Mary and Edith, Edith and Mary

[Hecate7]

Wallis Simpson was devastatingly lovely, although as she aged I imagine people thought of her as a bit horse-faced. Camilla looked more or less like Princess Di only 15 years older. When men have to marry highborn ladies, they don't select only for beauty, but they do aim for the most beautiful woman they can find within those perameters.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Hecate7

[Roseanna]

Hecate7, lovely is the last word I would use of Wallis Simpson even in 1930ies. That's not to say that she didn't attract men.

[Roseanna]

I have begun to wonder if Edith is Mary's shadow in the sense that she projects to Edith those things that she can't face.

* Edith is grieving for Gregson - it's intolerable to Mary because it reminds her of her own grief over Matthew's death which she haven't really accepted.

* Edith adores Marigold even if she isn't her "real mother" - it's intolerable to Mary who deep inside knows that George is to her only a duty to bear and rise an heir.

* Edith is successful editing her paper - it's intolerable to Mary because Edith has an option to leave Downton although her staying there is also intolerable - Mary simply wishes that Edith would "disappear", that is to die and with her would disappear all Mary's bad qualities.

* Edith is happily in love with Bertie - it's intolerable to Mary who can't find anyone she would love as she did Matthew.

[Hecate7]

Hecate7, lovely is the last word I would use of Wallis Simpson even in 1930ies. That's not to say that she didn't attract men.

 

Well, I was going to post a link to Wallis's wedding photo. She has a swan's neck, patrician profile, a perfect oval face, and coloring like Mary's which was very much the preferred palette at the time. Perhaps being American and far too young to have seen any of the kafuffle in the press, I'm missing something. But yes, she looks quite lovely to me.

 

It's really not fair to compare Camilla to Edith--Charles was already in love with her when he married Diana, and the only reason he didn't marry Camilla to begin with was that she was already married to someone else.

I have begun to wonder if Edith is Mary's shadow in the sense that she projects to Edith those things that she can't face.

* Edith is grieving for Gregson - it's intolerable to Mary because it reminds her of her own grief over Matthew's death which she haven't really accepted.

* Edith adores Marigold even if she isn't her "real mother" - it's intolerable to Mary who deep inside knows that George is to her only a duty to bear and rise an heir.

* Edith is successful editing her paper - it's intolerable to Mary because Edith has an option to leave Downton although her staying there is also intolerable - Mary simply wishes that Edith would "disappear", that is to die and with her would disappear all Mary's bad qualities.

* Edith is happily in love with Bertie - it's intolerable to Mary who can't find anyone she would love as she did Matthew.

 

 

Yes. You're onto something. I think the Edith/Mary relationship actually has all the complexity of the Gibson/Sylvester relationship of Talking Kitty fame.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Hecate7

[sark1624]

When i start with the show i found the character of Edith dull and pathetic, of the 3 sisters my favorite was Sybil. I simply didnt care what would happen to Edith in the first 3 seasons. I start to pay more attention to her after she was jilted in the altar (and in that moment i even have a little laugh about her bad luck), but even then i didnt like her.

 

But after the season 4 i seeing how she managed to make something of herself without depending of a good marriage i start to like her a lot more, Edith makes a lot of mistakes in the series and one of the reasons is because she never had the full support of the family. The majority of her actions, good or bad, are faced by herself. Even in the last episode when Mary ruined her relation with Bertie nobody in the family went to London to speak to her, nobody even ask about her, only Cora asked to her but when she arrived to Mary´s wedding. And even that, they always use condescending tone when they speak to her and of her. If we put all that in a balance is remarkably her achievements in life, but one the consequences of that is her mousy temperant, but what would you expect of a person who is always ignored, bullied and almost always critised for every entrepreneur that she tries?

 

Also i like that even with al her troubles in life at least she tries of making something of herself, she is a woman with real problems, connected with the reality of her time. Mary in the other hand still behaves and expect be treated like a princess with no more ambitions that preserving a way of life that itself is wrong (an aarbitrary hierarchy betwen persons) with no interests outside Downton bubble, in conclusion Mary represents the pre war values. Edith throw her columns speaks about the treatment of ww1 veterans, woman equality, and in the last season she show interest in founding a college for woman with humble origins, etc. The problem is that JF doenst hide that he want a Mary´s world, a place where everybody know  their place and is happy with that. this is one of the reason why "liberal" characters are portraid in such negative way or bad things happen to them (Bunting, Daisy, Edith, Thomas, etc) its the classic way of telling to the audience of how they must think and behave. 

 

Finally in wich sister is the strongest, its clear that the strongest was Sybil, but betwen Mary and Edith, imo is Edith. Many thinks that is Mary, but its easy be a strong person when you have an army of people supporting and flattering 24/7. And also is the actions who speak for itself, refusing and a abortion is a strong action in that time and position of Edith in society, trying to bring that child also; Mary "strong" behaviour is only her frases, but no her actions, few times she do something in that way, is always Tom or another person who do the "hard" work, again a strong person is who admits her mistakes and go to the other and tries to apologize, but she stayed on Downton and never catch a train to speak with Edith; in the other hand Edith apologized and accepted the consequences with Bertie, also accepted the consequences of having sex with Gregson by keeping Marigold. Imo the wright word for describing Mary attitude to certain aspects of life is not her stubborness (in a good sense), in fact she is  obsessed (in a bad way) that things have to work in her way; and the obssesion of her quickly can develop in bullying attitude like we see in the last episode. 

 

That´s way i like Edith, even a person like Edith can do a mistake with you its very difficult that can be motivated by negative feelings, but Mary in the other hand is the classic bully. I know how they work because i spend all my life in a private boys-only school, and always the bully has 2 o 3 friends that laughed of everything that he did but we all know that they also were afraid that sometime the bully can pick on them (fortunately i never had problem with that), and my teachers even someones they were priests ignored that. And also saw like other schoolmates didnt had my luck and were picked by those bullies and there behaviour was similar to Edith and even if the rest will trie to integrate them to something they always behave in a mousy way and many lost their patience with that, after a time we realized why they behaved like that. For that reason, i would never going to like a person like that, even if its fictional, and i dont care the sharp quotes, or the beautiful dresses, or another  frivolous thing. 

