doodlebug

I live in Cleveland. One of the Cleveland kidnap victims lives near me, her kid (born while she was captive, fathered by her rapist) goes to a local school with the kids of friends of mine. Nobody would ever tell anyone how or where to find either one of them. Nobody bothers them as they live their everyday lives as best they can. I suspect that there are more than a few members of the local media who know exactly where they live, too, and, still, it's not out there online or anywhere public. Most people are decent human beings and have far too much self respect to invade the privacy of folks who've already suffered so much. I agree, the Duggar girls could easily leave the compound and find themselves living very private lives under the protection of their community. Josh, on the other hand, should expect torches and pitchforks if he ever tries to 'blend in'.

Or the chickenshit pig of a brother who has disappeared from sight leaving your life in shambles and forcing you to step forward and defend his molesting a** to try to save your lifestyle.

I think Megyn Kelly did an adequate job with the interview. She could've gotten into more depth with them, but, in this case, I think her more laid-back 'let them dig their own graves' approach worked. Had a real investigative reporter interviewed them, JB and Michelle would've folded like a couple of cheap lawn chairs. They're not that bright and they don't have the experience or skills to defend themselves against a real fact finding interview. Had she really gotten down and dirty with the follow-up questions and broken them; the Duggars and their supporters would've claimed another 'unprecedented attack' was launched by the evil media, that even Fox News betrayed their trust. These are shallow, shallow people who really don't have a clue as to how it would look if they continued down the path of protecting their son at the expense of their daughters. She let them show themselves to the world as they really are and that was more than enough to end their teevee careers. As for Jessa and Jill volunteering to speak out, remember how these girls were raised. From blanket training to being 'trained' to be instantly obedient and never question their parents, to being told they must 'keep sweet' no matter what; these girls have had no opportunity to exercise their free will ever. These are the same girls who claim they love wearing their long hair permed because that's how their Daddy likes it, who would never bare their shoulders or their knees and who were fine with getting parental permission before even speaking to a boy and then followed the ridiculous courtship rules laid down by their parents. Hell, Jill wanted to be a midwife but had to settle for some half assed program of pseudo midwifery because her parents would've disowned her had she gone to a real accredited school. I'm sure if asked, they'd claim that they did these things because they wanted it that way; not because they've been raised their whole lives to do what their parents expect without deviation or complaint. I doubt Jim Bob or Michelle had to formally tell them to do the interview, but I don't believe the girls have the agency to do anything but what their parents expect of them. They've got a lifetime spent as virtual hostages to their parents wishes and almost complete isolation from other POV. It's like Stockholm Syndrome magnified to the nth degree. I am sure they think the interview was their choice, but I suspect most of us, if we'd been at the compound and witnessed the events that lead up to it would agree that they had no free will in the matter.

This morning, both Good Morning America and Today ran features on the interview and both agreed that the aftermath will be a disaster. Both use their legal experts to comment and they were fairly merciless towards Jim Bob and Michelle and expressed concern for the girls being out in the media giving interviews while their molester is being protected still. Not a single positive remark. Stick a fork in 'em.

Both Good Morning America and The Today Show ran features on the aftermath of the Duggar interviews, both used their legal experts to comment. It was not pretty. Both emphasized the parents' minimization of what happened as well as their defense of their son at the expense of their daughters. Lisa Bloom at NBC specifically pointed out that their entire interview focused on Josh and what they did to protect him back in the day and that the interview made it clear that that is still the priority today. She asked pointedly why it was that the parents and his victims were still protecting Josh who is apparently not even supposed to face direct media scrutiny to explain himself now. Dan Abrams emphasized that Jim Bob's feeble attempt to avoid tagging Josh as a pedophile was legalistic BS and not at all helpful. They both ran excepts from the next interview where Jessa asserts that, as a victim, she is the only one who can call Josh a child molester or rapist and 'that is going overboard'. Both commentators expressed nothing but sympathy and concern for the girls and thinly veiled contempt for JB and Michelle. As it should be. News reporters, they're just like us!

