Primal Slayer December 12, 2021 Share December 12, 2021 1 hour ago, 4evaQuez said: This season is the closest you can get to a perfect season of television. I truly love the third season of Charmed. The sisters are absolutely beautiful this season, their chemistry is pitch-perfect, great blend of humor and drama. Great mixture of melodrama with a more measured and resigned building of tension. Also, this season really breaks the roles the sisters were assigned. Phoebe and especially Piper are stepping out of Prue's shadow and no longer treating her like a mother figure but like a sister. Prue is also continuing on her own journey of discovering who she is and not who she has to be for her sisters. Lastly, although season 5 gets a lot of flack for moving away from the original premise of the show, you can actually see seeds of this removal in the third season. Loving the recaps. Makes me want to do a rewatch myself though I am holding off until I get the blu rays because I refuse to watch it on Peacock with the new music inserted over the old ones. Season 3 is definitely what Charmed was meant to be tonally and it's a shame it came and went so fast (S3/4).. 2 hours ago, 4evaQuez said: Blinded by the Whitelighter - I have always loved this episode, but it frustrates me so much. I hate when a show has an episode to acknowledge where they have failed a character or a storyline only to end with, "get over it." And this is basically what this episode does. Natalie is right. Leo is an horrendous whitelighter. He's missing important meetings to heal Piper's finger, he's overly emotional to the point that he almost got himself killed, he does very little to help the sisters train and grow their powers, he is a distraction for Piper, and this episode shows that Natalie actually would be a better whitelighter. She's disciplined, she helped craft a plan to defeat Eames, she realizes the importance of having witches, whitelighters, and yes even Elders working together. Everytime I watch this episode, I wonder if the Elders were truly usueless of Leo just never consulted with them in a way that was helpful. Case in point, the elders being correct that the "male witch" was actually a force of evil. I'm also pissed because this episode proves why Piper and Leo shouldn't be together. I love Piper - this season on - but she is whiny, childish, and is often a detriment to the Power of Three during the Prue years. I loved Natalie and found her a breath of fresh whitelighter air. While I always liked Leo, they really should've used this episode to have him step aside as their Whitelighter for remainder of the season and have Natalie step in so Leo can focus on just being Pipers boyfriend when he isnt with his other charges. They could've had Natalie killed off before the end or by Shax and have Leo return full time as their Whitelighter and Pipers significant other. But it was the perfect showcase of why Whitelighters/Witches probably shouldnt shack up if they are a charge of a whitelighter. 2 hours ago, 4evaQuez said: We All Scream for Ice Cream - is another episode that annoys me greatly. Mainly because of Victor Bennett. They recast the role, and the character is nothing like his previous self. It's now Gram's fault that he abandoned his kids. This I don't understand since we learn in THAT 70'S Episode that he's gone from their lives before Phoebe is even born. So Grams wouldn't let you raise your kids without magic even though you and the living Mother would have been the ones to make that decision. The show is also inconsistent on why he left Patty. At one point the show outright says Patty has an affair. Then they say that Patty/Sam happen after Victor leaves, but Sam was putting the moves on Patty before he left. Then they say that Sam stole Patty from Victor. All of this just to try to make Victor seem sympathetic when he is not. Also, what about the fact that as their father, he would have more legal rights regarding custody after Patty died. Also, the sisters' would have their powers stripped by this point so raising them without powers is the only option. Then, in Sympathy for the Demon we see a Piper who has to be about preteen age crying because Victor abandons her after a demon attack. Patty is long dead at this point. I enjoyed this episode lol and the reintroduction of Victor. While the show as fast and loose with retcons, him being Bennett is one that I welcomed. The way I see it, Victor/Patty had an on again/off again relationship with Sam being in there and eventually overlapping. Grams likely did everything in her power to keep Victor away as much as she could but Victor was still a lackluster parent that didnt fight that hard for his kids and eventually just gave up and went on with his life. Not to mention who knows how many mind wipes Grams gave them that could overlap with some Victor/magic situations. But Grams was a great character through and through, a proper prequel series focusing around her would've been great. 2 hours ago, 4evaQuez said: This season also is the beginning of Phoebe just feeling less needed in the trio. Prue all of a sudden is super witch. She is the one who is studying the book. We get more references to her making spells, Piper is shown doing more potions. PreWitched even heavily implies she's the best at potion making - this is confirmed next season. Prue can also randomly do kung fu, and she can use her telekinesis powers to mimic Phoebe's levitation; however, Prue can move more freely and use her telekinesis to give her kicks and punches more power. Prue is also more crafter. Coyote Piper resolution is the type of quick and street wise thinking that Phoebe would have proposed in the earlier two seasons. Phoebe also doesn't get a particularly big moment for her premonitions like prior seasons. The Good, The Bad, and The Cursed literally has her premonition power killing her and Prue and Cole are the ones to save the day. This is the season where Phoebe has regressed in her premonitions since in the last two seasons she was doing a better job having premonitions on command, and we saw her practicing the ability. I always felt there was an interesting story to tell between S2 & 3 where it was just Prue/Phoebe trying to hold things down while Piper is away and they arent able to access her (which begs the questions...how can Leo just leave 2 of his charges for so long) that basically made Prue and Phoebe switch places. Prue goes from learning how to let loose in S2 to becoming extremely paranoid about demons and whats to come and Phoebe goes from being obsessed with being a witch and furthering her powers to putting it on pause to focus on finishing college and becoming side tracked with Cole. Though I have to wonder if Connie was more of a push for Phoebe's premonitions since after she left the writers basically looked at them as useless outside of setting up the monster of the week instead of really developing them like they were in S1&2. Her astral premonitions that lasted all of 1 episode in S5 was such a dope enhancement that could've lead to some really great stories. 2 hours ago, 4evaQuez said: Lastly, watching this season made me mourn what could have been. I actually liked Paige/Rose McGowan from season 4 onward, but I couldn't help but wonder how the show would have evolved with Prue. Although the sisters were stepping out of her shadow, Prue still had the ability to call them on their crap in a way that Piper never did with Phoebe. I don't think Piper did it with Paige either; however, I do think Piper was more okay with being in conflict with Paige than Phoebe. I'll get to that when I get to those seasons. Prue was not afraid to wear her dislike of Cole on her shoulders. She was okay with telling the sisters that they were straying too far from the path as Charmed ones and as sisters. And Prue was a leader in a way that Piper not Paige ever were. I don't think Phoebe ever really stood in the leadership role, especially not for long. Prue became a one woman army, and I do wonder how Piper and Phoebe's powers would have evolved in order to keep up with her. And while I think the acting is still mostly strong after season 3, All Hell Breaks Loose really showed what SD and HMC especially could have brought to this show if given the chance. Anyway, this is already super long. Headed to Season 4 which is actually my second favorite season. Blessed Be. What could've been is always the best/worst thing when it comes to Charmed. I wish I lived in an alternate world where Shannen had stayed and see how things played out. I know she was pushing for the show to be taken more seriously and get darker so I can imagine things such as Phoebe becoming the Evil Queen would likely play out. Less fairytale episodes, The Source probably would've stuck around longer. Since each of them were supposed to get 3 powers since S1 (there's an interview with Shannen in S1 talking about astral projection), I think they probably would've given Phoebe a better active power and dialed down just how strong Pipers molecular combustion was after she got control over it. It definitely wouldnt be strong enough to permanently vanquish a demon. I could see them bringing back Bane as Prues long term love interest giving the sisters a Whitelighter, a demon, and a criminal for husbands. Phoebe would probably move out for a bit and I could see Piper/Leo doing the same and dealing with Prue feeling lonely in the Manor. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7170022
Primal Slayer December 12, 2021 Share December 12, 2021 On 12/1/2021 at 10:24 PM, Pearson80 said: Phoebe is my favorite sister in season 2 due to everything that you wrote in your post. I also loved how she is able to connect mentally with that female demon with her powers. That should have been developed more in the future. I also think that the reason that she is so awesome in this season is because she is Constance's proxy on the show. Constance was the baby sister in real life since she based the series on herself and her older sisters. Constance should have written the show till the end. It is too bad that she did not get to fulfill her vision.. I would have loved to have seen her write long live the queen with Prue being there instead of Paige.. Long live the Queen should have been the centennial episode in season 5. The source could have sought an alliance with Evil Phoebe to not only ensure his survival but also to keep Phoebe from rejoining her sisters. As long as she remains evil, the power of 3 is dead. Evil Phoebe versus Prue would have brought their relationship full circle.. The source was vanquished too soon in season 4, he should have been a constant threat throughout the show in addition to other evil beings that the sisters had to face both human and supernatural.. Prue was haunted by Patty's death the most since she was the oldest and that was part of her characterization since season 1 and it fueled her resentment of her father Victor. Piper and Phoebe should have been haunted by Prue's death like Prue was with Patty's and it always bothered me that they acted like Prue never existed and that Paige was the one that they knew all of their lives.. I think that Prue's second power was good but it should have been called bilocation instead of astral projection and it could have progressed to cloning as she got more powerful. Prue could create 2 other versions of herself to fight evil like she did in season 1 with that spell to multiply her strength. The three Prues would have also been an homage to the power of 3, had she lived.. Phoebes character definitely peaked in S2 and I wish that version of her had stayed around longer or made a triumphant return later. I think it would've been almost better (and weird) if Phoebe had a child before Piper since Piper was all about family. Not to mention The Halliwells having to deal with a child that could be destined for evil would've been interesting and challenge them in new ways. Or some type of adaption of the Dahak storyline from Xena would've been great. Have the kid grow up super fast and just be evil and Phoebe attempting to save her "child" and Prue/Piper having to ultimately vanquish him. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7170034
andromeda331 December 12, 2021 Share December 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said: Loving the recaps. Makes me want to do a rewatch myself though I am holding off until I get the blu rays because I refuse to watch it on Peacock with the new music inserted over the old ones. Season 3 is definitely what Charmed was meant to be tonally and it's a shame it came and went so fast (S3/4).. I loved Natalie and found her a breath of fresh whitelighter air. While I always liked Leo, they really should've used this episode to have him step aside as their Whitelighter for remainder of the season and have Natalie step in so Leo can focus on just being Pipers boyfriend when he isnt with his other charges. They could've had Natalie killed off before the end or by Shax and have Leo return full time as their Whitelighter and Pipers significant other. But it was the perfect showcase of why Whitelighters/Witches probably shouldnt shack up if they are a charge of a whitelighter. That would have been a great idea. It would have given Leo and Piper a chance to date and see where they go. By the end of the season he's ready to become their whitelighter again. Maybe he would actually be a better whitelighter. I liked Leo at the time but after many rewatches he and Piper really don't have anything in common. They don't ever really talk about anything. Piper knows nothing about being a whitelighter or anything. So he tells her nothing about his job? How do they never discuss it? What do they talk together. It feel like they just decided they were in love but didn't show us. My favorite will always be Mark. But they had things in common. They both loved to cook. You could see why they had a crush on each other. Even with Phoebe and Cole you could see they were attracted to each other, we got to see them have fun together. That one date when he's trying to turn the sisters against each other where their laughing at story Phoebe's telling. I'm not saying they should have ended up together. Phoebe should have lost interest when she found out he was the one trying to kill her. But at least I could see why they fell for each other. They didn't really give us anything with Leo. Quote I enjoyed this episode lol and the reintroduction of Victor. While the show as fast and loose with retcons, him being Bennett is one that I welcomed. The way I see it, Victor/Patty had an on again/off again relationship with Sam being in there and eventually overlapping. Grams likely did everything in her power to keep Victor away as much as she could but Victor was still a lackluster parent that didnt fight that hard for his kids and eventually just gave up and went on with his life. Not to mention who knows how many mind wipes Grams gave them that could overlap with some Victor/magic situations. But Grams was a great character through and through, a proper prequel series focusing around her would've been great. I think he did a better job then the first actor. I love Tony Denison but he wasn't the right fit. I agree with you about Victor. I do think Grams did everything in her power to get rid of Victor. But Victor also chose to go. He didn't fight for his kids ever. He didn't fight for Patty ever. He just blames everything on Grams or Sam rather then take any responsibilty for himself. He came and went because he wanted too. He didn't raise the girls because he didn't want too. He didn't even pay any child support for his kids. Not even when Patty was alive. What exactly was his reason for splitting with Patty when she was alive? And not seeing his daughters then? He didn't have Penny as an excuse them. Patty should have kicked him to the curb. I liked Prue's anger towards Victor because he deserved it. Quote I always felt there was an interesting story to tell between S2 & 3 where it was just Prue/Phoebe trying to hold things down while Piper is away and they arent able to access her (which begs the questions...how can Leo just leave 2 of his charges for so long) that basically made Prue and Phoebe switch places. Prue goes from learning how to let loose in S2 to becoming extremely paranoid about demons and whats to come and Phoebe goes from being obsessed with being a witch and furthering her powers to putting it on pause to focus on finishing college and becoming side tracked with Cole. I wish we had gotten that. Prue and Phoebe were an interesting pairing because they were different and didn't get along. I like the Power of Two because we got to see them without Piper there as a buffer. I even like when they switched powers and Prue got to find out what it was like having premontions and Phoebe having active powers. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7170121
