Mary and Edith, Edith and Mary

[ZoloftBlob]

Well, I think Robert not being happy about it might have been an issue considering Matthew and Robert had a fairly warm relationship. And I'd argue that Edith and Cora did care but knew their place in the argument. No one really prefers being driven from their home after all.

 

And yes. He took the loophole, in part because the divorce would have happened that much sooner. I think part of my affection for Matthew is that he's possibly the only genuine nice guy this family produced.

[ZulaMay]

I think Edith and Cora cared, but they cared more about respecting Matthew's wishes and maintaining harmony in the family.  In other words, they cared more about the people in the house than they did about the house itself.  Which is more than I can say for Mary.  

 

And honestly, neither seemed particularly concerned about it.  Edith was supposed to be moving into her own home:  smaller, but enough for her.  Cora's attitude was "have gun will travel."

 

It wasn't this family that produced Nice Guy Matthew.  It was Isobel Crawley.  Violet might be a favorite character, but compare the son she raised to the one Isobel raised.  I think we know who won that particular contest.

Edited August 27, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Badger]

Mr. Swire knew about the fact that Matthew was in love with Mary and not Lavinia because Lavinia told him.  He says that in the letter or at least he says he knows what transpired between them.    That's why he tells him not to worry that he is putting him  in the will under false pretenses.

 

The thing is, I don't think Lavinia realized she was going to die that day.  All indications were that she was going to make a full recovery and the letter was probably meant to tell her father that she was going to call off the engagement but that she bore no ill will towards Matthew and that she thought it was for the best.

 

I think for Mary it was all about loyalty to the family.  The family is in trouble, you have the means to make the trouble go away, so why aren't you helping?

 

I disagree that Matthew was the better person.  When he first came, he was an elitist snob who treated the servants or at least Molesley with contempt.  But he came around and although I imagine if he had lived he would have really streamlined the staff, he no longer thought of them as stupid and useless.  In some ways, he was like Sarah Bunting but unlike her, he was able to see past his initial prejudices.

 

Robert's biggest fault is that he is way overprotective of the women in his family and even in some ways of the women in his employ.  Remember after the Pamuk incident he told Carson to make sure the footmen (especially Thomas) didn't get too indelicate (paraphrasing) because it might bother the female staff.  But as Branson said, he was a very good employer and cared very much for the people who worked for him either in service or as tenant farmers.  After all, he did pay off Farmer Drew's debt.  

  

[ZulaMay]

Matthew was elitist for about three episodes, maybe two, before he got over his attitude.  After that he did his best to be the heir they wanted/needed and to be a loyal member of the family.  But being Middle Class he had different morals and priorities than they did, and there is nothing wrong with that.  He was the heir but he was raised with certain solid ethics and principles, a different but equally valid world view, and he had every right to maintain that.  He should not have to conform completely to their way of thinking and life.  

 

As I recall the letter from Swire said something along the lines of "I know you two were having problems."  Did it say that she told him "what happened"?  I don't remember it saying that.  And even if she was willing to let him go and break it off without ill will?  She should not have had to witness him cheating on her before she did so.  He owed her fidelity right up to the moment he manned up and broke it off or she did it for him.

 

I don't think we have any proof whatsoever that Lavinia told her father about that kiss.  If anything she would withhold the info from him in order to protect Matthew and preserve his reputation with her father to some degree.  Is it possible she told him?  Yes.  But it is by no means certain and the letter from him never referenced it at all.  There is difference between her calling it off because he was still hung up on someone else, and her calling it off after seeing him cheat on her right before their would-be wedding.  At that point, Matthew did not KNOW that Lavinia was going to let him go.  He did it believing she trusted him to follow through on the promise he made to her.

 

As for loyalty to the family? Mary might have been motivated by that but she was also motivated by her own desires, as evidenced by very specific things that she said:  "I will be Countess of Grantham and IMO the Countess lives at Downton," "I am losing my home because you won't take the money," "I think the ten-bedroom house will be too cramped."  And given that her family was taken a markedly different attitude toward the downsizing, she wasn't pressing their case.  As I said, Cora, Edith and Sybil didn't care and Robert understood and respected Matthew's choice of honor over money.  

 

If family loyalty meant everything to Mary, she wouldn't treat her sister like crap, talk smack about her mother's American family behind their back and then grub for their money, or be so disrespectful of her husband's scruples and wishes.  They are her family too.  It was as much about HER as them.  More so, IMO.

Edited August 27, 2014 by ZulaMay

[AZChristian]

I never saw Matthew as elitist at the beginning - quite the opposite.  He wanted to continue working as a lawyer, riding his bike to work, not needing a valet to help him dress, etc.  It was only after he got a taste of the high life - and a talking-to from Robert about the responsibility of the elite to make jobs possible for the servants - that he started buying into it.

 

Isn't it funny how we can all watch the same show and have such differences of opinion?   

[ZoloftBlob]

I think Matthew's reaction to Mosely and the servants wasn't elitist, per se, but definitely unkind, which he seemed to realize. He thought Mosely's job was silly because he was raised to well... Dress himself without constant assistance, and history kinda sides with him. The reality of Mosely's job is that he picks up after a rich man. That Matthew thought he was fully capable of putting on his own cufflinks isn't elitist. But telling Mosely his job was silly and unmanly was extremely rude... And he did pick up on that.

Mary is all about family and in some ways I do think that's her savings grace. Point- unless Mary is dramatically rewritten as extremely cruel, I can't ever see her ratting out Edith having ababy out of wedlock. I can certainly see her taunting the hell out of Edith privately but let the public know Edith's shame?

And that might be why the Pamuk incident could end up providing the match forMary to set Edith on fire... Because Edith did break the code of "keep it in the family".

Eta - I don't know that "elitist" is the right term, but Matthew was a bit stuck up about being a middle class lawyer who worked for a living while the peerage side of the family, including the servants looked down on him as "not a gentleman" so I think it went both ways.

Edited August 27, 2014 by ZoloftBlob

[ZulaMay]

Mary is all about family in some ways but in many ways she is all about herself.  Her family (Edith excepted) has been extraordinarily good to her and focused on her happiness far more than Edith's.  They have earned her loyalty.  Edith?  I think she is loyal to them and cares about their happiness and well being as much as Mary does.  Yes, she did break the code with Mary but she is certainly not in the habit of it.  Overall, she is a lot better to her family than they are to her.  Her parents really haven't earned her devotion and God knows Mary hasn't.

 

No, I don't think Mary will rat out Edith.  Michelle says they have "moved past that stage."  And by that I take it to mean that they are older and more mature now and would not resort to such tactics.  But in S1?  She was still very much "in that stage".

[DeepRunner]

No, I don't think Mary will rat out Edith.  Michelle says they have "moved past that stage."  And by that I take it to mean that they are older and more mature now and would not resort to such tactics.  But in S1?  She was still very much "in that stage".

 

Mary doesn't rat out Edith, ONLY IF it is in her best interest not to. What we don't know is what problems Fellowes and Neame will develop for Edith; conflict with Mary is pretty low fruit, and, if the stakes are right for Mary, then it is a good possibility that she would.

[Tetraneutron]

There seems to be a casting of Edith and Mary into opposite roles in this thread: the nice underdog and the evil Queen Bee. Joey Potter and Regina George. And I don't see it.

 

I also don't think the character of Mary would be better served if she were as unselfish and polite as people want her to be. It would be like some horrible Victorian tract for children. The good girl gets rewarded for displaying her feminine virtues, and the bad gir, who shows her ankles to the boys and wants for hereslf is punished. Not only do I think we're beyond that as an audience, but it would turn Mary into Lavinia. Lavinia was always putting other people's happiness before her own and never wanted anything for herself, and when other people disliked her, she accepted it with grace, before dying nobly and getiing out of everyone's way. Could you imagine watching a show where Lavinia was the main character? Wouldn't that be the dullest thing ever? I'd much rather see someone with self-respect who wants things and fights for them.

 

And Mary's goals aren't entirely selfish, really. She wants for her estate to be restored to all its glory, and for her family to run it. Especially then, that would have been seen as benefitting the family and the community, not just her. And she's willing to put in the work for it. And she treats the servants well. On TV, frequently the worst thing a woman can be is someone who's self-confident and acts like she doesn't have to settle.

 

And why would Mary rat out Edith? What would it get her to do it? They're both so beyond squabbling over a boy (I assume that's what will happen) I don't even know why the show would go there.  Mary has everything: the estate, the heir, the money, the closest thing she can to the title, a secure position in society. If she wants to marry again, she's free to pick whoever she wants without worrying about Downton. Edith has to scramble. She's an old maid. She has no money and no position (and that's not even getting into the fact that she'd have to never see her daughter again). She has nothing. Another Gregson might fall in love with her, but what are the odds? And would he accept her child? What could Mary and Edith possibly fight over?

 

Mary doesn't rat out Edith, ONLY IF it is in her best interest not to.

 

And doesn't that speak horribly of Edith? Not only did she (potentially) screw over Mary, but if word got out Mary might never have married and the Crawley would have lost Downton and their money. She screwed over her father, too. (Cora and Sybil didn't care). And for what? It's not like Edith was being morally righteous, since she kissed a married man.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Obviously

[DeepRunner]

@Obviously, I never claimed Edith was an innocent. I have noted that people have taken sides in the debate. (I do sorta wonder, if Edith is Joey Potter, does that make Strallen and Gregson, Dawson and Pacey? ;-) ) When I said the stakes have to be right for Mary to divulge, I was thinking strictly in terms of retaliation for something Edith will do. Since we don't know how things will proceed between the characters in future seasons, we can't say for sure whether it will happen or not.

 

I also have talked about Mary's good points. She DOES have them. She showed incredible growth as a character in S2, But her less-than-approving comments about, and interactions with, Edith, who, to be fair, and as you note, has nothing, make her less attractive as a character to some fans of DA, which I think we all are.

 

Edith has had some pretty crushing defeats as a character; people, whether watching a show, reading a book, or observing the life of someone they know, tend to be more sympathetic toward such. To be fair, Mary has struggled with three "great matters"--the entail, Pamuk, and Matthew's death. Mary's resilience is admirable. But there have been times when the contrasts between their character experiences have caused some to say, "huh..." 

Edited August 27, 2014 by DeepRunner

[ZulaMay]

Obviously, I never said I think Mary should be like Lavinia.  God no!  I hated how they turned Lavinia into a roll-over-and-die martyr at the end, because before that she had some backbone.  There is nothing wrong with the heroine being assertive and flawed.  I just think Mary crosses the line from "assertive" to "entitled and manipulative", and from "flawed" into "narcissistic and mean."

 

Also, IMO it Mary who risked her own reputation and that of her family by sleeping with Pamuk in the first place.  If he hadn't died he might very well have boasted of his conquest and started the rumor mill.  She did it out of "lust and a need for excitement" (her words to Matthew).  She risked their rep because boredom and hormones and to some degree vanity got the better of her.  Edith then risked it because her (very understandable) pain and anger got the better of her.  But at the end of the day they both got carried away, lost control and did something that posed a risk to the whole family.