The Today Show ran another feature on the scandal this morning. They mentioned 19 sponsors have dropped out and commented that TLC's silence on cancellation is somewhat strange in this circumstance and may be an indication that they are negotiating with Jim Boob to bring back the show in a revamped version featuring the girls and won't announce anything until that happens or doesn't. In a completely unscientific online poll, Today show viewers feel the show should be cancelled outright by a large majority; 78% in favor.

I don't think Jim Bob belches without expecting a check. However, I don't see how they could possibly do an interview with a legitimate reporter at this point. No way does Diane or Meredith give them control over the questions or any editorial control. And there's no way a legitimate reporter interviews them without delving into the misogyny and victim blaming of Gothardites as well as their weird and repressive attitudes towards sexuality. They'd also be expected to provide specifics of what exactly Josh did for punishment and what exactly were the qualifications of the 'counsellor' who worked with Josh and the victims. The horse is out of the barn already, there is no way Jim Bob, Michelle or Josh can give an interview and avoid answering some very pointed questions about issues they don't want to talk about because they know their beliefs would not help them with the mainstream public. The US Magazine issue coming out now has a small pic on the cover and a story inside. It lays out the victim-blaming and patriarchal views of the Duggars as well as specifically mentions that they are followers of Gothard, who resigned after sexually harassing dozens of young women. US is not exactly hardhitting journalism; so if they're telling the truth about the Duggars and their sick beliefs, there is no safe haven for them to continue to ignore the ugly side and remain in the public eye. Letting the mainstream populace know just how twisted their so-called 'faith' is is not going to win them sympathy.. As for the girls, they were all minors when they were molested and, although we know who they are, thanks to the piss-poor job of redaction from the police department; legit media outlets are still not using their names or even mentioning that the sisters were the main victims. However, if one or more of the girls publicly states she was a victim, then all pretense of privacy is gone; her name will be out in the media fore everyone to see. They're not going to out themselves, IMO, if only because, if they are to have any hope of continuing on TLC, they cannot be ID'd by name in the mainstream media. If they admit it to the press, then TLC is going to have to address it on any show they do, opening up a whole 'nother can of worms. TLC doesn't want a show about incest and the molestation of young girls which is what will happen if one or more of the girls steps forward.

While we're never going to know for sure what the basis was for Josh' petition to DCFS, it is most likely to appeal some sort of restriction such as an order that he not be allowed to reside in the house or that he never be alone with any of the minor children without direct parental supervision. That sort of order from DCFS in these cases is pretty common and, since the Duggars were no doubt already trying to hitch their wagons to reality TV; it makes sense that they'd want to appeal sanctions like that. There's no way to portray your family as godly and better than the rest if your teen aged son isn't allowed in the house. It would've been too easy to get caught either violating the rules if filming started and it would be pretty tough to get the production company to ignore an elephant that big in the room. As others have noted; Josh most likely didn't actually sue DCFS nor was there an actual trial. He probably petitioned for dismissal of some of the court sanctions and there was a hearing about this. Since there doesn't seem to be anyone alleging any abusive behavior from him since 2003, it was probably granted without much fuss.

I don't think we know if anything was filmed, but, as I recall, the family went to Chicago for a pre-interview and evaluation. I don't believe Oprah or the Duggars have ever spoken about what happened or why the show wasn't taped and broadcast. Rumor had it that Jim Bob insisted on complete control of the interview including what questions could be asked and the option to edit out anything he didn't like. No way Oprah would've agreed to that. It was also rumored that, in the course of the interview, Jill and Jana's interest in midwifery was discussed and Oprah offered them free tuition to a real midwifery school and they flatly turned it down, making it clear that they weren't permitted to participate in non-fundie schooling. Oprah who is all about educating women, decided to can the whole thing since she couldn't broadcast and appear to endorse that kind of narrow mindedness. And, now, of course, it is quite possible that Oprah simply cancelled the interview after getting the letter alleging the abuse. If the producers approached Jim Bob about it and he acknowledged that the letter had a basis in fact; Harpo would've backed off in a heartbeat. As far as CPS getting involved now, there are no allegations of current abuse. All this stuff is more than a decade in the past. All but one of the principals is an adult and the last one will be in a couple months. CPS is swamped with business; unless there are allegations of recent or current abuse; there is nothing to investigate. The police report indicates they were involved 10 years ago and probably signed off long ago. If they were to get involved with the Duggars now, over incidents from more than 12 years ago; the family would rightfully be able to sue for harassment. Now, if there is something current that someone reports, that's a different story.

