Unpopular Opinions

[Bitterswete]

I find it hard to judge characters in situations where the writers are clearly putting a joke above character integrity. I believe it is the very next episode where Xander stops trying to find a school shooter he thinks is about to strike because he is distracted by jello, and I find the Angel punching thing to be equally silly.

 

To me it's like a prank in real life. Just as I might find one prank funny, another might cross a line that makes me see it as cruel rather than humorous. But, of course, it's subjective, because a prank I think is too mean-spirited to be funny might be hilarious to someone else.

 

So while the writers had Angel sucker-punch Xander, and leave him lying unconscious in the street, as a funny moment, to me it crossed the line into cruel, so wasn't funny. And, since I didn't see the humor, I just saw the mean-spiritedness.

 

Also, while that moment was done as a joke in that episode, I actually don't see it as out of character for Angel. Later on, he did similar things in more serious situations.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Earl Is Dead]

On a much lighter note, I thought of an UO while watching an S4 episode last night:  While BtVS gave us many, many crimes against fashion over the years, I think that S5 and especially S4 Willow's egregious ensembles made sense for a girl her age, just busting out of the high school and "nerd" mold and experimenting with who she was and how she wanted to portray herself to others.  There were still baffling eyesores, don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying I kind of get it.  Maybe because I once knew a girl (and I'm not naming names or anything so let's just call her "Merl is Fed"), who thought it was acceptable to wear a full length hooded cloak around campus when SHE first went to college.  It was not acceptable, because she did not go to college in Sherwood Forest, but it felt like freedom at the time and she enjoyed herself for about a week until she wisded up.  (Or so she told me).

[Youngy]

Since I'm new here but not new to "Buffy," I'll offer my own rankings...

(Watched Seasons 2-7 in "real-time;" had to watch Season 1 on DVD. Have watched episodes repeatedly on either cable or DVD since.)

Seasons...

S. 2

S. 3

S. 4

S. 5

S. 7

S. 6

S. 1

I thought it was pretty much perfect in Seasons 2 and 3 ("Becoming" makes up for earlier S. 2 goofiness to overcome all of S. 3 excellence). Seasons 4 and 5 continue a strong run of a great series. Fades with dignity in Seasons 7, 6. Season 1 was too unformed. Sort-of promises what was to come, but only if you had faith. So to speak.

Episodes. (Cheating a bit with two-parters...)

1) "Becoming" (part 1&2)

2) "Hush"

3) "Surprise," "Innocence"

4) "Once More With Feeling"

5) "The Body"

6) "The Prom"

7) "Graduation Day" (part 1&2)

8) "This Year's Girl," "Who Are You?"

9) "The Gift"

10) "Chosen"

And in the last season, I really liked "Conversations With Dead People," "Showtime" and ""Storyteller," too. Not enough to make my Top 10 eps, but OK enough to rank S. 7 above S. 6.

[Poppy royal]

1.Faith is my favourite character and I never thought she was truly evil,just damaged because of her abusive childhood and she was probably a minor with no parents or anyone to care about her when she first came to sunnydale.

2. I liked Dawn and Connor and I don't understand why everyone hates them so much.

3. I prefer fred/gunn to fred/wes because I felt gunn and fred had more chemistry.

4. I ship wesley/faith

[Lazlo]

I hated the end of Doppelgangland. I know everyone loves Vamp Willow and I know it would have been hard on the characters to stake her but sending her back home was a complete abdication of moral responsibility - for all they knew they were dooming hundreds of future victims which was apparently okay since they live in an alternate history.

[CletusMusashi]

4. I ship wesley/faith

You mean we'e not supposed to?

[Bitterswete]

2. I liked Dawn and Connor and I don't understand why everyone hates them so much.

 

I didn't hate either of them, but I did like Connor more as a character.

 

I think the writers were trying way too hard to make me like Dawn. It was like, "Isn't she so adorable, and such a spaz, but in a cute way. And, look, everyone else loves her so much. Heck, even Spike likes her."

 

With Connor, it was more like they just presented him to us, and we could feel however we wanted to feel about him. I do think they tried to show why he was the way he was. But it didn't feel like they were trying to give him the woobie treatment to make me love him. It was more like, "There are definite reasons why he's a little psycho. But you're still going to want to smack him a lot of the time."

 

Plus, with Dawn, I sometimes had a hard time with the suspension of disbelief thing. Like, when she was grieving for Joyce, a part of me would be thinking, "Technically, she only knew the woman a few months, and Dawn's emotions are based on fake memories of things that never happened," which would throw me right out of the scene. Then I'd have to remind myself (again) that, whatever the circumstances, Dawn's emotions were real to her. But, by then, I'd already been thrown out of things too much to feel the emotional impact the scene was supposed to.

 

I know everyone loves Vamp Willow

 

I didn't love Vamp Willow. I didn't despise her or anything, but I didn't think she was all that awesome. She was kind of entertaining, and it was interesting seeing a version of Willow that was so different from the one we knew. But I never found myself wishing she would show up in another episode or anything. And I found the other characters' reactions to her more interesting than Vamp Willow herself. 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Bitterswete

[saki]

I'm not a massive Vamp Willow fan either - I enjoyed watching Doppelgangland the first time but it's not an episode that I particularly enjoy rewatching.

 

More obscure episodes that I enjoy rewatching:

When She Was Bad - mostly because I really enjoy Bitchy!Buffy in it. "I'm sorry, is that an offensive term, should I have said Undead American?"

Beer Bad - because I love cave!slayer.  I laugh every time I see Buffy pointing at the TV "tiny little people"

The Puppet Show - again, I find it really funny.  I love the bit where Willow asks for the back story on Buffy's fear of dummies.  "I saw a dummy.  It gave me the wig.  There really wasn't a story there"

What's my line?  Parts 1 and 2.  I really enjoy Kendra and Buffy's dynamic with her.  I also really like the scene on the ice rink where Buffy and Angel's romantic date is interrupted by the assassin.  And the bad lamp

[Bitterswete]

I have always liked Dawn and never understood the intense hate directed at her. I felt like she really brought something new to the table - this sense of family and the wonderful sisterly bond between her and Buffy.

