Dani-Ellie

Moving my response to All Seasons.

Yes. The way the first curse was written, only Emma could have broken it. Rumple worked her in as the savior because she was the product of True Love. ETA: Jinx, Rumsy4! ;)

The curse in 3B was created under different circumstances. Regina destroyed the scroll with the original curse at the end of 3A. Emma being the savior was a "safety valve" written into the original curse by Rumple placing a drop of the True Love magic he'd created with strands of Snow's and Charming's hair on the parchment of the original scroll. Dark Curse 1.0 could only be broken by Emma because that was the way Rumple created it. That is fact, and that is what was said all throughout the first season. Dark Curse 2.0 didn't have all the trappings of Dark Curse 1.0, because it was created differently. The scroll that made Emma the savior was destroyed, so Emma didn't have to break Dark Curse 2.0, but that doesn't retroactively mean she wasn't needed to break Dark Curse 1.0. She was, and she did.

I don't think Regina would have wanted to take the chance that Emma would have somehow broken the curse after 28 years, even in Eternal Newborn form. The threat was better off eliminated before she had a chance to be a threat, ergo kill the baby. Those guards she sent into the castle didn't seem to me like they were looking to make sure Emma went with them. Those guards were under orders to kill on sight.

Exactly. I just don't understand why Emma's magic needed to be taken at all. Why give her this one thing that made her feel special -- and it's not like Emma's felt special much in her life -- and then rip it away from her? Why write her enjoying it to the point that omg Emma Swan giggled, you guys only to take it from her? I mean, yeah, it made it mean more when she willingly gave it up to save Hook, but why was the side plot of giving it up necessary at all? Why not just write Zelena magically whacking over the head with something in the barn and knocking her out? Then there actually might have been some tension in the fight because Zelena just took out their Plan A. Regina could still come through in the clutch ... maybe everyone else forces her to try, just because she's the only other magic user they have, and again with the actual tension ... and we wouldn't be left with a destroyed Emma in the process. I can see that, too, and it makes me so sad. I miss the focus on Emma's story. I miss the focus on characters who aren't Regina. And it pisses me off that we spent so much of 3B giving Regina all the shinies only for them to seemingly reset her at the end of the finale. What the hell is the point, then? There's a writing tip out there that if a plot goes from A to B to C to D and nothing changes as a result, it should come out of the story. Circular storytelling doesn't progress anything. Meanwhile, Emma goes from thinking Henry was the only family she needs to wanting her mom and dad and baby brother and kid and boyfriend in the span of two episodes. And yeah, it tracks because Emma did need to let them in but that shouldn't be the whole answer. Emma didn't just need a light bulb moment and *poof* all better because Emma's not the entire problem here. The issues thrown at the Charmings for the sake of plot through the entire season are issues, and it wasn't all Emma. Snow and Charming were willing to leave her to stay in Neverland. Snow wanted (and got!) her do-over baby. Snow was pushing Emma towards Neal. Neither one of them ever bothered to push her on New York, ask her why she wanted to go back so badly. Neither one of them spent any time at all considering that maybe it was hard for her being dragged back into the nuttiness. These are all very real issues but because Emma accepts it all now, everything's fine? I don't think so. And maybe like my hope for Emma's magic, this will be dealt with in the upcoming season now that Emma's a little more open, but I just don't trust that it will. I think it's more likely that the writers are all "Charming mischief managed" and won't even think to touch on it at all.

Of course the magic was haphazardly handled, because Emma coming to terms with and growing into her magic wasn't the point of the overall story (according to Adam and Eddy, at any rate ... I would love Emma and her magic and everything about her to be front and center, but alas, here we are). They had Emma build her magic to fight Zelena but then they stole it from her because storywise, Regina needed to be the one to end the fight. (And honestly, I was okay with Regina very obviously being the one to defeat Zelena. Regina was at the center of the vendetta. Of course she was the one who needed to overcome it in the end. But, like with most of my complaints about this show, I was upset with how it was handled.) So Emma's a magic wunderkind because they needed her to be for the plot build-up and "yes, Emma can defeat Zelena" and then they took it away from her so Regina could pull white magic out of her ass. Yet again, something that should have been a journey of self-discovery and empowerment for Emma was rushed through for the sake of plot. I hope the development of her magic continues in the next season, in which case ... ignore my rant. ;)

Or how no one would have even known where on the island Pan's compound was since Emma unlocked the map.

