet Violet and Robert -- for the first time ever-- decided to tinker with Edith's love life after years and years of noticeably not giving the least damn. All of a sudden they d code that despite what Edith was looking forward to they'd be jerks to the fiancé and make him feel bad because out of the blue they decide to notice Edith.

Edith had the right to choose and everyone involved took that from her. Claiming it was 'for her own good' after years of ignoring her and then returning to ignoring her isn't the favor they thought it was. Would Edith prefer a younger man who passionately loved her? Yeah she probably would, she also had practical reasons for believing that the odds were against that happening for her. So rather than allow her to make the best of what she had, they decided to interfere leaving her arguably worse off than she had been before and without their having any plan to make it any better (or expending any energy in helping).

So yeah it was a disservice to interfere.

It wasn't like any of them paid any attention to her situation again until they found out about her love child. They could barely find energy to care (much less comfort) her when her next boyfriend died. Certainly not enough to criticize Mary for two minutes for mocking Edith's grief.

[DianeDobbler]

 

But it can't be both. Either Robert and Cora are in the wrong because they don't think Edith will ever marry, or they're wrong because they prevented her from marrying a loser. But both of those can't be true.

They didn't think she'd ever marry, and predicted she'd be stuck nursing them when they were old. Then along comes Strallan, and they decide she can't marry him. It certainly wasn't because they'd changed their minds about her marriageability. That's exactly what was so rotten about it. It played as if they didn't even expect her to get someone like Strallan, then when there's a Strallan, they chase him off with no hope of her ever getting someone else.

[Roseanna]

DianeBobbler, you forgot the explanation Strallan gave to Edith after interrupting the wedding: "I tried to say no".

Whether he loved her or not, he didn't of his own free will decide to marry her, but she had practically forced him it.I don't think that this is a good basis on the happy marriage.

I am not against a woman being active in courting, but if a man says "no" like Strallan did when Edith visited his home, a woman must respect that and leave him alone. Better still if she understands that if only she is active whereas a man never is, it's a sign that he is not interested (Tom - Miss Bunter).

I don't like men who pursue a woman aggressively, like Talbot did.

In Edith's relationships with Gregson and Bertie, both parties are active and they are as normal a dating as it's possible in the period soap.

[shipperx]

Who on earth forced a grown man into proposing? What was the supposed coercion? She was nice to him? The Crawleys didn't chase him from the house sooner? Seriously, he was an independently wealthy man over 40. His claiming any sort of coercion in the circumstances shown is absurd.

Edited December 1, 2015 by shipperx

[ZoloftBlob]

I don't think Strallan was forced into proposing and I don't think Strallan ever claimed that. I do think Edith was pretty pushy about it and rather aggressively pursued him, especially considering he had his own doubts about his suitability as a husband. In a real world situation, I don't think this would have ever gotten to "leave her at the altar" because I think Strallan would have compromised.

 

By that I mean, I think he loved her, and I think he worried that in marrying, he was holding her back from something better. Had he married her, lets be honest, they would have had as happy a marriage as say Mary and Henry Talbot, and certainly a happier marriage than Mary and Sir Richard (one suitor that Violet and Robert actively endorsed, and another suitor that Violet and Robert openly despised but did NOTHING to interfere with) Where I see Edith and Sir Anthony running into problems is ten years down the road when Anthony is 65 and a lot closer to death and Edith is bored. But... would she be happier with that than with being alone, somehwat stuck at Downton as Mary's pet punching bag and outed by Mary as the illigitmate child bearing slut of the family? Kind of a toss up in my opinion.

[Roseanna]

Shipperx, there was such a thing as gentlemen-like behavior. Especially a kind and decent man like Strallan could get into a situation that he felt that he was bound by his honor or, like Edith's case, tried to oppose but as she didn't accept it, finally capitulated.

ZoloftBolob, I do believe that Edith is thousand times better now as she would have been as Strallan's wife. She is no means struck with Downton but can live in London. She is independent: she has money and work (if she so chooses). She don't have to meet Mary at all if she doesn't want to. Two worthy men has loved her and she has loved them. She has her daughter whom also her parents have accepted.

Before all - she has lived in full and she has developed to a woman whom, whatever misfortunes she may meet, can overcome them.