 

As for the family losing the family money and estate if Mary never married?  I am not sure what you mean.  The only way for them to keep it was for ONE of the daughters to marry Matthew.  And that daughter didn't have to be Mary.  It could have been Sybil:  beautiful, charming, virginal, and probably more of a match for Matthew in terms of their (more progressive and less status-conscious) world views. Mary wasn't their only shot at Downton.

 

And Mary rejected Matthew.  She was rude to him.  She told her father she wouldn't marry him just because they wanted her to.  Which means SHE was willing to let the family lose the estate because she didn't want to marry Middle Class Matthew. Even when she was engaged to Patrick, she was going to marry him "if nothing better came along."  She was placing her own prospects, wealth and status over keeping Downton in the family.  And IMO she was motivated by the same things in S3 when she pressured him to take the money.  It was "her" home, and "she" was going to be Countess of Grantham and live in it.

 

And you're right, what is there left for Mary and Edith to fight about?  Mary has everything and Edith has nothing.  She won.  In the long run, Edith didn't keep Mary from getting it all.  So why, then, can't Mary let it go and be decent to her sister?  Why can she not spare her a bit of sympathy or forbearance?  Cora could forgive Robert for SYBIL, but Mary can't forgive Edith for a decade-old betrayal that cost her nothing in the long run? She already exacted her pound of flesh from Edith, and then some, and Edith is still living with the consequences.  Why is she clinging to her resentment?

 

And that's my problem with Mary.  She has everything.  Edith has nothing, and Sybil and Lavinia are dead.  Many women of her generation were left widowed or spinsters because of the War.  Many of her fellow Toffs have lost their wealth and/or homes.  Mary should have some perspective.  She should be counting her blessings and paying it forward.  But she still acts like a petty tyrant with her only living (and far less fortunate) sister and loves to kick her when she's down.  It's appalling.  

Edited August 28, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Andorra]

Well, I don't see Mary being so unforgiving to Edith or clinging to the old thing with the Turkish ambassador. I only see their relationship as an old habit of battling and rivalry not of torture or deliberate cruelty.

I also don't think Edith is particularly suffering from Mary's treatment, in the contrary, I think she's searching to give her the same as often as she can.

 

I think seeing Mary as evil is a bit too much. She's not at her best when it comes to her sister and she is - as I said - flawed. She does feel entitled, yes and she is ambitious for herself, but I'm absolutely certain she would never willingly ruin her sister's life or be cruel where it really matters. Unlike Edith, she thinks before she does things. Edith is much more impulsive and emotional and therefor made some really bad decisions (writing to the Turkish ambassador, kissing Mr. Drake, sleeping with Michael Gregson). Mary is more rational and therefor SHE wouldn't ruin her sister out of emotion. Her only badness is behaving badly towards her sister.

[ZulaMay]

I don't see Mary as evil, but I don't think what Edith did with the letter was evil either.  It's not that black and white.

 

Nor do I see the sisters as being so black and white in personality:  Edith is more emotional, but Mary, though often more pragmatic and calculating, also makes bad decisions when she acts on her emotions and impulses.  She does not always think things through: Pamuk, her first breakup with Matthew (which she regretted for years), almost letting him go again over the money (which she also would have regretted I imagine).  She's been the "author of her own misfortune," as Mrs. Hughes said.

 

And while I agree her treatment of her sister is her worst behavior, she mistreats other people too.  She was insensitive and manipulative with Matthew over the Swire money.  She let Richard buy her the "real house with an estate" she wanted and then insulted it and him.  She is disrespectful to her mother about being American, and rather rude about her American relatives whose money kept her house standing.  She has lashed out at Carson, who is almost slavishy devoted to her.

 

One thing Mary does that Edith doesn't is mistreat people who have been loving and devoted to her.  Aside from a couple of nasty comments to Sybil in S1 (and even Sybil was nicer to Mary than she was to Edith), Edith has not done that.  If you are good to her, she will be good in return.  Mary?  Not so much.

 

And I don't see Edith sniping at Mary any more.  Mary has supplied most of the insults and nastiness ince S1.  Being very rude and insensitive about Gregson a couple of times, snapping at Edith to "stop moaning," insulting her behind her back.  I can't think of an example of Edith being so nasty for a long time now.  Nor does she insult her sister behind her back the way Mary does to her ("I'd rather sleep on the roof than share a room with her," "she's about as mysterious as a bucket.").

 

Perhaps Edith WANTS to do the same but unlike in S1, she doesn't.  She is snarky sometimes in a milder way:  not outright nasty.   And even if she is dying to really let Mary have it, the fact is she doesn't.   Perhaps the thought crosses her mind, but she bites her tongue.  She doesn't give into the temptation to be nasty.  She has let go of it enough not to really stir the pot, whereas Mary hasn't.   Perhaps because Mary can get away with it, but that's not a good excuse.  Just because she can doesn't mean she should.

 

IMO not curbing your tongue is a form of impulsiveness and lack of self-control, one that most parents try to teach their children to suppress.  "If you can't say anything nice" and all that.  The fact is that Edith's behavior toward Mary has improved a lot since S1, even if it isn't perfect and even if she still doesn't like her.  Mary's has improved very little if at all.  Is it cruel? Perhaps not, but it is mean-spritied and hurtful nonetheless.

 

And it's not true Mary wouldn't have ruined her sister out of emotion.  She actually did it.  She did act out of emotion when she lied to Anthony to ruin his proposal.    She was angry and vengeful.  And in lying to him she ruined her sister's marital prospects.  She knew Edith had not had other proposals and had no other prospects.  I agree she would not do so now (and neither would Edith), but in S1 she would do it and did do it.  I think both sisters showed a combination of cold calculation and seething emotion.   Edith was angry, so she took vengeance.  Same with Mary.

Edited August 28, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Tetraneutron]

 

She told her father she wouldn't marry him just because they wanted her to.  Which means SHE was willing to let the family lose the estate because she didn't want to marry Middle Class Matthew.

That's mischaracterising the situation. Mary didn't care about Matthew's social class or money. She also rejected Sir Richard, who was extremely rich (only accepting when it looked like Matthew was gone for good and she'd have to suck it up and marry someone), and rejected Evelyn Napier (money and a title) and Lord Gillingham (ditto). She wants to marry for love.

 

 

The only way for them to keep it was for ONE of the daughters to marry Matthew.  And that daughter didn't have to be Mary.  It could have been Sybil:  beautiful, charming, virginal, and probably more of a match for Matthew in terms of their (more progressive and less status-conscious) world views. Mary wasn't their only shot at Downton.

Robert isn't a pimp. Throwing his daughters at the guy who could save the estate would make the Crawleys awful people and Downton a different (probably more interesting, but still) show. The show, in its rose-coloured depiction of the early 20th century, has been consistent about not forcing the Crawleys into "suitable" marriages if they don't want them. So that was their attitude - meet him, get to know him, and if you can see yourself being happy, then we can save the estate. Saying to Matthew, "Here's my harem, pick your favourite," is not the show we're watching. And when Edith made her sad and clumsy play for Matthew, Robert and Cora let her. So it's not as if they were preventing Matthew from falling in love with one of the other girls if that's what he wanted. They weren't saying to Edith, "Back off, he's Mary's."

 

(As for Sybil, she wasn't out when Matthew first met them, leaving her completely out of bounds as a possible wife. And she wouldn't care about the estate or saving it. And wouldn't have fallen for someone who wasn't political and represented everything about the old ways that she was trying to change). 

Edited August 28, 2014 by Obviously

[ZoloftBlob]

Sybil wasn't out at the time Matthew first showed up but, it's not really a valid arguement. She was only "off limits" socially for a short period of time. Had there been a spark between them, I really don't think the six months or so before Sybil's coming out would have been a deal breaker.

[ZulaMay]

If word got out Mary might never have married and the Crawley would have lost Downton and their money.

 

I was responding to this statement that you said above.  That Mary marrying Matthew - or anyone - was the only way for the Crawleys to keep Downton and their money.  But it wasn't.  Her marrying someone else wouldn't have made a bit of difference with regard to Downton.  Matthew would still have gotten it all.

 

Sure, Sybil wasn't "out" when Matthew arrived but she came out only shortly thereafter and would have been old enough to get engaged to him.  I agree they didn't "pimp out" their daughters, but Violet and Cora were angling for Mary to marry Matthew from the minute he arrived.  They could have maneuvered to get him and Sybil together, given all the advantages she had in terms of looks and personality.  They could have tried to kindle a spark between them when Mary showed no interest, encourage it in some way.  But they never did.  

 

Mary noticed when Sybil made moon eyes at Matthew after that Count at Ripon.  She saw it and her eyes went wide.  Then that night she teased him about "breaking Sybil's heart," flirted with him and kissed him and he proposed.  She had never gone after him before that.  Then when she realized Sybil could be a potential "threat" and immediately went in for the kill. Go back and watch that scene if you don't believe me.

 

Sybil was certainly a potential contender and he was suitable for her.  He was the heir but he was progressive and tolerant and had experience of the outside world.  He would not have prevented her from getting involved politically.  As for her not caring about saving the estate?  I think she would take an interest in the estate, just in different ways.  She'd be interested in using their influence and money to help the tenants and locals, maybe advance medical care and education.  And she certainly wouldn't have impeded Matthew from doing his job as Earl and manager of Downton.

 

Even in S4 Mary told Tony that "she and Matthew were thrown at each others heads from the moment he arrived."  And that's true.  Everyone wanted that marriage:  Cora, Violet. Carson, and Robert (although of course he wouldn't have forced her).  When Lavinia arrived she was treated as an usurper by Violet and Carson.  It was like Matthew had Mary's name stamped on his forehead from Day One.  

 

And Mary was turned off by Matthew being Middle Class.  She told her mother she wouldn't marry a men who didn't know how to "hold his fork like a gentleman."  And she also balked at marrying him twice when she thought he might not bring the money and estate and status to the table.  Of course she cared about social class and money.  One reason she got turned off of Richard was because he was Nouveau Riche.  She turned up her nose at Haxby because they'd have to buy furniture instead of inheriting it like "her kind" did.  She said it was vulgar.

 

Sure, she wanted to marry for love.  She also wanted the status and wealth.  She wanted all of it.  She didn't want one without the other:  it was the whole package or nothing.

Edited August 28, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Constantinople]

Mary is all about family and in some ways I do think that's her savings grace. Point- unless Mary is dramatically rewritten as extremely cruel, I can't ever see her ratting out Edith having ababy out of wedlock. I can certainly see her taunting the hell out of Edith privately but let the public know Edith's shame?

And that might be why the Pamuk incident could end up providing the match for Mary to set Edith on fire... Because Edith did break the code of "keep it in the family".

"Keep it in the family" is a convenient and self-serving code of conduct for the family favorite, particularly when the family favorite takes advantage to shit all over another family member.

Moreover, Mary doesn't always keep it in the family. In the S1 finale, she told Strallan that Edith had been making fun of an anticipated marriage proposal from a middle aged man, and let Strallan know in no uncertain terms that Edith was referring to Strallan.

Arguably Mary did it to get back at Edith for writing to the Turkish ambassador about Pamuk's death. However, "You started it" isn't a particularly mature response. Moreover, not only did Mary break family ranks, she lied to do so. Edith at least told the truth.

It's also possible Mary did this in part as a response to botching up her engagement to Matthew, but I don't recall the chronology of that episode so well.

