Ted Bundy: Falling For A Killer - General Discussion

[suomi]

All 5 episodes debut on Amazon Prime on Friday, January 31. 

I've just finished episode 2 and what I find remarkable thus far is the female-centric format. The social constructs of the late 60s and 70s are front and center. In-depth stories about the victims, those who died and those who survived, are front and center. I realized after a few minutes into the first episode that the only voices I was hearing were female voices. Men's voices are heard eventually but they are the minority of what is presented. 

The former girlfriend at the center of this documentary has been shamed from every quarter over the years. This documentary goes a long way in providing pertinent background to the insight that she fell in love with a man who seemed too good to be true but she fell for him anyway - and then that relationship fell apart. He presented as ideal relationship material and I can't see faulting her for being deceived. She stayed too long - but we didn't have the tools and the information then that we have today. The average person knew very little about mental disorders and very little about how often the disordered walk among us. She and her daughter, who of course is now an adult, are well-spoken and present their history in ways that are easy to understand. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:54 PM, suomi said:

The average person knew very little about mental disorders and very little about how often the disordered walk among us. She and her daughter, who of course is now an adult, are well-spoken and present their history in ways that are easy to understand

I don’t understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that Elizabeth has a mental disorder? 
 

I just watched all five episodes and a third of the material could have been edited out. There was a lot of repetition of what was said by Elizabeth in a previous episode-same words. It just seemed part of this was trying to “show” or normalize this monster. The repeated slide show of the same pictures again and again. The ones of him kissing Elizabeth. But I stayed with it and watched.

I really didn’t care about why one of Bundy’s post conviction attorneys decided to become a lawyer. Usually, attorneys who take on death penalty cases on pro bono, believe in the innocence of the client. Polly must have been really...I’ll say naive to believe that about Bundy, considering his convictions and TWO ESCAPES, which allowed him to attack those five women in Florida and kill two. I was thinking how is she not violating attorney-client privilege when she revealed how Bundy told her about one of the bodies. Oh, she stopped practicing right after.

There’s nothing, NOTHING that was shown here that gave me any doubts he was the killer. Seriously, he wasn’t a lawyer, but he proposes to Boone, who accepts and that makes them married?! Every documentary or story I’ve watched about him, shows this clip. Yet no mention of his parents other than the interview with the one brother.

What I found very distracting was how Elizabeth had her neck tilted at a 45 degree angle to the left throughout the entire documentary. 

I remember watching and hearing about Bundy’s final appeal in 1989. I also remember a scene of him bawling like a baby after his last appeal was denied. I didn’t see that here. And why not? They should have shown it. 

And the other clips of other events, not related to Bundy and his trail of murders I found to be unnecessary. 

But the one detective apparently that Elizabeth kept calling was clearly a moron. “We checked him out...he’s not the guy” was just so condescending.

So the only “new” thing I learned was that  Bundy had had a relationship with Elizabeth and her daughter, before he started the string of rapes and murders. That we know of.

[Koalagirl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don’t understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that Elizabeth has a mental disorder? 
 

I just watched all five episodes and a third of the material could have been edited out. There was a lot of repetition of what was said by Elizabeth in a previous episode-same words. It just seemed part of this was trying to “show” or normalize this monster. The repeated slide show of the same pictures again and again. The ones of him kissing Elizabeth. But I stayed with it and watched.

I really didn’t care about why one of Bundy’s post conviction attorneys decided to become a lawyer. Usually, attorneys who take on death penalty cases on pro bono, believe in the innocence of the client. Polly must have been really...I’ll say naive to believe that about Bundy, considering his convictions and TWO ESCAPES, which allowed him to attack those five women in Florida and kill two. I was thinking how is she not violating attorney-client privilege when she revealed how Bundy told her about one of the bodies. Oh, she stopped practicing right after.

