fantique

Haha, sorry that my tone was abrupt, I was slightly irritated.

Well I guess that's why I asked about what people find surprising because Rickon dying during the battle is pure Ramsay so when I read he didn't kill right away, I figured that's what he would do with him. And Jon being proclaimed KITN was super predictable too in my mind, it's basically fantasy 101. And I like fantasy tropes just fine since the fun for me is the characters involved feeling like real people and being invested in them. We just clearly don't find the same things surprising. Margeary being super pious to get her way is completely in character, and what else were Yara and Theon going to do after running away if not to foil their uncle's plans. These are good story beats, I just don't find them surprising and that's due to good characterisation and consistency, which I like. What I understand as a "reveal" is something is not overt or explicitly discussed enough (in universe but also sometimes out) that you know about it or even wonder unless you are questioning everything. Yara and Theon are not hiding what their plan is, they lost, stole a bunch of boats and coincidently, there is a queen that just lost a bunch of boats. It did not feel like much of a leap. Same with Margeary, she's locked up with a radical crazy person, we've seen how she handles crazy people (Joffrey); she pretends to share their delusions. So why would it be surprising for her to put on the faithful act? And she didn't convert, this was always her religion! A character thing that surprised and I considered a reveal was Yara being at the very least bisexual, that's a reveal to me because I never thought about it so reading it was like uncovering something new, that is revealing about her character. Um no that wasn't what I was saying, these were just what seemed to be the biggest reaction causing reveals in the recaps I read. I was asking in terms of the show, but was trying to establish that some things would obviously be less unexpected if I considered as options. As I said above, Rickon's death and how Ramsay would use him seemed obvious to me and Clegane Bowl never held any interest for me, how surprised could I be if there are only two options and I didn't have an investment in either account. And actually until they telegraphed his return, I was sure the Hound was dead in the show. I was extremely surprised when they brought him up. As for Arya's storyline, I was only surprised that it took this long. I had read somewhere that Walder Frey was back so I figured she would kill him since she was due back in Westeros soon. I just found it weird how long it took and how many episodes she was in, I just assumed she would be in the premier and three episodes max. But hey, MW got that Emmy nomination and she's defintely one of my favourite actors for this show so yay for her. 1. That's wrong, other people spoke for me and you never got a confirmation from me so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ? 2. I came here because the people in this group had a higher of knowing the same things that the host knew. I can't ask non book readers if they are as surprised as a book reader that had more information and opportunity to see things coming. Westeros.org seemed less appropriate because a lot of posters have exhausted all possibilities and scenarios so that would have been less indicative, I thought. 3. I think I can live with people not giving a shit whether I watch the show or not. Sorry, but I am not exactly turning in my sleep about people liking the show. I haven't had time to catch up on Silicon Valley, much less GOT. I only had time to read recaps during my commute. 4. The reveals I mentioned were specifically in terms of the show because my question was prompted by a comment that the host found the show exciting again because he felt he had no idea what would happen next, so of course I'm not talking about them in terms of what they mean for the books. If I cared about the show spoiling the books or whatever, I wouldn't fucking read recaps. I read them because I wanted to know what happened with the character I am invested in, heard good things that made me want to watch the show again (and saw an absolutely adorable gif of Sansa and Jon hugging but that's neither here nor there) but didn't have the time to watch it. That is a possibility, as apparently foreign the idea is to you. 5. I don't to have explain myself, but should I want a circle jerk of people telling me I am right to not watch show, first of all I wouldn't even have listened to BLAH because they love the show. Second of all, I wouldn't come on a TV FORUM that is mainly dedicated to the show with the books being discussed in context of the show. So either I have a genuine question or I'm a fucking moron with zero social cues. You seem unable to consider the former and seem to think the latter so let's just agree to...just not. If anyone else feels the same way, feel free to ignore and/or block me. K, thanks.