Primal Slayer December 12, 2021 Share December 12, 2021 13 minutes ago, andromeda331 said: That would have been a great idea. It would have given Leo and Piper a chance to date and see where they go. By the end of the season he's ready to become their whitelighter again. Maybe he would actually be a better whitelighter. I liked Leo at the time but after many rewatches he and Piper really don't have anything in common. They don't ever really talk about anything. Piper knows nothing about being a whitelighter or anything. So he tells her nothing about his job? How do they never discuss it? What do they talk together. It feel like they just decided they were in love but didn't show us. My favorite will always be Mark. But they had things in common. They both loved to cook. You could see why they had a crush on each other. Even with Phoebe and Cole you could see they were attracted to each other, we got to see them have fun together. That one date when he's trying to turn the sisters against each other where their laughing at story Phoebe's telling. I'm not saying they should have ended up together. Phoebe should have lost interest when she found out he was the one trying to kill her. But at least I could see why they fell for each other. They didn't really give us anything with Leo. I think Piper/Leo not discussing everything that a Whitelighter does was fine. She knows the basics and sure it wouldve made her understand being a Whitelighter better but she didnt fall for Leo because of his job. His general personality and great butt was what attracted her to him initially lol. 15 minutes ago, andromeda331 said: I think he did a better job then the first actor. I love Tony Denison but he wasn't the right fit. I agree with you about Victor. I do think Grams did everything in her power to get rid of Victor. But Victor also chose to go. He didn't fight for his kids ever. He didn't fight for Patty ever. He just blames everything on Grams or Sam rather then take any responsibilty for himself. He came and went because he wanted too. He didn't raise the girls because he didn't want too. He didn't even pay any child support for his kids. Not even when Patty was alive. What exactly was his reason for splitting with Patty when she was alive? And not seeing his daughters then? He didn't have Penny as an excuse them. Patty should have kicked him to the curb. I liked Prue's anger towards Victor because he deserved it. I view Victor/Patty like a modern day Samantha/Darren (Bewitched). He likely wasnt supportive of his children being witches and in harm's way and it was probably a constant argument in their lives. Partnered with them living with Grams and we know that she still actively practiced witchcraft and she/Patty still encountered the occasional warlock/demons even after the girls powers were bound and it just wasnt for him. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7170141
Pearson80 December 12, 2021 Share December 12, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, andromeda331 said: I wish we had gotten that. Prue and Phoebe were an interesting pairing because they were different and didn't get along. I like the Power of Two because we got to see them without Piper there as a buffer. I even like when they switched powers and Prue got to find out what it was like having premontions and Phoebe having active powers. I loved them as a twosome and it would have been interesting to see evil Phoebe going up against Prue with Piper trying to mediate between them. I could definitely see Prue willing to vanquish Phoebe and Piper not willing to go that far, hoping that Phoebe would abandon evil and rejoin them. We definitely should have seen the sisters developed their 3 powers like Constance wanted.. I hated that the sisters never learned to hone their spellcasting abilities after Constance left the show. I loved that Phoebe was such a great spellcaster like grams and her mom. It made sense since she had no active abilities in the first two seasons. The book of shadows also got ignored in the latter seasons since Leo always had the answers to their troubles, I absolutely hated that... I never cared for Leo, I always wanted Piper to fall for a mortal and have her three daughters as an homage to the power of 3. Edited December 12, 2021 by Pearson80 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7170143
Primal Slayer December 12, 2021 Share December 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Pearson80 said: I loved them as a twosome and it would have been interesting to see evil Phoebe going up against Prue with Piper trying to mediate between them. I could definitely see Prue willing to vanquish Phoebe and Piper not willing to go that far, hoping that Phoebe would abandon evil and rejoin them. We definitely should have seen the sisters developed their 3 powers like Constance wanted.. I hated that the sisters never learned to hone their spellcasting abilities after Constance left the show. I loved that Phoebe was such a great spellcaster like grams and her mom. It made sense since she had no active abilities in the first two seasons. The book of shadows got ignored in the latter seasons since Leo always had the answers to their troubles, I absolutely hated that... I could definitely see Evil Phoebe having some type of line about "Now I have the power" "Now I'm the strongest sister" in regards to Prue. I could also see Prue trying to get through to Phoebe but ultimately thinking that their Phoebe is gone and Piper refusing not to give up and stepping up to the plate to lead her/Prue towards saving her. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7170149
Pearson80 December 13, 2021 Share December 13, 2021 (edited) 20 hours ago, Primal Slayer said: I could definitely see Evil Phoebe having some type of line about "Now I have the power" "Now I'm the strongest sister" in regards to Prue. I could also see Prue trying to get through to Phoebe but ultimately thinking that their Phoebe is gone and Piper refusing not to give up and stepping up to the plate to lead her/Prue towards saving her. I could see Evil Phoebe being courted by an evil coven of witches and being crowned as their queen since she is one of the most powerful witches of all time. Phoebe should have been a psychologist since she was always the most empathetic in the original power of 3. Phoebe helping people overcome their traumas would have been great. Phoebe was meant to be a healer as Melinda Warren told her in season 1. Phoebe could also be a teacher of young witches helping them master their craft. Phoebe embraced her destiny as a charmed one with gusto. I also thought that Phoebe should have helped the police mainly Darryl locate missing children and adults with her premonition power. There could have been a story where a serial killer was stalking San Francisco and Phoebe played a big part in catching him behind the scenes. Shannon did want the show to go darker more serious and it would have been a perfect opportunity to showcase evil human beings and how the sisters deal with them given what they learned in not punishing the guilty. I always got the impression that the storylines for Paige when it came to social work and teaching was meant for Phoebe, had Shannon not gotten fired. The show tried to make Phoebe the middle sister after Prue died and it never worked. Edited December 13, 2021 by Pearson80 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7171564
andromeda331 December 13, 2021 Share December 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Pearson80 said: I could see Evil Phoebe being courted by an evil coven of witches and being crowned as their queen since she is one of the most powerful witches of all time. Phoebe should have been a psychologist since she was always the most empathetic in the original power of 3. Phoebe helping people overcome their traumas would have been great. Phoebe was meant to be a healer as Melinda Warren told her in season 1. Phoebe could also be a teacher of young witches helping them master their craft. Phoebe embraced her destiny as a charmed one with gusto. I also thought that Phoebe should have helped the police mainly Darryl locate missing children and adults with her premonition power. There could have been a story where a serial killer was stalking San Francisco and Phoebe played a big part in catching him behind the scenes. Shannon did want the show to go darker more serious and it would have been a perfect opportunity to showcase evil human beings and how the sisters deal with them given what they learned in not punishing the guilty. I always got the impression that the storylines for Paige when it came to social work and teaching was meant for Phoebe, had Shannon not gotten fired. The show tried to make Phoebe the middle sister after Prue died and it never worked. I really wish they had done those stories with the police station. They had so much potential with helping out Darryl and they didn't really use it. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7172394
Primal Slayer December 14, 2021 Share December 14, 2021 23 hours ago, andromeda331 said: I really wish they had done those stories with the police station. They had so much potential with helping out Darryl and they didn't really use it. Once again....a storyline that seemed like they would've expanded more on but dropped. We started S3 out with Prue/Phoebe helping Darryl and then nada after the premiere. That entire premiere could've been expanded to half a seasons worth of stories. Demons inhabiting human bodies is a good storyline. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7174311
4evaQuez December 26, 2021 Share December 26, 2021 Season 4. I of course need to address Rose McGowan. I remember when it was first announced that Rose McGowan would be the third Charmed one once Shannen Doherty left the show. I was not a Rose McGowan fan. I was too young to watch Scream and Jawbreaker, so I knew RG from her red carpet appearances with Marilyn Manson. I could not envision her on a show like Charmed or working with HMC or AM. I thought the chemistry and magic of the show would be destroyed and Charmed would soon end. Jennifer Love Hewitt was my favorite of the rumored actresses. Tiffani Amber Thiessen was also rumored. I kinda loved the idea of TAT making a career of replacing SD after SD is fired from a project. Soleil Moon Frye was also rumored. I only knew of her from Sabrina the Teenage Witch. She was my second least favorite choice. However, I also remember the summer before Charmed premiered for Season 4 and before the Season 4 promo phots was released. The new Charmed ones were promoting AOL - does anyone remember that. LOL. The three were with the then president of the company. The three are laughing, and he's running from the three. It was given some hokey witch pun as a way of promoting the show and AOL. I really tried to find that photo, but I could not. There was also an E! True Hollywood Special that summer about the new Charmed ones. I distinctly remember HMC talking about how excited she is to get to re-envision, and most shows don't get the chance to re-envision themselves in Season 4 like they are. There was a lot of behind the scenes footage with Rose. Finally, by the time the official promo photos came out, I thought RG may actually be a great replacement. For all of Charmed's faults, I do think they did as good a job as possible of transitioning RG into the show. While I was still hesitant, I was also somewhat optimistic. Lastly, I remember an article in TV Guide - again, does anyone remember when that was a magazine? It announced that RG, HMC, and AM signed a 3-year contract for Charmed on top of their plans for Season 4. Charmed's future seemed secure enough for me to comeback hopeful. Acting: About the show, this may be an extreme unpopular opinion, but I actually think Season 4 has the best acting of the series. HMC is obviously given a lot of material as she grieves Prue. Hell Hath No Fury is easily my favorite. Brain Drain is another that asks HMC to balance high emotional drama with almost wacky comedy, and she does so expertly. RG has a timid and silent strength as Paige this year. She also balances hope at the thought of having sisters with trepidation as to how she fits into their life. Finally A Paige from the Past shows that she can carry her own dramatic plots, but even A Knight to Remember shows RG making the Evil Enchantress feel completely different and even "lived in" for the 45 minute episode. AM of course gets Long Live the Queen which I think is by far her best dramatic work on the show. However, in the first half of the season, she really helps to carry the comedy and use her Who's the Boss training. Lost and Bound is a standout. Even Brian Krause, who I think is a really weak actor, delivers a pretty good performance in Charmed and Dangerous after he's shot with the black lighter arrow. Julian McMahon delivers what he always delivers. That's not an insult, but there's nothing that's particularly different from Season 3 or Season 5. Lastly, there's Debbie Morgan. Her Seer easily could have been campy and forgettable. However, she gives her enough gravitas to always make her feel threatening and like the smartest person in the room. Her smirks of self-satisfaction whenever a scheme comes together are adorable. Prebangs Phoebe: I think the show is kinda two seasons in one. There's Prebangs Phoebe and then Postbangs Phoebe. I'll discuss Prebangs Phoebe season first. Relationships: Piper, Phoebe, Paige: At first, the show is obviously trying to recreate the Prue/Piper/Phoebe dynamic with Piper/Phoebe/Paige. Phoebe and Leo discuss in Hell Hath No Fury about the difficulties Phoebe is having as a middle sister. The show quickly realizes this dynamic does not work. Prue had an intense authoritative communication style, and Phoebe had an innate defiant rebelliousness about her. Their clashes always seemed inevitable. The best Piper could do was mitigate and delay the damage. There is always a tension there that is balanced with love, history, and good intentions. That's obviously not there with Piper/Paige. Piper's style is snarkier, more passive-aggressive, more martyr like and she often holds a lot in until she explodes. However, there are also a lot more chances to reason with Piper before she gets to those final two stages. Paige also isn't outright defiant and is a lot more responsible than Phoebe. We know she graduated from Berkeley, is an assistant social worker, a recovering alcoholic, and lives alone in a reasonably tidy loft for an early/mid twenty something. There isn't the danger that Paige will run off or do something destructive to prove a point like Phoebe would do. Both Piper and Paige are reasonable when they listen to each other, but the difficulty is getting them to listen to each other. As a result, their tension doesn't seem as explosive as Prue and Phoebe's tension. It mostly feels like people who haven't learned each other's communication style, but who do ultimately want the same thing. The show eventually allows Leo to play the "middle sibling" for Piper/Paige, which works beautifully. While Leo is Piper's husband, he does do a good job of simply playing the whitelighter role when he needs to buffer between the two. He does a good job of pointing out to both how they are not listening to each other and the unique perspectives both bring to the discussion. He also knows how to remove himself from a discussion to give them the tools to better communicate with each other. Size Matters is a perfect example of this. This also gives Leo an actual purpose on the show. For the first time, he actually feels like a member of the family and not an unwelcome visitor who you have to be polite to until he leaves. Piper and Leo: Without having to whine about the Elders, the two actually are given some cute scenes. One of my favorites is at the end of Muse to My Ears when the two are making dinner together and are feeding each other grapes. There's the love scene in We're Off to See the Wizard, there's another scene where Piper is playfully chasing Leo in P3, but I can't remember what episode it is. We actually see them discussing their different parenting ideas in Lost and Bound. Granted this makes absolutely no sense with Piper and Leo's characterizations, and the show makes a huge continuity error with why Grams bound their powers. That being said, we see them discussing their future goals and hopes. Saving Private Leo gives us an indication that the two actually discuss Leo's life, and Leo is actually angry with Piper for making a decision without including him - this becomes a bigger issue in the next season. In general, the two actually seem to talk to each other and like each other. Without all the "will they; won't they" drama, the two can actually be cute and fun. Paige and Leo: I actually really love their dynamic this season, and I find it sad that it was dropped in future seasons. Paige comes to Leo for advice and actually respects his opinion. It makes sense that Leo would be the person she would connect with the most because he obviously is not comparing her to Prue in any capacity. He also is her thought partner when she is concerned about the intentions of Piper and Phoebe. A Knight to Remember being a great example. However, Leo also goes to Paige in a way I don't think we've ever seen him go to Prue/Piper/Phoebe. In There's Something about Leo, it's Paige who he confides in regarding the two ghosts he believes he let die and the pain of losing a charge. In Long Live the Queen he confides in Paige regarding his fears about Piper losing herself in grief. I actually think the two have a better brother/sister dynamic this first year than we ever see with Leo/Phoebe or Leo/Prue. Phoebe: Phoebe is actually not a big factor in Prebangs Phoebe Season 4. She is basically the new Piper of seasons 1 and 2 with even less to do. Piper and to a lesser extent Paige are already the super witches. They are the ones mixing potions, writing spells, inciting the incident for the demon of the week, etc. Phoebe is mainly comedic levity. While in some episodes she does that well, in some episodes, she relies on her baby voice. Phoebe and Cole are basically repeating their Season 3 storyline. This time, Prue isn't around to help build drama. The Source is mostly not around. And Paige and Cole don't have an antagonistic relationship yet. Cole and Leo actually build more of a friendship or at least kinship with each other. And Phoebe is just kinda there. I have no idea if AM demanded more for herself, but the TV Guide article I mentioned earlier noted she was the highest paid actress on Charmed that season, and I'm sure either she and/or the show wanted her to earn that paycheck. I feel this is already too long. So I'll make another post for Postbangs Phoebe Season 4. P.S. I never understood the Leo/Paige discussion in Enter the Demon about Paige not being able to fight with her power. We outright see her stop a man's heart with her telekinetic orbing. How is that not an offensive power? P.P.S. A Knight to Remember has Piper drinking from a "God Bless America" coffee cup. This is obviously the first episode the show filmed after 9/11. See you for part 2. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7195145