There’s nothing, NOTHING that was shown here that gave me any doubts he was the killer. Seriously, he wasn’t a lawyer, but he proposes to Boone, who accepts and that makes them married?! Every documentary or story I’ve watched about him, shows this clip. Yet no mention of his parents other than the interview with the one brother.

What I found very distracting was how Elizabeth had her neck tilted at a 45 degree angle to the left throughout the entire documentary. 

I remember watching and hearing about Bundy’s final appeal in 1989. I also remember a scene of him bawling like a baby after his last appeal was denied. I didn’t see that here. And why not? They should have shown it. 

And the other clips of other events, not related to Bundy and his trail of murders I found to be unnecessary. 

But the one detective apparently that Elizabeth kept calling was clearly a moron. “We checked him out...he’s not the guy” was just so condescending.

So the only “new” thing I learned was that  Bundy had had a relationship with Elizabeth and her daughter, before he started the string of rapes and murders. That we know of.

I watched the 20/20 interview with Elizabeth and her daughter on Friday.  I think she must have some type of physical disability because her head was unwaveringly tilted throughout the entire interview.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Koalagirl said:

I watched the 20/20 interview with Elizabeth and her daughter on Friday.  I think she must have some type of physical disability because her head was unwaveringly tilted throughout the entire interview.  

Thanks for that. I was wondering if something happened--because all the pictures show, even those that were post-Bundy, she looked okay; meaning her head wasn't tilted. I didn't know about the 20/20 interview. Was there anything new in there that wasn't covered in this documentary?

[Koalagirl]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Thanks for that. I was wondering if something happened--because all the pictures show, even those that were post-Bundy, she looked okay; meaning her head wasn't tilted. I didn't know about the 20/20 interview. Was there anything new in there that wasn't covered in this documentary?

I didn’t watch the Amazon documentary, but from what I’ve read in the above comments it seems like the two hour 20/20 show covered pretty much everything.  If you’re interested, the full episode is up on the show’s website. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Koalagirl said:

I didn’t watch the Amazon documentary, but from what I’ve read in the above comments it seems like the two hour 20/20 show covered pretty much everything.  If you’re interested, the full episode is up on the show’s website. 

Oh, if you do watch it, I hope you post your comments! I always like reading your insights on stuff.

[suomi]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don’t understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that Elizabeth has a mental disorder? 

No. I was referring to TB's mental disorder which Elizabeth, many times in many ways over the years, has been faulted for not recognizing - which is the point of this series.

As I said in my OP for most of their 4-year relationship he presented as ideal in terms of who/what she was seeking. Which is what sick fucks like TB do but how was she supposed to know that? She was a single parent looking for a life partner who would be a reliable addition to her family, who could be trusted around her daughter and would treat her and her daughter well. And, he joined the chu-urch so how bad could he be? 

I think presenting the case from a feminist perspective provided additional insight as to how events occurred. He played on/preyed on the fact that females are socialized to be helpful and nurturing, are socialized not to be thought of as bitches for turning down someone who asks for help.

Because of the changes that were happening in society during the second wave of feminism, females of all stripes and especially female university students became easier, more available targets. Exercising freedom and autonomy invited law enforcement to posit that a missing girl was shacked up somewhere, on a bender or busy having an abortion. Having an abortion! That says everything about the prejudice of the LE officer who stated that opinion!

(TB's mistake was disappearing so many women in one area. If he had expanded his operation, so to speak, the odds are that he never would have been caught. But he couldn't resist the thrill of causing wide-spread panic). 

Note that it was an older female who was part of the investigation who said early on that "A good-looking man is doing this." Ergo, he doesn't look dangerous, he doesn't look evil, he flatters us by paying attention to us. Girls are raised on Prince Charming. 

Even the relatively new interstate highway system was noted to have played a role, as one detective noted how easily someone with evil in mind could travel great distances in a relatively short amount of time without drawing attention to their behavior. Yes, there have always been traveling salesmen and truckers and others who covered great distances but they had legitimate reasons for covering hundreds of miles in a day. It is fortunate that TB used a credit card for buying gas as often as he did because the receipts placed him in areas at critical times. 