Well, I don't have any theories I genuinely care enough about to have confirmation or denial really affect me. I was more referring to the fact that the existence of any theory makes it a possibility and therefore can never truly be unexpected since it is a considered option. @glowbug already mentioned the Hodor theory. As for RLJ, I didn't think much of it not being true because (despite some people trying to shove canon bending theories) it is the only option that fits with both the canon limitations and character themes without having to ignore pre-established events and character traits. But that's just my opinion. If RLJ was wrong I wouldn't have cared because of its independent status as a theory, it would only affect my appreciation of the text if the alternative was something that relied on "tricking" the readers or giving them red herrings that mean nothing out of the context of RLJ. The WW seemed like it was something they were told because otherwise I don't see why they thought it was important since we already know how to kill WW and wights, and the people involved directly with that moral dilemma are gone. Bran can get visions of how to destroy them if there was a ritualistic/magical way that is needed to be uncovered and I assume that is also the main purpose of Sam's presence in the Citadel. I guess I just can't think of what they thought was important about knowing this if the mythology isn't that reliant on it and on top of that, the people involved are all dead so I don't see the moral aspect playing much of role. Unless it's all a cautionary tale for Bran (and later his allies) that an "end justifying the means" approach causes problems down the line. So outside of this eventuality, I don't see what would motivate the writers to make such a big deal out of this reveal unless they wre told it's important for whatever reason that they were probably not given. Then again, I wasn't aware there was a specific number of reveals they got from GRRM. But regardless of whether it's their idea or not, an ancient race summoning forces of nature that they can't control that ultimately leads to their extinction is not exactly unheard of nor is it super out there... which I like. I hate it when people think something can't be true because it's "too obvious", I like build up, consistency and themes. I don't want a writer to pull things out of their arse just for the gotcha. Independently of the books and theories, I was just puzzled by the thought that the plot has gone in any surprising directions, it all sounds pretty standard tropes for me. I share your preference of characterisation and themes over shock or surprise. But since I didn't watch the season I can't speak much to that, the big stuff I've been hearing about mostly concerns people I don't care about, really Sansa is the only one that keeps me invested enough to check up on the show. That's why I was asking about whether you guys felt like it was a particularly suspenseful season and what do you generally expect from a fantasy setting. I'm asking about fantasy specifically because in this genre more than any other, I find the overly worked twists to be contrived and it has actively ruined many a reading experience because I love to reread books and stupid twists ruin the build up for me since I know a twist that relies on being out of left field to be surprising is coming. I only brought up the theories because my knowledge of them meant the events were not surprising. Did anyone who doesn't follow outside spoilers or read about theories feel like the plot was particularly surprising? Oh I hadn't heard (or forgot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ) about that part. It doesn't make much sense, thematically speaking. Hodor is part of Bran's storyline, why would he randomly have this super duper secret knowledge about RLJ as opposed to things to do with the character he has been carrying around for 2-3 years? My reasoning was kind of the same as for why I think the WW reveal is not just the fruit of D&D's imagination, if Hodor had seen something that would give the plot away, he can't talk about it which means it would be found out through the Weir-net, and it can be found out through the weir-net, why have him invomved at all since the guilty parties are, once again, dead and gone. It would just be sad shit because reasons. Also, I never felt like there was a need to explain why Hodor only says one word, what I wondered about was why it was this one specifically since we found out it's not his name.

Hello guys, I have a question after something that really surprised me when listening to the Boiled Leather Audio Hour podcast. Granted I stopped watching the show and just read recaps for season 6 but one of the host mentioned liking being surprised and not being able to predict things anymore. I guess as a genre fan in general, I was wondering if most people found the season 6 plot to be particularly original or innovative in any way? The three "big reveals" (I count the origins of the whitewalkers, hodor and RLJ) did not even make me raise an eyebrow. And I have been anticipating Cersei bowing up KL since she burnt the Tower of the Hand so that wasn't a surprise for me. The first two are theories in the fandom and enough said about RLJ so I just thought "oh so they confirmed that theory? Ok". I guess I am just confused because nothing surprised me and it feels like the show has been going down the very straightforward LOTR road so I am confused by people calling anything that happened unpredictable. Is it because they don't know the tropes? To be fair the host that said that admits he doesn't do much predicting and rarely picks up on hints from the books. Btw, I am not disputing the quality or emotional impact of the reveals/events, like I said I haven't watched it but from a plot standpoint it all seems extremely trope-y and rehashed. Maybe watching it was different but from what I read not enough really happened to even have "twists" or whatever. Not being a hater, just wondering about those types of expectations for all types of media because I think my nerdiness just means I don't leave things alone and I love to make predictions so I am looking out for clues all the time anyway. I guessed at RLJ simply because I binge watched the show up to whatever episode was airing midway through S4 (before reading the books) and the question stayed in my mind since it made no sense for it to be a secret unless it was someone important and the show only name checked a few people that were related to Ned so it wasn't hard but I know that apparently some people find it so out of left field that they think the R in RLJ stands for Robert? Again, just stuff I heard so I'm not sure how prevalent that attitude is. Also in general what kind of things do you expect from fantasy stories, what were twists that really got you previously? I'm curious.

