S02.E14: Innocence

[Loandbehold]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I mean, yes, vampires probably don't sweat so much and the shirt ended up getting washed pretty thoroughly by the sprinklers during the fight with Buffy, anyhow.   But still. Classy vampires change their clothes; I'm just saying.

He would have, but he hadn't just taken a high school girl's virginity and run screaming into the alley.

[Halting Hex]

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MARK WARD:  Can we just mention that Joyce didn't know what her daughter had done for her birthday, didn't want to sing "Happy Birthday", and couldn't bother to get a proper cake?

Well, sure, when you put it that way, lol.  But still…a cupcake, two days late*, might not seem so impressive, but on a scale of "Joyce Summers" to "Actual Decent Parent", it's not that bad.  I mean, at least it's something.

(And also, the "Happy Birthday" issue was because the song was still in copyright back then, and you had to pay big royalty $$$ to use it on TV.  They used to make Big Brother contestants sing "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow", which made zero sense.)

*—Buffy's actual birthday was the night Angel took her virginity.  The next night, she cried herself to sleep, and this is the night after that one.

Of course, the part where Joyce missed Buffy crying herself to sleep last night doesn't exactly make Joyce look so great, either.  That must be some art gallery, open 24/7 or whatever…

A reactor named Najae notes that Buffy doesn't seem terribly concerned about Her Precious Angel standing right next to the guy she's about to blow to smithereens with the rocket launcher.  Obviously, this can be filed under "Buffy read the script", but I guess in the moment, she really thought she was going to be able to kill Angel.  It was only later, when faced with the more intimate and close-up opportunity to stake him, that she flinched.  Hmm.

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, sure, when you put it that way, lol.  But still…a cupcake, two days late*, might not seem so impressive, but on a scale of "Joyce Summers" to "Actual Decent Parent", it's not that bad.  I mean, at least it's something.

(And also, the "Happy Birthday" issue was because the song was still in copyright back then, and you had to pay big royalty $$$ to use it on TV.  They used to make Big Brother contestants sing "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow", which made zero sense.)

*—Buffy's actual birthday was the night Angel took her virginity.  The next night, she cried herself to sleep, and this is the night after that one.

Of course, the part where Joyce missed Buffy crying herself to sleep last night doesn't exactly make Joyce look so great, either.  That must be some art gallery, open 24/7 or whatever…

A reactor named Najae notes that Buffy doesn't seem terribly concerned about Her Precious Angel standing right next to the guy she's about to blow to smithereens with the rocket launcher.  Obviously, this can be filed under "Buffy read the script", but I guess in the moment, she really thought she was going to be able to kill Angel.  It was only later, when faced with the more intimate and close-up opportunity to stake him, that she flinched.  Hmm.

I like Mark and the boys but I love the Buffy/Joyce scene at the end of this ep, one of my favourite in all of Buffy, 

[Halting Hex]

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SPIKE:  Now it's four against one, and those are the kind of odds I like to play!

Er, Spike?  Not to bring you down, bro…but you're half-fried and in a wheelchair, on account of how Buffy dropped an entire flaming church on your head.  I'm not really sure you should be giving yourself the same value as Angel or the Judge right now.  Just saying.

Given that the climax of the ep sees the other three going to the mall without Spike, and his having to hide in the shadows when the Scoobs come to the Factory, it does seem a bit…premature.  I'm just saying.

[lembergwatcher]

Come on... It's Spike you're talking about. The guy's just in his usual "I'm so full of shit" mode.

[Halting Hex]

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XANDER:  It's just kissing; it doesn't mean that much.

Yeah, but…the reactor I was watching pointed out that Xander had spent pretty much all of the previous episode trying to get Cordelia to date him openly, and sulked when she wouldn't.  So I guess there's some emotional investment there.

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Xander uses his military knowledge to get the soldier's permission to enter the armory; he and Cordelia go inside.

REACTOR (regarding the sign on the door):  "Secured Area"…and the door isn't even locked.

Okay, fair point.  But Xander did say that security around the base was pretty much a joke.  Military Guy wasn't kidding, I suppose.  (Locks cost money, you know!)