And, after getting caught and owning up to molesting his sisters the first time and supposedly getting forgiven by God and his victims; Josh continued on for at least another year, molesting even younger children in even more blatant ways. I realize it is virtually impossible to prove a negative, but forgive me for not feeling comfortable with the word of an admitted molester and his parents. If Josh didn't stop the first time he was caught, I am skeptical that the 'punishment' he was given the second time was effective, either. Alas, the atmosphere in which Josh was raised as well as that of his victims, makes it very unlikely they would step forward voluntarily. After all, even when they were questioned outright, the victims claimed that it had only happened to each of them once (or not at all) and that every single incident dated back beyond the statute of limitations. Maybe that's true, but the rest of the story makes me suspect there was still a lot of covering up to protect Josh going on even years after the fact.

Oprah is far too classy, she isn't Geraldo Rivera or Nancy Grace. She (or her production company) did all that was reasonable to do. They received an anonymous tip about Josh' crimes and they turned it over to the cops. Oprah was NOT 'aware that the Duggars had a child molester living in their home'; all she knew was that someone claimed that they did. Big, big difference. Oprah is not a law enforcement official, she's not even a mandated reporter. No one has ever said that she witnessed anything or that anyone with direct knowledge ever said a word to her or her staff about what happened. Oprah did the only proper thing; she turned it over for the legal authorities to handle.

They're still available from On Demand in Cleveland (Cox). I think it matters who your cable provider is as well as what part of the country. I don't see a lot of joy here, I do think that many of us, including myself, have thought over the years that the Duggars, specifically Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh, were smug hypocrites and I suppose there is some satisfaction in finding out we were correct. However, I don't think anyone is joyful that the Duggar daughters have been hurt so grievously and we are sickened because many have found their brand of religion to be misogynistic over the years and we ache because we have a feeling those girls were not protected or comforted; but instead blamed and chastised for their brother's deviant behavior. If there really are demons in their part of Arkansas causing wonderful Christians like the Duggar to sin and they need to be driven into a lake, why use hogs? Why not pack those mean old debbils into some used cars off the Jim Bob's' lot and drive 'em clean into the ocean? Josh is looking for work, I hear.

Depends on the statute of limitations for that offense. If it is 3 years, like it was for Josh' crime, then it is too late. The cops were told about it when Jim Bob came in for questioning, but that was more than 3 years after the fact. The trooper, as a law enforcement officer, is a mandated reporter, meaning he was legally obligated to report the molestation to the proper authority to deal with it. He didn't, but that is only a misdemeanor anyway. Considering the guy is already in prison for 50+ years on multiple felonies, it wouldn't be pursued even if the statute hasn't run, which it probably has. If nothing else, I hope this story spurs Arkansas and any other states, to extend the statute of limitations on child molestation to at least 3 years beyond the victim's 18th birthday. We've heard again and again how adults have let down the kids in these situations all too often. Let's at least give some of these children the chance to get justice as adults.