Edited November 27, 2015 by sark1624

[Roseanna]

sark1646, I agree with you completely.

I think it was sad that in S6 Tom had scenes only with Mary (except one in the last part) while he had formerly been also Edith's friend.

Somebody said above that Mary is not a mean person because she is mean only to Edith. That's not true because she is mean also to Cora ("you are an American" etc). But the crux of the matter is not whether she is mean to one person or several people but whether meanness is a occasional lapse that one regrets and tries to do better or a constant habit whose ugliness one doesn't even notice or one defends oneself that "she is so annoying that I can't help myself".

It says something essential of Mary that when she in the end of S6 was uncivil to Anna, she at once made a sincere apology, but to Edith her "I am sorry" was a formality.

[Roseanna]

Bertie was introduced in SC as a man to be pitied, and Mary called her boring.

I think that Bertie is a shy man who only lacks self-confidence, but who is essentially good and kind. When he helped Edith in the night she edited her paper, he put her and her needs first.

On the contrary, the most boring of all suitors is Henry. He talks only how he loves cars, besides Mary. In many cases he has shown lack of sensitivity and even pushiness.

[DianeDobbler]

I must disagree about the beauty of Wallis Simpson - for me she is more along the lines of a Diana Vreeland although not as extreme as Vreeland -- striking but not pretty or beautiful. Her facial features - eyes, nose, and particularly her mouth - were harsh. Yes, she had a long neck and was proportioned well for clothes - obviously. There was speculation for years that she was a man (unfounded from what I can read). I think Michelle Dockery is far more conventionally pretty - her features are a bit small, but she has classic bone structure - cheekbones, etc. If a person has a very defined jawline and cheekbones, they're going to be photogenic, which is not always the same as pretty. Dockery is pretty. Wallis was photogenic - strong chin. I've read about her for years.

 

I rewatched Episode 8 and it appeared to me that Edith did all the work of the, at least purported, reconciliation between herself and her sister. The writing was SO plot-agenda'd - it was about getting Mary married to Henry (I actually wrote "to Tony" at first - they're so interchangeable), that it often felt as if Fellowes were USING Edith to get us interested in Mary/Tony. That said, Mary did disparage herself to Anna about what she'd done to her sister - but of course, to set up some "It's all about Henry, m'lady" dialogue - which turns out to be unfair to Edith's character. Mary did ask the others to leave when Edith showed up. I think this was the first time that Mary treated Edith with respect; I don't think it's ever been clear to her before that her sister has been out in the world far me than she has, and probably has a wider, less self-centered view of the world, one that is worth listening to. When Edith pointed out that Mary had spilled the beans about Marigold because she was unhappy, and would be nice now because she was happy, it was said without malice. But also sort of fell flat because of problematic writing. Mary's happy now? Okay, if you say so. Edith's drama was sort of dragged in as bait to get people to sit for Mary's marriage. That was the problem with the writing that is very clear, and it comes off as if Edith is shortchanged, which, of course, she was, but I think it played about as well as could be done, considering. Fellowes can't structure or pace for shit, and that problem was all over this episode, with the emphasis and timing in all the wrong places. I did think he did his best when he had Mary go to Edith's room after Bertie left, rather than have Edith come after Mary in anger, and when Edith said what she had to say while packing, clearly her well-chosen remarks to Mary secondary to getting out of there and back to her life in London.

 

Finally, when Edith is with Mary before the ceremony, Mary asks what Edith thinks Matthew would have thought. I can't recall Mary having ever asked Edith's opinion before. Of course Edith reminds Mary that Matthew loved Mary and so, would be happy for her.

 

Sure he would. As someone said, all that was missing from this episode was Mathew's zombie arm punching through the grave to clutch Mary while his disembodied voice croaked she should marry Henry.

 

So, the structural problems were this - Mary destroys Edith's chance at happiness - at least destroys Edith's chance at telling Bertie herself. Edith is the woman who has had happiness snatched from her time after time. BUT in Fellowes universe, it was Mary whom everyone pitied, Mary who was seen as the person who ruined her life, while Edith got her butt out of town and back to London. Since she'd cleared the scene, everyone was free to focus on Mary, and of course, Mary was immediately regretful, so nobody could really tell her anything she didn't already know, freeing them all to talk to her about Henry, and sparing them from having to talk to EDITH, since Edith was conveniently out of there, and shown to be having a decent enough time of it in London laughing with her editor about Spratt. 

 

That's why it was a botch. In this episode, Edith's relationship is destroyed and Mary's relationship is consummated in marriage, but Mary is the one treated as the tragic figure if she didn't marry Henry, while, because Edith got out of Downton right away, she didn't steal the family's emotional focus. Meantime I think the audience was far more interested in Edith's prospects with Bertie than Mary's with Henry. Fellowes sort of tried to transfer the audience's interest in one to the other, thinking maybe we wouldn't notice.

 

I agree with those who think this came off as if Mary WERE authentically a tragic figure who was hustled into this second marriage by her family and all of her associates, pretty much because they were tired of dealing with her and wanted her settled, so they INSISTED she was in love with him. I don't, though, think that's the actual story Fellowes was telling. He was telling a story that didn't interest many people, used someone else's love story to do it, and as the beats of that story would hit a peak, would then turn the subject to Mary and Henry. Edith was the plot armor for Mary/Henry.

 

Looking ahead, and at that very awkward Edith, Mary, Tom, George photo with Henry lurking in the back, I wonder if part of Henry's "settling in" period is about thinking there's no role for him because Tom has that role, or because Tom is Mary's bff. To balance out that "adjustment" I anticipate hearing repeatedly that Mary and Henry have the greatest sex life on earth.

[ZoloftBlob]

I anticipate hearing repeatedly that Mary and Henry have the greatest sex life on earth.

 

All while Zombie Matthew watches and cheers "Yes yes! This is what *I* wanted for you! Henry, ask her for a blow job, she's tops at it!"

 

Honestly the pacing of the Mary/Henry romance/engagement/legal transaction is so weird...