 

I enjoyed their humorous sisterly moments. But when they had more serious ones, based on the bond sisters develop over the years, my brain would again remind me that Dawn hadn't actually been around that long, so a lot of their bond was based on stuff that never happened. Then I'd remind myself that, even if their memories weren't real, their feelings were. But, thanks to this mental debate, I wasn't "in the scene" anymore.

 

But, somehow I could buy the humorous stuff, like Buffy being the over-protective big sister, or Dawn being the bratty little sister.

[Jack Shaftoe]

In my opinion both Connor and Dawn were bad ideas with bad execution to boot. The good thing about Connor is that he didn't need to be in every episode the way Dawn was, plus he was (technically, if not mentally) an adult, so other characters were allowed to beat him up from time to time (my favourite Faith moment ever is when she kicked the crap out of Connor).

 

But the whole plot with Holtz, a human with no superpowers whatsoever, managing to raise a baby in supposedly the worst hell dimension was too stupid for words. It was even less plausible than the monks of mindfuck deciding Buffy would have a shot against Glory and turning the Key into her sister. I didn't like the fake memories and everybody in the Scooby gang (plus Joyce) being completely and utterly okay with them. Plus, Dawn'a appearance was basically the death blow for the Buffy-Willow friendship since Dawn (and, excuse me while I vomit, Spike) got the lion's share of emotional moments with Buffy. So basically, Dawn herself was less annoying than most other main characters in S5-7 (not that this is anything to write home about) but the way she was inserted in the show was all kinds of wrong. And don't get me started on Buffy's (thankfully, short-lived) willingness to doom the whole universe just so Dawn could live a few minutes longer.

[Bitterswete]

In my opinion both Connor and Dawn were bad ideas with bad execution to boot.

 

I'm actually fine with something on a show not totally making sense as long as I enjoy the story that comes out of it. For example, Angel's curse made no sense. In any way. But some good story came out of it, so I'm willing to handwave how little sense the curse made.

 

I can think of a lot of stories on a lot of shows that I liked even though some aspect of them made no sense or were just poorly done.

 

As for Connor and Dawn, I don't think they were bad ideas. Mostly because I've come across plenty of stories that sounded kind of stupid before I saw/read them, and a lot of them turned out to be pretty good. So I'm all for writers trying things that are kind of out there, even if they don't totally work.

 

My problems with Dawn weren't about some stuff not making sense. They're about how the character was written a lot of the time, and how the writers didn't seem to really know what to do with her after a while.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Cobalt Stargazer]

In my opinion both Connor and Dawn were bad ideas with bad execution to boot. The good thing about Connor is that he didn't need to be in every episode the way Dawn was, plus he was (technically, if not mentally) an adult, so other characters were allowed to beat him up from time to time (my favourite Faith moment ever is when she kicked the crap out of Connor).

 

I'm the opposite, because that was the only time I didn't like Faith. You would think, with her long history of stubborn wilfulness, not to mention occasional bouts of homicidal behavior, that she would be sympathetic to Connor, who was more fucked-up than she could have ever dreamed of being. But that might have meant that Captain Forehead was not actually the center of everyone's frigging universe. Blech.

[Bitterswete]

(my favourite Faith moment ever is when she kicked the crap out of Connor).

 

I'm the opposite, because that was the only time I didn't like Faith. You would think, with her long history of stubborn wilfulness, not to mention occasional bouts of homicidal behavior, that she would be sympathetic to Connor, who was more fucked-up than she could have ever dreamed of being.

 

The moment didn't make me hate Faith, but it did seem kind of pointless. It would be different if it had lead to something, like Faith seeing herself in Connor and then trying to help him. But, as it was, it was just, "Faith puts Connor in his place. And..."

 

I guess it was satisfying to people who just liked seeing Connor put in his place, no matter who did it or why. (And I've felt that way about enough characters to get that.) But, to me, it just seemed like an empty moment that didn't really mean anything.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Cobalt Stargazer]

The moment didn't make me hate Faith, but it did seem kind of pointless. It would be different if it had lead to something, like Faith seeing herself in Connor and then trying to help him. But, as it was, it was just, "Faith puts Connor in his place. And..."

 

I guess it was satisfying to people who just liked seeing Connor put in his place, no matter who did it or why. (And I've felt that way about enough characters to get that.) But, to me, it just seemed like an empty moment that didn't really mean anything.

 

But that's part of my point, that it could have led to something and didn't. Faith could have seen herself in Connor, then decided to help him. Instead, she did exactly the thing I disliked so much about Buffy - rush to Angel's defense without a thought for anything but protecting the big fathead. I guess back when Buffy did it to her, Faith actually thought it was perfectly okay, she was just pretending to resent it because of reasons. Or something

[amensisterfriend]

I hate, hate, HATED Faith on Buffy,but somehow I enjoyed her appearances on the first season of Angel. 

 

Speaking of which, I enjoyed Spike more on Angel than I did on Buffy. And Angel himself, for that matter :) (Unpopularly enough, the first and last seasons of Angel are by far my favorites!) 

 

I agree with those who love S1. 

 

I have a surprising amount of dislike for the much-loved S3 and S5. 

 

I couldn't care less about the (IMO) arrogant, haughty, cold Jenny Calendar, and her death wasn't at all among the most poignant moments of the series for me. 

 

I feel like I'm one of the only BtVS fans who neither loved NOR hated Buffy/Spike. The Xander/Anya pairing annoyed me a lot more.

 

By S5, if not even earlier, I was thinking that both Oz and Tara deserved better than Willow and the inexpressibly annoying actress who played her. 

 

Like a few other people here, I always loved Buffy---even long after I stopped loving most other aspects of the show. That's not to say I think she was a flawless saint who could do no wrong or even that I was always on her side whenever a conflict arose, but I never stopped liking and even semi-admiring her. And I actually thought her depression of S6 was acted and written really well, despite not being especially fun to watch. 

[Bitterswete]

rush to Angel's defense without a thought for anything but protecting the big fathead.

 

I don't have a problem with Faith protecting a defenseless Angel, because she couldn't actually let Connor kill him. But it still could've lead to something. Of all the people on either show, Faith was the perfect one to understand someone being that screwed up, and the badness that could come out of that. But all she did was put him in his place a couple of times (and I was talking about the first time earlier as seeming kind of pointless), and that was it.