I have no doubt this is going to happen sooner than later. There's no way it was just 5, however, because of the fundie code of silence about this stuff, it would be hard for someone in their circle to come forward. The Duggar virtually never mix with anyone other than their own kind of fundies. If Josh molested one of their kids, the message probably would've been the same as the Duggar girls were most likely given. Josh confessed to the church and Jesus forgave him. That's that and the girl would also be interrogated about what she did to stir his lust. And told that if she ever brought it up again, she would be ostracized. Their 'faith' is the center of their lives, all of their relationships and their livelihood in many cases, is intertwined with it. For someone who is still fundie to come forward will mean the loss of virtually everything and everyone in her life. It is unlikely to happen. However, rumor has it that Joshie frequented strip clubs and such prior to his marriage. If that is the case, there are folks in the secular world who know he didn't repent and didn't curb his lustful ways.. Those of us in the real world wouldn't much care if a young guy hung out on the seamier side of things. And, based on what we've heard about Josh, as well as other fundies, chances are he wasn't the sort to look and not touch. There may well be a wanton woman or 10 out there with some stories to tell and I suspect we'll be hearing from them soon. This story is the tip of a very large, very ugly iceberg methinks. And Josh and his parents are sittin' in deck chairs on the Titanic as 'Nearer my God to Thee' is playing.

Yes, whether he slept there or not, Josh was the only one to have any private space that was his alone. Meanwhile, his sisters couldn't claim a single pair of socks as their own. Recall during the homebuilding special that Jim Bob and Michelle claimed the other kids wanted the big dorm rooms, that they wanted to share. I remember some posters who wondered what sort of teen/preteen girl wants to share her bedroom (and, in some cases, her bed) with babies and toddlers? Now we know. A girl who doesn't feel safe in her own bed, a girl whose been violated in her own home, a girl whose parents placed the blame on her and told her to 'keep sweet' and pretend she wasn't harmed by it, a girl who is worried about her younger sisters being defenseless if their brother wanted to assault them, too. A girl who sleeps fully clothed well into her 20's. It's been haunting me ever since I heard the truth. If we didn't know what we know about their beliefs; that women are 'lesser', that it is always the woman's fault if a man is lustful, that if she is assaulted, she did something to bring it on; it would be easier to think that the Duggar were only trying to protect all of their kids, but, we know that is not the case. They were trying to protect their son and they did it at the expense of their daughters who were not only told to 'forgive' their brother instantly, but were also blamed for it and were seemingly the only ones who suffered long term consequences for this tragedy. We've been told repeatedly that girls are to 'keep sweet' and never express a negative emotion ever. In view of what we know to be true, the monumental emotional abuse these girls have suffered cannot be denied. . Jesus wept, indeed.

He only went to the police 3 years later, after Oprah's people notified authorities. He was called to come in to talk, as were the girls and Michelle. Had he not voluntarily talked to the cops, he could've been hauled into court and the kids put into foster care. However, when push came to shove, he refused to allow Josh to talk to the police and threatened to lawyer up. The only reason the police didn't pursue this was because each and every one of the victims claimed it was a one time thing and that every single incident was more than 3 years in the past. Outside the statute of limitations, in other words. There is no way those girls weren't coached and instructed as to what to say, its just too convenient. As far as Jim Bob going to the 'police' 3 years earlier when he and the church elders went to the highway patrol friend, nope, I don't think that is what happened at all. I think he went to the elders perhaps due to his religious beliefs but also because he needed to get advice to protect his son (daughters be damned), avoid prosecution and avoid ugly publicity which could've derailed his embryonic career as fund celeb and nascent TV star. I think he or the elders picked the cop because 1) they were sure he WOULDN'T file a report- otherwise, why not just go down to the police station, call Children's Services, find a lawyer?. JB and his buddies wanted to keep it out of the justice system and chose a law enforcement officer that they knew would do this, giving them plausible deniability if it ever came to light. After all, they TOLD a cop, it wasn't their fault he never followed up. 2) they no doubt picked his brain and probably a couple of fundie lawyers about the legalities and made their plan to design their own system of 'justice' for Josh and the girls that essentially let Josh off with a lecture and a couple months of manual labor and made it clear to the girls that it was all on them and they'd better keep their yaps shut and carry on. BTW, many years ago, a situation like this happened in my family. A teen relative confided in a friend that her father had molested her for years. Her friend told her mother who called the authorities. The girl's father was arrested, CPS involved and the wheels were turning. The girl, oldest of 6 kids, was told by her mother in no uncertain terms that their entire family was being ruined and it was her fault. Her father was going to jail, they were going to be bankrupted and homeless and she and her siblings were going to end up split up in foster care or worse. She was about 15 at the time, her father was showing interest in her younger sisters, can you imagine being in that position? She recanted and refused to cooperate, feeling she had no choice, her family was at stake. Oh, and her mother knew about the molestation for years prior to that and had done NOTHING. The authorities knew what had probably happened but what could they do?