4evaQuez December 27, 2021 Share December 27, 2021 Postbangs Phoebe: Relationships: Piper and Paige: This is when we start to see a major evolution of the Piper/Paige dynamic. My unpopular opinion is that Piper/Paige is one of my favorite, if not my favorite, sister pairing. With Phoebe becoming more distant in the second half of the season, Piper/Paige naturally become closer. Something I never realized is how much more protective Piper becomes of Paige in the second half. In Saving Private Leo, when Piper hears Paige in distress from talking to the ghost, Piper runs in the room and physically places Paige behind her in a protective manner. In We're Off to See the Wizard, Piper places her arm in front off Paige when Julie, or whatever the assistant's name is, shimmers into the room. It is very reminiscent of when a parent slams on the break and instinctively places their arm in front of their child. In Long Live the Queen, Leo orbs Piper to the alley. However, once the demon arrives, Piper moves closer to Paige and positions herself in front of Paige. I'm not certain if all of these things were intentional, but it does show this acceptance of Paige that was absent in the first half of the season. Piper, at times, was downright cruel to Paige, so it was nice to see this silent acceptance and even protective love of Paige from Piper. Lastly, in Bite Me, Piper somewhat reluctantly talks to Paige about her fertility issues. In Womb Raider, Piper chooses to confide in Paige. While Piper can still be somewhat mean to Paige in the second half of the season, the conclusion of The Fifth Halliwell for example. I don't think there's anything as mean as Piper needlessly yelling at Paige like in Charmed and Dangerous. (Yes, I know Leo was shot with the poisoned arrow, but I always hate seeing Piper yell at Paige like Paige shot Leo herself.) Phoebe and Cole: If this were a different show, I think Phoebe/Cole would have been an allegory for an abusive relationship. I know that's not what the show is attempting to do. However, Cole is separating Phoebe from her only family and support system, she has to ask him for permission to invite her sisters to their home, she starts off financially dependent on him, she is constantly apologizing for having very reasonable concerns, he's manipulative in order to get what he wants, he planting seeds of doubt in her mind in Marry-Go-Round to distort her sense of reality. He even uses their unborn child and these guilty tactics to garner her allegiance. Again, I realize I am reading into things in a way the show does not want me to, but if Charmed were a different/more serious show, it could easily make a few adjustments to really explore the allegory. It's also interesting watching Lost and Bound with Grams cursing the ring. Cole tells Phoebe she could never lose herself in a marriage, yet that's exactly what happens. Phoebe chooses Cole at every possible turn. To be fair, this starts in Season 3. Something I never noticed before, and I think the show would have explored more with the Season 1 and Season 2 writers is that ultimately, it is Phoebe's premonitions that save Phoebe from her evil. Phoebe mentions several times that she can't ignore a premonition. She taunting the demons with death before her premonition. It is her premonition that really makes her question the Seer, her decisions, etc. I wonder if Constance had more control, would Phoebe's premonition would have been her killing an innocent for Cole and the underworld. Especially since in Womb Raider, The Seer mentions a human sacrifice for the coronation. When Paige asks Phoebe did she know about this part of the coronation, the show cuts away before Phoebe can give an answer. Since Phoebe was at the Coronation, wouldn't she have known about this requirement, and apparently, she was okay with it. All the ingredients are there. Morality Bites shows Phoebe killing with an offensive power. Phoebe's evil past life is mentioned in Pardon My Past, and she chose to be evil for a warlock there, too. Leo specifically mentions in that episode that offensive powers are taken away from you in future lives if they are misused. Seasons 1 and 2 also featured episodes specifically about how premonitions are the most coveted power. I wonder if her premonition ability was originally supposed to play a larger role in saving Phoebe. Once again giving her ability a showcase episode while saving her from damnation. As is, it feels like a plot point that the show intends to be more significant. This is basically were Phoebe's character never really returns to her former glory. Not because of her decision to be evil, but no one is really upset with her. Granted, this is in character for Leo and Piper who were never really that upset about the Cole lie in Season 3. Without Prue, there's no one to really take Phoebe to task, and Paige is too new in the group to be able to call Phoebe on her crap. Piper has already shown were her loyalties lie in that regard. This is also when we see people just randomly telling Phoebe how beautiful and great she is. In The Fifth Halliwell, we see a man just randomly stop everything he's doing to hit on Phoebe. While this wouldn't be so bad or noticeable usually, it is noticeable because it seems very Season 1 of Charmed. In Witch Way Now, Phoebe's assistant tells Phoebe how remarkable she is for simply doing her job. Since this "Phoebe is the best" narrative is going to continue, I can't help but to notice it and hate it now. Speaking of Witch Way Now, I've always been confused by this episode. Mainly, I believe the angel when he says they will have a very normal life. However, I don't understand why Piper and Phoebe are so gung-ho. We've seen people who live normal lives be killed by demons, cursed by witches, trapped in hell dimensions, etc. Even Prue ended up in that ice cream truck as just a normal girl. Being normal does not make you immune to evil magical forces. I always wished Paige would have brought that up in an argument. Some random thoughts: 1. I wish the show had done more with the sisters saving innocents in very mortal situations. I always liked how in A Paige from the Past how we see Piper and Cole saving a woman from a car wreck. I liked Trial by Magic for the same reason. Phoebe even outright says that it feels good to help someone and get credit for it in a non supernatural setting. In Brain Drain, we see Piper trying to stop a purse snatcher. Granted, it's in her mind, but I do like the implication that Piper would do the same thing in the real world. There was just something nice about the Charmed ones helping people in ways that wasn't always saving them from demonic forces. It's also why I like the witchhunter serial killer in the season finale. 2.I liked Rose McGowan as Paige. However, I do sometimes wonder what a Jennifer Love Hewitt Paige would have been like. I imagine her being more saccharine, less silently strong, and more willing to emotionally connect with others. Think Hewitt's Ghost Whisperer character if you've ever seen that show. However, I also imagine her Paige and Phoebe having a lot more difficulty getting along. I imagine her playing Paige as much less reserved and navigating a tense emotional situation with Paige/Cole/Phoebe and more morally sure, upright, and combative. Part of this is JLH's acting style, and part of this is my theory that JLH and AM would have a lot more behind the scenes battles for control. JLH was a name during this time period and could have commanded more pay and creative control in a way that I imagine AM would not approve of. 3. Seasons 1-4 seem like the conclusion of Charmed as originally envisioned. Up until this point, everything seems to flow together naturally. While not perfect, it at least feels like the same show. I'm pretty sure Season 5 is not only when we get a huge tonal change, but it's also when Charmed is moved from Thursdays to Sundays. This seems to be when the show doubles down on it being a "family show" to quote a Season 7 line from Piper in the Godiva episode. Season 5 seems solitary as no other season feels like Season 5. Then we get into Seasons 6-8 which all seem to flow into each other, for better or for worse. 4. This could have gone under relationships, but I decided to put it here. I never really got the Piper/Phoebe dynamic. Hence, why I did not put it up earlier. I think the show does a better job of defining their relationship this season. Phoebe is less rebellious as she has no one to rebel against. Piper plays more a big sister role and gives actual advice to Phoebe. The two have great chemistry. However, I'm still just not certain how I should define it. Maybe it needs no definition, but I also think it's probably why it's easily my least favorite along with Phoebe/Paige. I'm just not certain what role Phoebe plays in this newly crafted Charmed ones. Maybe the rest of my rewatch will help me answer that question. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7197182
Primal Slayer December 27, 2021 Share December 27, 2021 Great pair of posts! I dont remember the AOL post, my mind always goes to the Teen Vogue shoot which interestingly enough has Holly talking about how the plan was for Shannen to return when they filmed AHBL http://www.hollymcombs.com/SeventeenNovember2001_4.jpg Also nice that they did so many different covers for them Of course I believe it was known that Shannen had a stipulation in her contract that she be primarily set in the center of cast photos so we definitely saw a different energy in that area when she left. The one thing missing from Season 4 is having Phoebe have a breakdown over Prues death. They put all this heavy lifting on Piper and we really got to explore her grief but Phoebe just went on with her life as if it was another normal day. Of course they played it off as Phoebe having to be the strong one (so Alyssa doesnt have to mourn her ex frenemy) but having her have just 1 scene where she's in her room alone and breaks down before putting herself back together and putting on a strong face would've been so good for her. For the most part the introduction of Paige was really good and almost effortless. For once the writers really took time to think these things through compared to later seasons where....its like they just wrote it day of. I honestly dont know why they didnt play out Long Live The Queen longer than they did. It should've been up through the finale, Pipers pregnancy could've waited. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7197595
4evaQuez December 27, 2021 Share December 27, 2021 @Primal Slayer Thank you for those magazine covers. There's just something about the early 2000s aesthetic that makes me smile. Now I wanna know who had TVs best butts in 2001. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7197606
Primal Slayer December 28, 2021 Share December 28, 2021 I was watching some rare Charmed WB bumpers And they really didnt care about who HMC was at the beginning of the series lol. Just went straight to Shannen/Alyssa. And somehow no one noticed that they used the photo from the unaired pilot that had a much different, TALLER, Phoebe. Also I miss TheWB, CW doesnt even try. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7199121
4evaQuez December 29, 2021 Share December 29, 2021 Is it sad that I actually remember all of those? CW seems so lazy in comparison. I did love how they called Charmed one of WB's biggest shows. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7199348
Primal Slayer December 29, 2021 Share December 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said: Is it sad that I actually remember all of those? CW seems so lazy in comparison. I did love how they called Charmed one of WB's biggest shows. Not sad at all lol. The CW is 99% more lazier than TheWB. They put barely anything into marketing, went with that ugly green for everything, and doesnt feel anything like The WB. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7199362
Pearson80 December 29, 2021 Share December 29, 2021 (edited) On 12/27/2021 at 6:46 PM, Primal Slayer said: Great pair of posts! I dont remember the AOL post, my mind always goes to the Teen Vogue shoot which interestingly enough has Holly talking about how the plan was for Shannen to return when they filmed AHBL http://www.hollymcombs.com/SeventeenNovember2001_4.jpg Also nice that they did so many different covers for them Of course I believe it was known that Shannen had a stipulation in her contract that she be primarily set in the center of cast photos so we definitely saw a different energy in that area when she left. The one thing missing from Season 4 is having Phoebe have a breakdown over Prues death. They put all this heavy lifting on Piper and we really got to explore her grief but Phoebe just went on with her life as if it was another normal day. Of course they played it off as Phoebe having to be the strong one (so Alyssa doesnt have to mourn her ex frenemy) but having her have just 1 scene where she's in her room alone and breaks down before putting herself back together and putting on a strong face would've been so good for her. For the most part the introduction of Paige was really good and almost effortless. For once the writers really took time to think these things through compared to later seasons where....its like they just wrote it day of. I honestly dont know why they didnt play out Long Live The Queen longer than they did. It should've been up through the finale, Pipers pregnancy could've waited. I actually think that they should have introduced Paige in episode 3 of season 4. The first two episodes should have been about Piper and Phoebe adjusting to life without Prue and the power of 3.. Perhaps they are being attacked left and right by demons. So they are not only mourning Prue but trying to stay alive.. There should have been tension between Piper and Phoebe over Phoebe chasing after Cole when Phoebe should have been with her sisters. I will always love the original power of 3 and it is a shame that we never saw Prue have a full life with her sisters by her side.. Season 3 with Constance writing it, I have no doubt that she had big plans for the sisters and an alive Prue continuing with her sisters in season 4 would have been lit.. Edited December 29, 2021 by Pearson80 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7199475