 

I hate, hate, HATED Faith on Buffy,but somehow I enjoyed her appearances on the first season of Angel. 

 

Speaking of which, I enjoyed Spike more on Angel than I did on Buffy. And Angel himself, for that matter :) (Unpopularly enough, the first and last seasons of Angel are by far my favorites!)

 

I felt that way about a lot of the characters. Even Willow came across better in one episode in season 4 of Angel than she did in most of season 7 of BtVS.

 

Like a few other people here, I always loved Buffy---even long after I stopped loving most other aspects of the show. That's not to say I think she was a flawless saint who could do no wrong or even that I was always on her side whenever a conflict arose, but I never stopped liking and even semi-admiring her.

 

I really liked and admired Buffy in earlier seasons but, by the end of the show, she seemed like a burnt out shell of her former self to me, and it was hard to find much to admire about her. Now I've seen characters go through jackass periods where I wanted to smack them for one thing or another, but I was still a fan of the character. But something about the way BtVS did it with Buffy just didn't work.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Bitterswete

[cheezwhiz346]

Not sure how much of a UO this is, but I really didn't like Spike's 'that's what conquering nations do' speech in Pangs. Not because I don't think it's something Spike would've said; it makes total sense in that regard. But because of how the whole argument was set up, with Willow's pov being presented as a total PC straw man argument with no discussion of nuance. One can acknowledge the atrocities perpetuated on groups of people without letting a vengeful spirit kill everyone. I feel like Spike was supposed to be some kind of voice of reason in that scene, and the situation is far more complex than that.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Yes but Jane Espenson doesn't do complexity, only punchlines.

[CinnamonCW]

- I was far more interested in the gang’s story once they left high school. Not saying the latter seasons were always as well-handled and executed, I just don’t find the problems of middle/upper-middle class white kids in California all that meaningful.
 

- The best thing about ‘The Body’ was SMG’s performance. MT, ASH and AB were very good too. NB and AH were heavy-handed and melodramatic which took me right out of the episode. They should have omitted the stupid shirt fiasco and wall-punching scenes and instead stuck solely with EC/Anya’s reaction.
 

- Spike wasn’t exceptional, nor did he go against canon. Harmony, Holden, Drusilla, even Dalton going back to Season Two had and displayed “humanity.” No, Spike didn’t get a soul due to a change of heart over the whole vampire thing and wanting redemption for the lives he’s taken, but he also didn’t do it just to “get” Buffy back. IMO that is a false dichotomy. He clearly felt bad he hurt Buffy and realized after the bathroom scene that she was right their “relationship” was killing her/ a symptom of her self-destruction (remember also the umpteen, “You don’t have a soul!”) and not some epiphany about belonging in the darkness as he thought. So he regained his soul out of remorse for hurting Buffy (and Buffy alone), remorse he had only because he happened to love her. He had no idea what having a soul would actually end up doing to him.
 

- Not only was Spike interesting in every form but I never understood serious (ie, non Buffy/Angel or Angry Xander Fan motivated) claims he took over the show. In 15 years I haven’t seen one argument for it that stood up to scrutiny.
 

- I do however think they did a poor job of handling Buffy and Willow’s story after they went to a dark place. I think they underestimated the audience's need to see the fallout addressed and their lives rebuilt in a satisfying way.

 

- Angel/Angelus was the exceptional one. Without a soul he retained little to no humanity and was especially cruel and calculated which IMO says a lot about Liam and en-soulled Angel. Not that Angel/Liam was responsible for Angelus’s actions, but who he was shaped Angelus. It bothered me how they treated this in the early seasons in order to keep with the teeny-bopper outlook of the world.

 

- I think Angel was a boring, smarmy control-freak. It didn’t help the way they tried to distract from this by creating a martyr of him at every turn. He became a little better on his own show.

 

- Were it not for the heavy-handedness, the crack/magic storyline and Marti Noxon’s decision to punish fans she disagreed with by including the attempted rape/Lifetime interlude, Season Six would have been a spectacular fucking season. Dare I say my favorite?

 

- I don’t ship Buffy with Angel, Riley, or Spike.

 

- Xander embodied too many of the so-called Nice Guy™ qualities for my liking. Though he was funny in a Chandler-esque way.

 

- I sympathized with both Riley and Buffy at the demise of their relationship.

 

- I have no opinion on the fallout after Buffy skipped town then returned re: ‘Dead Man’s Party.’ They were all just kids thinking they knew things about things and I just don’t care and quickly moved on.

 

- I empathized with Buffy in Seasons Five and Six more than any other season. Really these were the only times she was interesting to me.

 

- I loved Tara!

Edited January 14, 2015 by CinnamonCW

[cheezwhiz346]

- Not only was Spike interesting in every form but I never understood serious (ie, non Buffy/Angel or Angry Xander Fan motivated) claims he took over the show. In 15 years I haven’t seen one argument for it that stood up to scrutiny.

 

I think the reason they don't stand up to scrutiny is because (and this is my assumption based on my own reaction) people felt like Spike took over the show, from the 'reasons' not to stake him to the soul in season 7 to his sparkly ubervamp-destroying necklace. It felt a bit like his journey as a character was taking more precedence than say, Xander's or Willow's, especially towards the end. And that doesn't have to necessarily be a problem, assuming you like Spike. The only time I really have a problem with him is s7 (especially the narrative with him/Wood/his gross coat) because I felt like the show championed him when it really shouldn't have. At the same time, that could be said about a lot of characters in season 7, which in my not-terribly-unpopular opinion sucked pretty hard. In all the arguments I've seen for or against Angel or Spike on BtVS, I honestly think it just comes down to personal taste, especially with how the show portrayed the both of them with or without souls, because I feel like those goal posts were moved around quite a bit (going from 'you're not looking at your friend; you're looking at the thing that killed him' to a vampire choosing to go get a soul). etc. etc. etc.