 

And am I the only who has noticed that Matthew Goode has NOTHING to say about his experiences on Downton Abbey? I can't find any comment or articles that aren't from when he was cast... I can't even find the other actors commenting on him - wait, I think Michelle Dockery said something nice... but really

[Roseanna]

DianeDobbler, I doubt whether anyone but JF can take seriously the line he wrote to Edith that Mary's behavior was due to her unhappiness because that unhappiness was her own making and she could make it right just by calling Henry to her.

Edith was much more right when she said at breakfast that Mary can't bear that Edith ever gets better than she. And we were shown earlier that Mary was glad when she believed that Bertie would loose his job and that she was jealous when she learned that Edith would become Marchioness. (Oh this importance of titles that depended on only chance!)

In a way it's curious because Mary said in the CS that she wanted to murder Edith and later that she couldn't bear to be left alone with her (after Rose and Tom had left Downton). In short, she couldn't bear the sight of Edith and wished that she simply disappeared from her life. But what does she do when there is a chance that Edith would have married and left Downton? Because her jealousy she makes sure that it doesn't happen (she couldn't know that Edith would leave for London). But DA is full of this kind of behavior (it's not unusual in the real life, either).

I don't believe Edith's words that as old ladies she and Mary would talk about their shared memories that would mean more than their mutual dislike. Why on earth would Edith want to speak of Gregson with Mary who never even wanted to get to know him?

Edith would be wise to keep so long a distance of Mary as possible.

[DianeDobbler]

Yeah, Edith and Mary never talk together about those they've lost NOW. Why would they when they're old? Tom remembers Matthew and of course, Sybil, and he's their age, so presumably will be around to share the stories. Hells bells, I just thought of that. Fellowes takes Tom so much for granted, he's forgotten that Tom knows all the cast of characters same as Edith/Mary. Tom knew Matthew from the start. Even knew Gregson. Obviously, Sybil. Obviously knows Carson, Granny, Papa and Mama. Was there from day one of the babyhood of all the grandkids, including his own.

 

God, I wish I hadn't remembered Tom will be around to chit chat about the days of yore with ALL the people Edith mentioned. Makes the writing even worse.

[Roseanna]

I have been thinking JF's words about Edith being unlucky and that we all know persons who are unlucky. But what does one mean with "lucky" or "unlucky".

There are athletes who are called lucky because when they shoot in the final moments of the game that it's tied, they almost always make the goal whereas the unlucky athlete, if he even gets the chance, nearly always misses. But is it really question luck? Rather, it's due to it that the former is a better shooter because he had practiced more and have more alternatives to shoot and feint and that he had better nerves and that he isn't afraid to try.

These same things apply to life. In my country there are sayings like "Luck helps the hard-working" (meaning do your best, then luck helps you) and "Luck favors the bold" (meaning luck favors him who dares to seize the opportunity).

Of course there are also pure chances that turned to be lucky or unlucky, like somebody misses Titanic which is also an example of misfortune turned lucky.

What kind of luck or misfortune Mary and Edith have in DA?

Mary loses Patrick who she doesn't love in Titanic and gets to know the new heir, Matthew, whom she wouldn't have met otherwise or if she had, couldn't fall in love because of his middle class origins and prospects. Mary wants the entail broken but luckily to her, Robert doesn't agree and so Mary is luckily saved from the marriage with a gay duke. When Pamuk comes to her back, she passively "accepts" it (according to JF) although when he dies, she acts actively to get help from Anna and Cora. The afffair and Edith's revelation letter hangs above Mary like the sword of Damokles and forces her to stay engaged to Carlisle until Robert and Matthew say to her that it's OK to take the scandal - that never comes. When Matthew proposes, Mary makes a decision that causes him to abandon her and she suffers consequences by hankering after him for years but never does anything to win him back until finally his bride Lavinia dies conveniently and he wins his guilt feelings on his own and they can marry. When Robert loses Cora's money. Matthew gets Shire's heritage. Only with Matthew's death bad luck hits Mary - and even that only because the actor wanted to leave the series. Because of Matthew's testament Mary gets half of the estate and without studying agriculture manages the estate. Although she is a widow with a son and fortune tied to the estate, she can simply pick a husband which she can do only with the push of her family.

All in all, Mary has never worked hard in order to get what she wants nor made bold decision. She has got all by pure chance and even all her misfortunes had turned luck (save Matthew's death). She is still as selfish as she was in her early twenties. Life hasn't taught her empathy towards others nor check her own moods.

On the other hand, Edith is in S1 shown as a girl who is ready to fall with love with almost any man but who has no qualifications how to attract them. Looking back it's clear that it's due to her low self-esteem caused by the neglect of her parents and that makes her try too hard. So her only admirer is Strallan whom Mary doesn't bother to attract - except to annoy Edith. This makes her send the revelation letter to the Turkish embassy which in turn makes Mary to revenge her and she loses Strallan. The war makes her good by turning her interest from herself to the others. Being jilted by Strallan is a misfortune turned luck for she has to make use of her abilities. Her own effort - a letter to the editor - causes that she is offered a post as a columnist and gets to know Gregson. In their romance she is as active as he and she is also as responsible for their night together. His disappearance and death are bad luck, but with her daughter she again makes active decisions to bear her and finally to take her to herself. That Gregson left her his paper and flat, can be seen good luck but taking control of the paper is her active decision. In the romance with Bertie she is again as active as he. Only in the last phase she was unable to make a decision to tell him about Marigold in time which gave Mary her chance.

All in all, Edith has been in many ways active. Although helped by luck, she has "earned" her professional success. Also in the private life she has dared to do things and later bear the consequences of her actions and choices. Only daring not to tell about Marigold show that is still somewhat scarred by her constant misfortunes in love: if you believe that you are unlucky, you make decisions (or avoid to make a decisions which is also a choice) that prove that you are. Still, she had grown to a better person who can endure anything.

[whatsatool]

MAry Shipper here. Edith is just too whiny for me.

[AndySmith]

Amen. I'll take Mary over Edith any day of week.