***********************************

So, what did Giles and Buffy tell the others about Jenny's duplicity? (Xander seems completely unsurprised by Giles's "She said 'get out'.")  And how is Willow going to tell Buffy about X/C?  "I know you're having a rough time because Angel is evil and killing people…but Xander's been kissing Cordelia!  So, things are hard for me, too."  LOL.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

Okay, so the "Was I Not Good?" scene is rough on Buffy, but at least she's able to enter Angel's apartment without having to break the lock, as she did in What's My Line, Part 1.  Good to see that Angel was able to finally man up and give the gf a key.

Or alternatively, he just left the door unlocked because he was changing clothes and didn't think it necessary.  But that means Buffy checked to see that door was open before breaking in, and what are the odds of that?  50/50, on a good day?  I mean, really.

[Halting Hex]

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BUFFY ("explaining" what happened to her and Angel last night):  …and with the hiding, we just split up.

Well, yes, Buffy…you and Angel did just split up.  Perhaps not the way you mean it here, but close enough, anyhow.

(And perhaps Buffy's word choice was subconsciously being influenced by her fears?)

****************************************

It's a good thing we've established that Buffy lives near downtown and Angel's place, isn't it?  Because that would be one heck of a Walk of Shame if Buffy had to hoof it all the way to Willow and Xander's neighborhood, or the school.  (Or if she had to call Joyce for a ride home…)

Speaking of "Walk of Shame", did Joyce not wonder why Buffy would come home after spending the night Willow's, anyhow?  As mentioned, Willow's place is much closer to the school.  (As seen in this very episode, where Willow walks back and forth to her house in Act II, but Joyce is offering to drive Buffy to school in Act I.) 

It would make much more sense for Buffy and Willow to go directly to school after their "sleepover".  (Buffy could have brought a change of clothes to Willow's.  Or, since what she's actually wearing are the spare clothes she keeps at the school [remember, she had to change after she fell into the bay], it would hardly be surprising that she might have some at Willow's, too.)

Okay, okay, as I've said in a different thread, I'm just proud that Joyce can recognize Buffy.  Wanting her to solve more complicated questions, such as "where does Buffy's best friend live?" might be asking a bit much, I'll allow.

But still…

*****************************************************

A follow-up to The Great Bra-less Buffy Watch, as touched on the Surprise thread.  I was wrong about Buffy wearing a bra when she's climbing over Jenny in the classroom; she's only got the one set of straps there.  No evidence of anything under her spaghetti-top.  So I guess she's being consistent.  Perhaps she thinks that 17 means she's too old for undergarments?  (Hard news for Angel if he was hoping to keep a souvenir.)

And, rewatching Lie to Me, I see that Buffy is "free" in Act 1 of that one, too.  In the scenes in History class and right after; there's nothing under Buffy's purple top that we can see.  Although she rectifies that later in the episode…I guess seeing Ford again made her shy? (Bad Ford! Bad!)

Edited February 14, 2022 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

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OZ:  Uh, arm!

This is mostly seen as a humorous, "sounds as though it ought to be a non-sequitur" line.  But when you think of it, one of the very few supernatural things that Oz has ever seen is this very Judge!arm (or possibly its mate) leaping from its box and trying to choke Buffy, just last episode.  As the arm looks to be pretty much intact, this is really just understandable caution; he doesn't want to try and pick it up without backup.

It's interesting to note that although the main vibe we get with Oz is that he's just low-key and chill, there does seem to be a certain reserved quality to him.  He doesn't just go for random girls, despite Devon telling Oz that he could have his pick.  He gives Willow what is basically a warning before asking her out (thus giving her the chance to decline without having to formally shoot him down)…is he reluctant to just ask, straight up?  His decision not to kiss Willow in the van is logical (being "rebound guy" is not a great place to be), but again, that's Oz restraining himself.  Is this a significant character trait, or just coincidence?

*********************************
I've noted that Xander is really pushing it by asking Willow to trade on her newfound relationship with Oz to get the guitarist to basically risk federal prison time to help them steal the rocket launcher, but what choice do they have?  Cordelia's car isn't big enough, nor apparently is Xander's mom's car (which he borrowed in Inca Mummy Girl), and while Joyce's Jeep might fit the bill, Buffy isn't licensed to drive, and it's unlikely Joyce would loan it to one of the other kids.  They need a van or similar, which means Oz.  Case closed.