 

I think this is a definite UO: I'm not really a fan of The Zeppo, and I never re-watch it. I like the concept of the episode, and I think there are a lot of ways in which it is executed pretty exceptionally. But I just a) don't like the idea of that claim of extreme character development in one episode (though to be fair it didn't seem to last more than that one episode; Xander's characterization tended to really be 1 step forward, 2 steps back for me), and b) the idea that Xander does all these manly man things (goes on a joy ride, gets in a fight, tries to impress a girl, has sex, doesn't blink over a bomb, etc.) and then he's cool at the end. I mean, to me the stuff he does throughout the episode is no less superficial than his initial thought of being the 'car guy.' I don't think he was any braver in this episode than he's been in the past. It's ephemeral. And I guess in that way the aftermath of the episode proves that, in that Xander doesn't seem too changed/to have a new sense of self/self-confidence after that. IDK, I guess it seemed to me that the episode was trying to get me to see Xander's growth as real, even if no one else saw it, when really what I saw was Xander kind of stumbling into some stuff that made him feel cool, and feeling cool about himself for a brief amount of time thereafter.

[rue721]

I thought Xander was a creep, but I also thought that was the most interesting thing about him. The show should have put more effort/time into his characterization, imo. Some of his worst times, like when he felt like a complete loser when all his friends were going to college and living in the dorms and he was stuck in his horrible parents' basement, or like when he left Anya at the alter, were actually the times I thought he seemed most like an actual person, and therefore maybe even the most likeable. When he was supposed to be the token human fighting the good fight is when I actually got irritated with him.

 

I also liked his and Anya's relationship. Mostly, I liked how Anya did not want to love him (or anyone, really) but couldn't help herself -- and how freaked out she was by that.

[SosaLola]

After reading Gabrielleabelle's Unpopular Opinions I decided I'm gonna list the unpopular opinions I agree with:

 

Unpopular Opinions I Agree With:

 

1) I think Buffy didn't think about Spike much at all prior to Crush. He just usually didn't cross her mind. Hence her puzzled, "Huh?" when Dawn tells her that Spike's in love with her.

 

2) Harmony being annoying in no way makes Spike's behavior to her OK.

 

3) Riley wasn't threatened by Buffy's strength, whether that means her physical strength or her strength of character. He admired her for it. (Although admittedly he had some preconceived notions of how male-female interaction was supposed to work, which led him astray occasionally - but only temporarily. It wasn't the reason they broke up.)

 

4) I have no problem with Angel attacking Wes in the hospital after Holtz took Connor. Was it wrong and should he have been stopped? Most definitely. But I can completely understand why a heartbroken parent would react that way against the person who lost him his child, and I don't hold it against Angel.

 

5) I thought Xander's last line about Anya "That's my girl. Always doing the stupid thing" to be filled with pride and love, totally endeering and perfect. I really wish it was his last line in the show.

 

6) I don't think the Core Four was unfairly cliquey or exclusionary to anyone. I thought they were fair to outright generous and welcoming considering their respective circumstances to Cordelia/Oz/Anya/Angel/Riley/Spike/Dawn/Tara/Andrew/Jonathan. The only characters that really have a leg to stand on to complain about the Core Four excluding them or not treating them with the respect that they deserve was S3 Wesley and post-Innocence Jenny. And Faith had a legitimate complaint on Giles not engaging her enough.

 

7) I honestly don't find any of the main-cast characters on BtVS (and to a lesser extent AtS) ever unforgivable, you know? I always understand where they are coming from, and most of their actions seem a believable mixture of selfish, selfless, insight and delusion. I always feel a bit wishy washy as a result, but when I get into a character's POV it's really easy to understand why they do what they do. Same goes for most of the recurrings.

 

8) Anya's trying to kill Xander -- and, more importantly, trying to get *his friends*, including multiply traumatized *Dawn*, to wish him a horrible end -- is incredibly terrible and pretty heavy evidence she hadn't actually learned the value of human life or become a moral thinker. I sympathize with her while she does it, because she's hurt and retreating to an old set of ethics in which all men are evil and punishable, but it's in no way close to okay.

 

9) At least into season four, Buffy still thinks of herself as somewhat cooler than Xander and Willow, and I don't think she outgrows that particular privilege for a long while (if ever). c.f. Homecoming, which only works if Buffy believes on some level that she *could* become the most popular kid in school. She does have an inferiority complex and thinks she's worse than her friends in some ways -- but there is a sense of superiority which is not all about slaying.

 

10) I think Joyce was a very flawed parent in many ways, but I think she was in a difficult situation and tried very hard: following a divorce, she left her whole life behind after her daughter burned down a school gym apparently for no reason. Her daughter continued to get in trouble, and over the first three years in Sunnydale, despite a thriving career she dated exactly once (and he turned out to be a killer) and made one friend (who became a zombie who needed to be put down by her daughter). The only other thing even remotely close to a human connection she had was Giles. She dealt badly with Buffy's coming out as a slayer, and took her anger at herself out on Buffy when she returned. But even as she resents the fact that her daughter's life expectancy is being cut in half, she began to be supportive of Buffy's slayer life -- going as far as to recognize, even more than Buffy did, the loneliness that her comrade in arms Faith would feel, and the connection the two could have. When Buffy left for college, she never pressured her to spend time with her. She makes a lot of very bad decisions, and I think she subconsciously holds Buffy as being partly reponsible for the total collapse of her social sphere, both before moving to Sunnydale and once *in* Sunnydale (which was really more the result of the Hellmouth than Buffy); but considering the pressure she was under I have a lot of sympathy for her.

[Fat Elvis 007]

I think this one is going to be very unpopular : I didn't mind the fluke. Of course I don't like that Oz and Cordelia got hurt, but Xander and Willow were teenagers who were both brand new to dating, so I found their behavior realistic and believable. I didn't like the aftermath of it, as the two never seemed as close afterward, but the Fluke storyline itself I actually find pretty well done.

[joelene]

So you don't think you're completely alone, I didn't mind it either. And I liked the aftermath in regards to Xander/Cordelia and Willow/Oz. The only bad thing for me was less screen time for Cordelia.

I also loved Anya. Do I think they could have handled her better, given her more depth and stayed consistent with her? Hell yes. I still loved her whenever she was on screen.

Edited January 27, 2015 by joelene

[AndySmith]

I loath "Once More, With Feeling".

 

I also find both "The Body" and "Hush" to be extremely overrated. WhiIe I do like "The Body", I do feel those 3 episodes are mostly shameless Emmy baiting more than anything else.

Edited February 9, 2015 by AndySmith

[Bitterswete]

- I was far more interested in the gang’s story once they left high school. Not saying the latter seasons were always as well-handled and executed, I just don’t find the problems of middle/upper-middle class white kids in California all that meaningful.