[TheGreenKnight]

There are things I've liked about Mary over the course of the show (mostly her relationship with Anna and Carson early on, and her interactions with Matthew), but Mary season 4 onwards doesn't have any redeeming qualities for me. Since I find both Carson and Mary unlikable after 5 seasons, their interactions don't touch me anymore. Still, I do like the character a little more than a couple of others, but that may change before this last season is over.

[Roseanna]

There are things I've liked about Mary over the course of the show (mostly her relationship with Anna and Carson early on, and her interactions with Matthew), but Mary season 4 onwards doesn't have any redeeming qualities for me.

 

I was hoping to the end of S6 that she would cease to be controlled by her negative feelings, but she failed miserable, and CS didn't succeed to repair the damage.

 

Even worse was that, because there was nothing at stake, she ceased to be an interesting character. Her romance with Henry was totally phoney.

[TheGreenKnight]

Discussion carried over from the Season 6, Episode 3 thread:

 

Mary has definitely been cruel to a laundry list of people, like Lavinia, Anna (forcing to buy her birth control), Carson (her words to him when he refused to uproot for her in season 2), Matthew (guilt-tripping him over the money he inherited from Lavinia, who she should also feel some guilt about), Mrs. Hughes (her wedding), Alfred (saying he was unsuitable for the job), Evelyn Napier (openly flirting with his friend when the visit was intended to be between the two of them), Strallan (a casualty in her back-and-forth with Edith), even Carlisle, imo (basically using him despite being in love with another man). The case of Lavinia in particular is just as bad as Edith with the Drewes/Swiss family. Ultimately what Mary and Edith want (Matthew/Marigold) matters more than the happiness and well-being of other people involved (Lavinia/the Drewes). The kiss and flirtation with Matthew even happens at the end of the season, after several episodes where Mary was supposed to have been "growing." And her sleeping with Pamuk--and Gillingham--is being as cruel to the rest of the family and the servants who would've carried her possible disgrace as the letter about Pamuk was, especially to Anna and Cora who had to carry a corpse to keep the whole thing a secret.

 

I don't necessarily see Edith as an especially good person, but I still do think of her as better than Mary generally. Part of that is because my perspective watching is that most of her cruel actions to Mary are to defend herself or in response to something Mary has done to her. I think it's justifiable to take that impression away from the show considering we open the series with Mary having already dealt the first blow that we know of (Patrick) and then rubbing salt in the wound. This is especially apparent when you think of the different motivations for their barbs. Edith usually throws them out of jealousy at Mary's unfair advantages (in the early seasons) or in retaliation. Mary's only motivation is an innate trust in advantages she didn't even earn (being born conventionally beautiful and first of the siblings) or jealousy at the rare attention the family throws Edith's way. Edith worries about Mary knowing of Marigold's identity, and her parents agree she's right to worry, but Mary doesn't think about Edith being able to harm her at all when talking to her parents about Pamuk and then Gillingham.

Edited January 23, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[ShadowFacts]

Discussion carried over from the Season 6, Episode 3 thread:

 

Mary has definitely been cruel to a laundry list of people, like Lavinia, Anna (forcing to buy her birth control), Carson (her words to him when he refused to uproot for her in season 2), Matthew (guilt-tripping him over the money he inherited from Lavinia, who she should also feel some guilt about), Mrs. Hughes (her wedding), Alfred (saying he was unsuitable for the job), Evelyn Napier (openly flirting with his friend when the visit was intended to be between the two of them), Strallan (a casualty in her back-and-forth with Edith), even Carlisle, imo (basically using him despite being in love with another man). The case of Lavinia in particular is just as bad as Edith with the Drewes/Swiss family. Ultimately what Mary and Edith want (Matthew/Marigold) matters more than the happiness and well-being of other people involved (Lavinia/the Drewes). The kiss and flirtation with Matthew even happens at the end of the season, after several episodes where Mary was supposed to have been "growing." And her sleeping with Pamuk--and Gillingham--is being as cruel to the rest of the family and the servants who would've carried her possible disgrace as the letter about Pamuk was, especially to Anna and Cora who had to carry a corpse to keep the whole thing a secret.

 

I don't necessarily see Edith as an especially good person, but I still do think of her as better than Mary generally. Part of that is because my perspective watching is that most of her cruel actions to Mary are to defend herself or in response to something Mary has done to her. I think it's justifiable to take that impression away from the show considering we open the series with Mary having already dealt the first blow that we know of (Patrick) and then rubbing salt in the wound. This is especially apparent when you think of the different motivations for their barbs. Edith usually throws them out of jealousy at Mary's unfair advantages (in the early seasons) or in retaliation. Mary's only motivation is an innate trust in advantages she didn't even earn (being born conventionally beautiful and first of the siblings) or jealousy at the rare attention the family throws Edith's way. Edith worries about Mary knowing of Marigold's identity, and her parents agree she's right to worry, but Mary doesn't think about Edith being able to harm her at all when talking to her parents about Pamuk and then Gillingham.

 

I agree pretty much with your thesis here.  They are both guilty of nastiness toward each other, and misdeeds regarding other people.  To reduce it to simplistic terms, Mary is haughty, Edith is insecure, and the battle is on.  I agree with what someone said in the episode thread, that Edith just needs to get away from Downton and make her life in London where she is away from the behavioral patterns that aren't likely to change.  As we say nowadays, sometimes you have to leave toxic people behind, for your own mental health.  Edith has much to atone for regarding the Drewes most recently, so she could probably use a bunch of insight into her own issues, but having the continual drag of Mary around her is never going to help her get clarity about anything.  They bring out the worst in each other often times. 

[Roseanna]

The case of Lavinia in particular is just as bad as Edith with the Drewes/Swiss family. Ultimately what Mary and Edith want (Matthew/Marigold) matters more than the happiness and well-being of other people involved (Lavinia/the Drewes). The kiss and flirtation with Matthew even happens at the end of the season, after several episodes where Mary was supposed to have been "growing." And her sleeping with Pamuk--and Gillingham--is being as cruel to the rest of the family and the servants who would've carried her possible disgrace as the letter about Pamuk was, especially to Anna and Cora who had to carry a corpse to keep the whole thing a secret.

