Maximum Taco
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8 minutes ago, screamin said:
The annoying thing about Jorah coming back and being pardoned by Dany for his Westeros crimes is that he'll displace little Lady Mormont to become the ruler of Bear Island.
I don't think so.
For one, I don't think Jorah wants that. Maybe before he wanted to come home and rule Bear Island again, but now I think he just wants to be close to Dany. More likely he becomes one of her Queensguard and forfeits his claim.
For two, I think there's a higher than normal chance he dies, probably next season. Whereas I doubt Lady Lyanna will die.
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16 hours ago, Tikichick said:
What caught my attention on second watch was listening more intently to the precise words he said -- and how many of them eerily fit to the potential description of the Three Eyed Raven -- immediately before Sansa was called to the gate because Bran himself had arrived. It's like the words were literally hanging in the air directly above Bran's head, almost an on the nose verbalization of what we understand Bran's status to be.
Yeah I picked up on that too.
Littlefinger is saying all that stuff about fighting every battle everywhere, but now Sansa has a weapon that can actually help her do that. Her brother.
Littlefinger is gonna be in for a rude surprise when he discovers there's someone in Winterfell who actually does know everything.
You know, if Bran stops being a dick bringing up painful memories and starts using his abilities to be helpful.
15 hours ago, Tikichick said:I've only read the books themselves. Did Martin release all of this background material?
Did you read A World of Ice and Fire?
A lot of the background is in there. The hot springs are mentioned in the books several times though. Usually when talking about Winterfell's "glass gardens"
So that's another reason to want to be at Winterfell, if they have a greenhouse, they can actually GROW food in winter.
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7 minutes ago, Francie said:
I agree with a great deal of what you've said. But two points I'd make in contrast.
Book!Jaime does begin to demonstrate care and concern for Tommen. It starts when he leaves his father's body and sits outside with Tommen to calm him. Then, when he is in the Riverlands, he contemplates telling Myrcella and Tommen. And he thinks about his son, "Would he rather have a father or a crown?" So, he does start making the journey to wanting to be a father in both the books and the show.
Second, in the show, we have Jaime believing whole-heartedly in Tyrion's innocence when he sets him free. What we don't know is whether Tyrion turning around and killing their father before he takes flight changed Jaime's mind on that. We haven't seen Jaime's thoughts on that. We don't know whether he blames Tyrion, Sansa, someone else, or just doesn't know what to believe. We only know that he hasn't been active in searching for the killer of late. In any event, Tyrion's post-freeing actions may caused Jaime to have doubts about Tyrion's innocence after all. And Olenna's confession may allow him to soften again toward his brother.
Fair points.
I'd still doubt it though, unless he's also questioning whether Tyrion killed Tywin, and I don't think anyone is, beyond us (as viewers) knowing that it's true, it would be too much of a coincidence that he was set free and then Tywin and Shae (assuming Jaime found Shae in Tywin's bed) ended up dead.
As evidenced by season 5, he has started to soften towards his children (he wants to personally go rescue Myrcella after all and tell her that he's her father), but when Bronn asks about Tyrion, Jaime doesn't say "He murdered Joffrey" or "He murdered the King" or even "He murdered my nephew" it's "He murdered my father." The show has seemingly pointed to the murder of Tywin to be Jaime's main beef with Tyrion.
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5 hours ago, Oscirus said:
No I mean that it likely restores Jaime's faith in his brother. Cersei/Tyrion ever having a relationship flew out the window a long time ago. I feel like a renewed relationship with Tyrion offers him other options.
I don't think so. You might be guilty of meshing the show and the books in this conclusion.
Remember in the books, Jaime doesn't really care for Joffrey (or Myrcella or Tommen) as a father, in fact his inner monologue reveals a detachment from all 3, not even really thinking of them as his children. He also doesn't seem to care all that much when Tywin dies. Book Jaime is concerned primarily with just two things, being with Cersei, and then later on his path of redemption as a Kingsguard. Tyrion does tell Jaime that he killed Joffrey, but he doesn't seem all that devastated by it. Their relationship is strained on Tyrion's side (because of the whole Tysha thing.) Jaime doesn't really hate Tyrion that much.