Favourite POVs would be Arya, Cersei and Jaime. They are not my favourites (well Arya is) but they are the POVs that click the best go me. What struck me with those three (others have it too but those really hit close to home) is the fact that I know people like that. Arya is the easiest because we think very similarly, I unfortunately met quite a few Cerseis and I know that person who fucked up and self flagellated for years suffering needlessly but just needed that slap in the face to wake up. And their themes are just ones that always capture my interest in a tale. Arya with the identity, death and war. She is our eyes on the ground to witness the horrors of war and I applaud George for not letting with either her or Brienne. I liked the reprieve in feast/dance for the same reasons I liked the Alayne spoiler chapter. She is just discovering this new place, not being pursued, fearing for her life or threatened with rape. Her Cat chapters are delightful to me because she is having fun, interacting with people and just chilling. Even after she is blind, it's still more like this cool learning experience as opposed to a fear inducing one. Cersei with the self fulfilling prophecies and systemic and internalised misogyny. She set the scene for her downfall, she can't/won't realise it and she thinks all her woes are due to her possessing a vagina. The disastrous meeting of the societal constraint with her personality disorder and lack of actual competence is interesting to watch. It's hard to totally condemn her for the mistakes her environment made her make and seeing her punished for those instead of her real crimes is uncomfortable. And poor Jaime and the mistakes of youth. He was arrogant and his pride was wounded by Aerys. He was disillusioned with the idea of knighthood and chivalry after serving the most undeserving King. He acted rashly and his arrogance got in the way. Not only did he not NEED to kill Aerys, but he certainly wasn't particularly enlightened to sit on the throne chilling. He spent the rest of his life punishing and condemning himself while trying to commit to his "role". I like his road to redemption, it won't wash out the bad but he is definitely doing some good both for himself and others. Well, that was long winded...oh well.

Hey you guys... I can't believe I just realised this thread existed. (:/) This is quite late to join the party but I'm tired of lurking on w.org and this is a fun way to talk about the books and the show without needing to "take sides". Mercy Alayne in Winds Question to stillshimpy, this might have already been addressed so sorry if that's the case. Like the fire immunity question*, are there other things you took as fact but were different in the books? To me, guest right and the RW outrage didn't come across as strongly (and I'm being generous) in the show. General question: the more I (re)read the books, the bigger the gap between the two Tywins I find. Am I the only one? On w.org, I understand it that most find Book-Tywin to be simply pragmatic and tough, and feel the (not always so) reluctant admiration I feel for show-Tywin. I find the book counterpart to be much more brutal and petty, often times unnecessarily unyielding without a reason other than just being ruthless. *(I was unspoiled for the first 4 seasons and I got the same impression about Dany being fireproof. Although I assumed that among the family, there would be special ones, hence Viserys succumbing to the molten gold.)

Came over to see if Arrow was still a MESS. Still is? Goooood. Bye, see you guys after the finale.

I donn't like Sophie. I don't see what she brings to the show that is not already covered by their 16000 cast members and the character feels like an Abbie-lite version. I can only hope that the actress' regular status means Reynolds level of screentime. I am certainly ticked off that the FBI storyline was meant to benefit Abbie's character growth and it was quickly rendered moot on that front since she was essentially just doing witness stuff with an FBI badge and now that she's gone they are expanding that story. Problem is, I stopped caring about the FBI stuff. I know it's going to happen and annoy me so I have two months to chill; I am sure Sophie will be linked to the Papa Mills storyline (not as their sister or whatever but as part of the team) and Jenny. I am not here for her (and Reynolds) being part of the team. I will be fair and say that I don't mind the actress and thought she was a lot less insufferable once she had something to do other than being snarky or smug.