[SusanSunflower]

and it would have been so simple for Anthony Strallan to admit to Edith that he was the "responsible party" in his first marriage being childless ... and Edith deciding that she wanted children too much to enter into marriage knowing that children would not be forthcoming ... or Strallan could have had a heart attack and died ... (in the church, standing at the altar) ...  Fellowes is such a hack.  It's as if the "story" takes on a life of its own and he is powerless to change its course except by drastic groan-worthy "twists" ... without even a knowing smirk or sense of parody (see Matthew's paralysis miracle). 

Edited December 1, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

SusanSunflower, you remind us that there was no surety that Edith would have got children with Strallan as he had none with his former wife.

However, I don't that that for the story any twist of fate wouldn't do. In this kind of show Edith needed a shock and humiliation in order to get her to forget the conventional dream of marriage as the only career for a woman. In the real life she could have realized it on her own on the basis of her experiences during the war.

[Roseanna]

Edith has grown a lot, but still she has a self-image as "unlucky". Although it is true concerning her past, unfortunately it led he make wrong choices with Bertie.

As Edith saw it, if she told about Marigold, she could loose Bertie. On the other hand, if she didn't tell but he found out the truth, she could loose him anyway. So she postponed the decision but actually chose the latter course.

She didn't see that the options were somewhat different. It was almost inevitable that the truth would be revealed. If it weren't and they married, Edith would living in constant fear of revelation and she couldn't really know if Bertie loved her as she really was.

Therefore, the only real option would be to tell. Of course there was a great possibility that Bertie would abandon her, but there was also the little chance that he wouldn't - and only then she could be sure of his love.

However, I don't blame Edith for bot telling Bertie. Almost anybody would have acted in the same way - ignore the unpleasant truth and hope it just disappears.

At least Edith took the whole responsibility for herself when speaking with her editor. That's a sign of adulthood.

On the other hand, Bertie showed self-righteousness of the same kind than Matthew in the end of S1. A man of real empathy wouldn't have thought less of his own disappointment and more of Edith

[SusanSunflower]

wrt Strallan's fertility -- IRL, this question would have come up ... and I kept expecting it to ... because it would matter to Edith (and could be an insurmountable obstacle and reason for Strallen's sense of inadequacy ...)  I am not saying it would have necessarily been a compelling or determinative plot line ...

 

See also, Strallen could have broken the engagement with Edith in private the night before the service, for instance, or even dragged her out of the church to "jilt" her in the churchyard  ... not the same "shocker" of humiliation for Edith but much more in keeping with the character ...  similarly, and IMHO, more "dramatic" would have been for Edith to have called the whole thing off .... unfortunately Fellowes goes for ridiculously garish (and unlikely) "twists" ... 

[Tetraneutron]

Well, yeah. We're watching a soap opera. It's supposed to be dramatic. If everyone resolved their issues in a mature and private way, there wouldn't be a show. But within the world of the show, Edith never gave Strallen a second thought after being dumped. Because the Crawley's are the main characters and the supporting characters function more as plot devices than anything. This was all part of Edith's story arc about being unappealing and destined for spinsterhood. 

[Roseanna]

Tetraneutron, I agree that the show (also others than DA) needs dramatic turns.

That's why the person can't just do a decision and stick to it. There must be many twists.

That was the main reason to plot of Marigold. Edith wants to make an abortion, but she doesn't. Urged by Rosamund, she leaves the baby in Switzerland, but she can't bear to be apart of her, so she brings her to Drewes. Finally, after Mrs Drewe refuses to have Edith in her home and she learns of Gregson's death, she takes Marigold to herself and leaves for London after which Cora is told by Rosamund and Violet and Edith is persuaded to return to Downton with Marigold.

To us it seems very selfish to change a baby's home and caretaker several times, but one must remember that the modern psychology wasn't known at that time. In addition, Mrs Drewe was as selfish and strangely possessive. She never seemed to care for her three sons, only Marigold. She didn't want share her but have her only for herself. She never seemed to think how Marigold would benefit of Edith's love and interest for she could f.ex. pay her education. Or maybe it was just what Mrs Drewe was afraid of - an educated daughter would live in a different world than she.