It was a perfect storm of advancements plus evil. 

There was also the old patriarchal story of males being territorial, with LE jurisdictions refusing to see the advantages of sharing information. (This wasn't new, not in the least - the same thing happened with the Tate-La Bianca cases. One jurisdiction had a gun used in the killings LONG before the pertinent jurisdiction found out about it). 

Elizabeth contacted the police three times IIRC. The first time she was told that the suspect VW was bronze rather than brown. Which was wrong, but her mind was eased. During another contact after she said the name Ted the officer said "Do you mean TB? He's already been eliminated." Again, her mind was eased. ("What is wrong with me, why am I thinking these things?") The third time, I think it was, in addition to her information not being taken seriously the officer asked her why she was calling attention to her boyfriend. From a feminist perspective that equals "blame the female." For something, for anything. Or for no reason. 

A woman in Washington (a sorority house mother?) is shown speaking with a TV reporter after Susan Rancourt's disappearance and she mentions that the young women she knows are angry. The reporter, either incredulously or impatiently, snaps "Why?" The woman answers that the students are angry because some man thinks he has the right to upend their lives but the flavor of the reporter's question (and the LEO's abortion response) is highly inappropriate and reflects unspoken prejudices. (You wanted freedom, you got freedom, don't come crying to us now, you brought this on yourself). 

Initiating disagreements in order to justify spending less time together is "normal" behavior every day of the week when one person in a relationship gets cold feet about taking it to the next level or becoming engaged or getting married. I don't think tolerating that, to a certain degree, indicates that a person is codependent.

But ... pushing her out of the raft into the cold river water (with or without warning) now THAT was a huge red flag. No amount of examining the dynamics of the relationship explains or justifies making excuses for that. I thought she was brave and honest to admit to that incident because it reveals that she was willing to accept a certain level or type of abuse if that's what it took to sustain their relationship. I think she was young for her chronological age and unformed and unaware of her right to demand better from a partner. Is that the definition of codependent? I do not know. 

Because we live in naive, backward Utah, one of TB's very successful hunting grounds, about 20 years ago I made my teenage granddaughter read a TB book and to this day she is scared shitless of a lone male with crutches or an arm in a cast. Or a friendly guy she doesn't know who comes at her from nowhere. Or a boyfriend who activates her hinky meter. Good. 

Anyway, that is some of my perspective after watching the series. I didn't discern that any of the photos or comments normalized TB. What they did illustrate clearly is how very normal sick fucks can appear to be. Every time someone, anyone, realizes that fact something has been accomplished. Nothing could lessen my certainty that he did everything (and more 😞) that he was accused of. 

Cases like this resonate with me because when I was 18 my roommate and I were kidnapped by two guys when we were hitchhiking. We absolutely knew that their intentions were evil and we gamed them and got away unharmed but I have never forgotten how the fear tasted.

Another night when I was in the mood to clean the apartment instead of gallivanting to Laguna the same roommate sold a quarter pound of weed to some folks we later realized were Charles Manson and a few of his minions.

Another night in Laguna I was tiffing with my boyfriend and walked away from our group and realized after awhile that I was sitting on the sand inside of a circle of guys who showed up from nowhere and began taunting me while steadily moving closer. My bf and his brother and another friend came looking for me and they were outnumbered but after some pushing and shoving our side won.

So ...

Factoid: I asked a mod to delete this topic because, after about 24 hours, it hadn't generated any interest. So, whatever the opinions expressed here I do appreciate the responses you posted.  

[suomi]

8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Seriously, he wasn’t a lawyer, but he proposes to Boone, who accepts and that makes them married?! Every documentary or story I’ve watched about him, shows this clip. Yet no mention of his parents other than the interview with the one brother.

I've read about the law behind the validity of "Will you marry me?" in a public, legal setting and never have understood the necessity or the reasoning for it. But it exists, or did at that time. Florida is one strange place.