 

I must defend Mary in both cases.

 

Mary didn't choose to sleep with Pamuk (although I wouldn't reproach her if she had). He came to her bedroom uninvited after she had clearly shown that she didn't like to be even kissed by him.  Then he threatened that if she called for help, she would loose her reputation anyhow, so why don't sleep with him anyhow.  As Mary was quite young, she couldn't in a few seconds make a conclusion that it would have better to scream (Mary's family and Downton's servants would keep quiet of the scandal and Pamuk would have lost his job if Robert informed to his embassy vs. Pamuk could boast of his conquest, she could become pregnant). And of course she can in no way be seen responsible of his dying in her bed and its all results.

 

As for sleeping with Gillingham, Mary was a widow in her thirties and she had a full right to live her own life. She should have more careful in the hotel but actually it was Gillingham's idea to use their own names.

 

As for Lavinia, although Matthew did wrong towards her and Mary towards Carlisle (even if he wasn't a nice man, he was her fiance who had prevented the Pamuk scandal to be published), but in the end a far worse than that single kiss was that they didn't take the only possible solution, namely broken their engagements with persons they didn't love and marry each other. In that way, as Lavinia herself said to Carlisle, at least two people would have become happy instead of all four being unhappy. 

 

Of course I understand that Matthew behaved like the code of the time demanded of "a man of honor" by not abandoning Lavinia who had been ready to accept him when he was lame. And it made a good plot. But that doesn't change the fact that if he had married Lavinia although loving Mary (or at least loving Mary more), not even Lavinia would have become happy whereas she would after some time have had a chance to become happy with some other man.

 

It would have been another matter if they had already been married and especially if they have had children. Then Matthew would have had a duty to make of the best of it - and that would have demanded that he would avoided Mary so much as possible. In their case "being friends" prevented them making a successful marriage with another, as Carlisle saw.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

I don't necessarily see Edith as an especially good person, but I still do think of her as better than Mary generally. Part of that is because my perspective watching is that most of her cruel actions to Mary are to defend herself or in response to something Mary has done to her. I think it's justifiable to take that impression away from the show considering we open the series with Mary having already dealt the first blow that we know of (Patrick) and then rubbing salt in the wound. This is especially apparent when you think of the different motivations for their barbs. Edith usually throws them out of jealousy at Mary's unfair advantages (in the early seasons) or in retaliation. Mary's only motivation is an innate trust in advantages she didn't even earn (being born conventionally beautiful and first of the siblings) or jealousy at the rare attention the family throws Edith's way. Edith worries about Mary knowing of Marigold's identity, and her parents agree she's right to worry, but Mary doesn't think about Edith being able to harm her at all when talking to her parents about Pamuk and then Gillingham.

 

In S1 Mary also acts on revenge: after learning Edith's letter and her calling her a "slut" she lies to Strallan. And earlier she simply couldn't let Edith glee over her only conquest without showing that she could get him too if she wanted which made Edith revenge on her sister after she had been humiliated by Mary's words that she had "no benefits at all".

 

Although both were dreadful as deeds, they had clear motives in the other's deeds. Plus they were competitors in the same arena, if not always about the same men, then at least about who will make the most successful match or (in Edith's case) a match at all. And even if they weren't teenagers, they behaved like ones, living still at home waiting the life began with marriage that was their only career.

 

Now the situation is entirely different: both have experienced love and death of their loved ones. In my experience, if you get support and empathy when you most need it from the person with whom you have quarreled, you forget her past deeds and, even if not becoming best friends, want to pay her in kind when she most needs it. That's why Mary, despite her many good sides, lacks in my eyes the quality I value most.      

[Roseanna]

Finally in wich sister is the strongest, its clear that the strongest was Sybil,

 

Actually we know only that Sybil was stronger than her sisters as the young girl. She had her own opinions and principles that weren't due to her privations socially or psychology but simply because she thought them right. She got her own profession as a nurse and married a man she loved and with him she chose the life she wanted to live without the privileges she was born to. At the same time she was loving and kind and didn't want to hurt anybody although not giving up her aim (she wanted her parents blessing for her marriage although she could do without it). She helped Gwen, not repaying her loyalty but because she regarded it that she wanted a better life.

 

On the other hand, we can't know how Sybil would have behaved in the situation where she must chose between her own interests and those of the other. Marrying Tom wasn't actually the test enough as I doubt if anybody of us would agree that she should have gave it over because his father originally opposed it.

 

We can't know how Sybil would have endured the death of her loved one, either, for she didn't experience it.

 

 I liked Sybil a lot but I find hard to imagine what could be  done with her in the future as she had practically no faults, apart from being too daredevil for which she got hurt in a rally as well as Tom nearly sacked from his job, and evidently she learned her lesson in one time. After she married Tom, what kind of challenges she could face, apart from helping him to create a future outside Ireland?  

[Andorra]

I think Sybil was written to leave the show. Julian Fellows already knew before season 2 started, that Jessica Brown Findlay would leave after the end of her contract, so it was clear she would get no storyline beyond that and I think it shows. As you said, Roseanna, I can't see anything happen to Sybil after season except leaving to Ireland or America with Tom.

[Roseanna]

I think Sybil was written to leave the show. Julian Fellows already knew before season 2 started, that Jessica Brown Findlay would leave after the end of her contract, so it was clear she would get no storyline beyond that and I think it shows. As you said, Roseanna, I can't see anything happen to Sybil after season except leaving to Ireland or America with Tom.

 

Maybe she would have been raped instead of Anna? In Jessica Fellowes book about Downton Abbey I got an impression that because Anna was such a good a person, she have to meet the most horrible misfortunes. If this really has been JF's motive, I think it shows lack of imagination.

[Eolivet]

Ultimately what Mary and Edith want (Matthew/Marigold) matters more than the happiness and well-being of other people involved (Lavinia/the Drewes). The kiss and flirtation with Matthew even happens at the end of the season, after several episodes where Mary was supposed to have been "growing."