In the end, whatever psychological traumas Marigold may have get, Edith could offer education, Drewes didn't. And with education Marigold could become whatever she wanted be.

That's what was in the end decisive for Ethel. Initially she wanted to keep her son, but in the end she understood that with her he would stay at the bottom of society but with his grandparents he would get everything. The crux of the matter isn't that Ethel was more unselfish than Edith, but that she had nothing to offer to her child.

Also that Edith didn't initially tell her parents is due to the conventions of the show. Lies and secrets are needed and their revelation is feared of (cf. Pamuk affair).

Besides, like Tom said, at the time people concealed matters that was considered "shameful". One didn't know what damage lies can bring, and even if one has known, it would be very difficult to act against what the whole society condemned. Before all, it would be harmful also to the child if she would have been known to be born out of wedlock.

[SusanSunflower]

reply to ZoloftBob in "Downton in the media thread wrt Edith) 

You remind me -- Not to mention that for "ousiders" unaware of the interlude in which the Drewes fostered little Marigold, might well know that Edith spent a year in Switzerland (perfecting her French) ... iow, quite likely there would already be whispers that her "adoption" was exactly a inconvenient pregnancy ... particularly since, uh, her column is in a national magazine and she has no public suitors ... She's a successful young woman of a certain age with no suitors (although I seem to remember her being "seen" in public with Gregson, if not romantically linked) who decides to adopt ... oh yeah ... there'd be rumors.... and pointed questions about day trips taken and/not taken in Switzerland and lady friends ...

A young woman in her 30's simply would not ruin her marriage prospects by adopting a stranger's child ... (as I argued at the time, Marigold should have been the orphan of some very close friend, if only Edith had one).

 

speaking of rumors -- It's really striking how much everyone worried about Mary and Pamuk ... Edith gets an exciting job, her boss is her champion, he goes to Germany and disappears -- presumed dead ... she disappears to Switzerland for a year and ... on return (or 6 months later) adopts a farming couple's foster child ... none of Gregson's friends noticed?

Edited December 6, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Dejana]

Bringing over a comment from the media thread:

 

It's also a lie about Edith having slept with a man outside of marriage and frankly Mary was pretty lucky that Matthew's reaction to her having sex outside of marriage was "Sex with the turk? Oh Mary, marry me!" because that was a pretty anachronistic reaction for a man of the 1920s to have. If Bertie backs away from Edith... there is a point where he does have reason. I mean, as it is, Matthew catches crap for being Mary's doormat and having a blithe "whatever" reaction to her sleeping with another man. Bertie has been lied to about two pretty significant things by Edith - that she isn't a virgin and that her ward is actually her illegitimate child with another man, and if Mary hadn't decided to take Edith down a peg, Bertie would have married Edith without being told the truth. There's more than just "well, you're just a small minded prig if you let such little things bother you" - even if the servants don't spread the secret around, this is still an era where Bertie would be affected and thought less of for marrying a fallen woman. 

 

I'm not applauding this viewpoint btw but we can't expect a show about the 1920s English aristocracy to have 2015 values.

 

How old was Edith in the last episode, 33? Even in 1925, would it really have been such a dealbreaker to Bertie that his unmarried 30+ fiancée  had previously been "touched" by another man? As long as it wasn't some guy he had to run into in their social circle (not a problem with Gregson, obviously)... I realize we're dealing with a time well before the sexual revolution, but I honestly feel like mere non-virginity would've been a bigger deal to him if she'd been 23. At 23, she still gets in under the wire as the young maiden expected to go into the bridal chamber utterly clueless about the secrets of the marital bed (even though this was not the complete reality of young British women by the 1920s). But if Bertie had just been told that 33-year-old Edith had a dead former paramour with whom she'd slept, broke up with her because of it and disclosed to his BFFs the true reasons... I can picture them telling him he's being a big girl's blouse while reminding him that, well, she is one of those "liberated" women working a man's job in the big city, hasn't he seen the pictures to know how women of that sort are, and that he really shouldn't have picked such an old girl* if he was so desperate for a virginal bride. Now, a child with another man, yes, in the 1920s, Bertie's initial reaction is totally expected.