dariajade December 30, 2021 Share December 30, 2021 Some of my Random thoughts on Charmed Kind of wished that the show started with the sisters all having led separate independent lives, in different cities, until their Grams died & they came together, learned about magic and formed new healthier relationships with each other as adults instead of just backsliding into old familiar patterns. Hated the lack of consistency in Character Development, Powers, Relationships & Rules of Magic e.g. Personal Gain Consequences was a Crap-Shoot, as well as how gimmicky and fantastical the show became the longer it ran. I preferred the more serious tone of the first 4 seasons. I also think the plot lines of season 4 should of been split into two seasons and not meshed into one. Wished they could of explored the Magic more instead of just relaying on their Active Powers. Wyatt should of just had the power of Projection if he had to be all powerful, Chris should have had Powers new to the Warren Line and Paige should of only had ~ Orbing, TK Orbing{advancements of Remote Orbing & Orb Shield later on} & Sensing her family/evil, maybe Photokinesis as well, as that could of a good defensive power without being overpowered. The rest of Paige powers on the show were mostly gimmicks to move plot along and made her more Whitelighter than Witch, especially since with the Right Spell or Potion they could of probably been mimicked as needed. Paige is my favourite Sister despite the Writing, but they did her dirty so many times ~ introducing her whilst the sisters are still very deep in their shock/grief instead of later on, having her giving up her dream of being a Social Worker, working various crappy Temp Jobs, becoming a Whitelighter whilst still alive, no friends outside flaky Glenn which didn’t last long, zero contact with her surviving adoptive family, as well as down-grading her Alcoholism to merely a footnote despite inheriting it from her Dad, and her forgiving/growing close to Patty but not Sam when they both gave her up and Patty had her other daughters to comfort herself with. I did love her with Henry and wished they could of met sooner, maybe seeing them becoming foster/adoptive parents themselves to magical kids who would have had a harder time in foster care having to hide their own family magic. Hated Magic School, it never should of existed, though loved the fact that Wyatt went Evil due to the traumatic actions of a so called ‘Good Guy’. Also hated the execution of Billy & Christy storyline, the plot wasn’t that bad ~ Witch kidnapped & brainwashed by Evil, Desperate Sister trying to find & save her, one sister manipulating the other, them joining forces and trying to take out the Charmed Ones who are suffering from various degrees of Burnout, the magical world turning against the Charmed Ones, the manipulated Sister seeing through the deception and being forced to kill her brainwashed sister who is too far gone. There should have been an underground Witches Network to help and support each other as needed, without constantly relying on Whitelighter’s who follow the orders of unknown and out of touch people, would of led to some interesting new characters and relationships. I am amazed that Piper didn’t bind Wyatt & Chris Powers as she once said that she was thankful that her own powers were bound as a child and it would have been more inline with her Character arc of wanting a normal life. Also kind of wished she met Mark Chao whilst he was alive and gotten together with him, the longer Leo and Piper were together the more dysfunctional they became. Didn’t like Phoebe after she got together with Cole, they were both unhealthy for each other, she should died instead of Prue, it would have been an interesting dynamic between her and Paige as they are very similar but Paige was allowed to be a child longer. It could of also led to more character development for Cole with him fighting Evil for his own reasons and not because he wants to keep his girlfriend/obsession happy if you didn't want him going full on Evil. Or if Phoebe had to live then she should of ended up as a Psychic Police Consultant{we could of seen more Daryl}, or as a Manager for P3 with Piper opening a second business i.e. the Restaurant of her dreams. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7200531
Pearson80 December 30, 2021 Share December 30, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, dariajade said: I am amazed that Piper didn’t bind Wyatt & Chris Powers as she once said that she was thankful that her own powers were bound as a child and it would have been more inline with her Character arc of wanting a normal life. Also kind of wished she met Mark Chao whilst he was alive and gotten together with him, the longer Leo and Piper were together the more dysfunctional they became. I absolutely hated Leo and Piper together, they were cute in season 1 and he should have remained there. Piper should have married a mortal man preferably a chef who would have kept her grounded in the natural world and given her the stability and normalcy that she always wanted.. 4 hours ago, dariajade said: Didn’t like Phoebe after she got together with Cole, they were both unhealthy for each other, she should died instead of Prue, it would have been an interesting dynamic between her and Paige as they are very similar but Paige was allowed to be a child longer. It could of also led to more character development for Cole with him fighting Evil for his own reasons and not because he wants to keep his girlfriend/obsession happy if you didn't want him going full on Evil. Or if Phoebe had to live then she should of ended up as a Psychic Police Consultant{we could of seen more Daryl}, or as a Manager for P3 with Piper opening a second business i.e. the Restaurant of her dreams. I loved Phoebe in season 1 and season 2 and Cole destroyed her in season 3. Constance never wanted Cole to be a half demon that fell for Phoebe for real, she wanted him to be pure evil intent on destroying the power of 3 via Phoebe who was considered the weakest in the power of 3 by the evil world. Phoebe should have orchestrated his vanquish with her growing premonition power after she realized that Cole was a fraud. Instead Brad Kern had Phoebe orchestrate his fake death to fool her sisters, putting them all in danger. Phoebe never survived that character assassination that Constance refused to write.. Phoebe should have been working with Darryl to solve cases, I remember that episode in season 1 where she had a premonition because of a bracelet at Buckland's that reunited a missing daughter with her mother. That was the Phoebe that I absolutely adored. She was empathetic, persistent fearless and letting her powers drive her to do the right thing.. 4 hours ago, dariajade said: Wished they could of explored the Magic more instead of just relaying on their Active Powers. Wyatt should of just had the power of Projection if he had to be all powerful, Chris should have had Powers new to the Warren Line and Paige should of only had ~ Orbing, TK Orbing{advancements of Remote Orbing & Orb Shield later on} & Sensing her family/evil, maybe Photokinesis as well, as that could of a good defensive power without being overpowered. The rest of Paige powers on the show were mostly gimmicks to move plot along and made her more Whitelighter than Witch, especially since with the Right Spell or Potion they could of probably been mimicked as needed. Wyatt being all powerful just ruined the premise of the whole show. The charmed ones were the most powerful witches that the world had ever known. Nobody could do what they could do at their most powerful, not their ancestors like Melinda Warren in the past nor their descendants in the future. Prue and Piper as children with Phoebe in the womb as a fetus were more powerful than Grams and Patty when the sisters went back in time in the 70's during season 1. Edited December 30, 2021 by Pearson80 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7201523
Pearson80 December 30, 2021 Share December 30, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, dariajade said: Paige is my favourite Sister despite the Writing, but they did her dirty so many times ~ introducing her whilst the sisters are still very deep in their shock/grief instead of later on, having her giving up her dream of being a Social Worker, working various crappy Temp Jobs, becoming a Whitelighter whilst still alive, no friends outside flaky Glenn which didn’t last long, zero contact with her surviving adoptive family, as well as down-grading her Alcoholism to merely a footnote despite inheriting it from her Dad, and her forgiving/growing close to Patty but not Sam when they both gave her up and Patty had her other daughters to comfort herself with. I did love her with Henry and wished they could of met sooner, maybe seeing them becoming foster/adoptive parents themselves to magical kids who would have had a harder time in foster care having to hide their own family magic. I did like Paige but if Prue had not died then she should have been a Warren witch via Grams brother who was on the family tree in season 2. It would have been interesting to see a powerful Warren witch like the sisters in the present who was not charmed. The show missed an opportunity in not having a story where Sam and Victor had to team up to save their daughters.. It would have been cool to see Patty's reaction to them. We know that Grams hated Victor but how did she feel about Sam? The show also missed an opportunity in not having Paige and Victor interact on some level on the show. They barely acknowledged each other and I always felt it was odd given how much Victor hated Sam due to what happened between him and Patty.. Edited December 30, 2021 by Pearson80 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7201532
magicdog December 30, 2021 Share December 30, 2021 On 12/27/2021 at 3:46 PM, Primal Slayer said: The one thing missing from Season 4 is having Phoebe have a breakdown over Prues death. They put all this heavy lifting on Piper and we really got to explore her grief but Phoebe just went on with her life as if it was another normal day. Of course they played it off as Phoebe having to be the strong one (so Alyssa doesnt have to mourn her ex frenemy) but having her have just 1 scene where she's in her room alone and breaks down before putting herself back together and putting on a strong face would've been so good for her. This sort of happened when Phoebe was recounting how she borrowed Prue's jacket and her then boyfriend's cat peed on it. It looked like AM was really trying hard to be sad over it, but considering she and SD weren't getting along offscreen, it was hard to believe. I think it was in "A Knight To Remember", because the sisters were deciding if Paige should move into Prue's old room. 5 hours ago, dariajade said: Didn’t like Phoebe after she got together with Cole, they were both unhealthy for each other, she should died instead of Prue, it would have been an interesting dynamic between her and Paige as they are very similar but Paige was allowed to be a child longer. It could of also led to more character development for Cole with him fighting Evil for his own reasons and not because he wants to keep his girlfriend/obsession happy if you didn't want him going full on Evil. Or if Phoebe had to live then she should of ended up as a Psychic Police Consultant{we could of seen more Daryl}, or as a Manager for P3 with Piper opening a second business i.e. the Restaurant of her dreams. ITA! Cole and Phoebe's relationship was far from healthy and Cole kept going back and forth about "being good" and "once a demon always a demon" nonsense. I really think Cole deserved a destiny of his own. There was a reason why his mother targeted his father and trapped his soul, but we never got to know more or have a resolution to the story once Cole got his dad's soul back. Had Prue lived and Phoebe died, I can see Paige's character fitting in easier as the youngest sister and Prue's mother instincts kicking in again - not to mention feeling guilt ridden over losing Phoebe. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7201551
Writing Wrongs January 4, 2022 Share January 4, 2022 Phoebe became very unlikable after they introduced Cole. I just bought Season 8 on blu-ray, so I've got all seasons now and am about to do a series re-watch. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7210114
4evaQuez January 11, 2022 Share January 11, 2022 In isolation, Season 5 is a highly entertaining season. The episodes are binge worthy even before binging became a part of the entertainment lexicon. They are easily rewatchable, comedic, a good blend of whimsy, comedy, lighthearted action, and some great performances from RM and HMC. According to Wikipedia, the ratings went up for Season 5 after falling in Season 4. Season 5 is also the highest rated Paige season according to Wikipedia. There are links included there. I can honestly see why. The Piper/Phoebe/Paige dynamic has its best chemistry this season, and I actually think this season has a lot in common with Season 2. Some of the best episodes of the series, the show is retooling itself to find its new identity, some great sisterly bonding moments. Lastly, the show is inviting in a way that I think is exclusive to this season. Unfortunately, when we look at Season 5 in context with the Charmed series, there are a lot of holes. The Cole arc is abysmal and ends in a whimper. Paige is the only one to experience it or even care. This is when the show starts its weird ritual of revolving a pivotal episode around one or two characters. In this case, the 100th episode being centered around Paige and Cole. I actually like the episode, but it was still a weird choice to make. The 2-part season finale was centered around Piper and Leo with a dash of Chris. Since this episode sets up the sixth season arc, I'm including the season finale here. This is also when the show splits into two different shows concurrently. Neither show is the supernatural thriller of the first 4 seasons. Piper and Paige are in a fantasy show. Phoebe is in a romantic comedy. Phoebe even gets her own set in the Bay Mirror, and she gets her own supporting cast with Elise and Jason. Oh My Goddess sets up the family drama that Piper, Leo, and Chris will star in for Season 6. I love Season 5, and I don't think the show is completely at the point where it's 3 witches who happen to be roommates, but it is quickly getting there. Lastly, let me be clear that I don't blame the writers for Season 5. I actually think there are a lot of great episodes here. I also think the writers had some intriguing ideas for character growth, motivation, and direction this season that I assume they were not allowed to explore because of the new direction of the show. I also think AM and BK did not pull their weight this season. In AM's case, she could and has done better. In BK's case, he's just not given anything to do. Check "up there" and being a babysitter is not character development. I think the writers were given a very specific job, and they did that job well. Even if it's not necessarily the job I would have wanted. Phoebe - Starting with AM and Phoebe. It's clear that the writers realized that Phoebe was headed in some dead-end directions very early in the season and tried to course correct. I wonder how much AM being a producer limited what they could do with the character. The Eyes Have It and A Witch in Time are both episodes that focused on Phoebe, her internal dialogue, journey, and her premonition power. The Eyes Have It is the more crucial episode as it feels like it was supposed to be the more classic Phoebe episode. Phoebe realizes her dedication to her job is poisonous. Not only to her, but to her powers, to innocents, and to how she connects with others. She spends the entire episode running away from her Charmed duties, she's so disconnected from her sisters that they don't even realize her powers are on the fritz, and she admits that she feels overburdened with her job. The big advancement in her premonitions is supposed to represent Phoebe reconnecting with herself, choosing her sisters, and not prioritizing her job. The importance of eyes, sight, and how seeing the world or not seeing the world have consequences that reverberate are themes that flood this episode. This is a great episode to retool Phoebe in a natural and much needed way before she becomes a lost cause. Nothing comes from it. A Witch in Time isn't as in-depth as the other episode mentioned, but it is still one that centers Phoebe's premonitions. The show says this is a power advancement. The show has seemingly forgot that Phoebe has had non magical oriented premonitions since Season 1. I've always remembered Phoebe's premonition about the guy who gets hit by a pink Cadillac because that was the first time we learned that Phoebe sees her visions in color although we see them in black and white. Phoebe also uses her premonitions to help an elderly couple with a lottery ticket while her lottery ticket magically disappears. Anyway, the show pretends this is a power advancement, so they are at least trying to represent premonitions as an important ability. However, unlike Seasons 1 and 2 episodes where premonition centered episodes show the audience why Phoebe's power is the most coveted. This one has Phoebe ultimately get herself killed in one reality. Then she gets herself and Paige killed in her current reality. The guy then ultimately dies in the third reality. There are three big problems. A - Phoebe dies multiple times due to her power. B - Phoebe doesn't even care that the guy dies in the 3rd reality. C - Phoebe is not the one to learn this lesson. Piper kinda learns the lesson but not really. Piper in the third reality only hears of Paige and Phoebe's death. She doesn't actually experience it. It's hard to say she learns the lesson Prue learns in Death Takes a Halliwell since she only has a slight connection to the guy and her choice was to prevent death - Paige and Phoebe - which she actually does. This is also the season where Phoebe starts having offscreen premonitions a lot. She touches something, closes her eyes, has a premonition we can't see, and then Paige must figure out how to stop whatever it was that we didn't see. Lastly, Paige is the one to have a quasi premonition in Oh My Goddess as Paige is the one who feels that something is wrong and is having dreams about upcoming disaster. She literally talks to Phoebe about these dreams, and an Elder says Paige doesn't have premonitions. For some reason, no one in the writer's room, producing room, and AM had no problem approving this script. Phoebe is truly not on the same show she once was nor is she the same character. The awful thing is that I don't think AM cares. Piper and Paige - I paired these two because they spend so much time together. I wonder if I showed someone Season 5, told them nothing about which sister was the long-lost sister, would they come to the conclusion that it's Phoebe who is the fourth sister not Paige. I'll obviously have to skip the 2 or 3 episodes that mention this, but I don't think I'd realize Phoebe and Piper are the two who grew up together. Nymphs Just Wanna Have Fun is the episode I think best summarizes the Piper/Paige dynamic. I know I may be giving the writers more credit than they deserve, but I love that in essence, this episode shows