Season 16: Ciao! Fontana

[GHScorpiosRule]

So, “Red Ball.” Just how many episodes did we get where Jack feels he has to negotiate with murderers???

Poor Adam Arkin. I liked his Charlie Graham-he wasn’t anything like that smug game-seeking whore in “Bodies.”

And irony of ironies. Foghorn Leghorn telling Jack he was a great prosecutor, but would never be District Attorney. Only for Jack to be DA two seasons later!🤣

Oh yuck, “Flaw” with Olivia Benson. But Lynda Carter makes up for it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Since I had checked out of this show once Lennie/Orbach was gone, watching this season reminded me, I did watch some, but not all.

Borgia is such a non-entity. I'd read, I think it was in the General Discussion, how she addressed Foghorn Leghorn and Jack by their surnames, but I see she calls them "Jack" and "Arthur" in the episodes I've seen so far. She just doesn't exude any confidence, but does reveal how inexperienced she is most of the time.

"Ghosts" was...interesting. But I really, really, really, don't like Fontana. Or that the show at this point, tries to get away with his tactics. And boo-hoo, he was wrong about Dolan, but just doubled down that it had to be the father (Dolan) who had raped and killed his daughter.

And I totally believe the brother, Nick, who told Jack, that Fontana promised him a liquor license.

And the guy who played Johnny Zano, the killer, was also the bigoted asshole from season 11's "Phobia" the birth father of the baby the gay couple had adopted.

I'm so glad Dolan closed the door in Fontana's face at the end.

I couldn't stand "Age of Innocence" (what a STOOPID title), either. So OBVIOUS it was ripped from the real Terry Schiavo case, which I lived through. I really wanted a conviction for that murderous Reverend too.

I did appreciate, however, that we were shown that Green wasn't a 100% in the premiere. I think only 3 or 4 months had passed since he was shot?

Shallow, but I miss Jack's spiky hair do! I don't like the flattened, side bangy look.

[Spartan Girl]

16 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So, “Red Ball.” Just how many episodes did we get where Jack feels he has to negotiate with murderers???

Too many. Unethical or not, I was glad the judge override the deal once the little girl was safe.

[Halting Hex]

16.17, "America Inc."

Danielle Melnick needs to be disbarred.  Not for using the trial as a campaign against the Iraq War or private military contractors (that's a decent nullification strategy, and pretty much all she had, assuming she didn't know about the surprise Boatman was hiding), but because she left Robbie Howell (Adam Scott) to twist in the wind.  Once the Feds showed they wanted Boatman free at any cost and she had Jack's nuts in a vise, there's no excuse for not folding Robbie into the deal.  (If Jack wants a conviction on record, fine.  Robbie can plea to conspiracy or accessory or whatever and take a suspended sentence or probation.  Throw electronic monitoring in there, if you feel the need.  [No home confinement, though, since his parents depend on his income from his job.])

But she got the perfect deal for one client while not leveraging the situation to help the other one, too.  That's exactly why you don't have joint representation.  (Not that having a lawyer of his own would have helped Robbie in this situation, but that lawyer wouldn't have been under the ethical duty to use Boatman's info to save Robbie's ass, too.)

The good news is that Robbie would have a damn good "ineffective counsel" appeal.  The bad news is that he would have needed to take the trial to verdict, get convicted, and be looking at 15-to-life instead of the 5 years Jack gave him for there to be an appeal, and that's a hell of gamble to take.  Which, again, is a position Danielle put her client in.  Unforgivable.

That said, the episode could have had Danielle do this, but they wanted Jack to get a "win" of some sort.  (How many episodes did Jack get completely beaten in by this point?  Not many.  The days of "Coma" and "Remand" are long gone.). Instead we get Adam Scott bitching about his circumstances before surrendering, and Luke Reilly pleading with Jack for mercy for his son.  Which Reilly does well, but we've already seen that, when he was pleading for mercy for his dad in "Ramparts" (9.09).  Can't go to that well every time.

So it doesn't quite make my "permanent archive" cut.  Close, but no DVR.  Sorry, Robbie.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Too many. Unethical or not, I was glad the judge override the deal once the little girl was safe.

She only did it after Foghorn Leghorn talked with her and guilted her into doing the right thing. Otherwise, she would have let it go.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

16.17, "America Inc."

Danielle Melnick needs to be disbarred.  Not for using the trial as a campaign against the Iraq War or private military contractors (that's a decent nullification strategy, and pretty much all she had, assuming she didn't know about the surprise Boatman was hiding), but because she left Robbie Howell (Adam Scott) to twist in the wind.  Once the Feds showed they wanted Boatman free at any cost and she had Jack's nuts in a vise, there's no excuse for not folding Robbie into the deal.  (If Jack wants a conviction on record, fine.  Robbie can plea to conspiracy or accessory or whatever and take a suspended sentence or probation.  Throw electronic monitoring in there, if you feel the need.  [No home confinement, though, since his parents depend on his income from his job.])

But she got the perfect deal for one client while not leveraging the situation to help the other one, too.  That's exactly why you don't have joint representation.  (Not that having a lawyer of his own would have helped Robbie in this situation, but that lawyer wouldn't have been under the ethical duty to use Boatman's info to save Robbie's ass, too.)

The good news is that Robbie would have a damn good "ineffective counsel" appeal.  The bad news is that he would have needed to take the trial to verdict, get convicted, and be looking at 15-to-life instead of the 5 years Jack gave him for there to be an appeal, and that's a hell of gamble to take.  Which, again, is a position Danielle put her client in.  Unforgivable.

That said, the episode could have had Danielle do this, but they wanted Jack to get a "win" of some sort.  (How many episodes did Jack get completely beaten in by this point?  Not many.  The days of "Coma" and "Remand" are long gone.). Instead we get Adam Scott bitching about his circumstances before surrendering, and Luke Reilly pleading with Jack for mercy for his son.  Which Reilly does well, but we've already seen that, when he was pleading for mercy for his dad in "Ramparts" (9.09).  Can't go to that well every time.

So it doesn't quite make my "permanent archive" cut.  Close, but no DVR.  Sorry, Robbie.

Remind me, was this the one where Jack finally lost it with her and screamed "WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK ANYWAY?" Because that made the whole episode worth watching, in spite of everything you said.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Remind me, was this the one where Jack finally lost it with her and screamed "WHO GIVES A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK ANYWAY?" Because that made the whole episode worth watching, in spite of everything you said.

Yes that was the episode. And yes that was an awesome moment. Melnick was trash in that episode, and she should’ve been disbarred back in season 13’s Open Season when she blatantly violated a judge’s order, I hated that Jack went to bat for her and saved her ass, she should’ve been disbarred for her actions. She was so smug and self righteous. 