Well, The Today Show featured the story in its top headlines at the top of the show and then had a report after the first half hour, with Erica Hill, of course. She naturally denied any knowledge of this story at the time she filmed the special. The story made it clear that the police report was the smoking gun. I suspect that Jim Bob and Michelle actually brought this down on themselves by having Joy request the records be destroyed. I think that someone affiliated with the PD or the juvenile court found out about the request and leaked the story to the media for a price, triggering the FOI request. It's just too coincidental that this story broke in conjunction with the motion to destroy the records. Without the police report, its all hearsay which is why this story lurked around the edges of the internet for years. Today rightly emphasized that it was more than a year from the time the parents discovered the situation before they spoke to the authorities. Erica says she attempted to contact both Jim Bob and Josh, but, amazingly, her best buddies were unavailable for comment. The report stated that the victims were 5 young girls and that part of the abuse took place in a communal bedroom where they slept. I have a feeling that it is network policy not to name underage victims of abuse without their consent, but I think that anyone knowing anything about the Duggars can guess who it was. The only way they can salvage this is to agree to an on air interview with TLC that includes the girls and doesn't allow them to vet the questions. And there is no way that happens without JB and Michelle forcing words into the girls' mouths. Those kids aren't actors and the lies won't hold under scrutiny. The jig is up, this thing is already spiraling. Jim Bob and Michelle aren't going to be able to control the message any longer and the dirty truth is coming out about them and their warped beliefs and values.

Amen! Maybe I am out of the loop, but I was a 14 year old girl once upon a time and I wasn't allowing boys to grope me back in the day, nor did I know any boys who would've tried (they might've thought about it, but they knew it was wrong and didn't do it, sister or not). While times have changed, I doubt that most 14 year old boys are getting much action these days either. I think most kids are raised to know right from wrong and that touching anyone without their consent is wrong. Just because Josh' parents set up a bunch of silly rules about fraternizing with the opposite sex doesn't mean he didn't know it was wrong. There are plenty of outlets for teen boys and they existed long before Playboy or internet porn. Over the centuries, most young men have matured in situations where the only nearby females were related to them, and yet, they didn't resort to molesting their sisters while they slept. Certainly the atmosphere in his home, where Josh was taught that, as a man, he was in charge of all females and that any sexual temptation was the fault of the woman, might have helped him justify his actions and allow him to blithely ignore his sisters' feelings in all of this; but his situation as a young teen was really not that extraordinary from an historical perspective as well as from a religious one. His actions were still far outside the realm of acceptable behavior by any standards.

Yep, Jim Bob knew the trooper because he had some dealings with him at the car lot or something. There was no formal police report filed, no mandatory reporting to Children's Services or anything else, it seems. Once again, not from Arkansas, but police officers, like schoolteachers, doctors and nurses are 'mandated reporters' when it comes to child abuse. That means the minute Jim Bob told him what happened, the trooper was legally obligated to notify authorities. If he wasn't already serving 50+ years for child porn, he'd be out of a job and on his way to jail. Having seen Jim Bob in action, I suspect he made sure this guy wasn't going to file charges or otherwise upset the apple cart before he ever spoke to him. I presume JB only told the story later in order to make himself look like he'd actually done something about his son's behavior when all he really did was cover it up. Years ago, a patient of mine told one of the nurses in my office that she was under a lot of stress at home. When the nurse questioned her, she said she'd found her 12 year old son touching the neighbor's 3 year old daughter in their garage. She hadn't done anything other than tell her son to stop and she took the little one home. My nurse rightly told her that it was out of her hands, that both for the little girl's sake as well as her son's; Children's Services was going to get a call. The patient got irate, even angry about it. Didn't matter, it's the law. We made the call immediately. I don't know the outcome, of course, because it involved children.