 

And, to me, the writers totally didn't know what to do with the gang after they left high school, which was a big problem. I can like a story set anywhere if it's interesting enough. I can be interested in a story set almost anywhere depending on how it's written. And I could've been interested in some of the "life stuff" the writers gave the gang after graduation if it had been handled better. A lot of it just wasn't, so it mostly fell flat.

 

- Xander embodied too many of the so-called Nice Guy™ qualities for my liking.

 

Responding in the Xander thread.

[CletusMusashi]

I agree about "The Body." It could have been effective, if I'd known it was "real," but with Dawn appearing shortly after SuperJonathon and the Dracula castle, I simply assumed that everything I was watching was an alternate universe, and that soon things would revert to the actual show. Even now if I rewatch it, a big part of my brain just sits there defensively grumbling "Well, how the fuck was I supposed to know? What, did everybody else get a magic decoder ring or something?"

[amensisterfriend]

I enjoy S6 a lot more than S5...and more than S3. I'll show myself the door!

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

And, to me, the writers totally didn't know what to do with the gang after they left high school, which was a big problem.

 

I agree. They tried to portray the college experience, didn't do it too well, then clearly got bored of it and we never even learned what Willow was actually studying. Then they had the great idea to have Buffy undergo a midlife crisis at the ripe old age of 20. Surprising to no one, it wasn't the best idea Joss ever had...

[amensisterfriend]

I kind of love the episode Him. Not just by lowered later seasons standards, but in general. 

 

In fact, I'm enjoying S7 this time around more than ever before. I can't even begin to justify why, so I'll just show myself the door :) 

[joelene]

I love Him as well. The last act is most hilarious but I think it's a lot of fun throughout. I think season 7 started out kinda great, but they mostly lost me after Conversations with Dead People.

And hey, good on you for enjoying it! :) I wish I could do that.

Edited March 4, 2015 by joelene

[amensisterfriend]

And hey, good on you for enjoying it! :) I wish I could do that.

 

Heh---well, genuinely liking even, say, a full third or so of the season puts it above S5 and S6 for me---and, unpopularly enough, probably even S3---so keep in mind that my standards are just comfortably low! I'm glad someone else is a Him lover :) 

Edited March 4, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

...I totally get why almost no one feels S1 is objectively the "best" season, but the more I revisit the series lately, the more I hold the UO that it's the season to which I'm most emotionally attached and most frequently psyched to rewatch. It's just such energizing, empowering, mood-lifting fun for me. I never love the Scoobies and their relationships more than I do in this season. It's the one season during which I truly love and relate to Willow and where Alyson Hannigan's acting totally works for me :) I prefer Buffy/Angel here before they get so weighed down with the soggy angst of subsequent seasons. I love the gleefully, unapologetically cheesy humor and how much fun there is to counterbalance the darker drama. I love Buffy's 'look' here (she's neither too faux-blond nor too skinny!) I love the balance between the monsters of the week (I've always held the UO of loving standalone episodes more than arc episodes overall!) and the ongoing Master storyline. I also enjoy the Master and his "fruit punch mouth" far more with subsequent viewings. I even love Teacher's Pet and I Robot, You Jane! At least I'm in the right thread to make these sort of confessions :) 

[cheezwhiz346]

...I totally get why almost no one feels S1 is objectively the "best" season, but the more I revisit the series lately, the more I hold the UO that it's the season to which I'm most emotionally attached and most frequently psyched to rewatch. It's just such energizing, empowering, mood-lifting fun for me. I never love the Scoobies and their relationships more than I do in this season. It's the one season during which I truly love and relate to Willow and where Alyson Hannigan's acting totally works for me :) I prefer Buffy/Angel here before they get so weighed down with the soggy angst of subsequent seasons. I love the gleefully, unapologetically cheesy humor and how much fun there is to counterbalance the darker drama. I love Buffy's 'look' here (she's neither too faux-blond nor too skinny!) I love the balance between the monsters of the week (I've always held the UO of loving standalone episodes more than arc episodes overall!) and the ongoing Master storyline. I also enjoy the Master and his "fruit punch mouth" far more with subsequent viewings. I even love Teacher's Pet and I Robot, You Jane! At least I'm in the right thread to make these sort of confessions :) 

Re: season 1- while season 2 will forever be my favorite because of how unbelievably emotionally invested I was in that season when it first aired, season 1 is a close second, for all the reasons you mention. I think it might be the season when I like the Buffy character the most, as well; not that I dislike her in other seasons, but just how warm and nice she is when getting to know Willow and Xander and Giles and the four of them becoming the core scoobies. I love all of the eps within as well (and IR, YJ has a great example of why I like Buffy so much then- when Willow says 'Malcolm said you wouldn't understand,' Buffy simply says, 'Malcolm's right,' in this totally calm manner, while still managing to convey to Willow that she is on her side). But anyway, yes, I love the general more upbeat, campy nature of the whole thing, and even though I'm glad for most of the directions the show went in after that, I still love season 1 above most other seasons.

Edited March 13, 2015 by damngoodcoffee

[amensisterfriend]

while season 2 will forever be my favorite because of how unbelievably emotionally invested I was in that season when it first aired

 

I totally hear you. I don't think I've ever loved any season of any show with the ardent, fangirly passion that I loved Buffy's S2 when it aired. Parts are just a little too angsty for me to want to rewatch with as much frequency now, and I don't love Oz/Willow, Cordy/Xander or even (unpopularly!) Buffy/Angel as much as I used to. A couple of things about S2 that really resonated with me when I was younger and a lot closer to my own high school years don't work quite as well for me now. (Interestingly, this is more of an issue with S2 and S3 than S1 for me.) More importantly, I find myself irrationally bugged by Buffy's S2 hairstyle. ;) 

 

 

 

season 1 is a close second, for all the reasons you mention. I think it might be the season when I like the Buffy character the most,

 

Same here. I think it may be the season where I love ALL of the Core Four the most :) 

 

 

But anyway, yes, I love the general more upbeat, campy nature of the whole thing

 

Fun is such a sadly underrated quality of most TV shows, isn't it?! And while it certainly wasn't all sweetness and light---for starters, Buffy freaking DIES in the finale, for heaven's sake, however temporarily---there was just a more consistent, infectious enthusiasm, joy and hope through most of S1 that I found myself really missing in subsequent seasons. 