[Halting Hex]

Well, Danielle isn't a very good lawyer.  Did she ever win a case?  You'd be much better off hiring Charles Garnett ("Denial", "Patsy") or Arthur Gold ("Matrimony", "Dissonance", probably would have beaten Stone in "Severance" if he didn't get too cute).  

I give her points because she always goes down swinging, but I'm side-eyeing her here.  Because I'm wondering if the reason she didn't take her opening to get Robbie off is because she wanted the trial to go to verdict, so that the jury would have to go on record about the war/private contractors, and you can't have a trial without defendants.  Shame, shame, shame. 

(In contrast, Terence Mann's character ["Mr. Oyler"] in "Whose Monkey is it, Anyway?" tells his client to take the deal, even though he'd been brought in as a replacement attorney specifically to make his [animal rights] argument and would certainly want the platform; it was the client's decision to keep going  [IMO, it was a bad verdict, but that's for another thread.])

[Prairie Rose]

Didn't both Dennis Farina and Annie Parisse depart at the end of S16? Ironically, later in 2006, Annie Parisse became related by marriage to Sam Waterston - her brother is married to his daughter.

 

[illdoc]

55 minutes ago, Prairie Rose said:

Didn't both Dennis Farina and Annie Parisse depart at the end of S16?

Yes. Alexandria Borgia on screen (death) and Joe Fontana off-screen (mentioned that he retired to Chicago at the beginning of S17).

[andromeda331]

Watching Life Line I'm surprised how unsympathetic Jack was to the murderer. The man really was stuck between a rock and a hard place. His son Patterson was being beaten up by L-12 in prison so many times and he knew the gang would have no problem killing him. He already gave the gang money and his car and it wasn't enough. Maybe he should have gone to the police especially when they wanted him to kill the reporter I can see why he didn't. They were in jail and that didn't stop them. Jack really didn't seem to feel bad for him at all. 

I do really like the seen between the father and his son. It's hard Patterson knows his father is most likely going to be killed and doing it all for him. I hope it didn't happen but it doesn't seem likely. I do like the father did feel remorse and didn't even fight during his trial. Telling his son he died when he killed the reporter. It's rare we have a murderer who actually does feel guilty about what he did. I wonder how Patterson did. Was he able to go on with his life or not? That's a very hard thing to live with. 

I'm not sure why the second in command didn't speak up when Jack told him the article coming out would name him as the father of his leader's son. He's a dead man either way. 

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Watching Life Line I'm surprised how unsympathetic Jack was to the murderer. The man really was stuck between a rock and a hard place. His son Patterson was being beaten up by L-12 in prison so many times and he knew the gang would have no problem killing him. He already gave the gang money and his car and it wasn't enough. Maybe he should have gone to the police especially when they wanted him to kill the reporter I can see why he didn't. They were in jail and that didn't stop them. Jack really didn't seem to feel bad for him at all. 

I do really like the seen between the father and his son. It's hard Patterson knows his father is most likely going to be killed and doing it all for him. I hope it didn't happen but it doesn't seem likely. I do like the father did feel remorse and didn't even fight during his trial. Telling his son he died when he killed the reporter. It's rare we have a murderer who actually does feel guilty about what he did. I wonder how Patterson did. Was he able to go on with his life or not? That's a very hard thing to live with. 

I'm not sure why the second in command didn't speak up when Jack told him the article coming out would name him as the father of his leader's son. He's a dead man either way. 

I didn’t feel bad for the murderer in Life Line, yes he was put in a hard position but I would NEVER murder an innocent person in cold blood no matter how tough of a position I was in. He deserved to spend the rest of his life behind bars.

I do wonder what happened to the killer’s son, it had to be a hard burden for him knowing his dad was pleading guilty and would likely be killed in prison in order to help him, their scene was good.

I also liked the scene between Jack/Arthur where they discuss the case and how to proceed. And the ending of the gangster threatening Borgia was frightening. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

This season was just so...riveting that I don't even remember this episode! I think only a handful, and most especially, the finale. UGH.

[Xeliou66]

I watched Thinking Makes It So today, the episode where Fontana’s sticks the kidnapper’s head in the toilet to get him to talk, very strong episode, I love Dworkin, seeing him is always a treat, he gave a great defense for a blatantly guilty client and he was hilarious as always.

I thought Fontana was way out of line, he didn’t even try to find other evidence that could lead him to the girl, he went straight to roughing up the perp and sticking his head in the toilet. It was rather convenient that Green wasn’t there. I wonder how Van Buren reacted when she found out about Fontana’s actions, I imagine she would’ve been furious. 

I really liked all of the legal discussions, both between Jack and Dworkin and Jack and Borgia. I liked Arthur’s story about going fishing as a kid as well, he had some colorful metaphors and stories. I understood why Borgia was disturbed by Fontana’s actions, but I was unsure why she felt bad about salvaging their case against the perp, he was a kidnapper and bank robber who belonged in prison. I thought Jack gave a very strong closing argument, so did Dworkin for that matter. Great episode. 

[Xeliou66]

Cost of Capital is on now, I love this episode, and while I’ve said before Borgia isn’t my favorite character, she was great in this episode confronting that scumbag doctor who covered up the rapes, and dealing with the killer’s daughter. Both Sophia and Andrew Keener were cold blooded shitstains - it was very satisfying seeing them get their comeuppance. I also loved Fontana telling Andrew that handcuffs were necessary when arresting Sophia, Fontana was something of a prick but he had some good moments when dealing with slimebags.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Xeliou66

[andromeda331]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:33 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Cost of Capital is on now, I love this episode, and while I’ve said before Borgia isn’t my favorite character, she was great in this episode confronting that scumbag doctor who covered up the rapes, and dealing with the killer’s daughter. Both Sophia and Andrew Keener were cold blooded shitstains - it was very satisfying seeing them get their comeuppance. I also loved Fontana telling Andrew that handcuffs were necessary when arresting Sophia, Fontana was something of a prick but he had some good moments when dealing with slimebags.

Yes, those two finally getting arrested was so wonderful. 

[Xeliou66]

12 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes, those two finally getting arrested was so wonderful. 

Yep, and that’s why I loved Fontana’s blunt “yes they are” when asked by creepy grandpa Keener if handcuffs were necessary when arresting his daughter. Also I loved Jack’s “no more deals” at the end when he said he told Keener’s lawyer to go to hell. And while I’m not a big Borgia fan, she was great confronting the doctor who covered it up and with the girl Katie. And also Green yelling “WAKE UP” to Sophia’s ex husband when he was not telling them about what happened. Overall it’s a fantastic episode, one of my favorites of the Fontana era. I’m not sure who was more evil, Andrew or Sophia Keener. 