Yeah, they do that preemptively for regulars and edit as the episodes dictate.

So... I liked almost everything in this episode. I guess the mansplainator (LDJ) can back it up with his writing at least. Abbie; I don't think it's any surprise here that I was enchanted with everything she did this episode. She gave Reynolds the riot act, shushed Sophie because the grownups were talking and went totally off script. I loved that she was completely unprofessional and unhinged because her baby sister was in danger and damn if she wasn't going to do everything in her power to save her. Oh the sisters feels!!!!! She was uncharacteristically rude and careless and I love that I completely empathised. It was a proof of how bad things were imo. Yay team! The past three episodes have really shown how good this team is at working together. And I continue to really enjoy Ichabod/Joe interactions. I want to see him more in that mentor role. Tree: I was so focused on fearing for Jenny and thinking "don't you dare, show" that Abbie sacrificing herself didn't occur to me until she was holding the rock over Jenny. Oh the possibilities!!! I can't wait to see how they utilise it. I like the evil power couple. I like their goal and I am looking forward to their backstory. The actors are being hammy but I don't mind because it's still fun. Zod (don't care what's his real name, that's his as far as I'm concerned) has a ridiculous voice and Pandora remains fun to watch which I feared would not be the case. FBI: I liked that they made it a clear cut choice motivated by Jenny to have Abbie quit. Honestly, they were having a hard time convincing me that she loved being there that much so it would felt cheap to try to play up that action. I do like that she was giving Reynolds shit and only humoured Sophie when she felt it necessary. I can believe it even more because she felt betrayed. I think we will find out Reynolds' reasons for not cluing her in but unless it's because he knows of the supernatural or was ordered to keep her away from Nevins, I don't know why he didn't tell her about his op, which had started even before he arrived in SH. He was probably transferred there after they tracked down Nevins' base of operations there. Ichabod: he tugged at my heartstrings when he realised her plan! As always, his "Abbie" moment was well placed and earned especially after last week. I also liked that he was behind her 100% when she started to feel doubts. It made it worse when he realised what would happen just after telling her that letting her emotions affect her is what allows her to be good at what they do. I am looking forward to see what happens to him and how he copes. I also look forward to see him being the leader of the team and see him deal with being a lone witness. It could bring much needed growth to the character. Witnesses: so they pretty much confirmed that they (well at least Abbie does) descend from an other generation of witnesses. I would like it if it's a bloodline and firstborn thing. I think that they have been other versions but I think much further apart from each other than a generation. I really hope we get to explore the reason ms why they are witnesses. Nitpicks: -No effing way nobody found that hiding place. I shall however shake it off because they made me laugh with the irony of Crane's speech on the university. -Fiubd it weird that Zandora (Pandora + Zod) didn't call them the destroyers. Meta: Loved the Twitter meltdowns. Fun. Seriously, I can't believe people think she's actually dead. I was rolling my eyes so hard but if they are crazy enough, well... Halfway prognosis: I think that the show is steadily growing out of its awkward stage. There is still something I am left wanting for but I am unable to put my finger on it. Maybe the bonkers fun? Or maybe it's the pace of the early episodes that were too slow in getting to the point? Either way, I am still feeling better about it now than I did before. I am optimistic that they have learned from some of their mistakes and will be stronger in the back half. It was also genius to have 8 episodes in the first half. They can evaluate, recalibrate and smoothly transition instead of slapping together revisions. What the casting announcements tell me is that they realise what adds depth yo the plot and what doesn't. I am also impressed with how smart the showrunner has been with managing the storylines. Their tentative nature made it hard sometimes but this was clearly a test drive and I think they will be more confident in the second half. This show isn't what it was in season 1 and it probably never will be... But I really think there are writers who can bring it to a higher level of quality. I like the new writers' energy better, I appreciate that they seem to rely less on the Cranky Crane crutch. I also like that they seem to put more thoughts into the mythology aspects of the show. PS: I totally should have seen Abbie's sacrifice coming because they were reminiscing way too much about all they faced, it felt very SPN finale ish. I was waiting for Wayward Son to play in the background.