 

 

*just to make clear that I don't think 33 is old, for life, just by the standards for a never-married woman in the Roaring Twenties.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Dejana

[SusanSunflower]

As with the issues with old old Strallan, life expectancy was still in the mid to late 50's ... antibiotics were not introduced until the 1940s and those lost to the 1918 flu epidemic were still painfully missed ...  Life was uncertain.  Marriage then -- still for many -- a matter of merger of assets ... Particularly as the fortune receded, social standing was to be protected -- if not for yourself, for your children. Bertie might have better "afforded" marrying single-mother Edith when he was poor -- as a rich man of social standing, with his own future children to consider ... probably not. 

 

Oh, it's also not just the lies -- it's also Edith's life experience(s) denied ... this nice innocent flower of a very privileged girl ... well not so much.... he might have felt flattered she would even be interested in him ... oh, again, not so much. (I predict he'll be back, but ... it's a big deception and the living of a double-life that no one is interested in, not even Fellowes) 

 

FWIW, Strallan having no heir probably should have tipped Cora and Robert and even Violet to his favor ... 

Edited December 6, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

Dejana, you are quite right. It wasn't at all self-evident to assume that a single woman over 30 who had work and flat in London was a virgin. Besides, during the war even in the other circumstances "honorable" girls could be carried way when the man she loved was on a short leave.

SusanSunflower, you are right, too. Of course there would have been rumors, both because of Edith's journey to Switzerland, her adopted child and Gregson's testament. People are not naive, on the contrary many are malicious.

In the social sense Edith could have coped better by making an adoption or leaving the child in Switzerland as Rosamund and Violet recommended. Then she could married Bertie who never would have learned the truth (I guess many did so). But what would the audience have thought of her?

Or if Edith had with her child moved to America, she could have change her name and tell that she was a widow.

[Roseanna]

As a single mother, Edith was been compared with the former maid Ethel whom Major Bryant refused to give any help (though even his father thought that it would have been a proper way and therefore doubted paternity) and who had to give over her son to the parents of Major Bryant, which shows well how better off Edith was.

But has anyone ever compared Edith's dating and sleeping with a married man with Anna who also dated with Bates who was also married? Anna and even learned later that Mrs Bates was a thief and even worse, but Anna did't know it at the time but only trusted in him even after learning that he had been prison for theft. She even offered to live with him even unwed although he refused her offer.

Was Edith demanded to have a higher moral standard because her social position was higher? Or because Anna was from the beginning a nice girl who couldn't do anything wrong?

[Roseanna]

I have rewatched episodes and somewhat changed my opinions.

 

It’s not true that Edith is totally ignored by her parents and doesn’t get any support from them. That is only an impression born in S1-2, but Cora’s advice after the wedding fiasco in C3 was both wise and emphatic. Even more important, there is a clear change in S4 after Gregson is missing. Both Cora and Robert show more than once empathy when they saw that Edith is low and try insist on that there is hope. It’s also quite clear that they have concluded that Gregson is more than just a friend to Edith.

When Robert goes to America, it’s to Edith he says the longest farewell. He call her “darling” tries to encourage her and (for the second time) offers to hire a detective which she declines as the magazine has already done it. And Cora has a heart-to-heart-conversation with Edith where Edith asks if she is bad and Cora says she is not, she is has only a sharp tongue. Edith then says that she has often bad feelings and Cora says that everybody has but only when one is bad only when one acts on it.

 

The episode where Gregson’s death is confirmed is created in such a way that one can get impression that the whole family is totally insensitive towards Edith although it’s only Mary. For some reason we aren’t shown how Edith gets the news although we know that Robert wanted to be present, evidently to support Edith and even servants knew beforehand that the news will be a dreadful blow to her.  Afterwards Robert tells Cora who is very empathic and wants to go and comfort her daughter but Robert says she had gone to a long walk. All in all, Edith’s grief is downplayed by not showing it, only its consequences when she takes Marigold.