[andromeda331]

55 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yep, and that’s why I loved Fontana’s blunt “yes they are” when asked by creepy grandpa Keener if handcuffs were necessary when arresting his daughter. Also I loved Jack’s “no more deals” at the end when he said he told Keener’s lawyer to go to hell. And while I’m not a big Borgia fan, she was great confronting the doctor who covered it up and with the girl Katie. And also Green yelling “WAKE UP” to Sophia’s ex husband when he was not telling them about what happened. Overall it’s a fantastic episode, one of my favorites of the Fontana era. I’m not sure who was more evil, Andrew or Sophia Keener. 

I don't know either. They were both very evil.

I do love Jack and Alex going off on the lawyer and doctor. Especially the doctor who with his 'tude. You covered up a rape of a child by her father. I hope he what he deserves too.

Edited May 4, 2022 by andromeda331

[Xeliou66]

On 5/4/2022 at 12:37 AM, andromeda331 said:

I don't know either. They were both very evil.

I do love Jack and Alex going off on the lawyer and doctor. Especially the doctor who with his 'tude. You covered up a rape of a child by her father. I hope he what he deserves too.

Yes I hope that piece of shit doctor lost his license at the very least, he should be charged with obstruction of justice. This was Borgia’s best episode IMO, usually she was bland but it was nice to see her put that doctor in his place and she was good with the girl as well. It might be my favorite episode of season 16, it was very good all around and the Keener’s were memorable, evil perps.

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes I hope that piece of shit doctor lost his license at the very least, he should be charged with obstruction of justice. This was Borgia’s best episode IMO, usually she was bland but it was nice to see her put that doctor in his place and she was good with the girl as well. It might be my favorite episode of season 16, it was very good all around and the Keener’s were memorable, evil perps.

So do I. He deserves at least that. I agree it's Borgia's best episode.

[Xeliou66]

Birthright was on tonight, and while it’s a pretty good episode, I just don’t get why Jack seemed to want to go easy on the nurse performing the sterilizations, he seemed somewhat OOC in this episode, he didn’t seem like himself, it felt like the writers just made Jack OOC in order to create some conflict, it felt off. I was 100% with Arthur, they were right to charge the nurse with murder, what she did was terrible. Also I didn’t understand why Robinette took the case, it didn’t seem like a case Robinette would take, especially given his strong anti-authority positions, it didn’t seem in character that he would take the case of a white nurse sterilizing black girls. Then again, Robinette’s characterization was all over the map in the 3 episodes where he returned, nothing was consistent about him and he just didn’t seem like himself, they didn’t do a great job with Paul. But Jack seemed off in this one, which weakened the episode. I sympathized with the witness who lost it on the stand, she was sterilized against her will and I understood why she snapped and yelled at Robinette and the defendant.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Birthright was on tonight, and while it’s a pretty good episode, I just don’t get why Jack seemed to want to go easy on the nurse performing the sterilizations, he seemed somewhat OOC in this episode, he didn’t seem like himself, it felt like the writers just made Jack OOC in order to create some conflict, it felt off. I was 100% with Arthur, they were right to charge the nurse with murder, what she did was terrible. Also I didn’t understand why Robinette took the case, it didn’t seem like a case Robinette would take, especially given his strong anti-authority positions, it didn’t seem in character that he would take the case of a white nurse sterilizing black girls. Then again, Robinette’s characterization was all over the map in the 3 episodes where he returned, nothing was consistent about him and he just didn’t seem like himself, they didn’t do a great job with Paul. But Jack seemed off in this one, which weakened the episode. I sympathized with the witness who lost it on the stand, she was sterilized against her will and I understood why she snapped and yelled at Robinette and the defendant.

I like the case too. The nurse making her case like she was doing the right thing. Seeing how the woman that died had already had her kid taken away from her for child abuse. I love the witness going off on the nurse. She completely disproved her theory because she did change. She straightened out her life but as she yelled at the nurse. "For what?" She can't have kids if that's what she wanted. But yeah they were off with Jack. He would have been the first to want to prosecute her because she was using her position to illegally sterilize women. There's no way Robinette would defend the nurse either. He would have been all over the DA's office demanding they prosecute her and what was taking so long? And using it to prove his post-DA's office views.   

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I like the case too. The nurse making her case like she was doing the right thing. Seeing how the woman that died had already had her kid taken away from her for child abuse. I love the witness going off on the nurse. She completely disproved her theory because she did change. She straightened out her life but as she yelled at the nurse. "For what?" She can't have kids if that's what she wanted. But yeah they were off with Jack. He would have been the first to want to prosecute her because she was using her position to illegally sterilize women. There's no way Robinette would defend the nurse either. He would have been all over the DA's office demanding they prosecute her and what was taking so long? And using it to prove his post-DA's office views.   

Yeah I like this case, it was an interesting plot - I liked the witness who lashed out at the defendant and really felt for her, she had turned her life around, while the girl who murdered the man at the start and was abusing her daughter was evil, not all girls in that position were evil or would never change, the witness was prove that some did change. Both Jack and Paul were OOC IMO, it was really weird how Jack was saying that people might find the defendant sympathetic and using that to attempt to go easier on her, that just didn’t make sense for Jack, it was like they wrote him that way just to create debate and conflict, at least at the end Jack seemed to be outraged at the nurse, telling her that what the world didn’t need was her when she again tried to justify her actions. And Paul was even more OOC, they just never had a handle on his character after he left the DA’s office, but there’s no way Paul would take the nurse as a client, if anything he would be one of the ones pressuring Arthur and the DA’s office to harshly prosecute the nurse. They just never knew what to do with Paul when he made his appearances it seemed. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I like this case, it was an interesting plot - I liked the witness who lashed out at the defendant and really felt for her, she had turned her life around, while the girl who murdered the man at the start and was abusing her daughter was evil, not all girls in that position were evil or would never change, the witness was prove that some did change. Both Jack and Paul were OOC IMO, it was really weird how Jack was saying that people might find the defendant sympathetic and using that to attempt to go easier on her, that just didn’t make sense for Jack, it was like they wrote him that way just to create debate and conflict, at least at the end Jack seemed to be outraged at the nurse, telling her that what the world didn’t need was her when she again tried to justify her actions.

There's no way Jack would think the jury would find the nurse sympathetic. The same guy who asked the wife of murderer who was justifying it because it was for Israel, what if the victim had been Jewish? I don't think so. The jury would have had no problem convicting her either. No matter how much they hated the woman who was murdered. Sterlizing women without their knowledge its something most people would have a problem with.