Probably, at least for any of the girls involved who are 19 and a half or under. She'd also have to be willing to do it, which seems doubtful with this bunch. Not a lawyer, but I am a doctor. I know about the statute of limitations on malpractice, which is a civil charge, As an obstetrician, the parents have exactly one year from the date of the injury to sue me on behalf of their child although they can file for a 6 month extension which will automatically be granted. If the parents don't sue on behalf of the child, there's another opportunity for the child to file for themselves. In the case of a minor, the statute doesn't start to run until that child turns 18 and then they get the same year and a half to file. This is how it goes where I live, anyway, but I don't live in Arkansas.

The police reports mention several separate incidents taking place months and months apart, meaning it was well over a year. This seems to have been taken from Jim Bob's statement to the police. It appears Jim Bob and Michelle did not seek counseling for Josh until after it happened repeatedly. No mention of any counseling or treatment for the girls as victims of abuse.

Josh has already resigned from FRC today. I presume he and his family are on their way back to Arkansas as the Duggars circle the wagons and try to figure out how to spin this. Alas, I suspect that they've become too media savvy to say what they really think; that Joshi was innocently led astray by his wicked sisters. I do hope that the media does some investigation of Gothardism and its teachings about this stuff and well as what exactly was involved in Josh' 'counseling' after the incident and what exactly Jim Bob and Michelle did to protect their daughters in the aftermath. Even if Jana wasn't molested herself, I can see Jim Bob and Michelle laying blame at her feet for not being a modest example for her sisters or otherwise not living up to her duties as female 'Buddy in Chief' and somehow preventing it from happening. I could also see Jana taking this to heart and, as the senior mother figure to all the rest of the girls, feeling tremendous guilt and remorse that this happened. It might almost be harder for her if the reports are true and she's the only one of the older girls who wasn't abused. If nothing else, I only hope that TLC, in the wake of a second child abuse scandal involving kids from a reality show, will start to do a better job of investigating these people before throwing money at them.

Anna was a Gothard daughter, still a teen, pure as the driven snow. I am sure she was told that Josh did something immodest after being tempted by girls who were flaunting themselves and lead him into sinning. I don't think anyone would've told her specifically what happened, and, even if they had, she would've interpreted the information .through the Gothard lens which clearly states that men and boys are not responsible for their actions; at least, not while there are women and girls around to blame. So, its no wonder she minimizes Josh' responsibility for the molestation of his sisters. She is thinking that it will never happen again in her home because her daughters won't be Jezebels like their aunts (though I suspect she didn't know it was her sisters in law until recently).

Thanks for this tread. Yes, Cromwell arranged the marriage with Anne of Cleves to cement relations with Europe and she was #4, after Jane Seymour. Katherine Howard was #5. To remember the wives in order, there is the old rhyme: Divorced, Beheaded, Died. Divorced, Beheaded, Survived. (Catherine of Aragón, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour. Anne of Cleves, Katherine Howard, Catherine Parr).

I took this out of tags because it occurred after Cromwell's time. The Widow Rockford was lady in waiting to Catherine Howard, Wife #5, who was a distant cousin of the Boleyn family/Duke of Norfolk. She was 20 at the time of her marriage, Henry was 49. Catherine was flighty and apparently none too bright. Aside from having been betrothed to another man at one point (which we learned from Anne's story rendered any subsequent marriage invalid), Catherine carried on an affair with Thomas Culpepper while married to Henry. It was hardly a secret and Henry found out pretty quickly. Jane had assisted the lovers in setting up meetings, so she was charged with treason along with Catherine, Culpepper and Francis Dereham, the former fiancé. Jane was imprisoned several months for questioning prior to her trial and she went BSC during that time, having essentially a complete mental breakdown. She admitted to anything and everything, but was so out of touch with reality that it isn't clear what was true and what wasn't. In fact, because it had been against the law to execute someone who was insane, Henry petitioned and got an exception made for Jane. She was beheaded right after Catherine. Culpepper also was beheaded while poor Dereham was hung, drawn and quartered.