But in the show, Jaime does care about his children and his father, they have a strained relationship, but he takes the death very hard. Tyrion never admits to killing Joffrey, but obviously he killed Tywin. Show Jaime cares about Cersei, his children, and Tywin, but doesn't give one solitary fuck about his honour, or reputation or duty as a Kingsguard (beyond that also being his duty to Cersei and his children.) And the whole Tysha thing never comes up. Their relationship is strained on Jaime's side, but it's much more because Tyrion killed Tywin. Jaime hates Tyrion, to the point of saying he'll kill him the next time he sees him.
Remember this exchange from Season 5?
Bronn: You set your brother free, didn't you?
Jaime: Varys set him free.
Bronn: Well, if you ever see the wee fucker, give him my regards.
Jaime: He murdered my father. If I ever see him, I'll split him in two. And then I'll give him your regards.
Finding out Olenna killed Joffrey shouldn't do anything to fix Jaime's relationship with Tyrion.
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12 hours ago, anamika said:
Yes, but Sansa did not tattle to Cersei on the show. So no harm was done in Ned telling them.
It doesn't matter that no harm was done. If somebody puts a gun to his head and pulls the trigger but lives because the gun wasn't loaded, does that make it a smart idea?
What matters is the implication.
Ned had no qualms revealing his plans to children, children who could easily tell anyone and ruin his plans.
If he told Sansa and Arya, who else did he tell?
That's the problem, he is too upfront and honest, even when he shouldn't be. Remember that we aren't talking about Jon repeating specific mistakes that Ned or Robb made, Sansa just wants Jon to be different. He reminds her of Ned and Robb, and Ned and Robb died because of who they were.
12 hours ago, anamika said:Context is important. Jon's decision was regarding the children of the house that sided against them. Punish them or forgive them. It had nothing to do with Ned's actions in KL or Robb breaking his wedding pact. In fact by forgiving the children, Jon did the opposite of what Ned (Theon) and Robb (Karstark) did. Sansa is unable to understand this because she does not fully know what led to Ned and Robb's downfall or what their mistakes where. It was Robb's execution of Karstark that leads to the Karstark contingent abandoning them, which then leads to Roose's betrayal. It was Theon's betrayal that led to Robb losing Winterfell. In forgiving the children, Jon is uniting the North instead of making new enemies and future betrayals. And yet, Sansa admonishes him for making the same mistakes Ned and Robb.
Ned didn't disinherit Theon.
Robb didn't disinherit the Karstarks.
How exactly did Jon "do the opposite" of what they did?
All three of them punished the man who did the crime and forgave the children, although you could argue that Ned "punished" Theon by taking him as his ward, but it doesn't seem like too much of a punishment, he treated him nicely and if the events of the book/show didn't happen I'm guessing Ned would've been more then happy to see Theon become Lord of the Iron Islands and Lord Reaper of Pyke.
It seems like Jon did exactly what Ned and Robb would've done. They all punished the fathers and then they all forgave the children for having traitorous fathers and expected them not to ever take revenge. Sansa has seen this backfire on Ned and Robb, is it any wonder she's wary of the families of men Jon killed?
12 hours ago, anamika said:And yet Tyrion vouches for him and they allow him to mine for Dragon glass. Because he is straight shooter. He got the thing that he came for. If he had listened to Sansa there would be no dragon glass. So once again he was right and Sansa was wrong. His way worked.
Meanwhile Sansa is walking around with LF, letting him in on all their plans and giving him free reign to make mischief in WF. Despite knowing what he ultimately wants and despite knowing how dangerous he can be. She should take her own advice and not make the stupid mistakes that Ned made. Did anyone see his face when Maester Wolkan mentioned all those scrolls that they get by raven - one can see him already start to plot.