Quote

And Paul was even more OOC, they just never had a handle on his character after he left the DA’s office, but there’s no way Paul would take the nurse as a client, if anything he would be one of the ones pressuring Arthur and the DA’s office to harshly prosecute the nurse. They just never knew what to do with Paul when he made his appearances it seemed. 

They changed him completely. Did they want him to against the DA? Did they just think it would be a great story that a former regular came back so different? They tried to explain his sudden 180 with Paul referencing a conversation with Ben about whether he was lawyer who was black or a black lawyer.  Which it doesn't. Paul does say that in an episode with Ben but in the same episode Out of the Half-Light

Paul Robinette: So what? So what-what, we sit back and watch him tear the city in half? He's already set back race relations 30 years! I work with these people. I know how they feel, there is no cover-up! You know me! You think I'd be a party to it? This is unbelievable! I become a lawyer, turn down Wall Street, go into the one area I think I can help, and everybody thinks I'm a damn Oreo! Excuse me, Father.

That Paul isn't never going to make the arguments he does as a defense lawyer much less believe them. They could have had him change sides for personal reasons or even just had seen how many defendents he seem come through with terrible lawyers too busy push their agenda then defending their client.  

Edited August 3, 2022 by andromeda331

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

There's no way Jack would think the jury would find the nurse sympathetic. The same guy who asked the wife of murderer who was justifying it because it was for Israel, what if the victim had been Jewish? I don't think so. The jury would have had a problem convicting her either. No matter how much they hated the woman who was murdered. Sterlizing women without their knowledge its something most people would have a problem with.

They changed him completely. Did they want him to against the DA? Did they just think it would be a great story that a former regular came back so different? They tried to explain his sudden 180 with Paul referencing a conversation with Ben about whether he was lawyer who was black or a black lawyer.  Which it doesn't. Paul does say that in an episode with Ben but in the same episode Out of the Half-Light

Paul Robinette: So what? So what-what, we sit back and watch him tear the city in half? He's already set back race relations 30 years! I work with these people. I know how they feel, there is no cover-up! You know me! You think I'd be a party to it? This is unbelievable! I become a lawyer, turn down Wall Street, go into the one area I think I can help, and everybody thinks I'm a damn Oreo! Excuse me, Father.

That Paul isn't never going to make the arguments he does as a defense lawyer much less believe them. They could have had him change sides for personal reasons or even just had seen how many defendents he seem come through with terrible lawyers too busy push their agenda then defending their client.  

Yeah I don’t know why Jack was so OOC in Birthright, he wasn’t usually so concerned about jury’s finding a defendant sympathetic and his bringing up past cases where sterilization was used just felt odd, as did his line where he implied Arthur was more concerned about the politics of the case, and Arthur responded “this isn’t about politics, I’m outraged!”. 

As for Paul, they just didn’t have a clue as to what to do with him, in both of his other appearances since leaving the DA’s office, Custody in season 6 and Fear America in season 17, Paul was basing his defenses on calling authorities racist to their core, yet in this episode he defends a white nurse sterilizing black girls? That made no sense. They just did such a poor job with Paul in his appearances after leaving the DA’s office, no consistency to his character whatsoever, I really wish they had done better writing for him, he was such a good ADA. It always pisses me off when they bring a character back just to trash them or write them OOC, I’m still angry about what they did to Jamie Ross in season 21.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I don’t know why Jack was so OOC in Birthright, he wasn’t usually so concerned about jury’s finding a defendant sympathetic and his bringing up past cases where sterilization was used just felt odd, as did his line where he implied Arthur was more concerned about the politics of the case, and Arthur responded “this isn’t about politics, I’m outraged!”. 

Yeah, it's just odd. Jack normally would be just as outrage.  

Quote

As for Paul, they just didn’t have a clue as to what to do with him, in both of his other appearances since leaving the DA’s office, Custody in season 6 and Fear America in season 17, Paul was basing his defenses on calling authorities racist to their core, yet in this episode he defends a white nurse sterilizing black girls? That made no sense. They just did such a poor job with Paul in his appearances after leaving the DA’s office, no consistency to his character whatsoever, I really wish they had done better writing for him, he was such a good ADA. It always pisses me off when they bring a character back just to trash them or write them OOC, I’m still angry about what they did to Jamie Ross in season 21.

I don't think they did. For some reason they decided he'll just always accuse authorities racists something Paul never would do and then give him an episode where he doesn't which is the one case that proves his new beliefs. Why would you do that? He should have had field day with that one. But nope suddenly he's not. It's odd that it's from season 16. It feels more like something from season 17. Paul was the first main character they brought but completely messed up his characterization. I didn't think they could do any worse until Jamie's episode in season 21.

Edited August 4, 2022 by andromeda331

[Xeliou66]

18 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, it's just odd. Jack normally would be just as outrage.  

I don't they did. For some reason they decided he'll just always accuse authorities racists something Paul never would do and then give him an episode where he doesn't which is the one case that proves his new beliefs. Why would you do that? He should have had field day with that one. But nope suddenly he's not. It's odd that it's from season 16. It feels more like something from season 17. Paul was the first main character they brought but completely messed up his characterization. I didn't think they could do any worse until Jamie's episode in season 21.

Yeah they did a poor job when Paul came back, he was a completely different character and was all over the map. But hey, at least they didn’t make him a criminal like they did to Jamie in season 21, that was appalling, I have no idea why they thought that was a good idea, throwing her under the bus as a cheap plot device, they had done a good job with Jamie’s appearances up until then, and it could’ve been a nice surprise for the viewers to see Jamie, but instead they shit on her. Not to mention the continuity was screwy as TBJ had shown her as a judge, but she was a prosecutor again in season 21. Why couldn’t they have just had her as the presiding judge in the trial? And they deleted her only scene with Jack. So poorly done.

But anyway, back to Birthright, this was a good episode that could’ve been really good if it wasn’t for the odd writing for Jack, and it wasn’t a good case to bring Paul back for. But I did like the case. 

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah they did a poor job when Paul came back, he was a completely different character and was all over the map. But hey, at least they didn’t make him a criminal like they did to Jamie in season 21, that was appalling, I have no idea why they thought that was a good idea, throwing her under the bus as a cheap plot device, they had done a good job with Jamie’s appearances up until then, and it could’ve been a nice surprise for the viewers to see Jamie, but instead they shit on her. Not to mention the continuity was screwy as TBJ had shown her as a judge, but she was a prosecutor again in season 21. Why couldn’t they have just had her as the presiding judge in the trial? And they deleted her only scene with Jack. So poorly done.