That being said, I tend to doubt that Mary would rat out Edith about the love child.

[DeepRunner]

Here is Michelle Dockery talking about Mary:

 

".... She's just feeling her way through things, really. She's still being very impulsive. I love that about her, that she doesn't always think things through. She'll make a decision and she goes with it, and then often, she'll regret it afterwards or think, in hindsight, she could have dealt with it better. I love that about her. It's a very human quality."

Source:

 

 http://www.christiantoday.com/article/downton.abbey.season.5.spoilers.main.actress.joanne.froggart.teases.fans.detail/40016.htm

 

That reminds me of her exchange with the ghastly Duke of Crowborough, when Bates found them around Thomas's room: "I always apologize when I'm in the wrong." There is a very humane side to Mary in many instances.

 

That said, I had considered mentioning what @Constantinople said about Mary and Strallen. Mary settled scores with Edith, and crushed her doing it. Edith very much wanted to marry Strallen. Maybe she thought he was the last best chance, since she had most likely done the Season a couple of times by the time she met him. Mary raising her champagne glass to Edith after wrecking the relationship was a "This-is-what-happens-when-you-screw-with-me-Edith" taunt.  

[Andorra]

I think the main reason why Mary was the candidate for Mattew was, that he was so obviously interested in her. They quarrelled, but everyone with eyes in his head could see that he was intrigued by her and not by Edith or Sybil.

Had he fallen for one of the other girls, there would have been no opposition from the family I'm sure.

[Tetraneutron]

 

 

If word got out Mary might never have married and the Crawley would have lost Downton and their money.

I was responding to this statement that you said above.  That Mary marrying Matthew - or anyone - was the only way for the Crawleys to keep Downton and their money.  But it wasn't.  Her marrying someone else wouldn't have made a bit of difference with regard to Downton.  Matthew would still have gotten it all.

 

Yes. But it still mattered because it would have affected in Matthew would marry her. And even if he chooses not to (for whatever reason) is still hurts the family if word gets out. It's the difference between the Crawley girls, Mary especially, making a match with a rich and/or titled man who can give her a good life, or having to accept the dregs like Sir Richard. It can mean a big difference in how Robert and Cora are treated. It affected Edith too. Having a scandal attached to the family is just the sort of thing that would scare off the Strallan types needing to settle for a wife. That's why everyone was so scared. Why Robert's first instinct was to ship her to America and try to find some Midwestern cowboy. (Basically a fate worse than death for these snobs). Worst case scenario, Mary and Edith are run out of town, Matthew wants nothing to do with them once he's Earl, and turfs them from the estate, and they're outcasts in society. None of that happened, but it COULD have. 

 

Edith has this whole life that no one in her immediate family knows about. As far as her parents and sister are concerned, she's had no relationship since getting dumped by Strallan. There was some married guy who she had a crush on and she took it weirdly hard when he left. 

 

Her parents and Mary would probably be pretty surprised to learn that a man (a decent, albeit middle class) man was so in love with her he wanted to move to Germany for a year just so he could marry her. I wasn't sure if Mary's "Edith is as mysterious as a bucket" was supposed to be ironic or not - because Edith has this whole life and big secret Mary knows nothing about.

 

Honestly, I kind of hope Edith and Mary do have something to fight over next season, because Mary's three interchangeable suitors are so dull. Her learning how to run an estate is a tiny part of the show, and for now Downton is solvent. She needs something with stakes in her life. 

[ZulaMay]

Andorra, Even if Matthew had seemed "intrigued by Mary" at first, it's not like the family knew he was in love with her. He never made a real play for her.  And she had rejected the idea anyway.  Even if they knew he had been interested in Mary, they had no reason to think he was so hung up on her that he wouldn't consider someone else.  It was not nearly that far along at that point.

 

Perhaps there was no "spark" between him and Sybil, but they never thought to try to kindle one.  Once Mary said she didn't want him, they could have turned to the next option.  If keeping Downton in the family was so important to them, why didn't they?  It's not like Violet doesn't meddle in the love lives of her grandchildren, encouraging one romance and discouraging another.   She did it with M/M, with Edith and with Sybil.  But neither she nor Cora ever tried to play matchmaker between Matthew and Sybil, even though she was actually a very good fit for him.  Had Violet The Great made an effort, something might have come of it.

 

Obviously, I am not sure what you mean when you say "the difference between the Crawley girls" and then proceed to talk about Mary making a good match.  A scandal attaching to any of the sisters would have hurt the family and their prospects.  

 

You argue that they were focused on making a good match for Mary FIRST so that the other girls would have prospects, but that's not borne out by what we saw on the show.  I don't recall Cora, Robert or Violet EVER talking about the scandal impacting Edith or Sybil's marital prospects. First, they all seemed to assume that Edith would not have any prospects at all anyway, scandal or no scandal.  They talked about her being a spinster who would care for them in their old age.   With Sybil, Cora said "we don't need to worry about her."    

 

Through all the years that S2 covered, not once did they take any steps to marry off either of their other daughters.  Not even once Mary was safely engaged to Rich Richard. And it wasn't because of the war.  Engagements and marriages proceeded as usual during the war (as we saw with Mary and Matthew, both of whom got engaged while it was raging).  If they were so concerned about the prospects of the others, why then did they not turn to focus on the others once Mary was engaged?  The truth is even after that they still just focused on Mary, for years.  Oh, except Violet set up a meeting between Edith and Anthony......in 1920.

 

"Edith has this whole life that no one in her immediate family knows about. As far as her parents and sister are concerned, she's had no relationship since getting dumped by Strallan. There was some married guy who she had a crush on and she took it weirdly hard when he left."

 

This is totally mischaracterizing the situation, making it sound like she was just pathetically crushing on a guy who had no interest in her.  First, they didn't know he was married.  They knew that he pursued her to Scotland.  Mary could see that he was after Edith (she even mocked him about it) and even asked Matthew if he thought Michael might propose.  

 

Mary told Robert in 4.01 that she knew Edith had been seeing Michael since that time, which would have been at least six months earlier.  Edith brought Michael to the house party, where they tried the entire time to get Robert to talk to him so Michael could make a good impression.  But Robert kept avoiding him (until Michael saved his ass in the poker game) because he "thought she could do better."  They were aware that it was a fairly serious courtship.

 

If they didn't know more about it, that's because they don't give a damn about Edith's life and never ask about it.  And there is nothing "weird" about her still being sad about his disappearance.  Robert didn't seem to think so when he talked to her about it:  he even asked if he should find someone to try to look for him.  If they can be sensitive to Mary being hung up on Matthew for five years after they broke up, they can be sensitive to Edith for being sad for a year and a half after her serious suitor disappeared.  

Edited August 29, 2014 by ZulaMay

[t7686]

This thread is a great read. I find the relationship between Mary and Edith one of the better parts to the show and so interesting. While I have no great love of Mary (sans season 2 when her character softened a little) I don't think she's always 100% terrible to Edith. I'm re-watching some episodes and I'm about half way through with the one where Edith is suppose to get married. In this episode, at least, Mary's very kind to Edith. When the family goes to ride off and see the smaller home they're planning to move into after leaving Downton she brightly asks Edith to ride with her and Matthew. At another point when she thinks all hope is lost and she and her family are going to lose their home, she makes a point to say that they shouldn't ruin Edith's day and then when Matthew gets his deus ex machina letter from Luvinia's father, they both agree not to steal Edith's thunder with the news that Downton will be saved. Lastly, right before going into the church to see Edith wed, Mary says that she wishes nothing but luck and happiness for Edith. All that said, I think that's really the only time I've seen Mary be genuinely nice to Edith.

 

 

ZulaMay said, "Even after Mary was safely engaged to Richard (for years), they never turned to focus on the others.  They just kept focusing on Mary.  So that argument really isn't borne out by what we see on the show."

I agree with others that the family overlooks Edith and focuses all their attention on Mary. Someone mentioned earlier on in the thread that Mary is just as hard to love as Edith was the first few seasons yet she's the prized oldest daughter for some reason. I wish Edith's parents would try to make an effort with her as you'd think they would with Sybil gone. I think it's a combination of bad luck for Edith and the fact that she's taken for granted. The way her personality is, she's the sort of person who's loyal to a fault. You can treat her like crap and she'll stick around, won't say anything about it sans a passive aggressive remark here and there. Mary on the other hand, I think, if you really pissed her off would cut you off in a second and never look back. Plus, she's not the sort to give her affection freely so when you have it, you want to fight to keep it. Edith, which I think was demonstrated with the guy trying to impersonate Patrick, isn't like that, she's somewhat desperate for someone to love her back.

 

Still, I like that Edith has a struggle. Right now it makes her much more interesting than Mary and her endless string of suitors.

[ZulaMay]

Yes, Mary was nice to Edith mid-S4, when she got married and after Sybil died.  But that's about the only time I've seen it.  And people like to say that Edith was snarky on Mary's wedding day, which is true.  But then Mary had so many people coming to wish her well and gape at her that day, and Edith didn't.  Cora didn't give her a lovely speech or call her "my beautiful daughter," Robert didn't come to wish her well, Sybil didn't tell her how romantic it all was.

 

But despite Edith being happy that it was finally "her day," she didn't forget her sisters.  Before the wedding she held their hands and said sincerely how wonderful it was that "all of them were married, all of them happy, and the first baby on the way."  

 

She was happy for herself but she was also glad that they were ALL happy and she made a point of saying it, on the one day that was about her.

[Tetraneutron]

 

This is totally mischaracterizing the situation, making it sound like she was just pathetically crushing on a guy who had no interest in her.  First, they didn't know he was married.  They knew that he pursued her to Scotland.  Mary could see that he was after Edith (she even mocked him about it) and even asked Matthew if he thought Michael might propose.

We're agreeing here. I know she wasn't pathetically crushing on a guy. But her parents and sister don't. The point is Edith has the whole life with Michael and later, the baby, that her parents and sister are completely clueless about. Matthew knew about Michael's intentions, and later Rosamond and Violet obviously did, but Robert, Cora, and Mary are completely in the dark about how serious it was between them.

 

 

 And there is nothing "weird" about her still being sad about his disappearance.  Robert didn't seem to think so when he talked to her about it:  he even asked if he should find someone to try to look for him.

That's what I was saying. When Michael came to the house, Robert didn't treat him like someone he had to vet as husband material. (With Tom, Sir Anthony, Matthew, Sir Richard, and that gay Duke from the first episode, Robert got deeply involved deciding whether they were suitable). When he offered to find him, it was with the sense that he was indulging his daughter, not finding a son-in-law. I know there's nothing weird about her still being sad about his disappearance. That's the whole point. Edith has something serious going on in her life, including a serious marriage proposal, and no one in her immediate family knew.

 

 

If they didn't know more about it, that's because they don't give a damn about Edith's life and never ask about it.

That seems like a valid interpretation, yes.

[DeepRunner]

Edith's love affairs, so to speak, have had a mix of mystery and heartbreak. There is something of Jane Eyre in Edith and Gregson's relationship. Gregson is Edith's boss. Soon, there is a moral dilemma; Gregson is a married man who wants to marry Edith, and the wife of the married man is claimed to be insane (gone mad). This is where the similarity ends. We only have Gregson's word for it that his wife is mad, ttbomk. Gregson then disappears in Germany, while Edith is left to care for their child Marigold, who he doesn't know about.