 

However, one can understand that because of earlier experiences Edith can’t just believe Robert’s words that he lover all her children equally (I doubt if we can believe it either on the basis on what we have seen in S1-3). And when Cora asks Edith what’s amiss she speaks only about Gregson's being missing, not her pregnancy.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Roseanna

[sark1624]

The main problems with both parents and Edith is that they dont understand each other, in Robert case is more palpable, but i think that in season 6 Robert is the one who stick up for Edith in most of the times. Also i can understand Edith´s feeling about not being supported by her parents, for example when Mary showed her new hair and she complained about that, Cora´s words where against Edith for not being fair to Mary. We know that either Cora and Robert knew the extension of Edith relation with Gregson, but in Edith´s perspective is that both of her parents are more worried about frivolous things (the horse race, the incoming picnic, Mary´s hair, etc). When both of their parents knew about Marigold we can see that they fully understand Edith´s behaviour, also when Robert told Edith that he also knows about Marigold, Edith apologizes to him but Robert to her also, imo that was a sort of apologize for some type of neglecting her.

 

In the other hand, when we see Robert knowing about Mary´s  "sketching trip" he seems to be a little dissapointed about her daugher, only a little. But seeing the rest of this final season he is more strick towards her and not so indulgent to some of her behaviour, also Cora. In a sense i feel that Mary with her behaviour exhausted their patience. 

[Roseanna]

Also i can understand Edith´s feeling about not being supported by her parents, for example when Mary showed her new hair and she complained about that, Cora´s words where against Edith for not being fair to Mary. We know that either Cora and Robert knew the extension of Edith relation with Gregson, but in Edith´s perspective is that both of her parents are more worried about frivolous things (the horse race, the incoming picnic, Mary´s hair, etc).

 

I found it really odd. I believe that in most families Mary would be severely reproached, at least for it that she didn't say "I am sorry" but "you spoil everything". She would also be reminded how the whole family supported her in her sorrow and that now it was her turn to do the same for her sister, or at least keep her mouth shut.

 

(In the next episode Violet criticized Mary who was totally indifferent when Edith was missing: "Lack of empathy can be as vulgar as excess of sentimentality", but she criticized rather that Mary didn't bother to hide her indifference than her heart's coldness for in this kind of situation many people would have been afraid even of suicide.)  

 

On the other hand, I wonder if it was an English way that one must show feelings but behave calmly. But when Tom tried in S4 to get Mary to work, she could i cry "Don't you understand that I have lost my husband" and rush from the table.

 

Lastly, the way the episode was scripted and filmed (leaving out the scene where Edith learned the news), it really looked like that Mary's new hair was the most important thing.

[Avaleigh]

But again, who exactly was waiting in the wings for Edith? And it's not as though Robert and Cora were making any effort to get Edith married off.... and if Strallan was so disgusting to them, I can't help but remember that Strallan was at one point Robert and Cora's idea of a perfectly acceptable husband for *Mary*.

I often see this stated and it just simply isn't true. Robert wasn't fond of the idea of Strallan for Mary at all. He thought the guy was dull as dishwater and was perfectly open about that. He thought Strallan was too old for both Edith and Mary and I can understand why. He even questioned Cora for inviting him in the first place. It's actually a point in favor of the idea that Robert doesn't see Edith as this loser who should settle for the first person who asks. 

 

I also think it's a myth that Edith's parents "never" did anything to help her find a husband. They did, it's just that Edith didn't find one. Edith wasn't denied the same social opportunities as her sisters. She had plenty of opportunities to meet men it's just that nothing materialized after her time on the deb scene. 

 

The only reason Cora considered Strallan for Mary was because she viewed Mary as damaged goods. She was very open about that I thought. 

 

Not entirely true. Strallan did chase Edith in season one. He sought her out for dates and car rides. He felt, after the war, that he wasn't worthy for her because he was a cripple, but when he was hale and hearty in season one, he did the pursuing.

 

 

Edith did chase Strallan. Strallan was there at first to invite Mary and Edith jumped all over him because it was clear that Mary wasn't interested. Even Robert saw how eager Edith was when she invited herself to go with him. She didn't care what the music would be she just wanted to go out on a date.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Tetraneutron]

Thank you. 

 

I don't get where people are seeing this narrative with poor little Edith and her evil ogre parents. This is not a deep show. There's not much room for subtlety or alternate interpretations. Robert always though Strallen was beneath them, saying he was old and dull. Edith chased him because the previous men she chased rejected her and she didn't want to be a spinster. Edith's poor prospects aren't because her parents are bad people (we haven't seen them deny Edith anything or not give her the same opportunities are Mary or Sybil) but because she's dowdy and boring and has no game. 