I wished they had her as the judge. That would have been perfect. 

Quote

But anyway, back to Birthright, this was a good episode that could’ve been really good if it wasn’t for the odd writing for Jack, and it wasn’t a good case to bring Paul back for. But I did like the case. 

So do I. It was a great case.

[Spartan Girl]

“Choice of Evils” is on, and I have to roll my eyes at the end where Borgia and Jack are dreading the impending birth of Danny’s baby because they think he’ll inherit the father’s violent tendencies. Not saying it isn’t a concrete factor, but instead of worrying about the dead father’s genetics, maybe they should worry more think the bigger factor that the living baby mama is a trashy bitch who is nowhere near fit to raise a child.

Yes, the point of the episode is that a bad seed sometimes is just a bad seed no matter how they’re raised, but still.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

20 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

“Choice of Evils” is on, and I have to roll my eyes at the end where Borgia and Jack are dreading the impending birth of Danny’s baby because they think he’ll inherit the father’s violent tendencies. Not saying it isn’t a concrete factor, but instead of worrying about the dead father’s genetics, maybe they should worry more think the bigger factor that the living baby mama is a trashy bitch who is nowhere near fit to raise a child.

Yes, the point of the episode is that a bad seed sometimes is just a bad seed no matter how they’re raised, but still.

Agreed, Danny’s girlfriend was a lowlife who wasn’t qualified at all to raise a child, and I think that child might be better off in foster care. Choice of Evils was somewhat of a knockoff of the season 13 episode Mother’s Day, very similar plots.

Cost of Capital is now on, this is one of my favorites from season 16 and definitely Borgia’s best episode, Borgia was really good with the daughter and I liked her confronting that morally bankrupt doctor who covered up the rapes. Very good episode.

[TakomaSnark]

Farina's performance in 'Positive' always reinforces that whatever misigivngs had about Fontana replacing Briscoe, he delivered a highly underrated turn. His reaction to that young man killing himself is heartbreaking.

[Xeliou66]

5 minutes ago, TakomaSnark said:

Farina's performance in 'Positive' always reinforces that whatever misigivngs had about Fontana replacing Briscoe, he delivered a highly underrated turn. His reaction to that young man killing himself is heartbreaking.

I have mixed feelings about Fontana - while he wasn’t a very likable character, he frequently acted like a prick and had authoritarian tendencies, he also was intriguing and not dull, and had some redeeming qualities, I did like some of the things he would say to the perps, and he did have some compassion even if he didn’t show it always. I like that they went with someone very different to Briscoe, as Briscoe/Orbach was a legend who couldn’t be replaced and replacing him with a clone-like character would’ve been a really bad move, so I appreciate how they went with a totally different character in Fontana. Anyone who replaced Lennie would get some hate, and I understand why some people dislike Fontana, and while I didn’t always find Fontana likable I do think he’s a compelling character, unlike the god-awful beauty queen Cassady in season 17. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

“Choice of Evils” is on, and I have to roll my eyes at the end where Borgia and Jack are dreading the impending birth of Danny’s baby because they think he’ll inherit the father’s violent tendencies. Not saying it isn’t a concrete factor, but instead of worrying about the dead father’s genetics, maybe they should worry more think the bigger factor that the living baby mama is a trashy bitch who is nowhere near fit to raise a child.

Yes, the point of the episode is that a bad seed sometimes is just a bad seed no matter how they’re raised, but still.

2 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Agreed, Danny’s girlfriend was a lowlife who wasn’t qualified at all to raise a child, and I think that child might be better off in foster care. Choice of Evils was somewhat of a knockoff of the season 13 episode Mother’s Day, very similar plots.

I agree. It's crap that genes are what makes people crappy. Sure there's cases where parents and their kids end up criminals. But for the most part that's not the case. Most abused kids grow up not to abuse their own because they know how it felt. How many serial killers' I'm not sure how much his father factored into him. I think his mother clearly did. She went through a lot but it also felt like a lot of unresolved issues she with her ex transfered to her son. Or was it more his stepfather? The reason she ended up killing her son was because her husband threatened to take their kids and leave. From the way he talked about him he clearly hated Danny and wanted him out of his life. I really got the feeling he felt like that from the moment he started dating her. I can see him bitching every time Danny messed up how he's just like his father. I don't remember if it was her or her husband who mentioned there were a lot of fights between them over Danny.  He made his wife choose between one son and two others. I wonder if she when from one shitty husband to another.

Quote

Cost of Capital is now on, this is one of my favorites from season 16 and definitely Borgia’s best episode, Borgia was really good with the daughter and I liked her confronting that morally bankrupt doctor who covered up the rapes. Very good episode.

I love that episode. I agree it was Borgia's best. She was great with the daughter and I love her confronting the doctor too. He dared to be upset by how she talked to him. Dude you helped a rapist cover up his raping his daughter then later the rape of his granddaughter. Borgia went easy on you. I really do hope that he ended up getting arrested too. Poor Katie. Her mother was just as bad as her father. "What was I suppose to do? Cry." Maybe not leave your daughter alone with him? She facilitated the rape of her own daughter for her own power. It's scary that murdering her boyfriend and getting her ex to help in exchange for custody of their daughter, wasn't the worse thing she ever did.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. It's crap that genes are what makes people crappy. Sure there's cases where parents and their kids end up criminals. But for the most part that's not the case. Most abused kids grow up not to abuse their own because they know how it felt. How many serial killers' I'm not sure how much his father factored into him. I think his mother clearly did. She went through a lot but it also felt like a lot of unresolved issues she with her ex transfered to her son. Or was it more his stepfather? The reason she ended up killing her son was because her husband threatened to take their kids and leave. From the way he talked about him he clearly hated Danny and wanted him out of his life. I really got the feeling he felt like that from the moment he started dating her. I can see him bitching every time Danny messed up how he's just like his father. I don't remember if it was her or her husband who mentioned there were a lot of fights between them over Danny.  He made his wife choose between one son and two others. I wonder if she when from one shitty husband to another.

I love that episode. I agree it was Borgia's best. She was great with the daughter and I love her confronting the doctor too. He dared to be upset by how she talked to him. Dude you helped a rapist cover up his raping his daughter then later the rape of his granddaughter. Borgia went easy on you. I really do hope that he ended up getting arrested too. Poor Katie. Her mother was just as bad as her father. "What was I suppose to do? Cry." Maybe not leave your daughter alone with him? She facilitated the rape of her own daughter for her own power. It's scary that murdering her boyfriend and getting her ex to help in exchange for custody of their daughter, wasn't the worse thing she ever did.