I think the enabler label was hung on the wrong woman - it never belonged on Elizabeth but definitely belonged on CB. In the end, she knew the truth when he offered further information for more time above ground which, thankfully, he did not get. 

That marrying clip gets my vote for second must useless piece of TB film and first place goes to ... the judge COMPLIMENTING TB after sentencing him to death And Telling Him He Would Have Liked To Have Him Practice Law In His Courtroom. And telling him he Holds No Animosity toward him and to Take Care, Partner. It's hard to believe that the judge retained his job after that  but he did. Florida is one strange place. 

The last episode IIRC mentioned that Susan Rancourt's mother and TB's mother spoke on the phone and there was also a follow-up letter, and there was no animosity in either direction. The episode also played the tape of his mother speaking to a reporter and her voice and her words conveyed that she was heartbroken and ashamed. I've heard that tape before and it's not easy to hear her grief for her firstborn son's victims.

The younger son is gutted and it's obvious from his demeanor and the the fact that he lives in a camper in the backyard that he has issues. I think it showed strength of character that he said he felt no pleasure in looking at photos of camping trips and beach outings and such during happy times with the big half-brother he once idolized. I've never heard, or heard of, a comment from the stepfather or the other half siblings. The identity of his father remains unknown, except to his mother.

There are so many victims here, beyond those who lost their lives. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by suomi

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 hours ago, suomi said:

I was referring to TB's mental disorder which Elizabeth, many times in many ways over the years, has been faulted for not recognizing - which is the point of this series.

Well, here I disagree with everyone who have cited Bundy as having a mental disorder. I think he was just EVIL. Or are the "experts" now pundinting that Evil is also a mental disorder? Fuck that nonsense.

12 hours ago, suomi said:

Anyway, that is some of my perspective after watching the series. I didn't discern that any of the photos or comments normalized TB. What they did illustrate clearly is how very normal sick fucks can appear to be. Every time someone, anyone, realizes that fact something has been accomplished. Nothing could lessen my certainty that he did everything (and more 😞) that he was accused of. 

I realize one of the points of this documentary was to show how he fooled, used, abused Elizabeth and pretty much hid who he was, but the constant, SAME pictures of his macking on her, just grossed me out. Just show other "normal" pictures, why don't you? (You, meaning the fucking producers).

12 hours ago, suomi said:

TB's mistake was disappearing so many women in one area. If he had expanded his operation, so to speak, the odds are that he never would have been caught. But he couldn't resist the thrill of causing wide-spread panic). 

But it wasn't just in one area. We saw, that there were also a string of disappearances, murders in Utah, Oregon, Colorado.

And I agree, so typical of law enforcement agencies being territorial and refusing to work together. If they'd just set aside their testosterone pills, maybe some of these lives could have been saved.

For some reason, I didn't think there were any survivors. So that's something new I learned. Oh, and that Bundy has a daughter out there, somewhere.

11 hours ago, suomi said:

That marrying clip gets my vote for second must useless piece of TB film and first place goes to ... the judge COMPLIMENTING TB after sentencing him to death And Telling Him He Would Have Liked To Have Him Practice Law In His Courtroom. And telling him he Holds No Animosity toward him and to Take Care, Partner. It's hard to believe that the judge retained his job after that  but he did. Florida is one strange place. 

Oh this had me all STABBY and having a RAGE BLACKOUT. 😡😡That asinine judge was talking to him as if he'd just embezzled or something. Oh, you're so bright; you had such a good future! I would have liked to have seen you in my court. But good luck with your DEATH sentence. I actually thought I was going to get a  Law & Order Judge (from Season 1's "Indifference"), telling Bundy he was a cancer on society and he deserved everything he was getting.

But I really wish this show had gotten the clip of Bundy crying like a baby after losing his last appeal. To show him without all that smug and arrogance, that the system WON, and he LOST and was getting his just desserts. 