But…couldn't they rent a van?  Cordelia has money, right?  But you have to be 18 to rent vehicles and it's unlikely that Cordelia is.  Since Buffy just turned 17 and Xander had his birthday sometime between October 10 (Reptile Boy) and now.  This is the 16-turning-17 academic class, it's established.  So no luck there.

But what about Giles?  Problem:  not only would he also be risking federal charges if they're caught, but he can't expect the sort of leniency the kids might receive.  And since he's not an American citizen, there might be espionage charges involved.  Best to leave him out.

I suppose Jenny might be a candidate for renting, but Xander hardly has that sort of relationship with her, and to ask Giles to talk the only girlfriend he's had since Callaghan was in #10 into this sort of favor might be pushing it.  (And even getting Giles involved in such a limited way probably risks his green card, at least.) Best to stick with Oz…even if this is a lot to ask of Willow right after he was caught "cheating".

I do wonder if Xander is trying to protect Oz and (especially) Willow by coming up with a plan where they don't actually trespass within the security fence, as he and Cordy have to do.  But I'd assume that all the surrounding land is part of the base as well, so that wouldn't change things legally.  (Was there no gate the van had to get through to get even this close?  Geez, talk about your poor security.)

And who's the genius who designed the base so that the weapons locker has windows that access outside of the perimeter?  Never mind Xander, given how little the grunts earn, I'd be thinking that more than a few would be tempted to slide some valuable hardware out that window and sell it on the black market.  No wonder the defense budget is so bloated if the armory contents keep "walking off" that way.

***********************
My newest reactor (Thor) was quite rightly concerned for Willow's safety when Angel shows up at the school, and was itching for Xander to have a "spidey-sense" moment.  But really, aside from Angel's body language and the "convenient" loss of power, there's a simpler reason for Xander to realize something is up.  It's just basic logic.

After all, if Angel had something to show the gang, why doesn't he just go with W/X to the Library, rather than asking Xander to bring the group to the hallway?  Where, as noted, the lights aren't working.  Even if what Angel is talking about is outside (did Angel buy a car? Is he pissed off that Spike still has the DeSoto, even though he's in a wheelchair now? [Xander doesn't know that Spike and Angel are buddies again, of course]), why wouldn't they go as a group?  Why does he seem to want to be alone with Willow?  So it's not surprising that Xander twigs to the situation.

Okay, so Angel might want Willow alone for…other reasons.  But as much as it amuses me to think that "I got something to show you" is just Angel talking about his penis, again 😉 …that's probably not actually the case.

****************************

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SPIKE:  I know you haven't been in the game for a while, mate…but we do still actually kill people.
THOR (reacting):  Oh, like you're one to talk, Spike!  Look how many chances you've had to kill Buffy.  (beat). You're all pretty bad at this, actually.

Okay, true.  Evil beings like to taunt and gloat, much more than they probably should.  But, I ask you, what's the point of killing if you don't have any fun?  I mean, you can buy blood.  (Only animal blood, but still.) It's understandable that the vamps don't want to pass up an opportunity to torment Buffy just because they're thirsty.

I grant you that killing Buffy coldly and quickly eliminates the chance of her killing you, but it's not as if she's actually done that, yet.  So perhaps the vamps think they don't have to worry about her so much?

Edited March 1, 2022 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

10 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

But as much as it amuses me to think that "I got something to show you" is just Angel talking about his penis, again 😉 …that's probably not actually the case.

But what if that was exactly what Angel intended to show Willow?

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WILLOW: OMG, Angel, it's so small!!!

 

[watcher1006]

On 3/1/2022 at 3:09 AM, Halting Hex said:

Okay, true.  Evil beings like to taunt and gloat, much more than they probably should.  But, I ask you, what's the point of killing if you don't have any fun?  I mean, you can buy blood.  (Only animal blood, but still.) It's understandable that the vamps don't want to pass up an opportunity to torment Buffy just because they're thirsty.