 

Here's another one: If the powers that be had to experiment with a romantic relationship among the Xander/Buffy/Willow trio, I'd have vastly preferred Buffy/Xander to Willow/Xander. In fact, I think I would have enjoyed that for at least part of S4 in lieu of Buffy/Riley and Xander/Anya, and it would have made a strange sort of sense to me.

 

(*whispers*) While I never 'shipped them while the show aired and am fairly glad they didn't go there, there's a big part of me that would rather see Buffy with Xander as an 'endgame' than either Angel or Spike. Which relates to my very UO about always loving both Xander and Buffy despite their myriad flaws! 

 

I'm always surprised all over again by how relatively little I enjoy S3 and especially S5, especially as both seasons are so popular with most fans I know.

 

Oh, and one more random UO---and probably a not very surprising one given that you guys already know I have fairly weird taste in episodes! I think Lie to Me is, like the Body and Band Candy and probably a few more that aren't leaping to mind, an overrated episode. I definitely LIKE it, but it just never leaps out to me as any more wonderful than most of S1-S2. I so often hear it referred to as the episode when BtVS allegedly became a great/better/deeper etc. show, but there are plenty of S1-S2 episodes which came before it that I love even more. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

...I've been marathoning (I'm pretending that's a real verb!) S4 all day and have some resulting UOs:

 

1. Cordelia was part of some of my favorite scenes of those first few seasons and I like the actress, but by this point in the series I was glad she's gone. 

 

2. The arc of this season is kind of a mess, but as others have said with a lot more insight and eloquence than I could have, I thought many of the basic themes and ideas behind it were really interesting. And I like many of the standalones so much that this is still easily one pf my 2-3 favorite seasons of the series despite its problems. However...

 

3. ...much to my own surprise, I seem to have fallen out of love with the very popular Something Blue. Maybe the Buffy/Spike jokes aren't as funny now that we know what happens in reality not too far in the future, or maybe it's just that Willow/AH really, really irks me in this one. Breakups are the worst, and lord knows I've been known to handle them about as badly as Willow (thankfully I don't have any magical powers, so the damage I can do is minimal!), but I just find her so frustrating in that episode. For quite a bit of this season, in fact. 

 

4. I just don't see any sexual/romantic chemistry between Tara and Willow no matter how much I really, really want to. 

 

5. Anya is more amusing and less annoying this season than I had recalled! Maybe it's actually S5 when I start to hate her...?! 

 

6. On the other hand, Riley is even duller and less entertaining than I had recalled, and somehow his chemistry with Buffy is even closer to nonexistent than I had expected. I really wish she had stayed single throughout this season...or, as confessed above, had some sort of something with Xander. 

 

7. I'm among those who wishes Spike had been staked somewhere around the beginning of S5, but I have to admit that I really enjoy S4 Spike for the most part---maybe even as much as I do S2 Spike, albeit in a different way.

 

8. I understand the complaints about Xander being relatively marginalized this season, but I actually think it was a really good season for his character and found him more lovable and root worthy here than in any season since S1.

 

9. For all the talk both among fans and even in the actual scripts about just how far the Core Four drifted apart this season, I actually didn't think there was THAT much tension and angst or even major distance in their friendships for the majority of the season (Yoko Factor aside, of course!), and I actually like their dynamic here a lot more than I do in the subsequent seasons.

 

10. I used to be a huge Angel/Buffy fan, so I'm surprised by just how relieved I am to see so little Angel/Bangel here.

 

11. I didn't particularly miss Oz at all. I'm pretty sure I would have been more than fine if he and Willow had never reconciled after her 'tryst' with Xander in S3.   

 

12. Faith's appearance in Who Are You is the most I enjoy Faith in the entire series, probably due in no small part to the fact that ED is playing Buffy instead :) 

Edited March 14, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Lazlo]

Having recently rewatched the entire series I have some more thoughts.

 

- 'Hush' is a very well made episode on a technical level and the Gentlemen are impressive designs but it is emotionally quite hollow and not nearly as effective once the gimmick wears off. An overrated episode and not even in my top picks for Season Four. 'Restless' is much deeper, funnier and, excuse the play on words, has a lot more to say.

 

- Faith was more interesting in Season Four and Season Seven than she was in Season Three. Whether evil but falling apart or outright redemptive I find her more engaging than the simplistic character she was in late Season Three.

 

- I agree with most people about most the Potentials but Amanda was fun and likable and I was seriously upset at her death.

 

- Glory was a lot of fun even if she wasn't always used perfectly. Claire Kramer was clearly having a blast chewing the scenery.

 

- I like Cordelia but I don't think the show suffered too much after she left; even in Season Three the writers were obviously struggling what to do with her. I also think that Charisma Carpenter was probably one of the weaker members of the cast (and yes I liked her on Angel but I still think she was one of the weaker performers there too.)

 

- The Tara/Willow relationship had some serious problematic elements that tend to be glossed over, and in a lot of ways Tara outgrew Willow. Even without the magical addiction plot I think they were better off apart.

[cheezwhiz346]

Having recently rewatched the entire series I have some more thoughts.

 

- 'Hush' is a very well made episode on a technical level and the Gentlemen are impressive designs but it is emotionally quite hollow and not nearly as effective once the gimmick wears off. An overrated episode and not even in my top picks for Season Four. 'Restless' is much deeper, funnier and, excuse the play on words, has a lot more to say.

 

- The Tara/Willow relationship had some serious problematic elements that tend to be glossed over, and in a lot of ways Tara outgrew Willow. Even without the magical addiction plot I think they were better off apart.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with 'Hush.' Though I still adore it, Restless is the one I can rewatch more and more and notice more things that were put in there and different avenues and character insights, while Hush is funny and clever but gets less so the more I see it, simply because it doesn't go that deep.

 

And yeah, I think I agree about Willow/Tara. I'm pretty ambivalent about their relationship in general; Tara in season 4 almost seemed like someone Willow conjured up from her mind after all the hurt with Oz (I'm particularly thinking of that one scene where she says her time with Tara is something that's just 'hers'). Not that I disliked Tara, per say. There's just an ambivalence.