Both Sophia and Andrew Keener were just pure evil, Andrew was a pedophile rapist and Sophia was just a heartless sociopath. I loved how Jack said “no more deals” at the end when dealing with those scum. The one character I couldn’t get a good read on was Katie’s father/Sophia’s ex husband, he did seem to care about Katie but I didn’t get why he wasn’t more determined to figure out who abused Katie when he found out about it, I guess Katie was terrified into silence by Sophia and Andrew and wouldn’t talk to anyone but it would seem like the dad would’ve called the cops, but I guess Sophia convinced him not to. Plus he helped Sophia cover up the murder and wouldn’t tell the truth at the start, he wasn’t a great dude, I loved when Green yelled “WAKE UP” at him in the interrogation room, but at least he seemed to care about his daughter. The defense attorney, Vanessa Galiano, was very abrasive as usual in this episode, just like she was in her other appearances. It’s a great episode, and yeah I hope they charged that doctor for covering up the rapes as well.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. It's crap that genes are what makes people crappy. Sure there's cases where parents and their kids end up criminals. But for the most part that's not the case. Most abused kids grow up not to abuse their own because they know how it felt. How many serial killers' I'm not sure how much his father factored into him. I think his mother clearly did. She went through a lot but it also felt like a lot of unresolved issues she with her ex transfered to her son. Or was it more his stepfather? The reason she ended up killing her son was because her husband threatened to take their kids and leave. From the way he talked about him he clearly hated Danny and wanted him out of his life. I really got the feeling he felt like that from the moment he started dating her. I can see him bitching every time Danny messed up how he's just like his father. I don't remember if it was her or her husband who mentioned there were a lot of fights between them over Danny.  He made his wife choose between one son and two others. I wonder if she when from one shitty husband to another.

Well, now, don’t overlook the fact that Danny really WAS a sociopath that starting off torturing animals and other kids and that behavior clearly escalated to beating up his girlfriend and robbing and shooting innocent people. I don’t exactly blame the stepfather for not wanting that around his own kids. That doesn’t make him a shitty husband for giving her an ultimatum; it sounds like it was a long time coming.

I agree that the mom might have projected a lot onto Danny regarding his birth father, but it wasn’t exactly unjustified. And yeah, killing him was more about keeping her own family than “protecting other people.” 

[TakomaSnark]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I have mixed feelings about Fontana - while he wasn’t a very likable character, he frequently acted like a prick and had authoritarian tendencies, he also was intriguing and not dull, and had some redeeming qualities, I did like some of the things he would say to the perps, and he did have some compassion even if he didn’t show it always. I like that they went with someone very different to Briscoe, as Briscoe/Orbach was a legend who couldn’t be replaced and replacing him with a clone-like character would’ve been a really bad move, so I appreciate how they went with a totally different character in Fontana. Anyone who replaced Lennie would get some hate, and I understand why some people dislike Fontana, and while I didn’t always find Fontana likable I do think he’s a compelling character, unlike the god-awful beauty queen Cassady in season 17. 

The only redeeming part of Cassady's run was Van Buren's never-ending contempt for Cassady's existence. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Both Sophia and Andrew Keener were just pure evil, Andrew was a pedophile rapist and Sophia was just a heartless sociopath. I loved how Jack said “no more deals” at the end when dealing with those scum. The one character I couldn’t get a good read on was Katie’s father/Sophia’s ex husband, he did seem to care about Katie but I didn’t get why he wasn’t more determined to figure out who abused Katie when he found out about it, I guess Katie was terrified into silence by Sophia and Andrew and wouldn’t talk to anyone but it would seem like the dad would’ve called the cops, but I guess Sophia convinced him not to. Plus he helped Sophia cover up the murder and wouldn’t tell the truth at the start, he wasn’t a great dude, I loved when Green yelled “WAKE UP” at him in the interrogation room, but at least he seemed to care about his daughter. The defense attorney, Vanessa Galiano, was very abrasive as usual in this episode, just like she was in her other appearances. It’s a great episode, and yeah I hope they charged that doctor for covering up the rapes as well.

He's the only one I can't figure out either. He cared about his daughter but he went along with helping his ex. Why not just call the cops on his ex? That would settle custody of their kid? How did he end up married to her in the first place? It's hard to imagine Sophia was any nicer years ago. He wasn't that determined to find out out who hurt his daughter. Why? Was he beaten down after years being with Sophia? Was he a crappy person too? 

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Well, now, don’t overlook the fact that Danny really WAS a sociopath that starting off torturing animals and other kids and that behavior clearly escalated to beating up his girlfriend and robbing and shooting innocent people. I don’t exactly blame the stepfather for not wanting that around his own kids. That doesn’t make him a shitty husband for giving her an ultimatum; it sounds like it was a long time coming.

I agree that the mom might have projected a lot onto Danny regarding his birth father, but it wasn’t exactly unjustified. And yeah, killing him was more about keeping her own family than “protecting other people.” 

True he was a sociopath and had already been hurting people. Maybe he was already crappy when the stepfather came into the picture. I'm just not sure about the stepfather. 

[Xeliou66]

18 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

He's the only one I can't figure out either. He cared about his daughter but he went along with helping his ex. Why not just call the cops on his ex? That would settle custody of their kid? How did he end up married to her in the first place? It's hard to imagine Sophia was any nicer years ago. He wasn't that determined to find out out who hurt his daughter. Why? Was he beaten down after years being with Sophia? Was he a crappy person too? 

Yeah I couldn’t get a read on him, he did seem to love Katie, but why didn’t he call the cops when he found out his daughter had been raped? That’s what any normal parent would do. I’m sure Sophia told him not to, but he seemed weirdly detached from the situation, he didn’t seem all that determined to protect Katie, and yeah I’m not sure why he didn’t call the police as soon as Sophia told him what she had done, I guess he was just scared of her, and yeah who knows why he ever married Sophia, I’m sure she was always a nasty witch. I couldn’t get a good read on him. It is a great episode, with a lot to like in it, good detective and legal stuff.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah I couldn’t get a read on him, he did seem to love Katie, but why didn’t he call the cops when he found out his daughter had been raped? That’s what any normal parent would do. I’m sure Sophia told him not to, but he seemed weirdly detached from the situation, he didn’t seem all that determined to protect Katie, and yeah I’m not sure why he didn’t call the police as soon as Sophia told him what she had done, I guess he was just scared of her, and yeah who knows why he ever married Sophia, I’m sure she was always a nasty witch. I couldn’t get a good read on him. It is a great episode, with a lot to like in it, good detective and legal stuff.