Yeah he got lucky that the thing that he wants is worthless to everyone but him. Sansa wasn't warning him that he couldn't get dragonglass, she was warning him that if he went south he might never come back. Like Ned and Robb went south and never came back. And guess what? He can't leave Dragonstone.
And yes, Sansa is walking around with Littlefinger letting him in on all her secrets about how she plans to feed people and keep soldiers warm.
Quite frankly, the best place for Sansa to keep Littlefinger is in Winterfell. She is the authority, everyone is sworn to obey her through Jon, and any communication that leaves Winterfell by raven goes through the Maester who is sworn to the castle which is held by her. If he was anywhere else he'd have a much easier time hatching plans and causing problems. As you said she knows what he wants, so she can keep him from getting it.
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19 minutes ago, anamika said:
Wait, so she's calling him a fool for expecting loyalty from his daughter? Typical Sansa! And btw, that did not happen on the show.
It did happen. He tells Sansa and Arya that he's sending them home in episode 106, and he's breaking the match with Joffrey. He trusted children with his plans. And yes it's stupid to do so. If I'm trying to keep a secret, I don't tell my nephew cause I know he's gonna blab it to everyone.
From what Sansa does know, Ned told everyone what King Robert wanted, and expected everyone to just go along with it even though it obviously wasn't what King Joffrey wanted. Ned is a straight shooter, and being a straight shooter is a big reason of why he died.
From what Sansa does know, Robb broke a marriage pact with Walder Frey and then accepted the apology of a man known to hold a grudge and expected everything to be A-OK! Robb is a straight shooter, and being a straight shooter is a big reason of why he died.
Jon is a straight shooter... see where she's going with this?
She's not telling Jon to avoid the EXACT same mistakes that Ned and Robb fell into, she's trying to get him to be less like them. Because it's their character flaws that led to their deaths.
Jon did it in this episode itself. If Dany had come to Jon hat in hand and refused to bend the knee, he would've sent her on her merry way. He is SHOCKED however when Dany captures his ship, his weapons and refuses to let him go back to his kingdom in open rebellion. Why? Cause Jon is a straight shooter and expects everyone else to be, just like Robb and Ned.
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Just now, MarySNJ said:
I think she said that Ned (and Robb) made stupid mistakes. That's not the same as calling him a fool, I think. Because if she's calling him a fool for going to KL, then she's also a fool for thinking Joffrey was her Prince Charming and trusting him even after his treatment of a common boy, her sister and herself in the Arya/Micha/Nymeria mess.
Ned did make mistakes once he got to KL, because he was basically honor-bound and surrounded by people who were not. He trusted the wrong people.
Well, maybe it's projection on Sansa's part because she also made stupid mistakes until she learned "Southern" lessons.
Sansa does call herself a fool and stupid on multiple occasions.
"I was a stupid girl" is pretty much her catchphrase. She's very willing to admit her past mistakes.
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6 minutes ago, anamika said:
So Ned was supposed to detect before he even went south that things were shady in KL?
As for the rest, the way Ned went about doing things was what got him into trouble - he spilled the beans to Cersei and expected LF's help - both are things that Sansa supposedly does not know. So she is calling him a fool for going to KL?
She's calling him a fool for not realizing that things work differently in the South then they do in the North. And yes Ned should realize this.
She's calling him a fool for expecting everyone to be as married to law and order and honour and what's right as he is. Even if she doesn't know he spilled the beans to Cersei, she knows he spilled the beans to her, "a stupid girl" to use her own vernacular. A smart person would play their cards close to the vest. I don't doubt that Sansa wonders if Ned would still be alive if he was a bit more like Littlefinger.
She's calling him a fool for marching into the Red Keep with a handful of men, and demanding the King to step down, with a paper shield.
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4 minutes ago, anamika said:
And again, if Sansa knows nothing of this betrayal, then why does she call Ned a fool?
He went south (which as evidenced is a dumb move for almost every Stark), he opposed the Queen, he tried to dethrone the King, he tried to do it all with no standing army loyal to him, he told pretty much everyone exactly what he was planning to do with not even a pretense of subterfuge.