[amensisterfriend]

The Tara/Willow relationship had some serious problematic elements that tend to be glossed over, and in a lot of ways Tara outgrew Willow. Even without the magical addiction plot I think they were better off apart.

 

And yeah, I think I agree about Willow/Tara. I'm pretty ambivalent about their relationship in general;

 

Same here...then again, I'm not sure ANY of the romantic BtVS relationships were healthy and happy! 

 

After watching more S3 episodes (I'm doing a rewatch in the most random and nonsensical, 'whatever I feel like at that particular moment' order ever!), a few more UOs: 

 

1. As far as "normal", age-appropriate guys go, I think I would have found Scott Hope a more likable and endearing match for Buffy than Riley. 

 

2. I enjoy the VampWillow of Wish and Doppelgangland far more than standard Willow, with her cringe-inducingly cutesy preciousness and exaggeratedly wide-eyed "who, you mean little old me?!" mannerisms and her cooing and exaggeratedly stammering, breathy line deliveries.  In S1, when she was so naive and young and at her most socially awkward and insecure, Willow/AH's affected mannerisms seemed to fit, but by S3 they were incredibly aggravating---IMUO, that is :) And a big part of me wishes Oz hadn't forgiven her for the tryst with Xander.

 

3. I'm liking a lot of S3 more than I had remembered (especially when I fast forward through the early Xander/Willow scenes!), but I still find the much loved Band Candy kind of a one-note, repetitive and generally overrated episode 

 

4. Maybe it's because I'm older and less tolerant of meanness than I used to be, but Cordelia exhausts and annoys me at least as much as she delights and entertains me. I totally get her fierce anger at Xander after learning about him and Willow, but I'm speaking generally about her time on the show. She used to be among my very favorites, and now I often find myself wishing people would tell her to shut the f*ck up. And I'd actually have been fine with her and Xander never getting together at all. 

 

5. I loved S3 Anya. Did she suffer some sort of traumatic head injury between S3 and her reappearance in S4? ;) (To be fair, I enjoyed her more in S4 than I'd remembered as well, but she's quite different!) 

 

6. I wish Gwendolyn Post had lived long enough to appear in a few more episodes. For some reason she was one of my favorite one-shot villains of the whole series. 

 

7. Wow, Graduation Day might be the series' most amazing episodes IMO...why do I never see them listed on critics' 'best of Buffy' lists?! 

 

 8. I like and enjoy Oz, but the unpopular part is that he borders on 'too perfect' for me. 

[Lazlo]

For the record I liked Tara the character, particularly in Season Six. I actually found her a lot more likable than Willow.

 

I think my issue with the Willow/Tara romance was that while I always believe Willow loved Tara I never got the impression Willow respected her as a person, if that makes sense. I'm not just talking about Season Six either where Willow really stepped over the line; there were shades of it in Season Five (like in 'Forever' where Willow gave Dawn that spellbook behind Tara's back.) That's why I thought breaking up with Willow did a world of good for Tara; she became her own woman, able to give some much needed advice to Buffy or playfully mock Spike. To be fair I'm not sure it was great for Willow either to be in a relationship with someone who almost literally worshipped her. I'm as upset as anyone that she was killed off but honestly, I'd have preferred her just becoming friends with Willow.

 

Of course as amensisterfriend pointed out it wasn't as if anyone else was in a perfect relationship either!

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

That's why I thought breaking up with Willow did a world of good for Tara; she became her own woman, able to give some much needed advice to Buffy or playfully mock Spike. To be fair I'm not sure it was great for Willow either to be in a relationship with someone who almost literally worshipped her.

 

I don't agree that Tara worshipped Willow. She seemed to have no problem disagreeing with Willow when the occasion called for it. For instance Family, Tough Love, Forever, All The Way, telling Willow "no more teleportation spells" in Crush. Getting a cat was Tara's idea, even though Willow said she was more of a dog person. Tara tried to convince Willow to not automatically believe Spike's claims about Buffy, Xander and Giles in The Yoko Factor. She also sulked a little about being Willows' "dirty little secret" in Who Are You. In Intervention Willow tries to conform to what she thinks Tara's opinion of Spuffy is, rather than vice versa (by the way, Tara's reaction to that is awesome - Are you kidding? She is nuts!"). And then when Willow realizes Tara doesn't actually approve of Spuffy, she immediately changes her tune to follow Tara's lead once again.

 

Personally I think the way Tara treated Willow was a very good basis for a healthy relationship, with the possible exception of forgiving the mind-wipes relatively quickly.

 

 

I loved S3 Anya. Did she suffer some sort of traumatic head injury between S3 and her reappearance in S4?

 

Actually Anya's descent into wacky cluelessness about anything human happened between Doppelgangland and The Prom. But it is jarring, indeed. One episode she is a crafty manipulator, the next she can't say a convincing lie to save her life and doesn't understand how dating works.

 

 

I love Buffy's 'look' here (she's neither too faux-blond nor too skinny!)

 

Plus, she wears short skirts every other episode in S1. A fashion choice much appreciated by me.

[Bitterswete]

5. I loved S3 Anya. Did she suffer some sort of traumatic head injury between S3 and her reappearance in S4? ;) (To be fair, I enjoyed her more in S4 than I'd remembered as well, but she's quite different!)

 

Actually Anya's descent into wacky cluelessness about anything human happened between Doppelgangland and The Prom. But it is jarring, indeed. One episode she is a crafty manipulator, the next she can't say a convincing lie to save her life and doesn't understand how dating works.

 

I'm actually fine with characters being inconsistent at the start. I figure the writers are feeling things out, and trying to decide where they want to go with the character. So if the character evolves in ways that are different than how they were in their first few episodes, I'm willing to handwave the early stuff.

 

The problem was that, after they decided to go the "clueless about all things human" route with her, they kept introducing things that made her utter cluelessness harder and harder to buy. Like the fact that she was born human, and lived as a human into adulthood (was engaged and everything) before she became a demon. And rather than spending most of her time in some hell dimension, and only popping into this dimension to grant wishes, she actually spent a great deal of time interacting with humans in her 1000 years as a demon, so her total ignorance about how the human world works made no sense.