 

I also have to disagree strongly with this, because whatever Mary deserves, she is blameless for what happened to Lavinia. Unless the argument is Mary was supposed to fight Matthew off with a stick or run screaming from the room when he put the record player on or slap him angrily across the face when he kissed her (he kissed her), Mary was always, always kind to Lavinia (kinder than she was to Edith or even Rose or any member of her family). But to recap:

 

--Putting on record player? Matthew.

--Asking for a dance? Matthew.

--Bringing up old feelings/events/the past? Matthew.

--Initiating the kiss? Matthew.

 

The fact that Mary was implicated in Matthew's guilt trip was never fair to her character, and I feel like in recent seasons, she's remembered less kindly in that plot than she should be. But she was nicer to Lavinia than she was to her own sister! Whatever Mary became in the later seasons, in season 2, she had accepted that she and Matthew would never be together, and as such, was open and welcoming to Lavinia, was going to marry Carlisle to spare her family a scandal, then was going to hightail it to America to spare her family a scandal.

 

Edith and the Drewes is a complex situation, with some interesting debate about the role of birth mothers and adoptive mothers in a child's life. Mary and Lavinia? Not complicated, to me. That was the fault of the Spanish flu first, Matthew second and Mary not at all.

[sark1624]

But if Mary would have been mean to Lavinia that it would backfired to her, there is a scene when Violet or Rosamound indirectly said something about the past of Lavinia in a dinner or lunch, and Matthew puts attention to it, but not in a bad way. I bet if he learns that somebody like Violet, Rosamound or even Mary in someway had treatened Lavinia he would had been 100% in Lavinia´s side defending her and Mary would had lost all her chances with him, so in the end was wise from Mary´s part not use that information to hurt break up their relation, also Matthew was showed as a man of codes and he never would accepted that, for that reason he defended Mary against Carlisle  threats. 

[TheGreenKnight]

I also have to disagree strongly with this, because whatever Mary deserves, she is blameless for what happened to Lavinia. Unless the argument is Mary was supposed to fight Matthew off with a stick or run screaming from the room when he put the record player on or slap him angrily across the face when he kissed her (he kissed her), Mary was always, always kind to Lavinia (kinder than she was to Edith or even Rose or any member of her family).

I agree, Mary was very kind to Lavinia up to this point. But, while most of the blame does fall on Matthew since he was the one in a relationship with Lavinia, Mary isn’t blameless for it happening either. Someone she was on the brink of marrying and still had feelings for asking her to dance, alone in a room, when he’s engaged to someone else...? There’s no way she didn’t have enough self-awareness to remove herself if she really cared about Lavinia more than her own potential happiness. And her responses to Matthew about the inheritance in season 3 only drive the point home.

[guilfoyleatpp]

To me, put simply, Mary is a big fish in a little pond.

The idea that Edith could escape the little pond for a larger one in which Mary's influence means very little probably riles her (Mary) and she reacts to any indication that it could happen (for example, the publishing triumph). 

It reminds me a bit of my husband's extended relations, who live quite comfortably in Mexico. They've been offered the opportunity to come to the US and have so far steadfastly declined. Why would they want to leave their sphere of influence and relative power for a place in which they are less important, less wealthy and less comfortable?

Mary has no desire to go anywhere. Edith, however, is a fool to stay in the country and duke it out with Mary. She's never going to totally win. Why not pursue a life where she will be able to access the more glamorous, worldly and brightly lit societies? 

[AndySmith]

I really don't care who did what to whom. To be honest, I wouldn't want to be friends with either Mary or Edith in real life (either back then or now). But Mary just makes better TV, so that's why I'll always choose her over Edith.

[TheGreenKnight]

Tastes differ, I guess. I feel like Edith was a more exploratory character than Mary--what does a woman do if she's not beautiful or married in those days? Neither are given noteworthy dialogue. The episodes I've seen of the last season so far seem to be trying to poise Mary as a young Violet, but it doesn't work at all. I have enjoyed both Carmichael and Dockery though.

 

I also have to admit one of several reasons I've continued to watch the show through six seasons is the hope that Edith will finally triumph and watch Mary suck a lemon. Sometimes it feels as fruitless as an Anna/Bates fan waiting to see that couple happy.

[SusanSunflower]

Robert's effusive greeting and praise last episode was not.in.character. but welcome ... as was Rosmund's interest, etc. Edith may be a nobody in Mary's universe (as Mary sees it) but she's beginning to impress others ... Was Mary bragging to Henry about being estate manager and having a "career" reactive ... I'd guess so... I know I almost guffawed ... 

Edited January 25, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

But if Mary would have been mean to Lavinia that it would backfired to her, there is a scene when Violet or Rosamound indirectly said something about the past of Lavinia in a dinner or lunch, and Matthew puts attention to it, but not in a bad way. I bet if he learns that somebody like Violet, Rosamound or even Mary in someway had treatened Lavinia he would had been 100% in Lavinia´s side defending her and Mary would had lost all her chances with him, so in the end was wise from Mary´s part not use that information to hurt break up their relation, also Matthew was showed as a man of codes and he never would accepted that, for that reason he defended Mary against Carlisle  threats. 

 

I have also thought that

 

But maybe Lavinia wasn't only the sweet and guiltless girl she seemed to but on purpose used the strategy that influenced on Mary. Urged by Anna and others, Mary had decided to tell Matthew that she still loved her but instead she met Lavinia who told her that she would couldn't live without Matthew. Lavinia could mean if Matthew fell in war, but there is another possibility: she knew that Mary and Matthew loved each other and she on purpose used Mary's pity to keep her taking Matthew from her. 

[Roseanna]

I agree, Mary was very kind to Lavinia up to this point. But, while most of the blame does fall on Matthew since he was the one in a relationship with Lavinia, Mary isn’t blameless for it happening either. Someone she was on the brink of marrying and still had feelings for asking her to dance, alone in a room, when he’s engaged to someone else...? There’s no way she didn’t have enough self-awareness to remove herself if she really cared about Lavinia more than her own potential happiness.

 

Oh come on, Mary was in love with Matthew. She wouldn't be human if she hadn't have once given over to her feelings!