I don't know...He was trying way too hard in my opinion. BUT, it could have been interesting because, presumably he is always travelling, they could have had them be in a casual relationship that does take up screen time (the actor doesn't even need to be there since the writers seem to be freaked out by the idea of showing her in a relationship *derisive snort*) and still be a reflection of her commitment and trust issues. I mean, I really don't want relationship stuff on this show, it works better when operating on a crazy fun ride of BSC but I find the imbalance in the treatment of both characters' emotional landscapes to be unacceptable. Especially after a year of Cranepain, it wasn't just his family drama that was overkill. What I assumed would be storylines: Abbie: witness duty, FBI life and Reynolds (we have seen so very little of that and it's been basically swallowed into 'FBI life' and rendered moot). Ichabod: witness duty, citizenship (we have seen so very little of that and it's been basically swallowed into 'Zoe' and rendered moot) and Zoe. Actual storylines: Abbie- witness and work Ichabod- witness and dating Results of this, I am waiting for Abbie to explode and I zone out when anything non-witness related happens to Crane and don't care about Abbie's FBI life because past the first episode it was no fun. I mean I know they talk about it but seriously, what the hell is happening with that citizenship? What are the problems that turn Crane into Grumpy Mcgrumperson? Because until he mentioned it, I assumed it was all going smoothly since the only lip service they've paid to its process being a hurdle is...drum roll, a JOKE about how inaccurate history books are. Which in turn made me super pissed off by his behaviour because all I was seeing was him ranting and bitching about time having an effect on life and low key taking it out on Abbie while she ignored him. I swear, I saw on Twitter someone saying they were proud of Ichabod for not yelling at Abbie last episode! So there are at least two of us that feel like he was being less than nice to her. And honestly, if it wasn't all on top of them seeming to be actively trying to avoid Abbie talking about her feelings, I wouldn't care as much. I'm easy to please, have explosions, some snippy dialogue and fun villains. I love this example. Especially because the witnesses at their best remind me of the Sherlock and Watson dynamic. And Elementary does it with a female Watson so there are no excuses. I really wish the writers would follow this model. And see, Sherlock is a drama queen that is not always being the most attentive but he is redeemed by the fact that there is no doubt that Watson is his most important friend and Watson trusts him. In Sherlock, he fucked up and Watson blew up at him and then he got forgiven. I wish the show had done that last year but especially this year. It's even similar with Ichabod disappearing without any sign of life and when he comes back Jenny is cool but Abbie is not! In both cases they appear, interrupt the course of their partners' lives, for the second time. The tension was even around the same thing, Sherlock/Crane left and Watson!Abbie moved on, but then their friend reappears and wants to go back to the way things were without caring that they destabilising their life. Difference: Watson blows up at Sherlock and forgives him after a life threatening situation and expresses his happiness at his return. OTOH, Abbie doesn't express her feelings, is slightly passive-aggressive and seems to forgive him after he is almost killed. Why is the resentment possibly still here and the partnership damaged? Because Abbie never dealt with those feelings and of course after her friend almost dies, following nine months of radio silence, she is ready to forget the issues. But can she forgive? I am going to try and take a page out of some posters' book and hope that there will be a pay off because right now, it seems like the writers don't how to deal with Abbie and their partnership as equals. I won't say they don' care because she is basically the linchpin of the main plot right now and all the plotlines are converging on her but it's done clumsily. I mean after the Katrina mess of trying to have everything in their universe happen because of her or how a character feels about her, they should know that's not what necessarily makes a character compelling or interesting for the audience. I am still puzzled by Reynolds' existence and why they felt the need to give their relationship that backstory if they were going to ignore it mostly and make it about her career but not in a "grounding the thematic in the emotional" kind of way. PS: does anyone know how to find scripts for shows? I am curious about something.