As to that one former DEA cop, I think? who was describing how Bundy took away that first girl at the Sammamish park--he described, in detail that she really didn't want to go and help him, looked uncomfortable. So why didn't HE get off his ass and stop her, and offer to help Bundy?

I'm also surprised they didn't air clips of interviews with Anne Rule, who also interviewed him.

And they just seemed to gloss over all the bones and bodies they did find, in like a 6 second clip. Now I'm going to have to jump down the wikipedia rabbit hole. I think Sue Rancourt was the only one they didn't find from the number of women and girls they did show?

Bundy was just an evil, sick FUCK.

Edited February 3, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, well this is gross and I wonder why the documentary didn't cover/reveal this:

Quote

 He decapitated approximately 12 of his victims with a hacksaw,[38][260] and kept at least one group of severed heads—probably the four later found on Taylor Mountain (

Rancourt, Parks, Ball and Healy)—in his apartment for a period of time before disposing of them

 

That's according to Robert Keppel's book, who was a former homicide detective, who not only helped with the Bundy investigation, but eww, agreed to let that evil, necrophiliacistic monster help with the Green River Killer!

So, Rancourt was found. But this series said she wasn't, and her mother and sister still think she wasn't found? 

The Wiki rabbit hole also stated this sick FUCK would have sex with the decomposing bodies until they putrefied! A LOT of what Bundy did was left out of this series. But then again, this wasn't so much about the details of his crimes (just a glossing over them), than it was about Elizabeth's story, I guess.

Edited February 3, 2020 by GHScorpiosRule

[Epeolatrix]

From what I have read, the documentary was inspired to take a "larger social issues and context" approach by a previous long-form documentary called "OJ: Made in America". Only instead of Simpson and race, it's Bundy and feminism. Rather than dwell on the killer, the focus is on the women affected by him and about the way his crimes functioned socially almost as acts of terrorism against all girls & young women at the time.

I think they avoided talking about the decapitations and necrophilia because it would again reduce the murdered women to summations of their deaths rather than focusing on their lives. For the survivors, you get enough detail to show you what they overcame, but the emphasis is on their strength and not his brutality, which I really appreciated. (As to Susan Rancourt, her head was recovered but not the rest of her remains; that's why they say she wasn't found.) Also, I don't fault Keppel for accepting Bundy's offer to help with GRK. He had reason to believe he could use the situation to get more info on Bundy's crimes and maybe recover more of the missing women.

[Kelly]

I watched all the episodes, and I agree w what others have said in that a LOT of Bundys behaviors were left out.  
 

I found Elizabeth extremely unlikeable.

[Alice Mudgarden]

On 2/3/2020 at 12:57 AM, suomi said:

That marrying clip gets my vote for second must useless piece of TB film and first place goes to ... the judge COMPLIMENTING TB after sentencing him to death And Telling Him He Would Have Liked To Have Him Practice Law In His Courtroom. And telling him he Holds No Animosity toward him and to Take Care, Partner.

I actually think the clip of the judge showing kindness to Ted was rather pertinent to this doc (as opposed to all the others I've seen it in), given the angle it was taking on men and women.

Here you have a monster who killed dozens of women, many of whom were taken in by the charm he's supposed to have had (I think he seems super creepy, but I also know better), and the judge - having just sentenced this monster to death for heinous, awful things he knows all about - compliments him. In front of, I would assume, the loved ones of victims. It's actively horrifying.

[Calvada]

On 2/2/2020 at 4:55 PM, Koalagirl said:

I watched the 20/20 interview with Elizabeth and her daughter on Friday.  I think she must have some type of physical disability because her head was unwaveringly tilted throughout the entire interview.  

I too wondered about her holding her head that way.  I thought it might be a mannerism she developed over the years, sort of a manifestation of the deferential/submissive personality that she has exhibited her entire life.  But then I wondered if she was partially deaf and this was her way of keeping her good ear to the other person, or if she had suffered a stroke at some point since she seems to speak out of one side of her mouth.  But then the more I saw the daughter, I realized she spoke that way as well.  