Sansa knew he did all that stuff. Take your pick.
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2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:
So many light moments in this episode:
- Jon's interaction with Tyrion
- This is Jon Snow.... King of the North :D :D :D
- Dany called out Tyrion for trying to pass his opinion as ancient wisdom
- Jorah's deadpan cluelessness regarding his cure and the Archmeister's answer: "the climate huh?" LOLDon't forget Euron asking Jaime if Cersei likes a finger in the bum.
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7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:
Wait, what? Gross. Not only is Jon her brother, but she's a mere child - way too young for either man.
Remember there was supposed to be a five year age jump.
At the beginning of the books Jon is 14, Arya is 9 and Tyrion is 24.
By the time the love triangle happened Jon would be 18, Arya would be 14 and Tyrion would be 28.
It's still gross by our standards, but it's not anymore gross then 27 year old Tyrion lusting after 14 year old Sansa.
Also remember that Jon isn't actually her brother, he's her cousin. Yes, still squicky by our standards, but other characters in the books marry their cousins with little to no stigma attached.
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Just watched it this morning, gotta love a Monday off!
Thoughts
- Dany and her hypocrisy. "I'm really sorry about my dad, please don't judge me based on his actions. But I totally expect you to honour your ancestors promise from 300 years ago." Also did she really need Tyrion to convince her to give Jon Snow the worthless pile of glass in her basement? That's gotta be the easiest decision anyone ever made. Yes please take my garbage that you seem to value for reasons I don't understand, and be my friend!
- Is it wrong to root for Euron Greyjoy? Cause I find myself liking him an awful lot. He's just as much of a dick as Ramsay or Joffrey, but with a lot more charm. Man is that guy dangerous.
- Thank god we're done with the Dornish.
- Sansa is pretty good at general maintenance and practicality of the North in wintertime. She'd make a fairly capable peacetime QITN or Lady of Winterfell. It's a shame it isn't peacetime.
- Bran is a dick. Is the show going to ruin one of my favourite characters? Well they already ruined Loras Tyrell so probably. I think this is a side effect of making Bran way too powerful. In the books he can only see through the Weirwoods, a powerful ability, no doubt, but in the show he's a freaking time lord.
Bran: I'm the three eyed raven.
Sansa: And that means...?
Bran: I KNOW ALL AND SEE ALL!
Sansa: Great! So you gonna tell us how to beat the White Walkers and what Cersei is planning?
Bran: No, instead I shall prove my power to you by making you relive the worst day of your life.
Sansa: Go to fucking hell Bran. You dick.
- The Lannisters got awfully good at this war thing. Abandoning their ancestral home and taking the actual rich kingdom whilst also burning the remainder of Dany's fleet and stranding her army of Unsullied on the other side of the continent. Hot damn, they struck several blows to Dany and now have the ability to pay back the Iron Bank to boot. I almost want to root for them.
- Imagine if Harry Potter was in the Citadel? "Congrats Harry for doing the impossible thing that no one else could do! Now do this busywork. What? You thought you'd be awarded the House Cup? No I'm not going to rob the good students of their achievements because you couldn't be bothered to follow orders. Your reward is avoiding expulsion!"
- Well played Olenna Tyrell. I am heartened that the show failed to take away your badassness and let you go out like a freaking boss, twisting the knife into Jaime and Cersei.
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1 hour ago, anamika said:
Yeah, but do they really believe it? Like they knew about the WW, but did not seem to believe it was all real until Jon tells them. I doubt they think it's real even now considering their rather lackluster reaction to the threat.
As mentioned above, everyone's reaction to all the magical stuff on the show seems very underwhelming. Considering the whole point is that the politics and treachery has been important because no one believes in the magic, but now that the magic is really here, we should be seeing shock and disbelief - but everyone is like oh...okay.
I don't think dragons are as unbelievable as WW or other things.
WW haven't been seen since the Long Night, that was 8000 years ago.
Dragons on the other hand have only been extinct for about 150 years.