 

And of course, there was being "Stranded by Strallen" (sounds like a New Wave group) at the altar, in which the only happy party ended up being Violet. Rosamund clubbed Edith with a Strallen reference in S4.

 

Mary, otoh, has not had this sort of struggle. She was bedded in her own room by Pamuk without much resistance, then played "will they or won't they" with Matthew, then married Matthew, became a widow, and now has her pick of three dullards (I am still pulling for Napier, the most honorable of the lot). She did own up to the Pamuk incident to Cora, Robert, and Matthew. 

[ZulaMay]

When Michael came to the house, Robert didn't treat him like someone he had to vet as husband material. (With Tom, Sir Anthony, Matthew, Sir Richard, and that gay Duke from the first episode, Robert got deeply involved deciding whether they were suitable.

 

 

Robert knew Michael was serious enough to come to Scotland to pursue her and try to meet him and make a good impression throughout the house party.  True, he dismissed him just as he dismissed Anthony.  But given what happened with Tom, he should have known that his daughters might choose their own spouses without permission from him.  Just because he thought Edith could do better didn't mean Edith thought that.  See Again:  Tom and Anthony.

 

In other words, Robert was being a dim bulb as usual.  He should have treated Michael as a contender because it was pretty clear from their behavior that they were courting seriously enough to at least seek his approbation.

 

But otherwise, I think we agree.  I just think if they are impatient or puzzled with her lingering feelings about Michael, they really don't have an excuse because (a) there were signs that it was serious and (b) all they have to do is ask her and they'd know more. She wouldn't tell them about the baby or the divorce of course, but she could tell them that they had been in love and planning to marry.  Which is true.

Edited August 30, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Avaleigh]

From the S05.E05 Thread:

 

Edith has asked for attention and approval from her parents, always, and hasn't gotten it. She has asked through deeds, by trying to accomplish things and be helpful, and she gets no notice.

 

 

I disagree. As early as the first season there are examples of Cora praising Edith. When Strallan is over for dinner in the first season it is Edith that Cora praises for "saving the day" and it was Edith she thanked for looking after Strallan even though he'd basically been brought there for Mary. Cora was proud of Edith when she was praised by the general, she has been supportive of Edith's writing career, she was nice and welcoming to both of Edith's suitors, and she has comforted Edith in moments where Edith has needed her like when she was jilted. 

 

When Cora told Sybil she had been a great success at her debut, Edith pointed out that Cora never said such things to her

 

 

I think this was because Edith was not a successful debutante so that's why Cora didn't especially praise her about that in particular. It isn't as though she hasn't complimented her in other ways. The sisters are all pretty and talented in different ways so I don't know why Edith thinks it's wrong for them to be praised in different areas. 

 

Edith also seemed to see favoritism where there wasn't any. She'd accuse Cora of playing favorites by wondering about something like why Sybil was allowed to have a dress made and Cora responded simply that it was Sybil's turn, an indication that she would make an effort in general to be fair with the girls. 

 

One of several reasons I disagree with the idea that Edith was only mean to Mary because Mary was mean to her is that Edith would also have unnecessary attitude with Sybil who was unfailingly nice to her. Edith seemed like she was apt to be jealous whether she had legitimate reasons to be or not.

 

When she was jilted at the altar, which was partly his fault, he shrugs it off with "there's nothing to be done" and smokes his cigar.  If it had been Mary he would have been obsessing over it.

 

 

I disagree with this too. I don't think he would have obsessed over it at all. When he thought Mary was going to be tainted by scandal his attitude was that it would be better for her to be sent away. He wasn't obsessing over how to make Carlisle change his mind or trying to think of another way to make it so that his darling Mary could stay. He basically felt like there was nothing to be done and that she'd need to be moved out of the way so that she wouldn't bring the rest of the family down with her.

 

I also disagree that it was Robert's fault that Edith was jilted. That was Anthony's call to hurt and humiliate Edith in that way. Anthony was treated kindly by members of the family so it wasn't like he was facing a lifetime of icy receptions. Tom faced a lot more opposition than Anthony did and it still didn't keep him from marrying Sybil. I don't think that Robert or Violet should be blamed for Anthony's bad behavior. 

 

That happened way back in S1 when they were both adolescents and Mary was always a mean-ass bitch to her. too  But they're not adolescents any more.  Edith doesn't say nasty things to Mary or insult or provoke her, except when she asked to see her "sketches" from what they all knew was a sex trip.  And that was more teasing than anything.

 

 

The big thing to notice with the rivalry between Edith and Mary during the first two seasons is that Edith was the instigator on nearly every occasion. I can hardly think of any exceptions. Edith would prick and prick at Mary until Mary would finally have enough and deliver a sharp comment or action of her own. Their rivalry has continued throughout every season and I definitely disagree with the idea that Edith stopped being mean or giving as good as she gets since the first or second season. There are examples of Edith needling Mary in every single season. In the third season we had an Edith who couldn't even bring herself to be gracious on the day of her sister's wedding. Mary OTOH was willing to put aside their petty rivalry and genuinely wish Edith well on the day of Edith's aborted wedding to Strallan. In the fourth season we had Edith needling Mary about Gillingham and naturally this season Edith is the only character who tries to put Mary on blast about her "sketching" holiday because for whatever reason Edith has always taken an obvious interest in Mary's love life.

 

I'm really just scratching the surface here but the reason I found it difficult to warm to Edith during the first couple of seasons was because it seemed like she was usually the person who was starting these petty arguments and seemed jealous of both sisters. I still remember how happy Edith was when she saw Mary's look of pain upon hearing about Matthew's engagement to Lavinia. Mary at least was sympathetic when Edith was jilted by Strallan. 

 

Edith has brought a lot of her unhappiness on herself and I feel like there is a tendency to blame other characters for Edith's problems. In the first season Edith did something to ensure that her elder sister's reputation would be permanently tarnished. Her sister retaliated but not in such a way that damaged all of Edith's prospects as Edith tried to do to Mary. They weren't at all even after Mary sabotaged the relationship with Strallan. That being said, that's the first season, moving on. The point for bringing it up is to show that Edith started a situation between herself and Mary by inserting herself into the Pamuk drama and trying to ruin her sister's reputation. In the second season we had Edith making snide comments about a newspaper man she'd never met but she knew her sister was interested in--I've said it before and I'll say it again--Mary and Edith are actually a lot alike.

 

Also in the second season I would say that Edith brings about her own unhappiness by choosing to get involved with a married farmer. Then suddenly she's crying the blues because the farmer's wife doesn't want her to come over there anymore. And this is after the farmer's wife was kind enough to give Edith food and work clothes and all around welcome her into her home. 

 

In the third season I feel that Edith's actions were the main factor in Anthony breaking off the engagement as opposed to it being about Robert who was IMO at worst lukewarm about the upcoming marriage. As if he's the first father to ever be in the position where he isn't wild about his daughter's choice of husband. If Anthony had loved Edith enough he would have been content with the fact that the two people who were opposed to the union were still polite and decent to him and likely would have warmed to him over time. (Look at how far the Isobel/Violet relationship has come. Tom and Robert.) I certainly don't feel that I've been given the impression that Edith blames her family for what Anthony did to her. 

 

As for her relationship with Gregson, I feel like she didn't really think things through when she decided to go forward with consummating their relationship. She's shown herself to be a fairly conventional woman who wants to get married and obviously Gregson wasn't available. Edith valued Matthew's opinion and even Matthew didn't think it would be a good idea for Edith to get involved with a man if there wasn't any hope of marriage around the corner. It also doesn't seem like Edith took any precautions as Mary did and again, that seems to have been a choice that Edith made for herself. It isn't her family's fault that she's in this position where she ended up having a child out of wedlock. Edith has been in control of her life. Edith made the decision to have a relationship with Gregson; she made the decision to have the child in secret; she made the decision to give the child up to one family; she made the decision to take the child back and have it fostered with another family; she made the decision to say that she was okay with keeping her identity a secret from Mrs Drewe; she ended up not deciding upon a fixed schedule for visiting Marigold; she noticed that Mrs Drewe felt that she was pushing in too much and didn't do a single thing to alter her behavior or try to make Mrs Drewe more comfortable or understanding; she has made the decision to continue to keep Mrs Drewe in the dark about the fact that she's Marigold's mother.

 

Things like this make me feel like Edith is in control of her own life she just hasn't necessarily always made the best choices.

[ZulaMay]

On the topic of Edith wanting to "have her cake and eat it too" with regard to Marigold, seeing her but keeping her birth origins a secret:

 

Yes, I agree she needs to confess.  I think she might be on the verge of doing it, given some of the things she has said lately.  But she is not the only one trying to have her cake and eat it too.  So is Mary.  She wanted to sleep with Tony without getting pregnant.  I give her huge props for taking precautions, don't get me wrong.  But she basically forced Anna to not only buy her the birth control but also to hide it in her tiny house.  She knew Anna didn't want to do it, and Anna even told her it went against her conscience.  But she didn't give her a choice.

 

This not only puts Anna in a terrible position vis-a-vis her inner peace, it also puts her marriage at risk.  How long before Bates find that thing in their little house?  It could foreseeably lead to a misunderstanding and then estrangement.  Given the choice, I will take someone who gets careless in a moment of passion over someone who abuses her power over an employee in such a selfish way.  And Edith has something more important at stake:  her child.  For Mary it's sex, which is important but not nearly as important as ones only child.

 

They both fear for their reputations and are both putting other people in a tough situation.  But Edith is not the only one to blame for the mess with the Drewes:  Margie is being unreasonable and he's not handling it that well himself.  In Mary's case, she is the one and the only one putting Anna in that situation.  She knows she did it and she doesn't seem to feel badly about it at all.

 

I know Edith instigated things in the first season, avaleigh, but she stopped doing it a long time ago.  Now Mary says nasty things for no reason.  At least Edith grew out of the pettiness.  Mary hasn't.

 

And when Matthew went missing, Edith went to tell Mary to let her down gently.  That was way back in S2:  she was being sensitive to Mary's feelings.  Mary on the other hand is not at all sensitive to Gregson's disappearance.  She even made a mocking joke about it, which is unconscionable.

 

No one is saying Anthony Strallan wasn't a cad.  But the fact is Robert DID discourage him, told him to stay away from her at first, etc.  Anthony did want to marry her, or else he wouldn't have said "you have given me back my life."  You can't put all the blame on Edith just for saying she wanted to be her future husband's helpmate through life.  There is nothing wrong with that at all.  Maybe it's not what he wanted, but that doesn't mean she was at fault for saying it or wanting it.

 

Sybil and Edith?  Again, a couple of little things in S1 and that's it.  It was Mary who treated Tom so scornfully, even in front of the entire family,saying she hoped Sybil would "wake up" and not marry him.  Not Edith.  After S1 Edith didn't do that stuff anymore.  But again, Mary keeps being a bitch and a pill to Edith.