That was really the only flaw in the episode. Well, that and seeing the doctor arrested or even a reference to it. It would have been a perfect episode. But it had a great case. Murder that lead to something much worse. Sophia and Andrew were great villains. Poor Katie was sweet kid. Both the detectives and lawyers were good. I love that Borgia had great moments in this episode. 

[Xeliou66]

59 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That was really the only flaw in the episode. Well, that and seeing the doctor arrested or even a reference to it. It would have been a perfect episode. But it had a great case. Murder that lead to something much worse. Sophia and Andrew were great villains. Poor Katie was sweet kid. Both the detectives and lawyers were good. I love that Borgia had great moments in this episode. 

Yeah I would’ve liked a line about the doctor being charged along with Andrew Keener. It was a terrific episode, the investigation was really good and I liked how it led into the discovery of Andrew Keener being a pedophile and just how evil and heartless Sophia really was. The Keener’s were such memorable villains. I felt really bad for Katie, and while at least her dad seemed to care about her, her dad also seemed kind of weak in some ways. I loved when Fontana insisted handcuffs were necessary when arresting Sophia when Andrew whined about it, some of the stuff Fontana would say to the perps was great. I liked that Borgia showed passion in the episode as well, she was usually pretty dull. 

[Xeliou66]

Life Line was just on - I didn’t feel any sympathy for Drucker, he killed a woman in cold blood on behalf of a gang, I don’t care that he did it because his son was being threatened, there’s no excuse for him murdering someone, he deserved to rot in prison. The gang members were menacing and the ending where one of them threatens Borgia is memorable, but it didn’t justify Drucker killing someone. The victim’s boss who suggested she go undercover with the gang was a jackass, what was he thinking? He had no regards for how dangerous the situation was. I liked Arthur’s line “vacate a sentence, is that you Jack McCoy?”.

Birthright is on now, and as I’ve said before I just don’t get Jack or Paul in this episode. It was OOC for Jack to have any sympathy for that witch of a nurse, and it was even more OOC for Paul to defend her, they really had no idea what to do with Paul, it made no sense that he would defend a white nurse for sterilizing black women when he had previously basically said the whole system was racist, he was really all over the map. The premise of the episode was interesting but they really botched the execution of it IMO.

 

[Xeliou66]

I have to say that at the end of Ghosts it’s kind of satisfying to see the victim’s father shut the door in Fontana’s face and reject his apology, Fontana was egotistic and smug a lot of the time and thought he didn’t have to play by the rules, and I liked seeing him knocked down a peg. Fontana screwed up on the case and I liked that he didn’t get let off the hook by the dad. He also botched things by agreeing to help the brother with a liquor license if he told the truth about his brother. Fontana was just so smug that I enjoyed seeing him knocked off his high horse.   
On the other hand, Fontana had some good lines when dealing with certain perps, I’m watching Age of Innocence now and I love when he calls the scumbag Reverend Dwyer a “bomb throwing phony”. The family in that episode were bonkers IMO, I can’t imagine wanting a loved one to suffer in a coma for years and years instead of taking them off life support, I certainly wouldn’t want that if something happened to me. I couldn’t tell if the family genuinely believed that there was a chance she would wake up for some reason, or if it was about religion for them. Either way they were manipulated by that publicity hungry asswipe Dwyer. 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I have to say that at the end of Ghosts it’s kind of satisfying to see the victim’s father shut the door in Fontana’s face and reject his apology, Fontana was egotistic and smug a lot of the time and thought he didn’t have to play by the rules, and I liked seeing him knocked down a peg. Fontana screwed up on the case and I liked that he didn’t get let off the hook by the dad. He also botched things by agreeing to help the brother with a liquor license if he told the truth about his brother. Fontana was just so smug that I enjoyed seeing him knocked off his high horse.   

I like that Fontana did go apologize. He realized he messed up and tried to apologize. I'm also glad the father shut the door. That's realistic. The detective who accused you and went after you for the murder of your child coming to apologize? After everything he put you through? Slamming the door in his fact was perfect. 

 

Quote

 

On the other hand, Fontana had some good lines when dealing with certain perps, I’m watching Age of Innocence now and I love when he calls the scumbag Reverend Dwyer a “bomb throwing phony”. The family in that episode were bonkers IMO, I can’t imagine wanting a loved one to suffer in a coma for years and years instead of taking them off life support, I certainly wouldn’t want that if something happened to me. I couldn’t tell if the family genuinely believed that there was a chance she would wake up for some reason, or if it was about religion for them. Either way they were manipulated by that publicity hungry asswipe Dwyer. 

 

He really did have some good lines.  I really don't know in that episode if it was religion or some chance she would wake up. I can see it either way. Dwyer was horrible.

[Xeliou66]

17 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I like that Fontana did go apologize. He realized he messed up and tried to apologize. I'm also glad the father shut the door. That's realistic. The detective who accused you and went after you for the murder of your child coming to apologize? After everything he put you through? Slamming the door in his fact was perfect. 

 

He really did have some good lines.  I really don't know in that episode if it was religion or some chance she would wake up. I can see it either way. Dwyer was horrible.

I have mixed feelings overall about Fontana - he could be a really smug prick at times, but he had some good lines to the perps as well. He was in the exceptionally difficult position of replacing Briscoe and I did like that they made the character very different from Lennie.

It pisses me off how Dwyer got off in Age of Innocence but unfortunately sometimes that does happen. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I have mixed feelings overall about Fontana - he could be a really smug prick at times, but he had some good lines to the perps as well. He was in the exceptionally difficult position of replacing Briscoe and I did like that they made the character very different from Lennie.

Some episodes I liked him and some I don't. I have more symapthy for the actor. There was just no replacing Briscoe and I really don't think I would liked anyone who came on after Lennie. I just loved the character so much. Lennie and Green are my favorite pairing. They just worked so good together. It just felt so off to see Green partnering with anyone else. But worse for me was Cassidy and Falco. I do like that they made him different from Lennie. I hate when shows bring a new character that is just like the one their replacing.

Quote

 

It pisses me off how Dwyer got off in Age of Innocence but unfortunately sometimes that does happen. 

 

Me too. Not even McCoy or Stone can win them all but I still hate when it happens. Dwyer was just so horrible.

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Some episodes I liked him and some I don't. I have more symapthy for the actor. There was just no replacing Briscoe and I really don't think I would liked anyone who came on after Lennie. I just loved the character so much. Lennie and Green are my favorite pairing. They just worked so good together. It just felt so off to see Green partnering with anyone else. But worse for me was Cassidy and Falco. I do like that they made him different from Lennie. I hate when shows bring a new character that is just like the one their replacing.