I grant you that killing Buffy coldly and quickly eliminates the chance of her killing you, but it's not as if she's actually done that, yet.  So perhaps the vamps think they don't have to worry about her so much?

Well Angel said it himself in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" when Spike suggests to him that he rip Buffy's lungs out:

"Lacks poetry".

[Halting Hex]

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JUDGE:  You're a fool.  No weapon forged can stop me.

No, you're the fool, Blue Boy.  Didn't you read your own instruction manual? No weapon forged can kill you, true, but the prisons are full of people who got "stopped" without being slain.  And there's certainly a precedent for stopping you; a bunch guys with swords did that, already.  (Remember that bit about how you spent 600 years, your living head in a box?  How do you think that happened, exactly?)

It shouldn't surprise you that technology has advanced a bit.  But even so; all Buffy's doing is following in that long-ago army's footsteps.  It's foolish to brag about an ability that has already proven to be irrelevant.

Enjoy the box again, dum-dum.  See you in 2598 or so.

[lembergwatcher]

Buffy was lucky most of her nemeses were as dumb as that Judge guy. 

[Halting Hex]

Thinking about all of this, Buffy really has to put the LAWS rocket back that night, doesn't she?  There's no guarantee the other soldiers will be as dim as the one that Xander bluffed his way past; if there's an inventory taken any time soon and the launcher isn't there, it wouldn't be too hard to get sketches of Xander and Cordelia out there, and since stealing from the Army is a really big no-no, you'd have the FBI (and Marcie?) hunting all over the general area for the "spies".

And it has to be Buffy, since Xander isn't getting past the guard, twice.  Much less if he's carrying a rocket launcher.  But if Oz drives the van back to that conveniently placed side of the building, and they have a ladder, Buffy can scramble up there, open the window that Xander (presumably) left unlocked, and drop the launcher back in there.  But I doubt anyone else can climb a ladder while carrying that thing (which has to be in its case, since that's where the Army would expect it to be), so it has to be Buffy.

Which means that, by the time Giles drops her off at home, she's probably physically as well as mentally exhausted.  No wonder she's on the verge of tears.  Awww.

[lembergwatcher]

On 6/19/2022 at 9:46 PM, Halting Hex said:

And it has to be Buffy

That's quite possible scenario.
 

Spoiler

And then, a few years later, Buffy decided to "borrow" this launcher back in order to kill SHS's new young principal just to make that guy wearing magical jacket happy...

[Halting Hex]

On 7/8/2021 at 9:34 PM, Halting Hex said:

XANDER:  It's just kissing; it doesn't mean that much.

Yeah, probably not the right thing to say to the girl who's never been kissed.*  Who spent hour after hour dreaming of her first kiss…with you, playa.

To be fair, Willow knows that this is familiar territory for Xander; he'd already been kissed by Ampata.  But still.  As much as Willow hoped they'd reach those sort of milestones together, it's still important that he's taking her deepest hopes, and just dismissing them.  Ouch.

There's probably a reason why this scene comes directly before the "Was I…Not Good?" scene; they're actually somewhat similar.  Now if Xander starts wearing leather pants…

(So, does this mean that Cordelia really does have bad breath, as Xander implied in Bad Eggs?  Because X doesn't seem that impressed, apparently.  Too bad Giles didn't offer her a breath mint [as he does for Willow] in What's My Line, Part 2.  Next time, Rupert, bring enough for everybody, okay?)

[Halting Hex]

Is it me, or does Willow take a few seconds to watch Xander and Cordelia smooching before freaking out and running off?  Either she was really heartbroken…or her powers of denial were so strong that she never considered it was Xander whom Cordelia was smooching until she saw his face, even though she literally saw him heading into the stacks barely a minute ago.

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WILLOW (thoughts):  God, look at Cordelia making out with some random guy in the stacks.  She's such a ho.  I wonder who it is?  Hmm, he's about Xander's height…where did Xander go, anyhow?

Of course. the other possibility is that Willow was just too preoccupied with checking out Cordelia's butt to even notice that there's a guy she's kissing, but there's precious little evidence to support that theory.  No matter how many hints Buffy seems to be dropping.  ("Wow, you're a dish.  I mean, really."  Aww, poor horny Slayer!)