how both women are living in Prue's shadow. In Sympathy for the Demon, Paige gets dialogue outright stating how she still feels like she's living in Prue's shadow. This is because of Barbas; however, we've always been told that Barbas manipulates one's greatest fear and not that he inserts it. Paige must still fear that she is a Prue replacement. In this episode, her big mission is crafting a spell Prue cast, which she completes at the end of the episode. (Sidenote: Paige literally creates life with the pigeon. That seemed like it should be a bigger deal. At least it took her days or weeks to actually do it). It is the feeling of being an outcast that helps her connect with Cole's suffering. She also telekinetically orbs the broken potion like Prue. In Nymphs Just Wanna Have Fun, Piper, as the oldest sister, feels she should be the leader. What I think is unspoken is that she feels this because Prue was the leader. Piper and Phoebe never really questioned that. Sure there were episodes when they were under a spell, and Phoebe was rebellious. However, Phoebe rebelled like a troubled kid in the most strict teacher's classroom. The kid doesn't want to be the teacher; they just want to show the teacher the limits of their power. Neither Phoebe or Piper actually challenged Prue as the leader. Prue never considered her sisters leaders. It just was the unspoken rule. Paige challenges the unspoken rule in a way Piper nor Phoebe would ever do. Piper, in her mind, feels she failed Prue once when Phoebe became the Queen of All Evil. She says this in Long Live the Queen. I'm certain she doesn't wanna fail again. Paige challenging Piper, in some subconscious way, is Paige challenging Prue. The big problem here is that unlike the Prue/Piper/Phoebe dynamic where Prue was the defacto leader and the most natural leader; Piper is not a natural leader. Paige is the natural leader. Paige, however, is the newest and the youngest. I don't think Piper/Phoebe have ever judged Paige for being the youngest. I don't think we ever got dialogue from the two attacking Paige because of her age. We have gotten dialogue from the two attacking Paige because she was the newest. That begins in Season 4. This is where the differences in their personalities take center stage. Paige is take charge, thinks outside the box, runs in guns ablazing, creative, crafty, and is okay to do things alone if that means getting results. Piper is more cautious, more by the book, needs someone by her side, i.e. Prue, Leo, or Paige, to be assertive - assertive and not mean. Piper is mean, not assertive. Leo tries to play referee between the two like he did in Season 4, but he isn't as effective. Unlike Season 4 where Leo was a neutral party, Leo pretty much takes Piper's side this episode. Leo/Paige also just aren't shown to be as close with each other this season. Phoebe tries to play middle sister, but similarly to Season 4, she is an awful mediator. I find this odd since Phoebe has a degree in psychology. I love this episode because similarly to Season 4, Piper and Paige solve their problems together. Piper/Paige actually know each other on a personal level. Paige also pushes Piper in a way neither Phoebe or even Prue did. Paige pushes Piper to attempt to be assertive and take charge. When Paige becomes a Nymph, Piper thinks outside the box in a way Paige would to find Paige. Piper and Paige work together to craft a spell together to turn the demon into a tree. Paige allows Piper to grow. Piper allows Paige to have a firm place in the Halliwell family to be weird and creative but still needed by Piper and eventually Piper's sons. Wyatt says Paige is his favorite aunt in Season 7. Chris says Paige is his favorite aunt in Season 6. I love this episode and Piper/Paige; because similar to Piper/Prue, I could actually see them being friends even if they weren't sisters. When Prudence Melinda Halliwell becomes Wyatt Matthew Halliwell, it already feels earned in just a season and a half. Paige does feel as important to Piper as Prue was, but in a very different way. I've been on a lot of Charmed boards were we discuss how Prue's death helped Piper to grow. I think Paige's inclusion in Piper's life was just as important to that growth. While Paige may have fears that she is a Prue replacement in Season 5, I actually think Piper is beyond seeing her as a Prue replacement and simply sees Paige as Piper's sister. Random Thoughts 1. I wish the show used this season to help us learn more about Paige's family. This season we see Paige meet Grams and Sam. I liked both, and RM did a splendid job in Sam I Am. I wish we could have learned more about her adoptive family. She mentions an aunt and uncle in a Season 4 episode. I would have loved an episode where she had to protect them from some demon or even just introduce them to Piper/Phoebe. I also would have liked an episode where Paige had to protect her former sponsor because he/she was a future whitelighter. While I'm not a Glen fan, I still would have liked if his last episode wasn't Paige kidnapping his girlfriend, sending her to the Underworld, and then attempting to marry him. Paige/Victor also interact on screen for the first time this season. I say interact because they apparently met offscreen. I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, there shouldn't be any big emotions. Paige had nothing to do with Victor/Patty/Sam, and Victor shouldn't direct any anger at Paige. Paige met her biological father, mother, and grandmother at this point, and Victor is no one to her. That being said, I still feel like I wanted something for their first onscreen interaction. I'm not even sure what I want, but I know it's not what I received. 2.Phoebe/Leo oddly spend quite a few scenes together this season. I know the actors dated in real life at one point, and I wonder if this was the season that occurred. In Oh My Goddess, they give each other a big hug which seems odd. It seems odder because Paige/Leo do not hug. On one hand, Leo is the only character Phoebe can talk to about supernatural things since he's usually filling her in as Piper/Paige are already working on the vanquish. On the other hand, Leo doesn't actually have anything to do and Piper/Paige don't need him in their dynamic as a mediator like they did in Season 4. Leo/Phoebe may share scenes because there's just simply nothing else for them to do. 3. This is the season where the sisters randomly created potions for everything. They are using less spells, and the spells aren't as creative as they are in the past. In Season 1 we got lines like, "From now until it's now again" to signify 24 hours. In Season 5 we get, "I want good luck so my life won't suck" as a spell. It's not as awful as Season 6 "Get him the Frock out of here," but it's close. I do like the spell Piper/Paige create to turn the guy into a tree. I also like the spell Grams created to kill that random demon, "Hellspawn demon, creature of death, fire will take your very breath." It feels very Grams. 4. I don't know if this was a coincidence, but the women with telekinesis are the most natural leaders: Grams, Prue, Paige. I have a Grams/Victor rant I will add in a different post. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7222780
4evaQuez January 11, 2022 Share January 11, 2022 In Sympathy for the Demon, we see what is described as the moment Victor walks out of the girls' life. I decided to pay special attention, and it annoys me. First, we see Piper running to Grams with some gift. Grams immediately says that Victor helped her pick out the gift. That doesn't sound like the words of a woman who hates Victor. If Grams hated Victor and wanted him out of the girls' life, why would she immediately, with no prompting, share this happy moment that Piper is feeling with Victor. We then see Victor come from the living room. Victor and Grams seem to be having a pleasant enough moment with Piper until the demon comes. The demon throws a fireball and Grams firmly and authoritatively casts a spell vanquishing the demon. One of them hold Piper and the argument ensues. Victor talks about not wanting his girls to grow up around demons. Grams tells him he's overreacting. Victor is the one who chooses to leave. Grams does not kick Victor out of the girls' life as he claims. She doesn't even kick him out of the house. She seems prepared to stand her ground and convey her argument, but she never once says that Victor must leave the girls' life. That's what he chooses. Grams is the one who is left behind to comfort a devastated Piper as Victor walks out the door. Grams does not use a spell, she does not use her powers against him, she does not use this time to try to poison Piper's mind against him. She simply comforts her granddaughter as the only parental figure Piper has. What confuses me about this is this is when the girls' powers would have been bound. Why didn't Victor, as their father, seek custody of the girls if he wanted them to grow up with a demon free life. Him leaving the manor doesn't actually solve the problem. They are still living with Grams. As long as Grams is a powerful witch, demons are going to attach her, and presumably, she is going to protect innocents. We hear in Season 2 that Grams was even the leader of a coven. So why does Victor leave? If he doesn't want his girls growing up with demons, isn't the better solution to sue for custody. One could argue that Grams could use a spell to control the judge's mind, but we can't make that argument because Victor doesn't even try. I'm confused why Grams gets the blunt of the blame for Victor's decisions. I also don't understand the Grams hates Victor rhetoric. In Just Harried the two aren't friendly, but Grams also isn't frothing at the mouth at his attendance. She is angrier in That 70s Episode, but this is presumably much closer to when Victor left Patty since Patty doesn't even know she's pregnant. Of course, emotions will be higher then. I know the show wants a more light-hearted Victor, but they could have done that without blaming Grams and being inconsistent with what they tell us versus what they show us. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7223101
Primal Slayer January 12, 2022 Share January 12, 2022 Speaking of flashbacks, I know there have been rumors that Shannen owned 10% of Charmed and Prue as a whole....which may be the case but I always found it weird how they never used flashbacks to show child Prue. Obviously they cant use pictures of Shannen or flashbacks without paying her but were they really not creative enough to think "we could at least have child Prue and bring back the actress that played her to explore more of the girls childhood" 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7225007
Pearson80 January 12, 2022 Share January 12, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said: Speaking of flashbacks, I know there have been rumors that Shannen owned 10% of Charmed and Prue as a whole....which may be the case but I always found it weird how they never used flashbacks to show child Prue. Obviously they cant use pictures of Shannen or flashbacks without paying her but were they really not creative enough to think "we could at least have child Prue and bring back the actress that played her to explore more of the girls childhood" That would have been awesome and I have always thought that Brad Kern was the reason that Prue was never mentioned after she died other than mischaracterizing her death like Prue dying because she was obsessed with magic. Since that was not the case at all since the bastard wrote her death, she died saving an innocent. Even after the series ended, he was still throwing shade at Prue and Shannen after fans complained about him never having brought Prue back for a couple of episodes as a love letter to her fans.. Edited January 12, 2022 by Pearson80 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7225216
4evaQuez January 12, 2022 Share January 12, 2022 14 hours ago, Primal Slayer said: Speaking of flashbacks, I know there have been rumors that Shannen owned 10% of Charmed and Prue as a whole....which may be the case but I always found it weird how they never used flashbacks to show child Prue. Obviously they cant use pictures of Shannen or flashbacks without paying her but were they really not creative enough to think "we could at least have child Prue and bring back the actress that played her to explore more of the girls childhood" I honestly never even thought of that. Reading your post made me think how I wish Witchstock in Season 6 had been written differently. I know they couldn't get the Patty actress for that episode, so they could have set the episode in the early 80s. Grams with a young Prue, Piper, and Phoebe could have been at the park for some made up festival. Paige's parents could have been there, too, with a young Paige. Demons attack and Paige and Grams must team up to defeat the demons and save the young Power of 4. That would mean rewriting Witchstock into a completely different episode, but I don't think anything of value would be lost. That being said, I don't completely blame Kern. With Paige included, it would seem odd to include episodes exploring the young Prue/Piper/Phoebe dynamic without including Paige. Paige was left out enough; as a Paige fan, I couldn't see me enjoying those episodes. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7225860
Writing Wrongs January 13, 2022 Share January 13, 2022 23 hours ago, Primal Slayer said: Speaking of flashbacks, I know there have been rumors that Shannen owned 10% of Charmed and Prue as a whole....which may be the case but I always found it weird how they never used flashbacks to show child Prue. Obviously they cant use pictures of Shannen or flashbacks without paying her but were they really not creative enough to think "we could at least have child Prue and bring back the actress that played her to explore more of the girls childhood" In an interview with TV Line, Kern said: “I tried like crazy to get her in flashbacks and to have photographs of her on the walls, but what I was told — and I've subsequently been told that this is not the case — by the studio that we would have to pay her per-episode fee, which we couldn't afford, if we were even just going to use a photo of her." What great posts. I know I'm biased because I came to dislike Phoebe and that has transferred on to Alyssa. I just found the show revolved too much around Phoebe, especially after Alyssa became a producer. Her clothes got worse and more revealing. She was always being possessed or turned into some sexy thing (genie, mermaid, Mata Hari), her rotating boyfriends (which were sometimes Alyssa's). They even made Wyatt's birth some weird Phoebe obsession where she couldn't be away from him. Her great advice column from zero experience. Her obsession with getting pregnant. Ugh. I agree that it seemed like separate shows within one show. And I blame the writers or whoever was in charge for truly turning the sisters into horrible people during Season 8. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7227093
Primal Slayer January 13, 2022 Share January 13, 2022 23 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said: In an interview with TV Line, Kern said: “I tried like crazy to get her in flashbacks and to have photographs of her on the walls, but what I was told — and I've subsequently been told that this is not the case — by the studio that we would have to pay her per-episode fee, which we couldn't afford, if we were even just going to use a photo of her." That was Shannen though. This is about child actors portraying young Prue and the OG actress that played her in S1-2. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7227288
Pearson80 January 14, 2022 Share January 14, 2022 On 1/12/2022 at 8:56 PM, Writing Wrongs said: I know I'm biased because I came to dislike Phoebe and that has transferred on to Alyssa. I just found the show revolved too much around Phoebe, especially after Alyssa became a producer. Her clothes got worse and more revealing. She was always being possessed or turned into some sexy thing (genie, mermaid, Mata Hari), her rotating boyfriends (which were sometimes Alyssa's). They even made Wyatt's birth some weird Phoebe obsession where she couldn't be away from him. Her great advice column from zero experience. Her obsession with getting pregnant. Ugh. Same here, Brad Kern destroyed Phoebe with his atrocious writing when he took over the show in season 3. I will always love Rose McGowen for spilling the tea about Alyssa's antics on set giving credence to why Shannen and even Holly Marie did not get along with her in season 3. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7229623