 

And Sybil actually wasn't perfect with Edith either.  When she was packing to go to nursing school, Edith suggested she take a nice dress.  Sybil rolled her eyes at her and said she was going to LEARN and not go out to dinner.  Five seconds later Mary picked up the SAME dress and told her to take it just in case.  Sybil  gave her a sweet smile and put it in her suitcase.  WTF was that?  The two sisters both make the same helpful suggestion, Edith gets the eye-roll and Mary gets total validation.  Sybil was nice to Edith but she was more supportive of and closer to Mary, and certainly in that instance, treated her with a lot more respect.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about whether Robert and Cora are more supportive, attentive, and validating with Mary than they are with Edith.  Honestly, even people who don't like Edith acknowledge that they are.  There is so much evidence for it, and IMO most arguments against it are speculation and personal interpretation.  I could list all the direct comparisons and cold hard facts....but it would take up way too much time and space here.

 

There is so much that is open to personal interpretation. For example, you said that you believed ultimately Mary would be supportive and understanding with Edith about Marigold.  I think she will be too.....eventually.  But the fact is she has not been supportive and understanding with her in general, last season or this season.  Not about Michael, not about the fire (for which Edith openly and completely shouldered the blame), not in general.

 

You see the positive, that Mary will eventually be supportive.  I agree but I also see the negative that she probably won't be supportive at first, might even be nasty, has not been supportive about the Michael situation or anything else, and has been nasty to her without provocation for a long time now.

Edited October 23, 2014 by ZulaMay

[shipperx]

I think there are reasons we like who we like and once we've taken that step we tend towards confirmation bias. Which is fine. It's the way we watch soaps. We all have favorites and tend to see things more their way.

That said the one issue I tend to have with framing is when it's implied that Edith created the Pamuk scandal. Mary created it. It actually happened. She did the deed. Yes, Edith was spiteful in telling, but she was not the only one who let that particular cat out of the bag. Downstairs parties also spread that scandal. It was a scandal of Mary's making because she actually did do everything that was told about her. I felt bad for her. It was a very sexist time that unfairly holds women responsible when it takes two to tango. Slut shaming is ugly business (and sexist). But the scandal was Mary's actual actions. The others might've been maliciously spreading the truth, but it was the truth. No one involved in that incident was innocent.

Edited October 23, 2014 by shipperx

[Featherhat]

I blame Pamuk for the Pamuk scandal. He wasn't invited into her room and wasn't leaving and there would have been a scandal if she'd screamed as well. I think it was just about consensual but its not something I particularly blame on Mary, even though they were her consequences to deal with.

 

I don't blame Edith for wanting to get back at "perfect" Mary and knock her off her high horse from Edith's POV, but I do blame her for being silly enough not to realise that if Mary because an international diplomatic sex scandal then she and Sybil are both sunk as well.

 

I always find it interesting that Cora spent a lot of season 1 on Mary's marriage prospects and none at all on Edith's. Mary's clearly the big hope, catch wise, everyone considered her an A1 prospect at first and if she'd had the house and/or fortune guaranteed she could have bagged a Duke, possibly even one that wasn't gay, although likely one in need of her money. Even after the war and widowed she has 3 titled men panting after her. Sybil is clearly both a sweet and lively character AND a very pretty girl, she'd logically have little trouble. But why wasn't Cora (and Violet) planning and scheming to match up her "no advantages" daughter with 2nd sons or "less advantageous men"? If she had a good dowry, a title, connections and is certainly not ugly, there's no reason that she couldn't have some offers pre war with a little effort on everyone's part. Maybe spend time with her and try to create some advantages.

 

I know "nothing ever goes right for Edith", she the forgotten one and Cora and Robert acknowledge to themselves that they don't really talk about her but logically if you know she's going to be harder to shift and you are already assigning her a half life as a spinster when she is still a teenager, then you move heaven and earth to make sure that doesn't happen and let your other prettier, wittier daughters get on with brilliant matches, even with all the encouragement for Mary to bag Matthew already so they can keep the Abbey.

 

Instead Cora immediately shifts from trying to bag Mary a 1st class man to getting her married off ASAP to a 3rd class prospect without ever uttering a sentence about making sure Edith has met the local squire from the next village over's 3rd son. Of course preventing or limiting scandal becomes the issue after Pamuk and then the idea they can keep Downton after all as Mary and Matthew grow closer, but if they'd ever given one iota of thought to Edith's prospects beyond "doesn't have any" and "actively bitching about her marrying a well of local baronet a lot of issues including the Pamuk scandal might have been avoided.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Featherhat

[ZoloftBlob]

Well, lets just be honest - it never made any sense that Robert and Violet had such issues with Sir Anthony marrying Edith. Strallan was intentionally invited to dinner to make nice with *Mary*. When Strallen took an interest in Edith, before the war, no one said a word about his age and there was no protest about it. It was only six years later that Strallan was suddenly too old.... and lets be blunt, that's six years for Edith too, the bloom is off the rose, she needs to be married and someone *alive* and *not too badly marred* and of proper breeding was looking at her.

 

Strallan owns walking away at the altar, but part of his walking away was because Robert point blank told him to break it off, and even after he was convinced to allow the wedding clearly wasn't happy.

[DeepRunner]

Well, lets just be honest - it never made any sense that Robert and Violet had such issues with Sir Anthony marrying Edith. Strallan was intentionally invited to dinner to make nice with *Mary*. When Strallen took an interest in Edith, before the war, no one said a word about his age and there was no protest about it. It was only six years later that Strallan was suddenly too old.... and lets be blunt, that's six years for Edith too, the bloom is off the rose, she needs to be married and someone *alive* and *not too badly marred* and of proper breeding was looking at her.

 

Strallan owns walking away at the altar, but part of his walking away was because Robert point blank told him to break it off, and even after he was convinced to allow the wedding clearly wasn't happy.

 

The difference...and I'm not saying it is a MAJOR difference...is that Strallan was a "cripple" in S3, which he openly acknowledged with that specific word. Violet was against it, and Robert was no fan in S1 of Strallan being pitched as a suitor for Mary...Robert said he was at least his (Robert's) age and was "dull as paint." Cora was for it because, at that point, Mary was "damaged goods" over Pamuk. She wanted a married Mary as soon as possible.

[ZoloftBlob]

I get that he was crippled but the truth of the matter is that it really wouldn't have made much of a difference. The reality is that there just weren't many men to pick from... and Robert for all of his interest in this particular pairing not taking place has never proposed Edith marry someone else or encouraged her to look elsewhere.

[Featherhat]

Yeah but Mary was Cora's best prospect before the scandal and even after. If she was later desperate to marry Mary off to anyone vaguely suitable who would still have her, then she should have at least have acknowledged the benefits in having her "presumed spinster" daughter about to marry such a catch. Because god knows no Duke, nor Evelyn Napier or even solicitor Matthew Crawley was ever going to offer for her. 3rd class for Mary should have been at least "pleasantly happy" for Edith the Teenaged Spinster.

 

Strallen's arm was in a sling its true but that was actually minor compared to so many injuries the survivors faced. Edith would never have been his primary caretaker unless she wanted to be as he was apparently well off and had no iffy finances at the time of the wedding. Unlike Robert, which is another reason they would have been receptive to the match, even if he wasn't 100%.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Featherhat

[Avaleigh]

But she is not the only one trying to have her cake and eat it too.  So is Mary.

It seems like there is a tendency to suggest that Mary's behavior should make Edith's behavior okay or somehow less objectionable. I agree that both sisters care about their place in society but don't really feel that the way they handled their respective situations is all that comparable. Edith seems like she hasn't thought things through well at all from her relationship to Gregson to her decision to keep her family in the dark (but at the same time makes it seem like she wants their support for something that they are completely unaware of--too frustrating), her decision to move the child from one family and then another, her decision to not fully inform the Drewes of precisely what it is she wants because she wants to be a hands on godmother/mother, etc. Mary was very direct with Gillingham when she was basically telling him that this would be a test run. Mary made sure to take precautions and she came to a decision fairly quickly once she realized that Gillingham wasn't the one. Edith though still doesn't seem like she completely knows what she wants. 

 

Given the choice, I will take someone who gets careless in a moment of passion over someone who abuses her power over an employee in such a selfish way.  And Edith has something more important at stake:  her child.  For Mary it's sex, which is important but not nearly as important as ones only child.

I don't see how Mary's objectionable behavior makes Edith's objectionable behavior okay or more sympathetic. To me one has nothing to do with the other. As it is I don't think that Mary's week with Gillingham was only about sex. I thought it was about the two of them getting to know each other and Mary wanting to see if he'd be the sort of man she'd like to be a father to her children, whether or not he'd be an amusing companion, whether or not he'd get on her nerves, etc. She was trying to see if a lifetime commitment to this guy would work and since he would be the stepfather of her child in that scenario I think Mary was dealing with something incredibly important as well. 

 

In Mary's case, she is the one and the only one putting Anna in that situation.  She knows she did it and she doesn't seem to feel badly about it at all.

 

 

The reason Mary doesn't feel bad about putting Anna in that position was that it was written so that Anna ultimately ended up being happy that she went. She flat out tells Mary that she'd like to go in and buy more just on principle so it's easy to see why Mary wouldn't give it a second thought after a comment like that. I thought it was poorly written, I didn't like it, but it is what it is.

 

Mrs Drewe on the other hand basically feels like Edith is invading her home and borderline stalking her ward because Edith does things like come over even when Mrs Drewe makes it clear that she feels like her routines are being disrupted. Edith knows perfectly well that Mrs Drewe has no idea what's really going on and that Mrs Drewe just wants some space but Edith won't do anything to try to change the situation. She hasn't at all tried to explain to the woman where she's coming from and at the end of the day that's on Edith.

 

I know Edith instigated things in the first season, avaleigh, but she stopped doing it a long time ago.  Now Mary says nasty things for no reason.  At least Edith grew out of the pettiness.  Mary hasn't.

 

 

I disagree and have given reasons of the sibling rivalry being kept alive by Edith as well. Examples from season 2, 3, 4, and 5. Edith has grown as a character but she is still inclined to make jabs at Mary when she can. I think she and Mary are very alike in this regard. 

 

You can't put all the blame on Edith just for saying she wanted to be her future husband's helpmate through life.

 

 

I put the break up on Anthony Strallan but I think that a large factor into his decision had to do with Edith's declaration. He talks about her wasting herself and I think he sees her being a kind of glorified caretaker.

 

Sybil and Edith?  Again, a couple of little things in S1 and that's it.

 

 

I disagree I felt like it was in seasons 1 and 2 but that was just my interpretation. It's later in season 2 when Sybil tells Edith that she's a nicer person now because of the war and the implication is that Edith could be a pill to be around. Sybil and Mary always seemed like they got along fine but with Edith and Sybil we could see Edith's jealousy. I didn't feel the jealousy vibe between Mary and Sybil. Even in season 3 Edith wouldn't allow Sybil to try to comfort her after she'd been jilted. Edith was understandably upset and I thought her resentment of her sisters had never been more apparent.

 

The two sisters both make the same helpful suggestion, Edith gets the eye-roll and Mary gets total validation.

 

 

I thought the difference was in the way they made the suggestion. Mary was the one who said towards the end of the scene why not take the dress just in case. Edith before that was making it seem like she was surprised that Sybil wouldn't have more time for formal dinners. I'd have to watch the scene again but that's how I remember it playing out. Sybil didn't strike me as though she was being unjust in that scene.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree about whether Robert and Cora are more supportive, attentive, and validating with Mary than they are with Edith.