 

Cora only proposed Strallen for Mary after the Pamuk business. Robert, who did not know about the Pamuk business, was surprised Cora would saddle Mary with such a loser. Robert didn't treat Edith any worse than Mary here either. Are thought Strallen wasn't good enough for any of his daughters. 

[guilfoyleatpp]

I agree with the above. Robert didn't think that Strallan was good enough for any of his daughters, but he really should have overcome his compunction once the wedding was on. Thinking someone isn't "good enough" for your daughter is a common dad trope, but not many fathers go to the lengths to encourage the suitor to jilt their daughter at the altar. 

 

And it's like unintended consequences. If Strallan hadn't jilted Edith, she wouldn't have done a number of other things that Robert found unseemly (writing for a publication with HER NAME IN PRINT, for example), up to and including having a child out of wedlock.

Speaking of the name in print (which I totally just did), I'm reminded of a part in Wharton's "The Age of Innocence" where she mentions that a lady should really only ever have her name in print a few times - at her birth, her marriage announcement, and her death. That book takes place roughly in the same time as DA (late 1800s to 1920s) and the social mores falling away is a big part of the story. So I can see Robert's hesitation as he is part of the old guard, but really, don't be such an ass, dude. 

 

Edith really didn't have game, and for whatever reason, always acted out of desperation. It would seem there was a part of her that believed she was the boring loser that Mary was always saying she was. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Edith chased him because the previous men she chased rejected her and she didn't want to be a spinster.

Edith chased Strallan at first because he was available and willing. And she chases him again after the war because, in her own words, "If you think I'm going to give up on someone who calls me lovely...." If we were to agree that the show has little room for subtlety and alternate interpretation (not that I do), we should take her words at face value... Robert and Violet's actions intended to scare Strallan off leading up to the wedding (and Violet's words to Edith after being jilted) also speak for themselves.

 

Even if Edith had been going after Strallan only to avoid ending up a spinster, what should be wrong with that to Robert or Violet? They didn't mind the fact that Mary was only going to marry Patrick because he was heir and it would benefit everyone, not to mention throwing her at Matthew for the same reason. Then we have Robert who only married Cora for her money. They didn't even care about the prospect of a Strallan-Edith marriage until after the war--Cora, in particular, shows excitement when Edith tells her about Strallan coming to the party to talk to her at the end of season 1. It was nonsensical for Robert and Violet to be gung-ho against the marriage--and the idea that their actions were motivated by their "concern" for Edith, that she could "do better" in their eyes, is a yarn, because it's clear they didn't. (Robert talks about Edith looking likely never to end up with anyone in season 1 with Cora; and Violet's, "Any port in a storm.")

Edited January 27, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[SusanSunflower]

I always saw shadows of the movie  Rebecca ("Last night I dreamt I went to Manderley again) in Strallan and Edith -- a relatively mousy young woman is swept up by a wealthy (and very depressed) widowed man only to discover he is emotionally damaged, concealing secrets. The very inexperienced young woman keeps to her marriage vows as the ugly truth of his first marriage is revealed and, after overcoming multiple obstacle, they live happily ever after. 

 

Edith wanted to be a devoted patient wife. She declared her ambition to heal Strallan (which just made him miserable) and to overcome all obstacles. 

 

There was no reason they couldn't/wouldn't have been happy or at least happy enough .. but yes, Edith would have married anyone just to be a married woman and someone's beloved wife. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Tetraneutron]

Edith chased Strallan at first because he was available and willing. And she chases him again after the war because, in her own words, "If you think I'm going to give up on someone who calls me lovely...." If we were to agree that the show has little room for subtlety and alternate interpretation (not that I do), we should take her words at face value... Robert and Violet's actions intended to scare Strallan off leading up to the wedding (and Violet's words to Edith after being jilted) also speak for themselves.