Pearson80 January 14, 2022 Share January 14, 2022 (edited) On 1/10/2022 at 7:07 PM, 4evaQuez said: I love this episode because similarly to Season 4, Piper and Paige solve their problems together. Piper/Paige actually know each other on a personal level. Paige also pushes Piper in a way neither Phoebe or even Prue did. Paige pushes Piper to attempt to be assertive and take charge. When Paige becomes a Nymph, Piper thinks outside the box in a way Paige would to find Paige. Piper and Paige work together to craft a spell together to turn the demon into a tree. Paige allows Piper to grow. Piper allows Paige to have a firm place in the Halliwell family to be weird and creative but still needed by Piper and eventually Piper's sons. Wyatt says Paige is his favorite aunt in Season 7. Chris says Paige is his favorite aunt in Season 6. I love this episode and Piper/Paige; because similar to Piper/Prue, I could actually see them being friends even if they weren't sisters. When Prudence Melinda Halliwell becomes Wyatt Matthew Halliwell, it already feels earned in just a season and a half. Paige does feel as important to Piper as Prue was, but in a very different way. I've been on a lot of Charmed boards were we discuss how Prue's death helped Piper to grow. I think Paige's inclusion in Piper's life was just as important to that growth. While Paige may have fears that she is a Prue replacement in Season 5, I actually think Piper is beyond seeing her as a Prue replacement and simply sees Paige as Piper's sister. I think Prue's death dimmed Piper's happiness abut everything. She became mean bitter whiny nasty and surly. I always got the impression that Piper was just going through the motions by putting on a brave face for everybody because it was expected of her and that a part of her died when Prue died. I always disagreed with the fans who said that Prue's death helped Piper grow. I have no doubt that Constance had big plans for Piper that did not necessitate Prue dying for Piper to excel and grow as a witch, a sister and as a woman, had she been allowed to write her own show.. Damn you Brad Kern! I did like the Piper/Paige dynamic though and the show never seemed to do anything substantial with Piper/Phoebe after Prue died. Piper never confronted Phoebe about choosing evil and Cole over her. Not taking anything away from Paige, but Phoebe was the only family that she had after Prue was killed, how could Phoebe just turn her back on her like she was nothing.. Piper should have had a moment where they were alone and Piper told her this. It was Phoebe's selfishness that cost them Prue. Holly Marie would have knocked it out of the park.. Edited January 14, 2022 by Pearson80 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7229648
Primal Slayer January 15, 2022 Share January 15, 2022 Piper definitely became more bitter as the show went on, stepping into that new older sister/leader role wasnt the best for her. I do have to laugh that Piper was the only sister to never have gone blonde and how the show always had to write it in when they changed their hair. I know it was a major Spelling staple that he hated actresses changing their hair and they freaked out at Alyssa and Rose when they dyed theirs...its not THAT big of a deal. Both characters were established by then. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7231114
Writing Wrongs January 15, 2022 Share January 15, 2022 On 1/13/2022 at 10:09 PM, Pearson80 said: Same here, Brad Kern destroyed Phoebe with his atrocious writing when he took over the show in season 3. I will always love Rose McGowen for spilling the tea about Alyssa's antics on set giving credence to why Shannen and even Holly Marie did not get along with her in season 3. Phoebe was my favorite in Seasons 1 & 2. She was funny, smart and really into helping people and learning the craft. Jumped to the last 2 seasons when none of them want to help people or be The Charmed Ones any more. I understood what Christy was saying even though she was being manipulated. The sisters became selfish and Phoebe started it. Remember when she gave Piper shit about moving out after her and Leo got married? What's the first thing Phoebe did when she married Cole?Move to the penthouse. Even in the last season she kept dropping sly gripes about needing her own place and then she moved out. She butted into Paige's relationship with Richard and was always using her empathy power to act stupidly or inappropriately. Ugh. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7232107
Spartan Girl January 18, 2022 Share January 18, 2022 On 1/14/2022 at 8:42 PM, Primal Slayer said: Piper definitely became more bitter as the show went on, stepping into that new older sister/leader role wasnt the best for her. Yup. If I had to hear her whine about wanting a normal life one more time, I’d tear my hair out. Am I the only one that never liked Victor and thought he got forgiven way too easily for being absent from the sisters’ lives? Prue was the only one willing to hold him accountable, but once she was gone, they just never talked about it. And it was really rich of him to snark on Leo for never being “there” for Piper. Says the man that basically vanished from his daughters’ lives until they were adults! 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7237280
4evaQuez January 18, 2022 Share January 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said: Am I the only one that never liked Victor and thought he got forgiven way too easily for being absent from the sisters’ lives? Prue was the only one willing to hold him accountable, but once she was gone, they just never talked about it. I've made two posts of tirades about the Victor character. I hate how the show wanted to distance him from being a deadbeat and blaming Grams for Victor's decisions. Unfortunately, I think the show would have done this regardless of Prue's presence or absence. In The Good, The Bad, and The Cursed, Prue gives Victor a big hug at the beginning of the episode with a even bigger smile on her face. She even lingers in his arms for several seconds in a very paternal/childlike manner. I could see Shannon wanting a more complicated relationship between the two with a two steps forward, one step backward approach. However, the show seemed committed to having Victor be a "good father" who was driven away by Grams. Piper and Phoebe were always much more forgiving of Victor, especially Phoebe. I could see them wanting to take any relationship they could get from him without holding him accountable for his actions. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7237536
Primal Slayer January 19, 2022 Share January 19, 2022 10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said: Yup. If I had to hear her whine about wanting a normal life one more time, I’d tear my hair out. Am I the only one that never liked Victor and thought he got forgiven way too easily for being absent from the sisters’ lives? Prue was the only one willing to hold him accountable, but once she was gone, they just never talked about it. And it was really rich of him to snark on Leo for never being “there” for Piper. Says the man that basically vanished from his daughters’ lives until they were adults! Their mother died while they were children and their grandmother died when they were young adults, it's very believable that either you have major resentment (Prue) or you overlook the bad because you so desperately want that connection with your parent who is your last living relative outside of your sisters (Piper/Phoebe) 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7238218
andromeda331 January 19, 2022 Share January 19, 2022 On 1/18/2022 at 7:06 AM, Spartan Girl said: Yup. If I had to hear her whine about wanting a normal life one more time, I’d tear my hair out. So would I. Add in her refusing to bind Wyatt's powers despite wanting a normal life. Quote Am I the only one that never liked Victor and thought he got forgiven way too easily for being absent from the sisters’ lives? Prue was the only one willing to hold him accountable, but once she was gone, they just never talked about it. And it was really rich of him to snark on Leo for never being “there” for Piper. Says the man that basically vanished from his daughters’ lives until they were adults! No, I hated that too. He abandoned them before and after their mother died but blames Penny for it all. When he meets Leo all he wants to do is talk about whitelighters. Nothing was ever his fault. I wasn't Prue's biggest fan but I liked that she always held him accountable. I just really hate on TV how many deadbeats or crappy parents get a free pass. Like Rory's dad Christopher. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7239834
Pearson80 January 20, 2022 Share January 20, 2022 (edited) On 1/19/2022 at 5:44 PM, andromeda331 said: No, I hated that too. He abandoned them before and after their mother died but blames Penny for it all. When he meets Leo all he wants to do is talk about whitelighters. Nothing was ever his fault. I wasn't Prue's biggest fan but I liked that she always held him accountable. I just really hate on TV how many deadbeats or crappy parents get a free pass. Like Rory's dad Christopher. I noticed that when Constance wrote Victor she made him a deadbeat but with a point of view in not wanting his daughters to grow up as witches seeing what he saw being married to a powerful witch like Patty. Whereas Kern blamed Grams for Victor not taking responsibility for his daughters. I loved how each sister treated Victor differently that was true to their character when Constance wrote for them. Prue was mean to him and rightfully so. Piper was distant but open to having a relationship with him. Phoebe just wanted her dad in her life no matter what. Phoebe never judged him for his failures. Her empathy and her ability to not judge others too harshly is what I loved the most about Phoebe before Kern destroyed her in season 3. Edited January 21, 2022 by Pearson80 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7242394
andromeda331 January 22, 2022 Share January 22, 2022 On 1/20/2022 at 10:49 AM, Pearson80 said: I noticed that when Constance wrote Victor she made him a deadbeat but with a point of view in not wanting his daughters to grow up as witches seeing what he saw being married to a powerful witch like Patty. Whereas Kern blamed Grams for Victor not taking responsibility for his daughters. I loved how each sister treated Victor differently that was true to their character when Constance wrote for them. Prue was mean to him and rightfully so. Piper was distant but open to having a relationship with him. Phoebe just wanted her dad in her life no matter what. Phoebe never judged him for his failures. Her empathy and her ability to not judge others too harshly is what I loved the most about Phoebe before Kern destroyed her in season 3. I agree it fits with their personalities which makes sense. No matter how much I wish all three would hold them accountable. That was the reason Phoebe took off in the pilot to go find their dad. It was probably a mixture of never having a parent but also Phoebe made a lot of mistakes growing up that probably made it easier for her to forgive him or think she understood him. Victor was really the only other screw up in the family. She always fought with Prue and at least from the Prewitch episode Grams and Phoebe had issues. Also Victor didn't expect anything from her. While Grams and her sisters did. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7245754
Pearson80 January 25, 2022 Share January 25, 2022 (edited) I thought that the source as an antagonist should have become more malevolent and sinister as the sisters became more powerful individually and collectively. It was disappointing how he became just a regular demon in season 4. We should never have seen him in person in season 3, he should have remained unseen and deadly to the sisters. I think that season 5 should have been the season for him to make an appearance. The same thing happened in season 7 with Zankou, he started off great and he let his ego get in the way. He got Phoebe's premonition power and access to the book of shadows. Why didn't he just vanquish the sisters when he had the chance. Another thing that bothered me was the fact that demons, warlocks and other evil entities could just go into the manor with no problem. Why didn't the sisters namely Phoebe cast a protection spell around their home? Their lives would have been so easier. My unpopular opinion is that I hated the fan favorite "all hell breaks loose". I liked it as a concept but the execution left a lot to be desired. Shaks should not have been able to harm Prue and Piper so easily. Had he gone after Phoebe, it would have made sense since she had no active power to hurt him or wound him at least.. I know that she had levitation, but it was a useless power. She should have had a better useful defensive power to defend herself, not to mention her premonitions should have advanced in season 3. The sisters original powers never advanced after season 2, Telekinesis and freezing had so much potential. I did love seeing Prue and Piper using their offensive powers when Skaks attacked them outside of the manor, leading to their exposure. It makes me wonder how powerful they would have been had Prue continued on the show. Edited January 25, 2022 by Pearson80 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7251510
4evaQuez January 29, 2022 Share January 29, 2022 (edited) Soooooooo...Season 6 of Charmed. From my many years of Charmed fandom, this seems to be the only controversial season of Charmed. People either seem to truly hate this season or truly love it. This also seems to be the only season that really brings out the factions and hostility among Charmed viewers. That being said, I guess I'll go ahead and state my side of this contentious argument just so everyone knows where I stand. I hate Season 6 of Charmed. I sometimes waffle between this and Season 8 as my least favorite season of Charmed. I think that's for five reasons. 1. This is the first season of Charmed that truly disappointed me in real time. 2. Chris is by far my least favorite character in the series 3. I hate the inclusion of Wyatt into the main storyline, and the added mythos that he, somehow, is more powerful than the Charmed ones. That brings me to point 4 4. This season outright scoffs and assaults the very foundational premise of Charmed. Piper, Phoebe, and Paige somehow become supporting players in their own show. 5. Which brings me to point 5, the almost nonexistent character development for the sisters' relationship. This is the first season where I struggle to think of any major bonding moment between the three. The bonding moments shift to Leo/Chris to the detriment of Piper/Phoebe/Paige. The main relationship this season also seems to be Leo/Chris even before the audience, the characters, or even the writers know they are father/son. Technically, I could add the nonsensical writing as point 6, but I'll stop here. Major Bonding Moment: I'll start here. P3 becomes much less of a setting in this season. While I understand some Charmed fans never particularly cared for P3, I did love that it allowed for us to see the sisters in a different setting which naturally changed the dynamics of the relationships and the expectations for their interactions. Their home demands a certain formality and conformity of their expected familial roles. P3 allows for a casual bonding and more flexibility in those roles. In Season 2, we see the sisters dancing with each other in a way that just couldn't be done in the manor. in Season 5, we see the sisters sleeping on each other peacefully as a party happened around them. Again, I can't imagine that being done at home since they would be the hosts of such a party. There's very little P3 this season, and I honestly don't know if all three characters are even there together. As a result, the only "big moment" between the sisters is in Chris Crossed. This occurs when Piper/Phoebe/Paige discuss the sisters moving out, so they can all explore their individual paths. I actually don't have the issue with that moment that a lot of Charmed fans have. Hear me out. 1. Piper is married and divorced and the mother of a small child. She must also be in her 30s by now. Phoebe is either in her 30s or very close to it. Paige is in her late 20s. I do think that's a natural conversation to have, and it's a conversation that would have occurred even if Prue was there. Technically, a version of this conversation was held with less stakes in Prewitched. I also don't have an issue with the idea that Season 6 was to explore the sisters' separate lives, and I think this moment and conversation could have been a beautiful moment if it were the climax of such an exploration. I actually still think it's a beautiful moment and well acted. My problem is that it's not the climax. It just simply occurs. Chris Crossed isn't even an episode that's about the sisters. It's about Chris and somewhat about Wyatt. 