 

And after living for years as a human, she was still acting clueless about most things, and hadn't picked up even basic stuff like "when I blurt out the details of my sex life in public, people get uncomfortable and give me funny looks, so maybe I shouldn't do that anymore."

 

Still, if I ignored my issues with the character, she did manage to make me laugh a lot of the time.

[amensisterfriend]

Heh---so true about Anya. Did TPTB ever attempt to explain that?!

Another UO: I love the dream scenes in Graduation Day more than the ones in Restless. I may even love the ones in Nightmare more than the ones in Restless.

[CletusMusashi]

Here's a very unpopular one. I actually liked the scene where Dawn screams "Get out, get out, GET OUT!" Oh, it didn't particularly make me like Dawn, but it was good acting. I thought that Michelle was doing exactly what the character and situation called for, and I respected her for going there.

[ElizaD]

(*whispers*) While I never 'shipped them while the show aired and am fairly glad they didn't go there, there's a big part of me that would rather see Buffy with Xander as an 'endgame' than either Angel or Spike. Which relates to my very UO about always loving both Xander and Buffy despite their myriad flaws!

 

To me, the beginning of S7 felt like the happiest and most content Buffy had been since S5 started. The family vibe of Buffy/Xander/Dawn was surprisingly enjoyable even though I don't ship B/X and belong in the Dawn haters club - happy Buffy was such a relief after all the misery. But then the gang got back together and Buffy became worse than ever. I really think 7x01 would have been a good canon ending for the show: Willow is off with Giles and has plenty of time deal with and learn from her problems, Spike and Anya aren't forced to be part of the gang when it's no longer credible, Buffy finds a job, Xander has gained confidence from doing his job well, Dawn has a chance to become more mature. Even though the characters were apart physically, their relationships hadn't yet deteriorated to the point where they no longer seemed to like each other. I could believe in the possibility of a happy post-canon reunion, but the actual season 7 finale left me feeling the characters needed to get the hell away from each other now that they were free of Sunnydale.

 

I think my issue with the Willow/Tara romance was that while I always believe Willow loved Tara I never got the impression Willow respected her as a person, if that makes sense.

 

This is why I ended up liking Tara more than Willow: in the season of Scooby misery, Tara was trying to be the adult, showing respect and understanding but also making it clear when she thought Willow had crossed the line.

[Moo]

Unpopular opinions... I have a few.

 

1) I liked Dawn. I genuinely did. I thought MT was a half decent actress and Dawn never felt shoe-horned in to the Scoobies the way Riley did. 

 

2) Never really cared about Jenny. I thought she was smug and intensely unlikeable for pretty much her whole time on the show. 

 

3) Never bought Giles/Jenny as in love and as a result, his reaction to her murder (the whole suicide mission thing) always felt way OTT. Passion works because of the horrendous way Giles discovers Jenny's body. The shock, the intimacy of it... but not because I bought them as deeply in love. I think they fancied each other and he should have been shocked and saddened that she died. End of. So him going all firestarter never really rang true for me.

 

4) Spuffy made perfect sense to me in S6. For me, it makes perfect sense that two extremely similar, emotionally damaged, violently inclined people coming together in a sexual relationship at the lowest point of their lives would tear each other to pieces.

 

5) I think if Buffy had shown even the slightest romantic interest in Xander in the later seasons, he'd have dropped Anya like a hot potato. 

 

6) I think Spike's origin as William the Bloody Awful Poet was lame as shit lol. It was deeply disappointing that when we finally got a backstory for what had once been the coolest character on the show, with the most acerbic wit, he turned out to be a wet mummy's boy. What were they thinking?

[Bitterswete]

6) I think Spike's origin as William the Bloody Awful Poet was lame as shit lol. It was deeply disappointing that when we finally got a backstory for what had once been the coolest character on the show, with the most acerbic wit, he turned out to be a wet mummy's boy. What were they thinking?

I actually really liked that. A lot of vampires seem to take being turned as their chance to be someone they were afraid to be (or didn't think they had the power to by) before. Angel, Darla and Doppelgangland!Willow all changed their images when they were turned. Even Harmony tried to do it. She just sucked at it. 

 

In Spike's case, he wanted to get as far away from the guy who was picked on and put down by everybody as he could get. And, over time, that persona he adopted became more and more real. (Which is a thing that can actually happen according to the experts on this stuff.)

 

I've actually read some things about what people thought Human!Spike was going to be like (a lower-class street punk seemed to be the popular theory). And I don't think that would've been nearly as interesting. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by Bitterswete

[amensisterfriend]

) Never really cared about Jenny. I thought she was smug and intensely unlikeable for pretty much her whole time on the show.

3) Never bought Giles/Jenny as in love and as a result, his reaction to her murder (the whole suicide mission thing) always felt way OTT

 

Table for two, please! :) I couldn't agree more.

 

ETA: I liked at least half of S6 and a third of S7 much, much more than I liked ANY of S5. I'm indifferent to worse than indifferent on all of S5. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[joelene]

I love Andrew and never really cared that he killed Jonathan.

[amensisterfriend]

Massively unpopular opinion alert: I honestly think the first third or so of S7 has become one of my very favorite stretches of the entire series. I'm not claiming it's the "best," but for some reason it just really works for me---I think it's a great blend of the lighter wit that seemed missing from large parts of S5 and S6 with some surprisingly interesting themes, I'm a sucker for the redemption stuff they did/started to do with Willow (who I like more in S7 than at any other point since S2!) and Anya, I like Xander and Anya more here than I had since back in S4, Spike bugs me less (it's all relative!) and entertains me more here than he had since S4, I like the introduction of Wood, I think it's aged better than some of my favorite stretches from earlier on in the series have, and I even enjoy the episode Him way more than can be considered normal :)  And before you quite justifiably call me as crazy as locked-in-the-school-basement-Spike for feeling this way, I'll feebly mention that that first third is mercifully Potential-free! 

 

Re. Tara: I feel like I'm in a fairly small minority who was just kind of indifferent to her. She was a nice addition to the cast for me while she was around, but I didn't miss her when she was gone. And while I get why some weren't crazy about AB's acting, I'm kind of neutral on that as well :) I actually hold the UO that AB sold me a lot more convincingly on being in love with Willow than AH ever did on Willow being in love with or even romantically attracted to Tara. 

Edited August 10, 2015 by amensisterfriend