 

Would Lavinia really be happy married to a man she knew loved another woman and married her only because of honor? And she knew it before the kiss according to Carlisle ("if Matthew only admitted the truth"). One could rather say that it was Lavinia who was selfish by not setting Matthew free whereas Matthew and Mary had been too unselfish to deny their feelings. 

 

Lavinia died because of influenza, not because Matthew kissed Mary. 

[SusanSunflower]

The world does not exist to make Mary happy ... I believe Matthew loved Lavinia and Lavinia loved Matthew ... I even believe it would have been a happy marriage, quite possibly happier than Mary and Matthew's ended up being (minus Mary pulling aristocratic rank on Matthew, siding with Robert and assuring him that she knew best). 

 

It was Mary's obligation to avoid "stealing" Matthew away from Lavinia (as it would be her obligation to avoid stealing Edith's beau or any other "attached" man, alienation of affection and breech of promise meant something in those days) ... It was Matthew' responsibility to be faithful ... which he largely was, given the remorse he felt afterwards. Funny no rumors attached to Mary+Matthew after the fact. 

 

Yes, even if she repented having sent him away... even if she pined at night into the wee hours of the morning ... Matthew was not "free" ... he was engaged, he was at the very eve of his wedding ... it's a soap opera, Lavinia died, Matthew grieved and felt remorse to Mary's annoyance....

Edited January 25, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[TheGreenKnight]

Oh come on, Mary was in love with Matthew. She wouldn't be human if she hadn't have once given over to her feelings!

My point was only that I don't see it as being any different than Edith putting her own happiness over the Drewes. And I definitely wasn't blaming Mary for Lavinia's death.

[Roseanna]

The world does not exist to make Mary happy ... I believe Matthew loved Lavinia and Lavinia loved Matthew ... I even believe it would have been a happy marriage, quite possibly happier than Mary and Matthew's ended up being (minus Mary pulling aristocratic rank on Matthew, siding with Robert and assuring him that she knew best). 

 

It was Mary's obligation to avoid "stealing" Matthew away from Lavinia (as it would be her obligation to avoid stealing Edith's beau or any other "attached" man, alienation of affection and breech of promise meant something in those days) ... It was Matthew' responsibility to be faithful ... which he largely was, given the remorse he felt afterwards. Funny no rumors attached to Mary+Matthew after the fact. 

 

Yes, even if she repented having sent him away... even if she pined at night into the wee hours of the morning ... Matthew was not "free" ... he was engaged, he was at the very eve of his wedding ... it's a soap opera, Lavinia died, Matthew grieved and felt remorse to Mary's annoyance....

 

Matthew probably loved Lavinia when he proposed her and they may have had as happy a marriage as Edith and Strallan, if he had never met Mary again. But during the war he saw her soft, disinterested sides when she was kind to Lavinia and she tended him as wounded. The result was that he fell in love with Mary more than ever before - partly just because Mary had not tried to "steal" him from Lavinia.

 

When Violet asked Matthew considerer again whom he would marry as "marriage is a long business", Matthew said not that she was talking nonsense as he was going to marry Lavnia because he loved her, but that he couldn't abandon her  because she had been willing to tend for him when he was lame. In short, Matthew felt he was bound to Lavinia by his honor.

 

Engagement is not like marriage. It's not legally binding (at least nowadays) but it is a trial period. Engagement can be broken and it should be broken if the feelings of the other had been changed instead of making marriage that can not ​be happy as the other party loves someone else.

 

It is not about he world that is responsible to making Mary happy, but about Matthew and Lavinia making the only sensible decision that there is no point to make all three unhappy maybe for the rest of their lives if there is an option that Matthew and Mary can be happy and ​Lavinia after a period of unhappiness can find a happiness with a man who loves her best.

[TheGreenKnight]

Taken from the Season 6, Episode 6 thread, because it seemed off-topic when I looked back at it.

 

Andorra said:

So what about them calling each other "Darling" while she didn't do that with Edith? What about Sybil talking to Mary about her marriage with Tom? About wanting to christen the Baby Catholic? Edith didn't know about it, Sybil mentioned that she had told Mary about it already though when they talked about it again while she was in labor. Obviously Mary was also the one exchanging letters with the Bransons, while the others didn't we heard about Sybil writing to Mary and Mary writing to Sybil, but nothing about Edith writing.

 

Sorry to respond so late, but I had decided to do a marathon of the entire six seasons, and thought I’d wait until I was up to Sybil’s last episode before responding. As far as referring to one another as darlings, I can’t agree on that point at all. The only time Sybil ever refers to Mary this way is on Mary’s wedding day. Mary does it regularly, not just to Sybil, but to others. Moreover, if they are especially close, why does Mary not go to Sybil when Pamuk dies instead of Cora, and why does Sybil make a joke about how she wouldn’t trust either of her sisters not to betray her to Gwen? There’s also the face Mary makes when the Duke takes special attention of Sybil in the first episode. The few conversations Sybil has with Mary about Tom before the rest of the family knows begin with Mary reprimanding Sybil and Sybil snapping back in kind (which never happens between her and Edith, btw). There was an episode where Sybil writes to Mary to let them know she and Tom are coming, but this is explained a couple of scenes later when we find out Mary has been writing to Sybil to keep her informed about Bates’ trial (since she is closest to Anna and has the most knowledge). As far as telling Mary about wanting her child to be christened at Downton, this didn’t come across to me as Sybil giving a special confidence to Mary so much as she was the one in the room at the time. Besides, Mary is similar to Violet and Robert in her opinion of Tom before Sybil dies. Even if Sybil had made a specific choice to tell Mary about it rather than Edith, it would make sense considering after Edith was jilted two episodes prior, she voices her envy of her pregnancy in an emotional outburst.

 

Also, Sybil does talk to Edith about Tom, but not in specific words (again, she only does so with Mary because Mary finds out about it). When Sybil and Edith are commiserating about not wanting to go back to the way things were before the war, she tells Edith she's found a way to escape.