Using a real world example, if someone told me they had discovered an island where a flock of dodo birds lived, I might say that's hard to believe without a picture or other kind of proof. But I wouldn't call immediate bullshit on them either. It's believable enough that somewhere in the world there might be a living dodo. Now if someone told me they had discovered an ambush of Saber Toothed Tigers, I would call immediate bullshit on them. (Side note: How cool is it that a group of tigers is called an 'ambush'?)
This is the same thing, it's believable enough that there might be a dragon or 3 out there.
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7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:
That's not a guarantee, there are over 50 tunnels leaving out of the keep.
BOBW: Vary's brings the map to Tyrion, Tyrion gave the speech those are brave men out there; lets go kill them.
It's pretty much a guarantee.
If she torches the entire city until the stones crack and the river boils Cersei is dead.
The number of paths out of the keep is immaterial at that point, there could be 1000, they all empty out somewhere in the city.
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23 minutes ago, screamin said:
If what she wants is to take down Cersei with minimum loss of innocent lives, a direct dragon attack on the Red Keep is in order and damn the real estate losses. Is keeping the Red Keep intact worth the cost in innocent lives? Because 'starving them out' will starve and kill the poor first...in a siege the rich and powerful commandeer the food supply to themselves and their soldiers.
Burning the Red Keep is a plan with a lot of faults.
Cersei knows that Dany is on Dragonstone, she knows Dany has dragons. She is no doubt aware of the possibility of a dragon assault. Even if Dany doesn't think Cersei can do anything to hurt her dragons, it doesn't rule out the possibility of escape. The Red Keep is not Harrenhal, which is a castle in the middle of nowhere, it is a castle in the middle of a city, a city with thousands of places to hide. Not to mention the fact that the Red Keep has a myriad of hidden passageways into and out of the castle, a fact which both Tyrion and Varys know. They also both know that Jaime knows, and thusly can probably assume that Cersei knows.
The only way to be sure Cersei dies is to torch the whole city.
If Dany torches the Red Keep and Cersei lives all Dany gets is a reputation as a psychopath that is trying to burn the city down. Does that sound like any past King we know? Don't you think Dany would like to avoid that comparison?
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8 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:
When Ned Stark and his children first found the Direwolf and the litter they found 5 dark pups - and then they heard another cry. The pup was white and given to John - that's why he named his Direwolf "Ghost"
Is it possible that the direwolf Arya saw was not Nymeria but Ghost?
I think I will laugh out loud if Danerys shows up at Casterly Rock and find out it is now owned by the Iron Bank for non payment of the money owed
Ghost is an albino and has red eyes.
The direwolf Arya encountered could only be Nymeria.
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3 minutes ago, screamin said:
Though with Dany's aerial superiority, she could swoop down from above on one of her dragons in the dark of night, attack the Red Keep and turn it into another Harrenhal while leaving the rest of the city largely untouched. Yes, she could get more opposition than she bargained for with Cersei's New, Improved crossbows, but she doesn't know that. There doesn't really seem to be a logical reason why this possibility is discounted.
Ideally you'd want to take the city and the castle intact.
I mean she wants to live there after everything is done.
I'm sure if she has no options left, swooping down and cooking Cersei (and numerous others, including servants) will be entertained. But I see nothing wrong with trying to starve them out as option one. It usually is option one for the more well provisioned army, you can take the whole city, with all the infrastructure intact and lose no soldiers.
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9 minutes ago, doram said:
We're talking Westeros. In the history of Westeros, this was done successfully.
Aegon didn't really conquer with an army, he had a very small force as far as men go. Dany dwarfs him in terms of manpower.
He conquered because he did not give a fuck about burning people alive (even innocents) with his giant living killing machines. Dany clearly does.
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18 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:
I was disappointed to see that Ghost didn't go with him. Would that have been so hard to include?
I'm 90% sure that the Ghost scene that was cut was him asking Ghost to protect Sansa.
Especially after Littlefinger's creeptastic "I love Sansa like her mother" comment.