Same here. The archetype of the parents who love their child enough to let them go is biblical, for crying out loud, with the story of King Solomon. "Then the woman whose son was alive said to the king, because her heart yearned for her son, “Oh, my lord, give her the living child, and by no means put him to death.”" In my estimation, Snow and Charming were faced with splitting the child. They could either let her be killed (because I'm sorry, but there is no doubt in my mind that Regina's guards were tasked with killing the baby; baby Emma getting swept up in the curse was never an option) or give her a chance at survival. So they decided to let her go even if it meant possibly never seeing her again because they were being unselfish enough to put their daughter's life ahead of their own needs and desires.

Geppetto created the wardrobe at the Blue Fairy's behest as a vessel to save Emma from the coming curse. I refer you to the war room scene from the pilot, where Snow, Charming, and the others are discussing what to do about Regina's curse: Charming: What the hell is this? The Blue Fairy: Our only hope of saving the child. Grumpy: A tree? Our fate rests on a tree? Let's get back to the fighting thing. The Blue Fairy: The tree is enchanted. If fashioned into a vessel, it can ward off any curse. Geppetto, can you build such a thing? Geppetto: Me and my boy, we can do it. The Blue Fairy: This will work. We all must have faith. So yes, the curse did involve the wardrobe. Like I said above, this wasn't some kind of experiment or playing with magic or "hey, let's see if we can do this." The creation of the wardrobe was an exit plan, an escape strategy, and it was a direct result of Regina's curse.

The casting of the curse was my whole point, though. It can't be moved past because it's the basis of everything. Regina set all of the above events in motion by casting the curse in the first place. If she'd just left well enough alone, none of it would have happened. There wouldn't have been a need for an enchanted wardrobe, there wouldn't have been a need for Geppetto to send Pinnocchio away, there wouldn't have been a need for him and the Blue Fairy to lie to Snow and Charming, there wouldn't have been a need to send Emma away. All of these things trickled down from one singular event: Regina casting the curse. I'm more than ready to agree to disagree, because nothing is going to convince me that Regina is not directly responsible for Emma growing up without her family.

Pinnocchio was Geppetto's son, ergo he was his family. Both Pinnocchio and Emma paid for Geppetto's choice, but Geppetto, Snow, Charming, Emma, and Pinnocchio all paid for Regina's.

Regina's curse threatened everybody. Regina's curse displaced the entire Enchanted Forest (except for the area Cora protected, but that was only because Cora protected it). Last I checked, Geppetto lived in the Enchanted Forest. But really, Geppetto is incidental here. The threat was imminent for Emma, and Snow and Charming were reacting to the threat against their baby daughter's life. So yes, Regina is responsible for Emma growing up without her parents because Snow and Charming never would have let her go if their backs weren't up against the wall by Regina's curse. Pinnocchio is actually the second child orphaned by Regina's curse, so thanks for reminding me. Geppetto was saving his family, just as Snow and Charming were saving theirs. Still, none of this saving would have been necessary if Regina hadn't cast the curse.

They made that decision as a direct result of Regina's threat, though. It's not like they all decided to send Emma away in the wardrobe for shits and grins or for some kind of social experiment or something. The choice they were left with was to send Emma through the wardrobe or let her die at the hands of Regina's guards. Sending the baby through the wardrobe at least gave her a shot, as evidenced by the fact that she's alive today. The fact still remains, though, that Emma going through the wardrobe would never have been an option that needed to be considered if Regina hadn't cursed the land. Regina forced Snow's and Charming's hand.

It's funny the different interpretations that can come out of the same piece of text. Where I see "solid, steady support," others see "wearing down." Where I see "challenge accepted," others see "power play." Context matters. What Hook did for Emma -- and what I believe ultimately won her over -- was give her the one thing she'd never had: someone who was truly in her corner. Someone who would stand by her even when she was pushing him away. Someone who would find her and someone who would come back for her. Someone who showed her that she was worth finding and worth coming back for. Without the context of Emma's past, yeah, I can sorta kinda if I squint see where Hook hanging around her could be viewed as wearing down but he was giving her something she'd always wanted, never had, and probably tried to convince herself she didn't need anyway. So yeah she was testing him, because if he was going to give up on her, he might as well do it now before she becomes invested and gets hurt again. It doesn't mean she didn't want him; in fact, I think it was an indication that she did want him but was petrified to let him in. And what's more, I think Hook knew that, too, which just made him try harder. Emma had all the power, here, from my perspective. The development of their relationship was always going to be on her terms, because that's how she is. And honestly, I don't think Hook would have had it any other way.