[MapleCourt]

Best episode ever. That look on Willow's face when she sees Xander and Cordelia kissing. Buffy and her mom on the couch at the end. So sad.

Only bad part was that she didn't kill Angel at the end. I get why she didn't, but the guy did just try to destroy the world.

Oh and Oz's stupid speech to Willow about kissing. That was dumb too.

[lembergwatcher]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:39 PM, MapleCourt said:

Only bad part was that she didn't kill Angel at the end. I get why she didn't, but the guy did just try to destroy the world.

I started losing respect for the character of Buffy Summers after that. She's hardly an intellectual, but she can't be that dumb. She knows Angel's gonna kill since it's a vampiric raison d'être (as Spike put it). She knows Angel's gonna come after her friends and family one day. She knows many people will die. And yet she walk away from him

Spoiler

thus figuratively signing a death sentence for numerous innocent people. The saddest party is that Buffy never truly aknowledges she was partly responsible for all those deaths too and has zero problems with continuing the whole thing with Angel in the next season.

 

[Halting Hex]

Yeah, but OTOH, Buffy

Spoiler

does take action against him eventually.  Which beats trusting Spike solely (pun) on the basis of some unknown piece of metal in his brain, or leaving the Hellgod-killing to Giles, ffs.

*****

On 11/9/2023 at 12:39 PM, MapleCourt said:

That look on Willow's face when she sees Xander and Cordelia kissing. Buffy and her mom on the couch at the end. So sad.

Only bad part was that she didn't kill Angel at the end.

A bit of a muddled antecedent here; for a micro-second I thought you were complaining that Willow failed to kill Angel.  Which would be asking a bit much, dramatically (Buffy being the titular heroine and all), no matter how wonderful it might be.

(You have read Dawn Steele's classic "everybody-kills-Angel" fanfic, "Let Me Count the Ways", right? I love the Xander chapter and Cordelia's is a delight, but Willow's will always be my favorite.)

On 11/9/2023 at 12:39 PM, MapleCourt said:

Oh and Oz's stupid speech to Willow about kissing. That was dumb too.

A bit inorganic, since Whedon admitted it was an attempt to "get Oz over" with the fans. It's a pretty natural reaction from Willow, though, and the scene would work just fine if Oz didn‘t have A Speech ready to go at the drop of a hat.  Something more like

Quote

WILLOW:  Forget I said anything.

OZ: It's not like I haven't thought about it.  Especially in class, because i'm not going to be thinking about class.  But this kind of feels like you want make Xander jealous or, I dunno, even the score? I think if anything happens, it should be about us, y'know?

would work fine, without the over-blown "freeze-frame" and the dramatic "oh, I'm not going to kiss you" and artificial phrasings like "to the casual observer" and "your friend Xander".  (Willow knows who Xander is, Joss.  He was literally just in the van with them.  Oz doesn't have to specify. I get that you want to show that Oz is new to the group, but Marti did that just fine last episode.)  Oz is a new character; it's best to develop him as naturally as possible.

I mean, there will be opportunities going forward, but still.

Spoiler

(Or you could make him a monster next episode and pretty much keep him a one-dimensional hologram for the rest of his time on the series.  But why would you do that? Sigh.)

Edited November 30, 2023 by Halting Hex

[Guest]

On 11/16/2023 at 1:25 PM, lembergwatcher said:

I started losing respect for the character of Buffy Summers after that. She's hardly an intellectual, but she can't be that dumb. She knows Angel's gonna kill since it's a vampiric raison d'être (as Spike put it). She knows Angel's gonna come after her friends and family one day. She knows many people will die. And yet she walk away from him

  Reveal spoiler

thus figuratively signing a death sentence for numerous innocent people. The saddest party is that Buffy never truly aknowledges she was partly responsible for all those deaths too and has zero problems with continuing the whole thing with Angel in the next season.

 

Yet you’re so defensive of Xander (and rude to anyone who criticises him), even though he tried to stop Buffy from killing Anya, when she returned to being a Demon and started killing again. Seems hypocritical. A bit like Xander. 
 