Me too. Not even McCoy or Stone can win them all but I still hate when it happens. Dwyer was just so horrible.

Oh yes Falco and Beauty Queen are the worst. Agreed that Lennie/Green is by far my favorite pairing of detectives. 
Dwyer was such a manipulator and a publicity seeking ghoul. At least the brother, father and bomb maker went to prison, but Dwyer should’ve joined them. I just couldn’t figure out that family - I just can’t imagine anyone letting a loved one stay comatose and suffering for years and years. 

[andromeda331]

On 3/4/2023 at 9:05 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Oh yes Falco and Beauty Queen are the worst. Agreed that Lennie/Green is by far my favorite pairing of detectives. 
Dwyer was such a manipulator and a publicity seeking ghoul. At least the brother, father and bomb maker went to prison, but Dwyer should’ve joined them. I just couldn’t figure out that family - I just can’t imagine anyone letting a loved one stay comatose and suffering for years and years. 

Some people have woken up years and even decades after being in coma. Although it is extremely rare. Some people never give up hope or can't let go. I don't know if it's right to hold out for so long on a very, very slim possibility. What if she never wakes up? While I don't like her husband letting her go was the right thing to do. At some point you have to accept that she's not going to wake up and let her go.  

[Xeliou66]

Thinking Makes It So was just on, this is a really good episode, but I have to say Fontana wasn’t good here - not only did he abuse his power in a pretty atrocious way, he didn’t even really try to find the girl in a legal way, he pretty much went straight to dunking the guy’s head in the toilet - had he just done his job the right way, he would’ve found the girl and the case against the kidnapper would’ve been rock solid and never in jeopardy. Fontana’s actions nearly let the kidnapper off. And it was very convenient for the plot that Fontana and Green split up - while Green sometimes had a hot temper, he never would’ve gone along with sticking someone’s head in a toilet, none of the detectives on L&O other than Fontana would’ve done it or gone along with it IMO. And I would’ve loved to have seen Van Buren’s reaction to this, she was barely in the episode, I think she would’ve been FURIOUS with Fontana.

Dworkin was entertaining and enjoyable as always, he’s a great lawyer, I liked the interactions between him and Jack. Jack gave a strong closing as usual, regardless of Fontana’s actions, the perp was guilty of kidnapping and robbery and deserved to go to prison for it, and while Dworkin did his best to defend the guy, Jack was right that Dworkin’s closing was putting things into a vacuum, Fontana abusing his authority doesn’t excuse the defendant from his crimes, which he was blatantly guilty of. I liked the scene where Arthur told the story about fishing with his dad, Arthur was a colorful guy who had some interesting scenes. 

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Thinking Makes It So was just on, this is a really good episode, but I have to say Fontana wasn’t good here - not only did he abuse his power in a pretty atrocious way, he didn’t even really try to find the girl in a legal way, he pretty much went straight to dunking the guy’s head in the toilet - had he just done his job the right way, he would’ve found the girl and the case against the kidnapper would’ve been rock solid and never in jeopardy. Fontana’s actions nearly let the kidnapper off. And it was very convenient for the plot that Fontana and Green split up - while Green sometimes had a hot temper, he never would’ve gone along with sticking someone’s head in a toilet, none of the detectives on L&O other than Fontana would’ve done it or gone along with it IMO. And I would’ve loved to have seen Van Buren’s reaction to this, she was barely in the episode, I think she would’ve been FURIOUS with Fontana.

Dworkin was entertaining and enjoyable as always, he’s a great lawyer, I liked the interactions between him and Jack. Jack gave a strong closing as usual, regardless of Fontana’s actions, the perp was guilty of kidnapping and robbery and deserved to go to prison for it, and while Dworkin did his best to defend the guy, Jack was right that Dworkin’s closing was putting things into a vacuum, Fontana abusing his authority doesn’t excuse the defendant from his crimes, which he was blatantly guilty of. I liked the scene where Arthur told the story about fishing with his dad, Arthur was a colorful guy who had some interesting scenes. 

The only part I liked was Jack's closing. I don't like Fontana's actions. Yeah, I get they were up against a clock but they weren't out of solutions yet. But also there was no guarantee that he would tell the truth. Beating up a suspect or dunking him in a toilet doesn't mean he's going to tell the truth. One thing I like about Burn Notice is Michael is repeatedly telling people he won't torture anyone even when things are looking dire because it's unreliable. The person will say anything to make it stop. Even though the kidnapper said where the girl was but they didn't know when he said it he was telling the truth. What if he did lie? 

I also like you pointing out how the kidnapper almost walked. That's one thing I wish was brought up more often when a cop goes to far to get information or beats up a suspect or etc. That's exactly what could happen. It almost happened here. How was that going to feel if he had walked? They found the girl, they knew he was guilty but walked because of what Fontana died. They never get justice for the girl and he was free to kidnap again. 

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The only part I liked was Jack's closing. I don't like Fontana's actions. Yeah, I get they were up against a clock but they weren't out of solutions yet. But also there was no guarantee that he would tell the truth. Beating up a suspect or dunking him in a toilet doesn't mean he's going to tell the truth. One thing I like about Burn Notice is Michael is repeatedly telling people he won't torture anyone even when things are looking dire because it's unreliable. The person will say anything to make it stop. Even though the kidnapper said where the girl was but they didn't know when he said it he was telling the truth. What if he did lie? 

I also like you pointing out how the kidnapper almost walked. That's one thing I wish was brought up more often when a cop goes to far to get information or beats up a suspect or etc. That's exactly what could happen. It almost happened here. How was that going to feel if he had walked? They found the girl, they knew he was guilty but walked because of what Fontana died. They never get justice for the girl and he was free to kidnap again. 

Yeah Fontana’s actions were wrong, and it almost led to the perp getting off where he could continue he pattern of robbery, kidnapping and fraud. Fontana didn’t seem to even care about that, and if he had just done his job the right way he would’ve discovered the girl anyway. And yeah torture is unreliable as well as immoral. I just am not a big Fontana fan because of how he had some fascist tendencies and seemed to be fond of abusing his power, and he had an aura of smugness about him. Like I say, it was convenient that we didn’t see Green or Van Buren after Fontana’s stunt, Anita would’ve been livid with him IMO.

I liked Dworkin as always though, and Jack was really good as well. Borgia was a bit whiny, I get that she was disturbed by Fontana’s actions but she seemed to feel bad that the perp was going to prison, which was ridiculous, the dude was blatantly guilty of kidnapping and bank robbery. Borgia was kind of acting like Serena in this one. So I like the episode for Dworkin and Jack, but Fontana was a moron who abused his power greatly in this one.