Think of how (hopefully!) things would be different now.  Not only law enforcement sharing information, but through social media, greater publicity and earlier recognition that there was a predator targeting colleges and universities.  Also things like technology - the fact that now there would be cameras on campuses plus traffic cameras probably would not have allowed Bundy to operate undetected.  Bundy did take some chances - moving an injured or dead Lynda Healy from her bedroom to his car, speaking to that woman & then abducting the high school girl (probably agitated by the failed abduction of Carol DaRonch earlier that day so not caring that he left a witness), using a credit car for gas purchases which showed him in the areas of several murders, etc.  

It is amazing the close calls some women had.  Such as Lynda Healy's roommate who locked the door leading outside on her way to her room then found it unlocked the next day.  Does that mean Bundy was in the house as she went to her room?  There's a story in Ann Rule's book about one of the residents of the Chi Omega house who was going from her room to the bathroom and back to her room while Bundy was in the house going between two bedrooms, and that while she was in the bathroom the door moved slightly as it did when someone passed by in the hall.  Did she miss him by seconds?   Or the woman who identified Bundy as the person she saw leaving the Chi Omega house - if she had come home 30 seconds earlier would she have encountered him on the stairs or in the hallway?  

[DangerousMinds]

4 hours ago, Calvada said:

I too wondered about her holding her head that way.  I thought it might be a mannerism she developed over the years, sort of a manifestation of the deferential/submissive personality that she has exhibited her entire life.  But then I wondered if she was partially deaf and this was her way of keeping her good ear to the other person, or if she had suffered a stroke at some point since she seems to speak out of one side of her mouth.  But then the more I saw the daughter, I realized she spoke that way as well.  

Think of how (hopefully!) things would be different now.  Not only law enforcement sharing information, but through social media, greater publicity and earlier recognition that there was a predator targeting colleges and universities.  Also things like technology - the fact that now there would be cameras on campuses plus traffic cameras probably would not have allowed Bundy to operate undetected.  Bundy did take some chances - moving an injured or dead Lynda Healy from her bedroom to his car, speaking to that woman & then abducting the high school girl (probably agitated by the failed abduction of Carol DaRonch earlier that day so not caring that he left a witness), using a credit car for gas purchases which showed him in the areas of several murders, etc.  

It is amazing the close calls some women had.  Such as Lynda Healy's roommate who locked the door leading outside on her way to her room then found it unlocked the next day.  Does that mean Bundy was in the house as she went to her room?  There's a story in Ann Rule's book about one of the residents of the Chi Omega house who was going from her room to the bathroom and back to her room while Bundy was in the house going between two bedrooms, and that while she was in the bathroom the door moved slightly as it did when someone passed by in the hall.  Did she miss him by seconds?   Or the woman who identified Bundy as the person she saw leaving the Chi Omega house - if she had come home 30 seconds earlier would she have encountered him on the stairs or in the hallway?  

Another really stupid thing he did - use his real name when trying to abduct girls in the park and being overheard.

[Alice Mudgarden]

16 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Another really stupid thing he did - use his real name when trying to abduct girls in the park and being overheard.

Stupidity brought on by arrogance. The thought to use an alias probably didn't even cross his mind because he thought he was so much smarter than everyone else, which is deliciously ironic.

[Clawdel]

On 1/31/2020 at 8:54 PM, suomi said:

I've just finished episode 2 and what I find remarkable thus far is the female-centric format. The social constructs of the late 60s and 70s are front and center. In-depth stories about the victims, those who died and those who survived, are front and center. I realized after a few minutes into the first episode that the only voices I was hearing were female voices. Men's voices are heard eventually but they are the minority of what is presented. 

I loved this documentary series. It answered a lot of questions I've always had about this case. I knew Ted had a girlfriend with a daughter, but they were a mystery to me. Molly really touched my heart and I'm glad Liz got sober. What really moved me was to hear from the families of the victims, especially George Ann Hawkin's best friend.