Hook said he got the note, ditched his crew, and used the Jolly Roger to outrun the curse. As I understood it, reversing the original curse closed the doors to the Land Without Magic from the magical lands but not necessarily inter-magical-land travel, so portals and beans and whatnot would have worked to get to any other place but the Land Without Magic. Hook states that travel between the worlds was possible again after the curse was cast, and that was when he traded the Jolly Roger for the bean. I don't think he would have been able to use the bean to get to Emma otherwise. Basically, he waited for Dark Curse 2.0 to unlock the door and then he snuck in behind everyone else. I, too, still want to know who or what the hell created the book. I really liked the August-is-totally-the-author theory.

I don't think anyone's arguing that Regina expressing remorse for her past crimes means she regrets Henry coming into her life. Regret and remorse (which are sides of the same coin, no matter which dictionary is used to define the terms ... they're synonyms, not two separate ideas) are more complex than that. She can be overjoyed that Henry came into her life while still feeling awful about all the people she stomped over to get him. As a mother, she could think about how she would feel if Henry were ever ripped from her life as a baby and then returned to her as a full-grown adult and feel awful over doing the same to Snow and Charming. As a woman who's had love ripped from her, she could express sympathy for Emma growing up with no love whatsoever as a direct result of her actions. Being happy that she has Henry and feeling guilt and remorse over the horrible things she's done are not mutually exclusive.

The dilemma is not that simple. Telling Regina Snow's location would have been giving in to tyranny. Marian, who I believe is a good person, would have had to live with that guilt of leading Regina to Snow if her information had panned out. It's not about who's more important; it's about what was right. Marian did what she could in the face of tyranny to protect her family. If she couldn't save herself, she was going to do whatever she could to save those she loved.

It's not like Marian was off gallivanting somewhere and having a grand old time while her family wondered what happened to her. She was forcibly imprisoned by Regina, paraded around to serve as an example of what defying the Queen looked like, and sentenced to death.

To clarify, I don't consider "you're just like your mother" to be back to square one. I consider "I did cast a curse that devastated an entire population. I have tortured and murdered. I've done some terrible things. I should be overflowing with regret but I'm not because it got me my son" to be back to square one. (That's verbatim.) That speech right there is my big problem, and it's what completely undid everything from "And Straight On Till Morning" on for me. As Rumsy4 said, "you're just like your mother" isn't necessarily indicative that Regina is capital-E evil, but I do see it as indicative of a self-awareness and self-recognition problem. It's another line that could very well wipe out half a season's worth of character growth, because if she still blames Snow for Daniel's death, where's the change? If she still believes her vengeance on Snow was justified, what's to stop her from taking further vengeance every other time something unfortunate happens to her? At some point, she needs to grow up and learn that the proper response to the challenges in her life does not involve blaming/cursing/doing horrible things to everyone else. As I've said, I really hope that Marian's return is what puts the human face on all Regina's devastation for her. I really hope the fact that she's the one who took Robin's wife from him and Roland's mother from him because she didn't care about what happened to the families of the people she imprisoned is what finally gives her that self-awareness. I really hope that Regina sees the good Emma did by saving a woman's life and reuniting a family, even if it means Regina loses something either for a little while or in the end. But I've also been burned as far as this show is concerned when it comes to the writing favoring Regina, so I'm also preparing myself to watch the story play out as "Poor Regina can't catch a break because the Charmings keep inadvertently interfering with her life." Even in the finale, Emma says that all she was trying to do was save Marian's life, but not only was Regina still given the last word, she was made to look absolutely correct because the scene cut from "you just better hope to hell you didn't bring anything else back" to Elsa's appearance. The moral correctness of what Emma did -- saving an innocent woman from certain death -- is now caught up in the "stupid time travelers messing things up" bias the end of the finale had.