2. The episodes before aren't actually exploring how the sisters' individual lives are separating them or impacting innocent lives. I guess an argument could be made for My Three Witches. I don't know if separate lives is actually the reason they were placed in those separate dimensions. Chris was directly at fault for that. On the other hand, I can at least see how someone can make a strong argument for that episode being about their separate lives and how it impacts them as sisters. However, when separate lives come up in this season, it's mostly Piper/Phoebe being upset with Paige for going off on her own. Loves a Witch and Soul Survivor would be the two examples. The Power of Three Blondes is another strong episode about the importance of sisterhood. However, the Stillman sisters' dynamics are explored more than the Halliwell dynamics. I guess someone can make an argument that living separate lives is why the Stillman sisters almost succeeded in their plan. I guess I would somewhat agree as their professional lives is what got the Halliwell sisters out of the house. I still would argue that there's not really an exploration of the sisters' individual lives in that episode and how it impacts them. There's no discussion about how they are drifting apart. There's no discussion about how its impacting their powers. There's no discussion about the loss they feel not being able to depend on each other. There are also very few episodes with actual innocents that the sisters must protect. Loves a Witch, Soul Survivor, Little Monsters are the episodes about innocents. In two of those episodes, Paige is the only one who actually cares. In Little Monsters, Piper is the one who cares. Again, there's no exploration of how the changing dynamics affects how they operate as a team. So the moment in Chris Cross is great in isolation, but it ultimately comes without buildup and leads nowhere. After that moment, we get some discussion of Phoebe or Paige missing vanquishes. This is odd in Paige's case, but Phoebe had been missing vanquishes since Season 5. We get a "funny" moment with Phoebe/Paige discovering their rooms have been repurposed. However, it mostly doesn't even seem like they left the manor. The two still spend a lot of time there. In Used Karma, Phoebe/Jason and Paige/Richard are having a double date there even though none of them live in the house at the time. Richard literally has his own mansion, and I assume Jason has a condo. Piper isn't even there; she's in the underworld. Phoebe just lives there again with no explanation after the end of the Jason relationship. The same happens with Paige. There's no big moment with the three celebrating living under the same roof again, how it impacts their bond or their powers, or even Piper having a moment in her room where she hears Phoebe and Paige arguing, and she smiles because she's just happy to have them in the manor again. I actually do think an exploration of their separate lives could have worked this season, but that's not what the season is about. This season isn't even about them. That brings me to... Chris Halliwell - No offense to the actor. I'm certain Drew Fuller is a nice man in real life. I also never watched Army Wives or any other work he's done. This is not an attack on his personal character or his craft because I do not know either well enough to make an assessment. That being said, on Charmed, I find the actor to just be terrible. His character is whiny, bitchy, poorly written, lacks inflection for proper emotions, inconsistent, has a perpetually blank countenance, and is given absolutely no motivation for half the season. The actor is obviously lost and so is the character. For a show with only 5 main characters, the show does a terrible job of actually connecting Chris to the main characters. Making him Piper's son is supposed to be all the connection we need as the audience and the characters need. However, Chris spends no time actually getting to know the sisters. Most of his important moments as a character are with Leo, Victor, Wyatt, and Bianca. In It's a Bad, Bad, Bad, Bad World, Phoebe laments that she and Paige barely know him, and they are losing him before they get a chance to. This is a statement I agree with, but why do the Charmed ones not know Chris after an entire year. I almost said after living with him an entire year, but the show never actually makes it clear if Chris lives with them or not. In Forget Me Not, he seems to be sleeping in the storage room at the club. I never realized this, but Paige and Chris don't even seem to like each other by the end of the season. In Spin City, A Wrong Day, Witch Wars and Bad World, they spend a lot of time sniping at each other. In A Wrong Day, she asks Chris do they even like each other in the future. Granted, that could be Paige joking, but they are constantly opposing each other. This brings up something else I realized I disliked about Chris in this rewatch. Leo/Chris often team up against Paige. So now, we have Piper/Phoebe against Paige and Leo/Chris against Paige during disagreements. Also, just because of HMC's real life pregnancy, we actually don't get a chance to see Piper/Chris' relationship grow. Piper seems mostly indifferent to him in the beginning of the season. Of course, Piper seems indifferent to most people by this point in the series. In Prince Charmed, she outright loses trust in him. She doesn't spend any significant time with him between Used Karma and Courtship. So by the time she knows Chris is her son in Hyde School Reunion, the show focuses on Chris' relationship with her mostly absent father, which confounds me. I know the show tries to explain Chris' hesitation to building a relationship with Piper in this episode, but Chris seems to barely care about Piper before this moment. He had a bigger response to meeting Paige the first time in Oh My Goddess, than any response or interaction he's had with Piper. I just think it was important for the show to allow us to see their relationship grow. It also doesn't help that Piper is completely absent from the moment of Chris' death. His death is mostly between Leo and Paige. Even Daryll gets a bigger reaction than Piper. Again, I understand HMC's real life pregnancy impacted a lot of these decisions, but it doesn't help how I see the characters' relationship. Lastly, I just don't think the actor can handle even the basics. I cut him some slack as it's obvious the show has no idea what it's doing with Chris, and Chris often comes off as an idiot. He often must state some "thing" from the future at an inopportune time to raise the stakes. In Witch Wars, he "remembers" that Wyatt turns evil before he's born. Isn't this crucial information. Why would you just forget this? Again, I know the writers are making things up as they go along, but the character suffers for it. The actor also never gives these emotions any type of gravitas. I think he's trying but he comes off disengaged and disconnected. Somehow the entire season ends up revolving around his future, and I truly hate how his inclusion changes the Leo character. Leo: Because this season is the Piper Halliwell family drama, sans Piper Halliwell, Leo somewhat becomes the main protagonist. Based off my previous post, I'm sure you've ascertained that I do not think the actor is particularly good nor do I like Leo. With HMC's real life pregnancy, she's an extra in her own story. Leo must take the lead. While I like, It's a Bad World, I've always hated that Leo is the person who commits the ultimate evil to save both worlds. I hate how Leo is suddenly super powerful with lightening abilities, and he randomly has Paige's telekinetic orbing ability. While I do think Krause does a better job, I also just hate how this season and half of next season centers around him and his decisions. I watch for Piper/Phoebe/Paige. A year and a half of the Leo drama is just not what I care about. Leo, Wyatt, and Chris ultimately become their own Charmed ones. Not literally of course. But the show changes course in a way that it does not redirect from until later Season 7 and Paige and Phoebe suffer from it. Paige and Phoebe - Because of HMC's real life pregnancy, the two share a lot of time together. I honestly did not mean to bring up HMC's pregnancy as much as I have so far. Anyway. I know the actresses have issues with each other, then and now. That being said, I actually don't think it's obvious on screen. I think the two still have great chemistry as their characters. Love's a Witch is actually one of my favorite episodes of the season. I think this episode and Witch Wars do the best job at showing what the Phoebe/Paige dynamic should have been. Similar to late Season 4, the two work best at odds with each other. The show wanted the Prue/Phoebe dynamic with Piper/Paige, and it correctly realized that dynamic didn't work in early Season 4. However, late Season 4 showed that Phoebe/Paige should naturally butt heads. Both are stubborn. While in Used Karma, the shows seems to think Phoebe is conflict avoidant. I couldn't disagree more. Phoebe has no issue with leaning into conflict similar to Prue and Paige. Piper is the conflict avoidant one, which is why she just is not a good choice for such a relationship. Similar to the Piper/Paige dynamic, which I discussed in my Season 4 and Season 5 posts, Paige disrupts the natural order. She is the youngest sister, but she's also the most natural leader. In a lot of ways, Phoebe is still the baby sister personality wise in the new dynamic. I thought Love's a Witch and Witch Wars explored the possible conflict that could arise between Phoebe/Paige as a result. Phoebe, on some level, I think wants Paige to be the young screwup that she(Phoebe) used to be; this way Phoebe can be the Prue to Paige's Phoebe. In Witch Wars, she tells Paige she(Paige) is the baby sister when Paige shares legitimate concerns about Phoebe's lack of an active power. This is obviously a power move on Phoebe's part. Phoebe outright calls Paige her mom at one point in this disagreement. We know Phoebe has issues with authoritative figures like Grams and Prue, which Paige has become for Phoebe. In A Wrong Day, Phoebe expresses some resentment that Mr. Wrong underestimates her, and Phoebe shares some pain because she understands that Paige underestimates her. In this same episode, Phoebeis moved to here from Mr. Right that Paige looks up to her as a role model.(I'm honestly not sure if that's true, but I guess Hyde School Reunion can be evidence for that being true. Although, I would argue that's Paige just wanting to understand Phoebe more than her looking up to Phoebe. I guess both could be true. In Witch Wars, Paige underestimating Phoebe comes up again, and Phoebe again spends a great deal of the episode expressing her displeasure - I think it almost borderlines on rage - that Paige thinks so little of her. In Sword in the City, Phoebe passively aggressively attacks Paige's relationship with Richard because Paige again is showing a lack of little sister respect for Phoebe and her opinion. In It's a Bad World, Paige is the one Piper calls when she goes into labor and not Phoebe. Both Phoebes actually seem hurt by this. I said in my last post, that I would like to find Phoebe's sisterly role in her dynamic with Piper and/or Paige. While I'm still not sure how to define Piper/Phoebe, I actually do think there's something deep with Phoebe/Paige. I think the bigger issue is how the show frames their dynamic. Most of these are framed as comedic relief and wacky hijinks. Witch Wars ends with Paige stabbing Phoebe as Phoebe is deriding her about seeing her as weak. The show went for wacky hijinks instead of the much more interesting exploration of Phoebe still being seen as the weakest and by extension, the youngest sister. Paige, like Prue, is the sister everyone depends on in emergencies. Piper is the oldest and the most stable. Phoebe, even with all her success as Ask Phoebe, is still the one people feel they have to protect. This even includes little sister Paige. On some level, I wonder if that's why Phoebe got so involved in Paige/Richard's relationship. It makes Paige the screwup and not Phoebe. However, unlike Phoebe/Cole, Paige actually is responsible enough to bind Richard's powers and leave Richard to have a peaceful life. Paige is the one to push Phoebe to tell the truth to Jason in Used Karma. If this show took those actions in a more serious and grounded light, I think there could have been a lot of character and relationship dynamics explored. Sadly they don't make that decision. Gideon and Wyatt - I think the thing that angers me most about this season is that I do think the idea of a trusted loved one turning Wyatt evil is rich. I just don't think the show did a good job showing Gideon as a trusted loved one. He's introduced in episode 14 of a 23 episode season. We, the audience, discover his nefariousness in episode 16. We never see Gideon and Wyatt alone until the season finale when Gideon is attempting to kill Wyatt. Wyatt also immediately puts up his shield when alone with Gideon indicating that Wyatt does not trust Gideon. This also implies the two have not spent a lot of time alone as Wyatt does not put up his shield with that one preschool teacher in Witch Wars when she takes him for a walk. This is even after Piper accuses the teacher of somehow mistreating Wyatt. The actor also plays Gideon in a dastardly way that makes it entirely too obvious that he has schemes up his sleeve. I also hate that Gideon opens the door for the elders to somewhat be the big bads for the first half of Season 7. Gideon and Leo also change the role of the elders and their abilities. In Season 5, it's outright stated that they only have mental based powers - levitation is seen as a mental based power for whatever reason - and they do not have offensive powers nor can they orb. Now, every elder can orb, Gideon has telekinesis, they can become invisible, they apparently can heal - the sisters suggest to Darryll that Gideon can heal his wounds - they can shoot lightning, they can telekinetically orb, and they are supposed to be precogs as seen in Witches in Tights. They can apparently create time portals at will now since several episodes mention whether they will send Chris back to the future or not. With that much power, why do the elders even need the Charmed ones? The Charmed Ones - Which bring me to another thing I dislike about the season. The Charmed ones seem like the least powerful witches of all time this season. Wyatt as a small infant has displayed: orbing, telekinesis, telekinetic orbing, healing, a force field, a blinking explosion power, thought projection, bringing the dead back to life, switching powers, the owner of Excalibur, I'm honestly not sure if I listed all the powers he's shown at like one year old. Richard, a regular male witch, has a ton of powers including teleportation, energy balls, telekinesis, and some power to drain pipes. The Stillman sisters seem to have telekinesis, shapeshifting and conjuring. Demons seems to have an unlimited supply of powers this season, there's a Warlock who can freeze good witches. Chris has telekinesis, orbing, an ability to move people between worlds, etc. What happened to witches having a singular power. I don't think it was ever outright stated, but it seemed witches had a singular ability. It seemed that Melinda Warren was the only witch to have three powers, but even then, her descendants each inherited a singular ability. It seemed that the Charmed ones growing new abilities was a Charmed one thing. Now, every witch seems to have three abilities, minimum. Telekinesis seems to be a really common power all of a sudden. The Charmed ones have somehow become the least impressive magical beings on their own show. I promise I tried to post that as two different replies, but it merged into one. ETA: I tried to post three different replies. Anyway, I don't want this to be even longer. I do have a wish list for what I wish Season 6 was. However, I'll wait a few days, as I don't want this to become even more unruly. I apologize for the long post, I really did send this as two / now three different posts. Edited January 29, 2022 by 4evaQuez 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7260271
Pearson80 January 29, 2022 Share January 29, 2022 (edited) 48 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said: The Charmed Ones - Which bring me to another thing I dislike about the season. The Charmed ones seem like the least powerful witches of all time this season. Wyatt as a small infant has displayed: orbing, telekinesis, telekinetic orbing, healing, a force field, a blinking explosion power, thought projection, bringing the dead back to life, switching powers, the owner of Excalibur, I'm honestly not sure if I listed all the powers he's shown at like one year old. Richard, a regular male witch, has a ton of powers including teleportation, energy balls, telekinesis, and some power to drain pipes. The Stillman sisters seem to have telekinesis, shapeshifting and conjuring. Demons seems to have an unlimited supply of powers this season, there's a Warlock who can freeze good witches. Chris has telekinesis, orbing, an ability to move people between worlds, etc. What happened to witches having a singular power. I don't think it was ever outright stated, but it seemed witches had a singular ability. It seemed that Melinda Warren was the only witch to have three powers, but even then, her descendants each inherited a singular ability. It seemed that the Charmed ones growing new abilities was a Charmed one thing. Now, every witch seems to have three abilities, minimum. Telekinesis seems to be a really common power all of a sudden. The Charmed ones have somehow become the least impressive magical beings on their own show. Thank you for saying this about the charmed ones and it pains me what could have been under Constance. She made it pretty clear that the original power of 3 was going to be the most powerful witches of all time. Brad Kern did his best to make them so weak and ineffectual. I also hated how he turned Melinda into Wyatt. It was really evident that he wanted the male characters to be the lead and not the sisters. It really started in season 3 with the arrival of Cole. 48 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said: Leo: Because this season is the Piper Halliwell family drama, sans Piper Halliwell, Leo somewhat becomes the main protagonist. Based off my previous post, I'm sure you've ascertained that I do not think the actor is particularly good nor do I like Leo. With HMC's real life pregnancy, she's an extra in her own story. Leo must take the lead. While I like, It's a Bad World, I've always hated that Leo is the person who commits the ultimate evil to save both worlds. I hate how Leo is suddenly super powerful with lightening abilities, and he randomly has Paige's telekinetic orbing ability. While I do think Krause does a better job, I also just hate how this season and half of next season centers around him and his decisions. I watch for Piper/Phoebe/Paige. A year and a half of the Leo drama is just not what I care about. Leo, Wyatt, and Chris ultimately become their own Charmed ones. Not literally of course. But the show changes course in a way that it does not redirect from until later Season 7 and Paige and Phoebe suffer from it. I have never cared for Leo. However, he was always much better as a background character in season 1 and season 2 with the sisters driving their own stories and defeating their adversaries on their own. Leo became more prominent in season 3 and his presence became obnoxious in season 6 and in season 7 it was all about Leo's pain because he displaced the sisters as the leads of the show. I always loved how Constance always had the sisters working in tandem to solve their demonic and warlock problems. In season 1 in the episode the 4th sister, the sisters vanquished Kali by first consulting the book of shadows, not Leo and the useless Elders as they started doing in season 3. While fighting with Kali, Phoebe figured out how to defeat her she told Piper to freeze a possessed Aviva freeing her. Prue moved her into the mirror and Phoebe gave her the death blow by shattering her reflection. That is how the charmed ones should have been working together relying solely on each other their instincts ingenuity powers and the book of shadows. Edited January 29, 2022 by Pearson80 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7260327