 

 

Just to be clear I think that Cora has been supportive, attentive, validating, etc. I see her as being a good mother to all of her daughters. With Robert it's more that I don't think that he's the ogre that he's made out to be when it comes to Edith. 

 

One example from this season is that Robert s criticized for thinking that it's possible that the Drewes might get sick of Edith and of course the Drewes did get sick of Edith. Robert was the only one who commented on how Edith's behavior seemed like it was a bit much and he turns out to be right, her behavior was too much for the Drewes, but what's focused on is that this is supposedly evidence of Robert's contempt for Edith whereas I thought it was about him noticing that her behavior was a little bit off. This sudden obsessive devotion to this girl came out of nowhere and unless somebody is clued into what's going on, it is going to seem a little odd that she's going over there so much especially when she knows that Mrs Drewe isn't comfortable with it.

 

[ZulaMay]

It seems like there is a tendency to suggest that Mary's behavior should make Edith's behavior okay or somehow less objectionable.  (Edith's) her decision to not fully inform the Drewes of precisely what it is she wants because she wants to be a hands on godmother/mother, etc. Mary was very direct with Gillingham when she was basically telling him that this would be a test run. Mary made sure to take precautions and she came to a decision fairly quickly once she realized that Gillingham wasn't the one. Edith though still doesn't seem like she completely knows what she wants. 

 

I never said Mary's behavior makes Edith's mistakes OK.   And it's not true that Edith didn't let the Drewes know what she wanted.  She told them (at his suggestion) that she wanted to be a hands-on godmother.  But Margie Drewe doesn't want her to even do that and is now basically saying she can't see the kid at all.   And Mary doesn't know what she wants either.  That's why she test-drove Tony.  It's OK to be uncertain but the fact is Mary was just as uncertain as Edith and these guys have now been waiting two years because of it.

I don't see how Mary's objectionable behavior makes Edith's objectionable behavior okay or more sympathetic. . She was trying to see if a lifetime commitment to this guy would work and since he would be the stepfather of her child in that scenario I think Mary was dealing with something incredibly important as well. 

 

I never said Mary's week with Tony was objectionable at all.  Never.  And I did say yes, it's important but is it as important as Edith's only child?  I don't think so but agree to disagree.

 

The reason Mary doesn't feel bad about putting Anna in that position was that it was written so that Anna ultimately ended up being happy that she went. She flat out tells Mary that she'd like to go in and buy more just on principle so it's easy to see why Mary wouldn't give it a second thought after a comment like that. I thought it was poorly written, I didn't like it, but it is what it is.

 

​The fact that "that's how it's written" doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter that Anna was ultimately not sorry she went to buy the birth control, because Mary didn't know it would turn out like that.  The fact is Mary effectively MADE her do it when she knew Anna was uncomfortable with it and didn't want to do it.  She was being selfish to make her do it, and even more selfish to ask her to hide it in her house.  

 

Mrs Drewe on the other hand basically feels like Edith is invading her home and borderline stalking her ward because Edith does things like come over even when Mrs Drewe makes it clear that she feels like her routines are being disrupted. She hasn't at all tried to explain to the woman where she's coming from and at the end of the day that's on Edith.

 

They have tried to explain to her what Edith wants.  She wants to be able to visit Marigold.  And Mrs. Drewe was fine with it until she got it in her head that Edith had a crush on her husband, then that Edith wanted to steal the baby.  She was happy to let Edith help out by babysitting, but when Edith took the baby to the yard she wigged out.  Since then she's been close-minded to the whole idea of Edith being a godmother, has slammed the door in her face and is now threatening to make the family MOVE because she is so paranoid about Edith's intentions.

 

I disagree and have given reasons of the sibling rivalry being kept alive by Edith as well. Examples from season 2, 3, 4, and 5. Edith has grown as a character but she is still inclined to make jabs at Mary when she can. I think she and Mary are very alike in this regard. 

 

Edith makes little jabs at Mary but they are mild compared to the nasty things Mary says to Edith, to Mary's contemptuous and cold attitude toward her.  Edith was sensitive when Matthew went missing and Mary was mocking and insensitive when Michael did.  Edith wouldn't call Mary an idiot at the breakfast table if Mary was being so openly repentant and beating up on herself already.  There is no real rivalry.  Mary won the war but she doesn't want to stop waging it.

I put the break up on Anthony Strallan but I think that a large factor into his decision had to do with Edith's declaration. He talks about her wasting herself and I think he sees her being a kind of glorified caretaker.

 

That still doesn't mean she was in the wrong at all or deserved to be jilted at the altar like that.  She was definitely not to blame for her own misfortune. Other people were.

 

 It's later in season 2 when Sybil tells Edith that she's a nicer person now because of the war and the implication is that Edith could be a pill to be around. Sybil and Mary always seemed like they got along fine but with Edith and Sybil we could see Edith's jealousy. I didn't feel the jealousy vibe between Mary and Sybil. Even in season 3 Edith wouldn't allow Sybil to try to comfort her after she'd been jilted. Edith was understandably upset and I thought her resentment of her sisters had never been more apparent.

 

Mary was also a nicer person after the war than Edith was.  S1 Mary was snobby and bratty and could definitely be a total pill to be around.  And yes, Edith was jealous of Sybil but again she didn't demonstrate that after S1.  And she had reason to be jealous:  they were treated better by their parents because they were prettier, got more love and validation.  Why would Sybil and Mary be envious of each other?  They have no reason to.  

 

And as for her not letting them comfort her?  She had just been jilted at the altar, she was overwhelmed and devastated.  She wanted what they had:  marriage, children, love.  She couldn't bear to be reminded of it in that moment because God knows it was painful enough to contemplate a long lonely future without it.  She wasn't angry with them, but seeing them just poured salt on the wound.  A lot of people like to be left alone when they're upset.  It's a natural and common response.  Even if it hurt their feelings a little, Edith's pain was a hundred times worse so I think she can be given a total pass on that.

 

I thought the difference was in the way they made the suggestion. Mary was the one who said towards the end of the scene why not take the dress just in case. Edith before that was making it seem like she was surprised that Sybil wouldn't have more time for formal dinners. I'd have to watch the scene again but that's how I remember it playing out. Sybil didn't strike me as though she was being unjust in that scene.

 

​Well, watch it again.  Edith simply said  take it "in case you're invited to dinner" and Sybil rolled her eyes.  Mary said take it "just in case" and Sybil sweetly deferred to her.  They both said it in a perfectly helpful tone, and they said the SAME thing.  It's a perfect example of how Edith can do the same thing as Mary and be treated differently.

 

One example from this season is that Robert s criticized for thinking that it's possible that the Drewes might get sick of Edith and of course the Drewes did get sick of Edith. Robert was the only one who commented on how Edith's behavior seemed like it was a bit much and he turns out to be right, her behavior was too much for the Drewes, but what's focused on is that this is supposedly evidence of Robert's contempt for Edith whereas I thought it was about him noticing that her behavior was a little bit off. 

 

Yes, he noticed it and was much quicker to comment on it than on the fact that she had gone to Switzerland for nine months, has since been sad and distracted and is now taking an interest in the orphan down the road.  He'll always point out the negative before the positive when it comes to Edith.   "They'll get sick of you."  Pretty much projecting how he feels about his daughter.  He should have said it might make them uncomfortable, or she should be careful not to overdo it so as not to be a bother.  And it doesn't excuse his contemptuous attitude toward her writing, toward the man she chose to marry, toward Gregson whom he kept trying to avoid when she brought him to the party to meet him.  Robert is dismissive of her and that's pretty much undeniable.  The very fact that he assumed the worst right away sums it up.

Edited October 24, 2014 by ZulaMay

[Avaleigh]

They have tried to explain to her what Edith wants.  She wants to be able to visit Marigold.  And Mrs. Drewe was fine with it until she got it in her head that Edith had a crush on her husband, then that Edith wanted to steal the baby.  She was happy to let Edith help out by babysitting, but when Edith took the baby to the yard she wigged out.  Since then she's been close-minded to the whole idea of Edith being a godmother, has slammed the door in her face and is now threatening to make the family MOVE because she is so paranoid about Edith's intentions.

 

 

They haven't explained the situation in a way that would explain things to Mrs Drewe. Edith was aware that she was making Mrs Drewe feel uncomfortable but she did nothing to alter her behavior. When Mrs Drewe made it clear that she didn't want Edith to come over the next day, Edith told her that she was going to come by anyway and that the lady could tell her to go away if she wanted. (?!) As if that makes any sense or is going to make the situation better. There were moments when she just ignored Mrs Drewe and talked over her to Marigold. She's been so obvious about her attachment to Marigold that it makes more sense to me to be fair on Mrs Drewe and tell her the truth. Since she isn't willing to do that yet, I feel like this is an example of Edith making choices that are adding to her unhappiness.

 

There was nothing in the episodes to indicate that Edith suggested any sort of set schedule for coming over to the Drewes so that she could be sure that it wouldn't disrupt Mrs Drewe's routines. Even with Mr Drewe, Edith didn't tell him the truth, he ended up guessing because he has more information than his wife does about the situation. Adding to Mrs Drewe's fear that there could have been something going on between her husband and Edith, I think it's unfair for Edith to assume that Mrs Drewe should continue to be fine with all of this when Edith's behavior just doesn't seem normal unless one knows about the fact that she's actually Marigold's mother.

 

This is a situation that Edith brought on herself at the end of the day and she's ultimately making it uncomfortable for the entire Drewe family.

 

Well, watch it again.  Edith simply said  take it "in case you're invited to dinner" and Sybil rolled her eyes.  Mary said take it "just in case" and Sybil sweetly deferred to her.  They both said it in a perfectly helpful tone, and they said the SAME thing.  It's a perfect example of how Edith can do the same thing as Mary and be treated differently.

 

 

That's actually close to how I remember the scene only to me it seemed like Edith's facial expression plus her tone was suggesting that she was surprised that Sybil wouldn't be going to dinner more hence why Sybil rolled her eyes. Mary's tone was more 'you never know' and to me that felt like the difference. That being said I didn't necessarily think that the eye roll was for Edith exclusively but for her sisters in general because she knows perfectly well what their priorities are. I honestly don't think that Sybil was trying to be dismissive of Edith during that scene.

 

That still doesn't mean she was in the wrong at all or deserved to be jilted at the altar like that.  She was definitely not to blame for her own misfortune. Other people were.

 

 

I didn't say that she deserved to be jilted at the altar and I didn't say that she was wrong for telling Anthony that she wanted to make him her life's project. I'm saying that I think Anthony took that into account when he decided to dump her because he didn't want her to waste her life. I absolutely think that Edith had a role to play in what ended up happening and I feel like it was a lot more about Anthony being worried about her being a glorified nursemaid than it was about Robert's lukewarm attitude. Again, Anthony was facing a lot less opposition than Tom. In fact Anthony wasn't really facing any opposition whereas Tom was faced with it from multiple directions. Violet and Robert aren't to blame for the way Anthony chose to humiliate Edith. That's what I will always disagree with. It's making it seem like he was chased away and IMO that simply wasn't what happened. Edith's family isn't to blame for Anthony publicly humiliating her like that.