This might not make sense, I am having a hard time verbalising it properly. Okay, why explain keeping Ichabbie platonic by pointing out that Abbie is all about work and running away from relationships? To me those two are separate, there is the issue of Abbie with her love life and past that there is the issue of them liking each other that way. I would say that the fact that she dated a colleague not once, but twice points to her not having problems having a relationship and working at the same time. If the writers wanted to present Abbie as someone who doesn't do relationships when she is working, they wouldn't have had be in ones with people that she would probably have grown close to while working and with whom, due to the nature of her job, she inherently trusts her life. Andy scared Luke away but right before that, Abbie was amenable to hanging out again. When he bailed, she then said that maybe it was for the best but she wasn't saying no. Abbie isn't refusing romance, she just doesn't see Ichabod in that light. Aside from Reynolds (does he really count?), the other love interest they stuck her with was gross, and also into her sister. At this point I understand that what stands in the way of potential Ichabbie romance is that she is not seeing Crane that way and neither is he. For example, she didn't rebuke that journalist's advances the way she did Hawley by acting like it wasn't happening. I think right now, the show isn't going there because the characters are not in that mode with each other. Now, why they have awkward set ups for Abbie's relationships is another question entirely and one I would like the answer to. I meant to address this but the damn mobile config is annoying as heck. From this and what I quoted above, are you saying that it's OK with the writers for Abbie to be boring then? Or are you saying they think that Ichabod can only be interesting if he has a love interest? Either way there is a problem. The former is a stupid view for the writers to have on one of the leads of the show and the second means that there is something wrong with the character of Ichabod and it needs to be fixed.

Oh, I agree with you on the needing front. But since people most often refer to the trope of the (black) woman who is so strong that she doesn't need help, and therefore is never shown to be valued or supported by male characters around her, I was responding along those lines. I have always disagreed with the idea that she fits this trope as not only are most of her significant relationships in the show with men, she is often in the mentee/protégée position. There is never indication that she thinks she can do it alone or that she should. She is comfortable receiving guidance and has zero problem relying on Reynolds. On the romantic front, I don't think she is looking but I don't think she is avoiding it either. It's deeper commitment/connection that has her afraid not temporary intimacy. Heck, her pursuing her career has exactly zero bearings on her attitude towards romantic entanglements seeing as her last two relationships on the show have been with colleagues and the later one was formed while taking her career to the next level. This is her dream, it just happens to be a high maintenance one that involves having less of a social life. If anything, her witness life is a lot more in the way than her job, because her having anything more than a one night stand could make that person a target for team evil and I could see how that might make her less receptive. She compartmentalises and is goal oriented, right now she is thinking "I need to succeed at reclaiming my life while fighting off the apocalypse and keep both spaces separate".

I could see Joe having had a crush on Jenny but I very much doubt she had one on him. He would just still have been baby Corbin to her. If he was still at a baby-sitting age when Abbie was towards the end of her high school days...I can't imagine he would have been more than a little brat to her. Even a year in age gap seems gigantic at those ages. I cannot agree more that Abbie is not, nor has ever been IMO, a woman who doesn't need a man. These are why I need you guys in my life. I might or might not have laughed super loud in the library when reading both of these.

I would like that too... 1) Panic? Desperate to fix everything? I just hope they have her express said emotions. I just don't understand why it's not been in scripts much this season. 2) I would say most certainly. Aside from Jenny, all her meaningful relationships on the show are with men and she seems to be at ease in mentor-mentee relationship. It was clearly affecting her last year to not be in with Reyes. 3) I understood it to be that he got more competitive and stuff after he realised she was more than happy to move on from their entanglement because of his little rambling in the cell last week. 4) I think she feels like she has failed at making it all work. While I don't think she's under-qualified in the slightest (she finishes off the monster with more frequency than anyone else), I think she realises just how not "made for it" she is. She is the only one stilll trying to keep the witness stuff out of her "normal" life, she is the only one still trying to even pretend to be normal. I wouldn't be surprised if she's thought that there is a mistake and she's not the second witness. I think I talked about it before the première, I definitely want them to explore that doubt and have her muddle through until she realises that she is the witness for a reason. It could also bring about answers as to why both witnesses were chosen. 5) This I think is the biggest blow at the moment. the FBI is supposed to be what she really wants out of her life and feeling duped and out of the loop is going to be super hard. I just hope she doesn't bottle it up. I want a full on argument. I want her to show how upset she is. I am so worried they are going to just have her passive-aggressively make upset faces at him while not broaching the subject.