Edited February 9, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Roseanna]

Moreover, if they are especially close, why does Mary not go to Sybil when Pamuk dies instead of Cora,

 

Mary went to Anna whom she trusted most - and who wouldn't judge her. 

 

Because they couldn't carry Pamuk, it was Anna who suggested Cora because she had "as much to lose" as Mary, meaning probably that any shame Mary brought to herself would also suffered by her family and it was Cora's interests to shield the family honor, in order to get not only Mary but all her daughters to married off. (How Mary could wake Cora without also Robert waking up, is a mystery.) 

 

In addition, Cora was an adult woman whereas Sybil was a teenager who hadn't even had her season (that is easy to forget because the actress seems older). Whereas Cora condemned Mary as "damaged goods" because she had lain with a man outside wedlock, to Sybil it would have been much worse - a matter that was quite outside her knowledge and understanding. 

[Roseanna]

As far as telling Mary about wanting her child to be christened at Downton, this didn’t come across to me as Sybil giving a special confidence to Mary so much as she was the one in the room at the time. Besides, Mary is similar to Violet and Robert in her opinion of Tom before Sybil dies. Even if Sybil had made a specific choice to tell Mary about it rather than Edith, it would make sense considering after Edith was jilted two episodes prior, she voices her envy of her pregnancy in an emotional outburst.

 

But why was Mary in the same room as the pregnant Sybil? It may have been due that Mary, being a married woman herself, was more interested than Edith in Sybil's pregnancy as she hoped to have a baby soon herself. For that reason it was also natural that she also showed more interest in Sybbie afterwards than Edith. (Of course, many childless aunts are crazy about nephews and nieces, but Edith after being jilted had better become interested in matters outside the family.)

 

Also, Sybil probably knew that if anything happened to her, Mary was the one who could oppose Robert. Cora could have done it also, but at that time Edith's opinion had no value in the family, so it would have been useless of Sybil to ask for her help.

 

I read a bit of scripts in Amazon, and Fellowes says that Mary, having opposed Sybil marriage with Tom, accepted it when it was done, whereas Matthew revealed his prejudices which he would have denied by continuing to call Tom "a chauffeur".

 

In any case, both Mary and Edith attended at Sybil and Tom's wedding in Dublin, unlike Robert and Cora.         

[AndySmith]

But why was Mary in the same room as the pregnant Sybil? It may have been due that Mary, being a married woman herself, was more interested than Edith in Sybil's pregnancy as she hoped to have a baby soon herself.

 

Maybe she cared about her sister, even though she can come across as a fabulous bitch on wheels?

 

Cora could have done it also, but at that time Edith's opinion had no value in the family

 

Even with all of her recent accomplishments, I still think Edith has a ways to go before she is on the same level as Mary in that regard.

[skyways]

True. Besides with Mary being the eldest she is always 'taking charge' of situations and I like that about her. She speaks up for the family.

[Roseanna]

Maybe she cared about her sister, even though she can come across as a fabulous bitch on wheels?

 

 

Even with all of her recent accomplishments, I still think Edith has a ways to go before she is on the same level as Mary in that regard.

 

Nobody has ever claimed that Mary didn't care for Sybil, but how much she did we never knew as they never had opposite interests. In the one time when the situation of that kind was near, when Mary noticed that Sybil was beginning to develop a crush on Matthew, she very speedily claimed him as her own. There was nothing wrong in this as Matthew was in love in mary and she in him. But if that hadn't been the case, it would have been interesting to see how Mary had coped with her liitle sister as a future Countess.

 

As for accomplishments, Mary hasn't actually accomplished anything but got all for free: she married Matthew due to Laviania's death, Downton was saved by Lavinia's father's money she inherited Matthew who had already made the critical decisions to modernize agriculture). She can only be given credit for saving pigs with Blake - and even then it was Blake who knew what to do.

 

Instead, Edith sent a letter to the paper against the opinion of her father and thereby got Gregson's attention and he made her a columnist. Recently she edited the issue of the magazine (which she had inherited from her lover). That isn't much, but it's something.

 

Both have had it fairly easy compared to Gwen who had learn to type and to try many times until finally getting a job as a secretary. And for that Fellowes made Gwen to give all credit to Sybil! Sure, Sybil helped and encouraged Gwen but it was she who convinced the telephone man to hire her.    

[AndySmith]

Nobody has ever claimed that Mary didn't care for Sybil, but how much she did we never knew as they never had opposite interests

 

Yes but if people are going to speculate on what characters feel and think even if there is no real basis for any of that, then it should be fine to infer the same thing.

 

The issue isn't accomplishments. The point is even with whatever she has done, I don't believe Edith's opinions/ideas/voice/whatever hold as much sway with the family as Mary's do.

[TheGreenKnight]

Of course Edith's opinions do not hold sway, because she is not inheriting the estate and will not be the manager of Downton. This has nothing to do with Mary's opinions being intelligent and valuable--because they often aren't--and everything to do with her being the eldest and the daughter who married the heir.

[AndySmith]

I think that doesn't give enough credit the rest of the whole family. Granted, this is the Grantham family, but still. I doubt they just see her as just the mother of the heir to Downton and the co-manager of the estate.

[Roseanna]

I think that doesn't give enough credit the rest of the whole family. Granted, this is the Grantham family, but still. I doubt they just see her as just the mother of the heir to Downton and the co-manager of the estate.

 

Yes, they saw Mary a bully by nature that nobody can resist, as Robert joked when he was sick. Therefore they had to make a decision about the behind her back.

 

Poor George! And still more his future wife!

[AndySmith]

Bully is a bit harsh, I'd say strong and opinionated. Any why poor George? To each their own, I guess.

[TheGreenKnight]

They've referred to Mary as a bully on the show, so it's not just an opinion really.

[AndySmith]

And people refer to strong women as bitches. I still choose to see her as strong and opinionated. Mileage varies, I guess.

[SusanSunflower]

... it's the mean spirited or unnecessarily competitive quality that makes the difference... I think Mary crosses the line more often than Edith whose comments usually aren't nearly as sharp or "mean" 

Edited February 10, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[AndySmith]

Yes but we're talking about Mary overall, not specifically her relationship with Edith.