 

I never said Mary's behavior makes Edith's mistakes OK.

 

 

Typically what happens is Edith's behavior is analyzed and then there are comments made about how Mary is somehow worse when it comes to x, y, and z and that this somehow makes Edith the better character overall. When we were discussing the way that Edith wants to be able to have her cake and eat it too, the follow up comment was "So does Mary" as though this somehow makes a difference or makes Edith's behavior okay in comparison. You go on to say how you'd take someone who gets careless in a moment of passion over somebody who is selfishly abusing an employee, so I definitely got the impression that you were saying that since Edith isn't as bad as Mary (in your opinion) that this somehow makes Edith's behavior okay or more understandable.

 

I don't personally feel like I need to put Mary up or down in order to analyze Edith's character. Nor do I feel like I need to put down Edith in order to make Mary's character seem better. I think that Edith's behavior with the Drewes has highlighted her selfish side. She hasn't contemplated the difficulties that she's caused in the Drewe's marriage, she totally brushed off the comment indicating that Mrs Drewe had indeed wondered about the relationship between Edith and her husband, she doesn't care about the other kids in the household and completely puts them on ignore so it looks like the kids are wondering what exactly the deal is and why is this woman suddenly over our house all of the time, Edith insists on coming over the next day even when she knows that Mrs Drewe doesn't want her to, she refuses to give Mrs Drewe any sort of understanding on where she might be coming from and doesn't even consider how the class part of it could be playing into Mrs Drewe's fears. I feel like there are all sorts of ways where Edith could have been more open and considerate with the Drewes and maybe the situation wouldn't have turned out the way it has.

 

It's a situation like this one that makes me think that Edith's choices are a large part of why her life is the way that it is. There's only so much that can be blamed on having a dismissive father. Edith has had plenty of advantages, love, and support in her life. She has money, she has love and support from her family when she needs it (it's not their fault that she isn't open with them about what's going on in her life; when she is open, we see that people have been willing to be helpful and supportive), she's protected by her class and race, she's educated, she has a job, she was able to be whisked off to have her baby in secret (let us remember for a moment how it was for Ethel), she gets to put her feet up at a great estate, she has the option of traveling if she wants, and she's still has the freedom in general to make her own choices--all in all Edith has it a lot better than many other characters on this show but somehow Edith is seen as a perpetual victim, someone who is constantly abused and poorly treated by her family and I just haven't seen that. Edith must know that she's hugely fortunate in many ways, not just financial, but most of the time it seems as though she's feeling sorry for herself.

 

Maybe Edith wants life to be 100% fair but life just isn't like that. She can ask Anna and Daisy and they'll tell her all about fairness in life. While she's at it she can talk to Isobel, Tom, Cora, Mrs Patmore, Molesley, Thomas, and write to O'Brien to continue the discussion. Mary found out all about how fair life can be when she lost Matthew but because she's had more happiness in general than Edith has it's like something awful and tragic like this doesn't count. To some people it's as though Mary has never had anything bad happen to her even though we actually have a list of things to look at just as we do with other characters. Mary has problems just like any other character on the show.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Avaleigh

[shipperx]

Isn't Edith paying the Drewes money for Marigolds benefit? How has Mr Drewe rationalized that to himself ...or his wife when they took Marigold on?

As to advantages I think it can be universally stipulated that upstairs has financial, educational, and societal advantages over the less fortunate downstairs. All debate is within relative context which is why Edith is debated within the relative context of Mary, Sybil, or Rose rather than Anna or Daisy. We need not feel compelled to compare apples to oranges. Daisy in particular would have immensely fewer options at her disposal.

Edited October 24, 2014 by shipperx

[Avaleigh]

Even if we take the downstairs characters out of the equation I think that we have seen that Edith has had the same advantages as her sisters and other girls of her class. There are the constant claims that Edith's parents did nothing to help her find a husband when we've seen that she was afforded the same opportunities as her sisters when it came to being put into situations that were specifically about meeting eligible young men. It isn't the fault of Cora and Robert that Edith wasn't able to find a husband during this time. They decided to let their daughters choose for themselves for the most part. Once Mary became "damaged goods" the situation changed but prior to that Edith and Mary were in the same boat in that they hadn't married after their first couple of seasons on the debutante scene. Honestly, even after Mary's situation changed, her parents didn't do that much to help her find a husband. Cora invited Anthony to one dinner and Violet in particular tried to help get Mary back together with Matthew. Apart from that I feel like the efforts the family supposedly went to in order to help find a husband for Mary are greatly exaggerated and don't really show an unfairness between the way Mary and Edith have been treated.

 

Contrast the attitude the Granthams had towards making sure their daughters marry with the attitude of someone like Madeline's father and I can see Madeline wishing that her father were more like Robert. 

 

When I think of the relationship that Rose has with her mother I can't help but feel that this supports my feeling that Edith has had a warm and loving mother who is encouraging and supportive. Rose and her mother Susan? Yikes, what a difference. Rose seems like she's constantly under criticism from her mother and that she isn't used to being complimented by her but Rose doesn't seem to suffer from the same sort of issues of jealousy or anything like that. Rose and her father seem like they have a good relationship but at the same time he doesn't really want to be bothered with having to look after her during what he sees as her husband seeking period so he's twice now looked to the Crawleys so that he doesn't have to be bothered with the "problem" of Rose. I can't help but feel if Robert had been this way with Edith, looking for a family to take his daughter in so that he can freely spend time at his club and all that that Robert would be hugely criticized as not caring enough about Edith.

 

As for Mary and Cora's relationship in comparison with Cora and Edith's relationship, I haven't seen any evidence that Mary and Cora are closer or that Cora has been more loving with Mary than with Edith. I disagree that Cora's comment about Mary having more advantages than Edith is an indication that Mary (and Sybil) received the bulk of the attention and love with Edith not receiving any or very little.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Avaleigh

[DianeDobbler]

I don't think we've seen Edith has the same advantages. When she overheard her mother telling Mary that she didn't have as many advantages, she overheard her mother telling Mary that Edith wasn't as pretty as Mary. That is something a mother should never ever say to the prettier child, true or not. Not ever. Furthermore, as written, the Drews aren't sick of Edith personally, as Edith, but because Fellowes is writing Mrs. Drew as a moron, and writing the family circumstances as insane (sure, we'll just pick up and find another tenant farm to farm! Nothing easier! My missus would rather we hit the road and starve than let Edith round Marigold another second!). I am quite confident that if Mary had the small daughter being raised by the Drews, Robert wouldn't think they'd get sick of Mary. He'd worry Mary wasn't circulating enough around her own kind, and perhaps worry the Drews would begin to expect too much of her. What he said wasn't about hanging around too much. That was "who can stand that much of Edith, she's inflicting them with her patheticness." What Robert said came off completely as "Who can stand that much of Edith" and we all know he'd never say that of Mary.

 

I get that he was crippled but the truth of the matter is that it really wouldn't have made much of a difference. The reality is that there just weren't many men to pick from... and Robert for all of his interest in this particular pairing not taking place has never proposed Edith marry someone else or encouraged her to look elsewhere"

 

I have never understood this vile Catch-22 her parents cram Edith into. No advantages, gonna be hanging around at home nursing her elderly parents - but when someone DOES show an interest they sabotage it or insist he's all wrong. She might not have a prospect years on end, but when one shows up, he's the wrong guy. For all the world they come off as so disgusted by their own daughter they're automatically repulsed by any man who'd show an interest.

 

I am completely confident that if any man Edith loved came back to Downton with Lavinia in tow, the family would commence telling each other how they hoped Edith wouldn't make a fool of herself carrying a torch now that her previous would-be intended had such a young, lovely, kind, sweet, wealthy fiancee'.

Edited October 25, 2014 by DianeDobbler

[DeepRunner]

Even if we take the downstairs characters out of the equation I think that we have seen that Edith has had the same advantages as her sisters and other girls of her class. There are the constant claims that Edith's parents did nothing to help her find a husband when we've seen that she was afforded the same opportunities as her sisters when it came to being put into situations that were specifically about meeting eligible young men. It isn't the fault of Cora and Robert that Edith wasn't able to find a husband during this time. They decided to let their daughters choose for themselves for the most part. Once Mary became "damaged goods" the situation changed but prior to that Edith and Mary were in the same boat in that they hadn't married after their first couple of seasons on the debutante scene. Honestly, even after Mary's situation changed, her parents didn't do that much to help her find a husband. Cora invited Anthony to one dinner and Violet in particular tried to help get Mary back together with Matthew. Apart from that I feel like the efforts the family supposedly went to in order to help find a husband for Mary are greatly exaggerated and don't really show an unfairness between the way Mary and Edith have been treated.

 

Contrast the attitude the Granthams had towards making sure their daughters marry with the attitude of someone like Madeline's father and I can see Madeline wishing that her father were more like Robert. 

 

When I think of the relationship that Rose has with her mother I can't help but feel that this supports my feeling that Edith has had a warm and loving mother who is encouraging and supportive. Rose and her mother Susan? Yikes, what a difference. Rose seems like she's constantly under criticism from her mother and that she isn't used to being complimented by her but Rose doesn't seem to suffer from the same sort of issues of jealousy or anything like that. Rose and her father seem like they have a good relationship but at the same time he doesn't really want to be bothered with having to look after her during what he sees as her husband seeking period so he's twice now looked to the Crawleys so that he doesn't have to be bothered with the "problem" of Rose. I can't help but feel if Robert had been this way with Edith, looking for a family to take his daughter in so that he can freely spend time at his club and all that that Robert would be hugely criticized as not caring enough about Edith.

 

As for Mary and Cora's relationship in comparison with Cora and Edith's relationship, I haven't seen any evidence that Mary and Cora are closer or that Cora has been more loving with Mary than with Edith. I disagree that Cora's comment about Mary having more advantages than Edith is an indication that Mary (and Sybil) received the bulk of the attention and love with Edith not receiving any or very little.

A couple of thoughts:

 

* Rose and Susan McClare--Fellowes painted Susan as a shrew (which he seems to do with villains he doesn't like--see "Bunting, Sarah") toward Rose, who seemed to enjoy doing drunken clubbing with married men and getting into almost-marriage relationships for the purposes of sticking it to "Mummy." But the third member of the MacClare Clan ("Good Old Shrimpy") is left out of the equation. Shrimpy was a jerk to Susan, and it can't have helped to see the man she's married to in a loveless marriage express affection (as fathers often do for their little girls). Susan was harsh, but she was a bitter woman in a bitter marriage with a man who didn't love her and a daughter who despised her. 

 

* Cora and Edith--Cora the Clueless Yankee (another of Fellowes's etching tools that I find incredibly condescending--Yankees are only good for the money necessary to keep the nobility in power, after all) saying Edith had "fewer advantages" than Mary was like saying, "Edith can't help it, butsaeriously, girl, she's not as beautiful or smart or WANTED as you are." Or after Sybil's first Season, after effusing praise on Sybil, when Edith said, "You never say that to me," all Cora responded with was, "You were very helpful, dear." Fellowes thus used Cora as a brickbat to remind Edith of her place in the family. And then, after having all the village fawn over Mary and Matthew's wedding, and Strallan jilting Edith at the altar, all she could come up with was that she was being "tested," and that things like this would make her stronger. Comforting and concerned, loving words, I'm sure, after a soul-destroying, heart-crushing experience. 