andromeda331 January 30, 2022 Share January 30, 2022 8 hours ago, Pearson80 said: Thank you for saying this about the charmed ones and it pains me what could have been under Constance. She made it pretty clear that the original power of 3 was going to be the most powerful witches of all time. Brad Kern did his best to make them so weak and ineffectual. I also hated how he turned Melinda into Wyatt. It was really evident that he wanted the male characters to be the lead and not the sisters. It really started in season 3 with the arrival of Cole. I have never cared for Leo. However, he was always much better as a background character in season 1 and season 2 with the sisters driving their own stories and defeating their adversaries on their own. Leo became more prominent in season 3 and his presence became obnoxious in season 6 and in season 7 it was all about Leo's pain because he displaced the sisters as the leads of the show. I always loved how Constance always had the sisters working in tandem to solve their demonic and warlock problems. In season 1 in the episode the 4th sister, the sisters vanquished Kali by first consulting the book of shadows, not Leo and the useless Elders as they started doing in season 3. While fighting with Kali, Phoebe figured out how to defeat her she told Piper to freeze a possessed Aviva freeing her. Prue moved her into the mirror and Phoebe gave her the death blow by shattering her reflection. That is how the charmed ones should have been working together relying solely on each other their instincts ingenuity powers and the book of shadows. The show really lost something when it switched to Leo and Wyatt. I agree they turned the show from the sisters to them. It stinks since the show was about three sisters. I really wish they kept it that way. Through marriage, kids and whatever. It was nice and very rare to have three sisters that were so powerful and from a very powerful female line. That's what I tuned into watch and what I loved about the show. It was fun to watch the sisters figure out things together along. It really lost something there. @4evaQuez I really do like your observations and opinions on each season. I can never tell with Chris if Drew Fuller is a bad actor or because Chris is all over the place. Nothing he does makes any sense for his mission to save Wyatt from turning evil or relationships or lack of relationships with the sisters. They are his mother and aunts and you'd never really know it before or after the reveal. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7260947
Writing Wrongs February 3, 2022 Share February 3, 2022 On 1/25/2022 at 12:41 AM, Pearson80 said: I thought that the source as an antagonist should have become more malevolent and sinister as the sisters became more powerful individually and collectively. It was disappointing how he became just a regular demon in season 4. What never made sense to me was "Deja Vu All Over Again". At various times 1 or 2 sisters died, effectively breaking the Power of Three. So why keep rewinding? Yet in Charmed Again, The Source says with one sister dead, The Power of Three was broken. On 1/29/2022 at 1:54 PM, 4evaQuez said: Phoebe is still the baby sister personality wise in the new dynamic. Because she is still utterly self absorbed. And it is quite disturbing that she and Paige trick demons into murdering a HUMAN in Hyde School Reunion. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7270491
Primal Slayer February 3, 2022 Share February 3, 2022 48 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said: What never made sense to me was "Deja Vu All Over Again". At various times 1 or 2 sisters died, effectively breaking the Power of Three. So why keep rewinding? Yet in Charmed Again, The Source says with one sister dead, The Power of Three was broken. TCO were still new to the world and probably thought having even 1 still alive would be a threat. After various years and seeing how their connection works, they grew to know that all 3 were needed. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7270566
Pearson80 February 3, 2022 Share February 3, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said: What never made sense to me was "Deja Vu All Over Again". At various times 1 or 2 sisters died, effectively breaking the Power of Three. So why keep rewinding? Yet in Charmed Again, The Source says with one sister dead, The Power of Three was broken. Remember Prue vanquished that demon who was a cop twice during the time loop and his ego could not handle it. Tempus kept on egging him on to vanquish Prue because she was the strongest. It was not the source who was doing that, it was Tempus was working on behalf of him. I loved how useful Phoebe was in this episode because she was the one that figured out that they were in a time loop because of her premonitions. Edited February 3, 2022 by Pearson80 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7270795
Spartan Girl February 4, 2022 Share February 4, 2022 (edited) I really wish they hadn’t made up with Darryl: he was a total ass at the end of season 6/beginning of season 7. If you don’t want to be involved in the magical community anymore, fine, but don’t whine about “not wanting to pick a side” when you’re helping Sheridan just to cover your own ass. Edited February 6, 2022 by Spartan Girl Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7273388
Primal Slayer February 4, 2022 Share February 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said: I really wish they hadn’t made up with Darryl: he was a total ass at the end of season 7/beginning of season 8. If you don’t want to be involved in the magical community anymore, fine, but don’t whine about “not wanting to pick a side” when you’re helping Sheridan just to cover your own ass. They did steal his soul without his permission so....I think he had a right to grow bitter towards them. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7273590
4evaQuez February 6, 2022 Share February 6, 2022 (edited) What I wish Season 6 was in retrospect: It's so funny watching these episodes more than a decade after their original airing because I'm noticing things I never noticed previously. Also, because I know where Season 7 and Season 8 are going, it makes me see potential were previously I didn't. While watching Season 6, I realized this may be the most heavy witch season beside from Season 8. In Season 6, we not only get the Halliwell sisters, but we get two long-term male witches for the first time. I know we got Max in Season 1 and the kid with Thought Projection in Season 5, but I think this is the first time we get recurring adult male witches. We get two witch families outside the Halliwell family. The Stillman sisters. They also have some abilities the Halliwell sisters don't have like spying using some type of black bile. They also made some type of perfume potion that grants teleportation. We also get the two warring families from the episode that introduces Richard. We learn that they are creating outright plagues via witchcraft. Richard's family has an entire potion room, and Richard seems to know a lot more about the craft than the sisters do. This is seen in Sword and the City. We get the two Phoenix witches from Chris Crossed. They have a grimoire and can reconstitute. They also have some cool infection type power. Technically, we learn that Piper can blow up witches with her powers as both witches blow up, but Bianca does not freeze later in the same episode. (The show can't seem to decide if Bianca is evil, i.e. having a grimoire instead of a Book of Shadows, or good, i.e. good witches don't freeze. For some reason, they can also shimmer. In Witchstock, we learn about a gathering of covens, and it's described as the most powerful gathering of witches at that time. In Witch Wars, we learn that witches are being targeted, one with pyrokinesis was recently killed. The innocent of the episode was a nonmagical witch with an amulet. Technically, there's Magic School, but I don't actually know what the children are supposed to be. I assume at least some are supposed to be witches; although, that's never really explained. For example, they say one is a conjuror. Is that what he is or is that just his power? "Piper" does freeze all the teenagers, but the show is so inconsistent with abilities who knows if that even means anything. Watching the season made me wish this season was about the Warren legacy. Technically, all the ingredients are there. Witchstock could be an episode about Grams. It outright states that she is the Halliwell/Warren witch that added the most to the Book of Shadows. We also know Grams did a lot with covens. Some episodes that explored other Halliwell/Warren witches of the past could have been explored. We would randomly hear about past Warren/Halliwell witches, like the one from Season One's episode Which Prue is it, Anyway. We here about some ancestor who also had telekinesis that she channeled through her hands. This is before Prue learned to do the same thing. I would have loved episodes that explored their past lives as Warren/Halliwell witches. As I'm typing this out, an episode that actually showed when their line made that switch in their name could have been wonderful. Paige also never met Melinda. Maybe Melinda's daughter could have been Paige's first past life. I also would have liked an episode where an evil Warren witch is in possession of the Book of Shadows and the Warren cousins (Piper, Phoebe, and Paige's past lives) have to get the book from her. I want this mostly because Bride and Gloom showed that there are evil spells in the Book of Shadows. Someone had to write those spells, and I would like to see how the book changes depending on whether the Warren possessor is good or evil. (Technically we could have seen this in Chris Cross since Wyatt as the oldest Halliwell should be the possessor and thus the book should be evil. Who knows at this point? I'm certain the writers didn't.) In the present, I would have loved if the show allowed the sisters to explore more magical witch families. The setup is already there with 4 potential witch families that could have taught them new things to incorporate into their magic. I could easily see Paige starting a coven. That would have been much better than the temp job situation. Then we have the future with Chris and Wyatt. If the season is about exploring the Warren/Halliwell line instead of just Piper's family, Paige and Phoebe can also be more easily incorporated. The Phoebe wants a baby storyline would even make more sense if it's about making sure she raises her children to not turn evil like her current self did, her past self did, and her nephew's future self will. The stakes are about whether Phoebe's child will turn evil and how that will impact the Warren/Halliwell line and not just impregnating Phoebe. Can you imagine if Wyatt and Phoebe's child is evil in the future? That should have been a major concern for Phoebe considering the last time she was pregnant. The Paige coven storyline also makes sense since Paige is adopted. I could see her wanting to share her lessons with all future witches and not just wanting to stick with her bloodline. It also connects with her social worker interest. For me, Paige in Magic School didn't work because she was too isolated. Paige as a leader of a witch coven works because she's still a part of the real world. Piper is harder to incorporate because she doesn't seem like she'll be as interested. However, the coven allows for a place Wyatt can be offscreen, and she could connect with another witch practitioner who is a mother. (This mother could be the past evil Warren who is now a super distant cousin to the Halliwell family). I would like if the big bad was a mage. In Charmed terms, a mage could have been a super powerful witch. He/She is after Wyatt for some grudge against Grams. They decide the best way to get revenge is to steal Wyatt and turn him and the Warren legacy evil. For Charmed to have lasted for 8 seasons, the show didn't do a great job of explaining its mythos. This includes witches who were the show's four main characters. Even more if we include Chris and Christy. An entire season dedicated to witchcraft would have been wonderful. Random aside: Watching this season, I also realized Grams is correct about men in the Charmed verse. I'm certain this wasn't intentional, but Cole, Wyatt, Leo, Richard all went mad because they had great powers. Chris killed and endangered innocent people before the show decided he was Piper's son. Gideon was willing to kill a toddler. Sam became a two time failed whitelighter. Leo became a failed whitelighter and a failed elder and a failed avatar. Coop is willing to let innocent people die because he's too busy making out with Phoebe in Season 8. Grams isn't exactly wrong. Edited February 6, 2022 by 4evaQuez 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7275639
Primal Slayer February 6, 2022 Share February 6, 2022 That definitely would've been a much more interesting season and it is a shame that they didn't think to do something like that. Season 1 brought us Melinda, S2, the cousins, S3 Charlotte, they were filling in the gaps little by little. We know about Brianna Warren who was the strongest Warren telekinetic. The Warren line had a lot of story potential and I always found it weird that it seemingly stopped after S3. After Prue died they basically said F-it now that Paige was in the picture. She would've totally interested in finding out about her Warren lineage. I'm rewatching S3 for the first time since it was remastered (I refuse to watch the episodes on Peacock since I like the OG music) and the fight scene in The Honeymoon's Over is probably one of my favorites. It was very rare we got to see all 3 sisters in physical fights at the same time and they stayed pretty true to their styles. Piper is on the defensive for most of it with the police baton, just trying not to die. Phoebe is fighting 2 "demons" at once and since its still relatively new, they allow her levitation to be put into her style. Prue is punching and using her TK to deflect fireballs. All very fun. Not to mention that I thoroughly enjoyed the Prue/Phoebe dynamic while Piper is MIA. I wish we could've got some flashbacks to them in between S2/3 as the dynamic power of 2 and Phoebe dealing with Prues obession with the Triad. It's a fun season power wise as well since everyone is trying new things with their powers. Prue is trying to use her TK in her astral form, Piper is learning she can selectively freeze certain body parts, Phoebe is...flying sometimes. I know that Alyssa really wanted Phoebe to have an active power and really liked flight from S2 finale but I wish they hadn't given into her wishes to incorporate it full time. I know levitation is the most controversial power in the show since it doesnt really pair well with Premonitions but it is funny that Phoebe went from having the cheapest power to getting the most expensive power and of course it got phased out as the show went along. But they could've been more creative in her 2nd power. Also a shame when they allow her premintions to really advance in S5 it is quickly forgotten about and not used. I just noticed that Daryl is largely absent in the middle of S3. They had seemed to set him up to be buddy buddy with Leo and then he just is nowhere to be found. Though looking at Wiki, after S1 coming in at 13 appearances, he is reduced to roughly 7-8 episodes/season before being entirely written off and forgotten about in S8. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/103784-charmed-general-discussion/page/2/#findComment-7275906
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