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2 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:
And speaking of Bran . . . why has Dolorous Edd not sent a raven to his good buddy Jon to let him know that his little brother just turned up? There has been enough time for Sam to make his "discovery" about the Dragonstone/dragonglass connection and send a raven to Jon but Ed hasn't gotten around to notifying Jon that his brother (the legitimate heir to Winterfell) is alive?
I'm enjoying the show but yeah, the plot holes are HUGE.
This could be another matter of different places moving at different speeds.
We don't know that time is passing in Oldtown at the same rate time is passing in the North.
Sam could have made his discovery months before Bran even arrived at the wall.
It will be odd if Bran shows up totally unannounced though.
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46 minutes ago, screamin said:
Thing is, what does a union with Jon offer Dany? He gets dragonglass and maybe the use of her dragons against the Night King...what does he offer in exchange? He can't spare men to fight for her, he needs them all against the Night King. So what advantage does he offer Dany if she marries him?
He offers his 2 Kingdoms and his crown, bloodlessly.
Look the marriage is largely insignificant to both parties here, Jon has no desire to sit the Iron Throne or see his son sit there, Dany has no desire for an heir (she thinks she's barren.)
Jon does want dragonglass, and men and ideally dragons to fight against the Night's King.
Dany does want to bring Kingdoms under her rule with as little violence as possible.
If they could do a straight trade of his crown for her resources, they probably would. But the Northerners declared their independence and House Targaryen doesn't have the best reputation, they would not be ok with Jon just giving up the crown.
All the marriage does is improve the optics, Jon isn't giving up his crown and the North isn't "surrendering" to the dragon queen. He's marrying her and a Stark/Snow will sit the Iron Throne once he knocks her up. It doesn't matter if Dany is barren like she thinks, the Northerners don't know that. And even if she is barren, Jon will be the one to take the throne if she should die, and his heir is Sansa (until Bran returns anyway.)
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On 2017-05-15 at 1:06 PM, SeanC said:
This kind of surprises me, because I would have thought one of the main things HBO wanted out of GOT spinoffs was the ability to make use of the existing iconography, settings, etc. A show about Yi-Ti or whatever might as well not be set on Planetos at all, as far as generally audiences are concerned.
Yi-Ti, Asshai and the Summer Isles are probably out.
But they could set a show in Braavos probably and that would be reasonable. Duelists in the streets, and Faceless Men!
Lots of fun stuff there.
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11 hours ago, Oscirus said:
What Yara is saying makes sense. I wonder what will stop them from doing just that.
I don't think their fleet measures up to the Iron Fleet. Sure they took Euron's "best" ships, but quantity probably trumps quality here. Also aside from Yara and Theon and her men the Ironborn are almost certainly all better at sailing and naval combat then anyone Dany has. The Unsullied are practically useless on a ship, they need open space and great numbers to use their spartan-esque tactics, the Dothraki are worse then useless, they are terrified of the water and not used to being on boats.
The Dragons, as always, are the wild card. Could you put them out in a naval battle? Would they be able to distinguish friendly ships from foes? Even if they could use the dragons, if you set one ship alight it could take down both fleets. If Dany's Navy saw the Iron Fleet coming they could always put the dragons out as a vanguard and burn Euron's ships while her naval force hangs back and watches the show. Perhaps Euron takes them by surprise though?
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4 hours ago, anamika said:
Curious to see the opening credits. No more Essos. We will probably get KL, Old Town, Twins, WF and the wall.
The "Rules" that the showrunners have put out have said the title sequence must include King's Landing, Winterfell, the Wall and Dany's location (regardless of whether the location actually appears in the episode.) So the means we'll definitely get Dragonstone. Also the episode is titled 'Dragonstone', it'd be pretty amusing if it wasn't in the opening credits.
Endgame Discussion and Speculation
in Game Of Thrones
She'd still need to find a ship that wants to go to West over the Sunset Sea.
When nobody's ever returned it severely limits the amount of people who would want to go.