Hook's confession to Ariel included an apology because he recognized that he was wrong. Regina's apologized to Henry but there's been no apology to Emma, Snow, or Charming for ruining their lives, which added to "you're just like your mother" leads me to conclude that Regina doesn't recognize that she was wrong. I agree that Regina's not as redeemed as Hook and I was actually buying into the redemption story right up until the no regrets speech. That just set her redemption right back to square one for me. In my eyes, there can't be redemption without the one on the redemption track recognizing that they need to be redeemed in the first place. The True Love's Kiss and white magic came out of nowhere for me, then, because as far as I was concerned, Regina hadn't earned it. All of "And Straight On Till Morning" and 3A up until "Save Henry" was reset for me by the no regrets thing. Actually, you know what? They should just leave Regina de-hearted! She had True Love's Kiss and white magic without one, after all. Heh.

Part of the reason I feel Hook's redemption arc has been handled better is that I don't at all get the feeling that he started to change because of Emma. He started to change when he thought he'd killed Rumple and it still left him empty inside. All those centuries of planning and waiting and wanting, and he did it. He got his revenge and it turned out that revenge wasn't what it cracked up to be. It didn't ease his pain and grief, nor did it satisfy him. He realized on his own that all those centuries were essentially wasted. It's a level of self-awareness that Regina has shown time and again that she does not possess. Hook tried to tell her that vengeance is an end. Emma tried to spoon-feed that self-awareness to her down at the water in "Lacey" when she told her that not everyone goes around scheming and plotting. Rumple has tried a couple different times to tell her that vengeance won't satisfy her. And every time she gets a win and it inevitably does not satisfy her, she continually tries for more and more vengeance. And then we have the remorse issue as KingOfHearts and KAOS Agent noted above. I get the feeling that Hook pretty much hates the man he was. Regina, on the other hand, revels in her evilness. That smirk when Tink told them that Greg/Owen was dead was a fantastic reaction ... for a villain. For a character on a redemption track? Not so much. I get that the guy kidnapped her son, but he was only after her in the first place because she tried to kidnap him and separated him from his father. And then when he's finally able to get back into town to find his father, she tells him she killed him. I think I'd be a little upset, too, if I were in Greg/Owen's shoes. Not kidnapping-a-child upset, obviously, but upset. And like I said previously, Regina's "no regrets" speech is the single most damaging thing the writers have done to Regina's redemption arc for me. If she doesn't regret the woman she'd become when she was holding on to darkness, where the hell is her motivation to change? It can't just be for Henry, because Henry's not going to be around her forever. At some point, he's going to meet someone, get married, have kids, have a life of his own. He can't be her moral compass forever; she needs to find her own moral compass, but she can't do that if she regrets nothing she's done. Hook, I believe, has found his inner moral compass again. There's still an edge to him, granted, but I believe that his change was internal first, and it was only after that internal change (and Emma offering him a chance to be a part of something good) that he began truly falling for Emma. We saw how he tried to backslide after he lost Emma and it just didn't take because he'd changed. I would be thrilled to pieces if this coming season premiere is Regina's "Jolly Roger," where she tries to backslide but her heart just isn't in it anymore. That would put her redemption right back on track for me. But if it becomes Regina vs Emma and the Charmings Round 734, I'm going to be even more pissed that we spent pretty much all of 3B fast-tracking redemption and giving her True Love's Kiss and white magic all without a heart because the end result would be that nothing's changed.

I can't get into AUs for much the same reason. I read fanfic to read the further adventures of the characters I know and love. With my own fanfic, I tend to try to write it so that it fits in between the scenes. I like the fics that read as the stuff we just didn't get so see, since so much happens in Offscreensville.

Not to get too off-topic, but how well a single-focus con would do depends largely on the fandom. Creation Entertainment, which ran the Supernatural con I attended in 2011, does Supernatural cons in various areas of the country and in Vancouver (which isn't much of a stretch, since Supernatural films there). They also run cons for The Vampire Diaries, Star Trek, Stargate, and Xena. These cons are typically much more expensive, but they're also much more intimate. I think there were maybe a couple hundred of us in attendance at the SPN con I went to, compared to the few thousand that attend the Comic Con panels.

I completely agree with you, and this point, I fully believe that the writers are completely blind to the fact that rewarding an as-written, non-changed Regina is rewarding villainy. They fully believe she's changed, and it's like, no, no she hasn't. That no regrets speech was the single most damaging thing to Regina's redemption arc, in my eyes, because if there's nothing she regrets, she hasn't changed a single bit. It says to me that if she had to do it all over again, she would make all the same choices because she got something in the end, which, in terms of redemption, is so very problematic that I don't even have the words to describe how problematic it is.

If having Daddy Charming feels is wrong, I don't wanna be right. ;) Daddy Charming makes everything 1000% better.