At least Buffy had the excuse of being 17 and the one who had to kill her bf. Xander was an adult and didn’t have to kill Anya. He still stepped in and tried to stop the murdering demon from being killed. 

Edited February 18 by MythTaken

[Halting Hex]

Apparently, the one spoiler that Mike (of the 732 Review Crew) knows is that Buffy uses a rocket launcher at some point.  (He claims he's only watching to see that and then he's going to stop.)  

Which makes it fairly hilarious that these are the two episodes where Mike isn't present for the filming.  Mikey and Joe are cracking up the moment we hear "it took an army" and once we get to the break in at the army base, they are so excited to see if it's the LAWS rocket, which lets me notice how many times Joss hides the reveal until we finally see Buffy with it, ready to fire.  The guys totally mark out and high-five when the weapon is finally revealed.

(Joe saw some late-season episodes when he was a very small child, so he thinks he knows which characters survive until then, but he doesn't recall any plot details; Mikey is totally new.)

*********************************

Mikey apparently has the eyes of an eagle, as he's always spotting little details.  When Buffy comes home at the top of Act I, he notices that the shirt she's wearing has the same rip that Angel was checking out last episode.

Which makes perfect sense (when would Buffy have had a chance to fix it or change tops?) but also explains why Buffy stands a bit awkwardly on the stairs until Joyce goes away…she doesn't want Joyce to see that her clothes got shredded.

(Even if Joyce still thinks Buffy had "fun at Willow's", I doubt Joyce would approve of Willow literally tearing Buffy's clothes off.  It's always the quiet ones you have to look out for, Joyce.)

**********************

Mikey and Joe also wonder if Cordelia and Xander took a moment to…enjoy the storage room, since the big guns were there to stimulate Cordy and presumably the floor had linoleum.

Seems an inappropriate time for a diversion, but Xander did tell the guard that he could work quickly, so…

And it would be darkly hilarious if, at literally the same time that Oz is nobly refusing to kiss Willow because he's concerned that she's doing it to get back at Xander, Xander and CC were…making a connection, about 20 feet away.

*********************************

Quote

BUFFY:  Was I…not good?

ANGEL (laughing):  No, really, you were great.  I thought you were a pro.

In actuality, Buffy was so "good" that sex with her led to Angel killing the Alley Woman in the teaser, who seemed to be rather…"professional".  Ironic!

So give it up for the gifted amateur!

Edited July 12 by Halting Hex

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

That scene with Willow seeing Xander and CC kissing ,  I got the impression that Willow was not only shocked by what see was seeing,but very emotionally hurt. I always thought Willow had this huge one sided love for him going back to the 3rd(?) grade??? Bless her heart!  The scene between Willow and Oz in the van, the way Oz explained to Willow that he wanted to wait to kiss her, the look on Willow's face looked like she couldn't be happier. 

[Halting Hex]

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JUDGE:  You're a fool.  No weapon forged can stop me.

BUFFY:  That was then.  This is now.

(Buffy hands the crossbow to Xander and receives a LAWS rocket in return.  She starts adjusting the sight and flicking switches as Angel and Drusilla panic and dive for cover.)

JUDGE:  What's that do?

(Buffy fires the rocket, blowing the Judge into lots and lots of little Judge-y bits.)

Yo, Blue!  While you're laying around, waiting for somebody with lot of time to put all your pieces together, consider this:  if everybody around you is starting to skedaddle, that's pretty much your cue to run, too.

If they're wrong, you can blame them for misleading you and making all of you look like fools.  But that's a far better scenario than "stand my ground and discover that they were beating feet for a very good reason."  He who hesitates gets pulverized, and all that.

(I grant you that the Judge missed out on not only Cato [1712], but Joseph Addison's entire career, given that he's been in the boxes since the late 14th century, but still.  Ignorance of an aphorism is no excuse for missing the truth behind the words.

And yes, I never heard of Joseph Addison, either. [I thought "He who hesitates is lost" was Shakespeare.]  But no, "The woman who deliberates is lost" is all him.  Rock on, Joe.)

Edited November 13 by Halting Hex