 

To the Crawley parents, who, imo, often seem to be an extension of Fellowes's view of Edith, Mary is a diamond, while Edith is slag.

[ZulaMay]

And then Mary said Edith had "no advantages at all."  Meaning I suppose that she wasn't as pretty as Mary?  But mostly IMO that men preferred her and so did her parents.  That's what happens when you tell one kid she hung the moon and the other she doesn't matter and is a second-class citizen.  The favored chid actually believes she is better.

 

Aside from being better-looking and more confident and poised, I don't think Mary has more natural advantages.  And it's the positive reinforcement from her parents that has made her so very confident.  She might be temperamentally like that, but nurture has played as big a role as nature.  Same with Edith.  Part of her social awkwardness is because of the constant negative reinforcement she has had throughout her entire life.

 

Edith is more cerebral, intellectually curious, interested in being helpful and learning useful skills, than Mary is.  She is more accommodating and less selfish. She actually mourned her cousin whereas Mary didn't and even mocked Edith about doing so.  So it isn't true that she has "no advantages".  That's just how they see it because they are hung up on the superficial, to a large degree.

 

I don't blame Edith for being pushed to the edge when she heard Mary say that.  And her mother didn't even disagree with her!!!  The fact that Mary didn't say it straight to Edith doesn't make it meaningless because first, she WOULD have said it to her face, and second, the way Mary talks about Edith behind her back reflects her contempt for her and her general sucky attitude.  Hearing Mary say that just drove that home really hard.

 

Avaleigh, I just want to conclude by saying that I realize Edith is not perfect and has made mistakes.  But she is unlucky and has been unfairly dismissed and disdained by her family, whereas Mary has gotten the lion's share of attention even though she hasn't earned it.  Cora and Robert's parenting?  No one's perfect.  They are not perfect with Mary, either but they are a damned sight better than with Edith.

 

I have two kids and was a daughter myself, with two sisters.  I am by no means a perfect parent and neither were mine.  But I have higher standards for what constitutes good parenting.  If my child seemed sad and distracted for two years, I would be paying attention and doing my best to help her back on her feet.  Especially if that's what I did for my other child.  There are times when one kid is driving you nuts and the other is being a peach, but you don't favor one of the other in such a blatant and remorseless way.  You don't let one kid talk smack about the other constantly without making any effort to stop it.  

 

Those are my standards, and IMO parents should at least try to meet them to the extent they can.  And Cora and Robert can and should try a lot harder than they do, because God knows they have little else to do with their time.  Their daughter is having a crisis right under their noses, and they don't even seem to notice or care.  As a parent I find it shocking.

Edited October 25, 2014 by ZulaMay

[ZulaMay]

And tonight was a pretty crystal-clear example of Mary's attitude. Cold, insensitive, dismissive, self-centered, mean and petty.

She's literally Regina George from "Mean Girls."

[saki]

And tonight was a pretty crystal-clear example of Mary's attitude. Cold, insensitive, dismissive, self-centered, mean and petty.

She's literally Regina George from "Mean Girls."

Except that we're somehow supposed to like her. I think?

[ZulaMay]

I think we are supposed to see her flaws but like her anyway.  And of course she'll eventually soften and apologize or be a bit nicer so then she will be "redeemed."

 

The problem is she is just TOO flawed now and beyond redemption.  He has just crossed a line in writing her.  If he thinks that was just a typical sibling rivalry spat he must have come from a really fucked up family.  Or if he thinks that she just has a nasty side but is really nice "deep down."  No, actually, I think deep down she's just as bad.  Rotten at the core.

[DeepRunner]

One of my biggest issues with Mary and Edith, which I have articulated before, is MARY IS NEVER, EVER, EVER made to atone for anything and most often has good fortune come to her, while Fellowes loads-up the  punishment on Edith. Love an older man? Have him jilt her at the altar, while the preferred daughter gets a wedding where the whole town shows up waving flags (don't get me wrong, that was good pageantry for Mary's wedding, and costume pageantry is something Lord Fellowes excels at.) Have each sister engage in premarital sex? Make sure it's Edith who ends up pregnant with a lover presumably killed by the brown-shirts, while Mary only has to lug Pamuk's body across the Abbey and have Violet discredit the story to Mrs. Shrimpy. (Really, if Fellowes had wanted to, or had any sense of justice or creativity, he would have let O'Brien do the deed in divulging...she was the one who wanted discord among the daughters just to wreck Mary, she certainly seemed to have a lady's maid friend who was ready to do Bates in, and lest, we forget, she was the author of "Her Ladyship's soap." But asking Fellowes to utterly crater one of his two favorite villains, the other being Thomas the Vampire, is too much, I guess.) Want her to shakedown her fiance to save the Abbey with his inherited money? OK. Want to have parents pick and choose which daughter(s) are their favorite, and then be condescending to the other? Check.

 

Mary's story and her character were both interesting in S1. After S1, meh...She still has some good qualities, but seriously...The rose-colored glasses that Fellowes uses...oy, vey.

[ZulaMay]

I don't find her interesting any more because for one, her struggle is no longer relevant. She has the estate so the original point is moot. She doesn't have to remarry. She hasn't developed as a person, and not only has regressed but has become her S1 self on steroids.

Her biggest problems are too many men and Mabel Lane-Fox has a more chic haircut. Her Challenge of the Week is winning a stupid horse race to show up a woman who isn't even her rival. She barely interacts with her kid so that's no burden or challenge. Everyone is on her side and she never has to fight for love or respect or validation or anything at all. So she focuses on petty bullshit and loses all perspective and empathy for the problems of normal people.

Seriously, what is sympathetic about her? What is interesting about her aside from her snark? And even that just becomes unpleasant when she crosses the line like she did last night.

I think they just need to go ahead and make her the anti-heroine. Embrace it because this effort to Mary Sue her is so transparent and ham-fisted and increasingly laughable. Is there any coming back for what she did last night to her sister? Apologizing is not enough. Especially since she doesn't know how to do so with any deep sincerity....at least not that will last past the period of crisis. Once everyone is off her case she'll just revert to her old ways again like she always does. One step forward, three steps back.

[photo fox]

Guys, please remember per the mod note that plot points from the new episodes need to be spoiler tagged until they air in the US. The only exceptions are the actual episode topics and the UK-specific speculation topics.

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/15036-living-with-spoilers-in-a-uk-first-downton-world/#entry420160

I'm going to go back and edit the last few posts to add spoiler tags.

Also, if you find yourself making the same arguments over and over, it might be time to step away from the Mary/Edith debate for a bit. ;-)

[Avaleigh]

I don't think we've seen Edith has the same advantages. When she overheard her mother telling Mary that she didn't have as many advantages, she overheard her mother telling Mary that Edith wasn't as pretty as Mary. That is something a mother should never ever say to the prettier child, true or not. Not ever.

 

 

I think it's worth pointing out here that when Cora and Mary were having this conversation, Cora was trying to get Mary to give Edith a break. It wasn't like this was an example of Cora trying to be mean to Edith, she was trying to get Mary to be nice to Edith by pointing out that Edith doesn't have as many advantages as Mary so maybe Mary should consider that and have a little sympathy. I don't see anything wrong with a parent reminding another child that they are more fortunate in certain areas and should be grateful that they've been so blessed. She was just trying to get Mary to take a moment a consider what it would be like to be in Edith's shoes. That's how it came across to me.

 

She is more accommodating and less selfish. She actually mourned her cousin whereas Mary didn't and even mocked Edith about doing so.

 

 

I think we've seen Edtih's selfish side over the course of the series as well. Also, wrt the mocking of mourning Patrick--I felt like I saw a similar side of Edith when she caught Mary praying for Matthew. Edith had a smirk on her face and went out of her way to annoy Mary in the scene because they both knew that the other likely knew exactly who and what Mary was praying for. That's just the sort of relationship they have.

 

Have each sister engage in premarital sex? Make sure it's Edith who ends up pregnant with a lover presumably killed by the brown-shirts, while Mary only has to lug Pamuk's body across the Abbey and have Violet discredit the story to Mrs. Shrimpy.

 

 

Mary had to deal with a lot more than that reagrding the Pamuk affair. It was a situation that haunted her for years and almost forced her into marriage with a man she didn't love. She thought she'd have to leave the country for years before the story was finally squashed for good. Violet covered for Mary then

just as she's covering for Edith now.

 

In season 1 Edith and Mary both had difficulties and had to deal with bad luck and both had to deal with being hurt by the other. In season 2 they both got caught kissing men who were involved with other women. Mary had to deal with a lot of pain wrt Matthew in season 2 and spent a large part of the season unhappy whereas Edith seemed like she was in a better place in general and emotionally. In season 3 Mary finally gets what she wants but there are some bumps in the road. She fears for a while that she might not be able to conceive (a big deal if a person wants to have a family as we know she and Matthew did), she and Matthew have the disagreement about the Swire money that everyone knows Lavinia would have wanted him to have, she has the pain of Sybil's death just as everyone else in the family has, and the real kicker, she loses Matthew after they just had their first and only child, plus they only had a little over a year of married life together. I'd say that Mary definitely qualifies as having her share of bad luck. These losses seem like they're more readily dismissed because they're happening to Mary who is still very fortunate in other areas of her life. (If Strallan had died after a year of marriage I feel like there would definitely have been claims about JF not wanting to allow Edith to be happy and this being just another example of her streak of unluckiness.)

 

In season 3 Edith suffers greatly from being jilted but the silver lining is that she finds a job that she likes, she finally has something to do, and she has a new love interest. He turns out to be married but he brings a spark back to Edith's life so she seems like she's reasonably happy. In the fourth season her happiness finds full expression and she's in a really good place. Edith is unlucky. This is fair enough but she isn't unlucky all the time and she is incredibly fortunate in many ways not just financial.

 

Furthermore, Edith being unlucky doesn't automatically mean that Mary is the character with all of the luck. Mary has had to suffer and deal with hardship the same as anybody else on the show. Edith and Mary have faced different challenges in life but I think it's unfair to dismiss everything that Mary has gone through over the course of the show simply because she hasn't had to deal with the same problems as Edith. 

Edited October 30, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Featherhat]

 

Except that we're somehow supposed to like her. I think?

 

Well loads of people loved Rachel McAdams after Mean Girls, she and LL were the stars out of that. Whether or not they *liked* Regina is a question mark but she turned heads.... Mary's not there yet and probably won't get there but character who do terrible things for blackish-grey reasons are generally well received  by a lot of people See: Snape.

 

I haven't liked either sisters storyline so far this season. Edith's is more emotional and in some ways understandable but I loath the way she's treating everyone else involved with Marigold (usually at her request/instigation) and I don't think she is doing her daughter any short or longterm favours acting like this. Mary's was also potentially interesting, realising that among other things she wanted to "test drive" a man before a 2nd marriage and not having it work out could have been very interesting and a contrast to her shame of Pamuk before, but it turned out tedious and Blake is far from appearing as the frontrunner he was aiming for at the back end of S4. Mabel has shown more spark than Mary has all season.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Featherhat