 

Even if Edith had been going after Strallan only to avoid ending up a spinster, what should be wrong with that to Robert or Violet? They didn't mind the fact that Mary was only going to marry Patrick because he was heir and it would benefit everyone, not to mention throwing her at Matthew for the same reason. Then we have Robert who only married Cora for her money. They didn't even care about the prospect of a Strallan-Edith marriage until after the war--Cora, in particular, shows excitement when Edith tells her about Strallan coming to the party to talk to her at the end of season 1. It was nonsensical for Robert and Violet to be gung-ho against the marriage--and the idea that their actions were motivated by their "concern" for Edith, that she could "do better" in their eyes, is a yarn, because it's clear they didn't. (Robert talks about Edith looking likely never to end up with anyone in season 1 with Cora; and Violet's, "Any port in a storm.")

The difference was Mary was urged to marry Patrick and Matthew to save the estate. It wasn't that she had no other prospects, in fact, everyone pretty much agreed that Mary could have whoever she wanted. She was being heavily encouraged to do her duty as a Crawley, even though she was unenthusiastic about it (at first). When Cora was pregnant, everyone was asking her if she could be happy with a simple country solicitor, because they knew Mary could marry a man with a big estate and title if she wanted. Same with Robert and Cora. That marriage was for money. 

 

But Edith isn't marrying Strallen to save the estate or the family fortune. She's doing it because she wants to be married. Remember when, in the episode she gets married, she said "Something in this house is finally about me!" There were no love scenes with Edith and Strallen like there were with Edith and Greyson, Mary and Matthew or Sybil and Tom. No passion. No declaration of love. And even he ditched her, she wasn't upset at losing the love of her life, she was upset she was humiliated. Compare that to Mary, who, when Matthew was engaged to Lavinia, cared more that she lost thew man she loved than that the estate was going out of the immediate family. 

[TheGreenKnight]

There were no love scenes with Edith and Strallen like there were with Edith and Greyson, Mary and Matthew or Sybil and Tom. No passion. No declaration of love.

 

Mary & Matthew and Tom & Sybil also had no love scenes until after they were married? But if you're talking about their flirtations, Edith and Strallan did have those. See the car ride, among a few other scenes. He wanted to marry Edith because he enjoyed their conversation. He had no need to marry anyone.

 

And encouraging Mary to marry the heir for the family's sake--or for Mary's own sake, whatever the case may be, because of money--shouldn't have been any different than the benefit of pushing Edith to marry Strallan to avoid a spinster in the family, and for Edith's own sake to avoid ending up a spinster. But this is simply referring to what the family thinks is Edith's fate. Edith doesn't make any declarations about fears of ending up a spinster. Seeking a marriage alone doesn't prove that was her fear--seeking marriage was priority number 1 for most women in that time. As far as Edith not talking about Strallan after the end of their relationship, this isn't a surprise. I don't remember Mary talking to anybody about Matthew during season 2 either and the Strallan character had no other involvement in the storyline unlike Matthew, who was still heir.

 

Going off what I said about Cora in my last post, it's interesting that neither Cora nor Cora's mother saw anything wrong with Strallan that we know about.

[Roseanna]

Mary & Matthew and Tom & Sybil also had no love scenes until after they were married? But if you're talking about their flirtations, Edith and Strallan did have those.

 

Flirting is not a proof of love. You can flirt simply of fun, power or habit.

 

Mary and Henry flirted, but I saw never any love between them. Tom and Sybil never flirted, but you could see that Tom was passionately love and Sybil came also love him deeply. Many of Mary and Matthew's best love scenes ​were those where they denied their feelings but they shone thorough nevertheless.

 

Compare the engagement scenes. There was simply no passion between Edith and Strallan. They never even kissed properly! 

[Roseanna]

Remember when, in the episode she gets married, she said "Something in this house is finally about me!" There were no love scenes with Edith and Strallen like there were with Edith and Greyson, Mary and Matthew or Sybil and Tom. No passion. No declaration of love. And even he ditched her, she wasn't upset at losing the love of her life, she was upset she was humiliated.

 

Yes, before her wedding to Strallan Edith never said what she said to her father about Bertie: "I simply adore him". And when the couples were standing before the altar, Edith was happy and shy and Strallan was fatherly protective, whereas Edith and Bertie were equal, confident and openly happy because they knew each other, had forgiven each other and had won all obstacles together.

 

And as you say, Edith never said of Strallan that she had lost the love of her life as she said of Gregson.