Wynterwolf

I didn't mean for in-universe purposes, and they're obviously not just letting it lie since the Ronin suit appears central the the show's plot. Nat may be gone and they may have name-checked Thanos, but again they're not incorporating any impact that might reasonably have happened from the Snap or from undoing the Snap. The only thing that seems to have happened in this show is the Chitauri invasion. And I don't necessarily disagree with that choice, I wish I could pretend Endgame didn't happen too, but it also allows them to sanitize what Clint did, and that I do disagree with. Especially given how Clint said he "made enemies" instead of "murdered people because he was angry", and he called Kate a vigilante just for wearing the suit when all she did was get caught up in the middle of a robbery. That dialog choice was highly disingenuous to me unless they're going to go someplace with it. But it is just the first two eps, so it will be interesting to see how they decide to proceed, and what point they try to make about Clint's actions while wearing that suit in EG. I enjoyed the first episode a lot, but the second one I definitely had issues. Especially for how Clint treated his kids, and particularly his daughter considering the type of relationship they're trying to set up between him and Kate. But I love Kate, and I love Lucky and I'm very intrigued by the person at the end of this ep. But what I am wondering is, how did Lucky get clean???

Same!! Especially with them choosing to use one of the very few Black actors with lines for that role. That was my first thing I thought to. The cynical part of me wonders if they saw a lot of the negative discussion about Clint's actions as Ronin so now it's the magical suit that fits anyone who wears it that made him do it. Though that really just brings up other issues, it doesn't solve anything about his actions in EG.

Yes, I thought that this was a really important part of the overall mythology, that they saw literally everyone else as disposable and only existing in service to their need for power and comfort.

I'm more seeing this as a way to correct the huge mess they created when they decided partway through phase 3 that everything was supposed to be "connected". It also frees them up to tell different stories without fans expecting everything to be connected now. And given how haphazard their creation process is (per what what has been described about how Loki was handled), they need that leeway because the left hand doesn't tell the right hand what's going on.

Ha! Yes, Disney is in the business of infinite delayed gratification. And as someone elsewhere put it, that's the basic business model of a drug dealer.

Hmmm... now I am also wondering if whatever happened to cause that change Loki came back to in the TVA (whether there are now multiple versions, or if the whole facility was somehow memory wiped and reset, or if just Loki was wiped from everyone's memory, or something else) was something that Ravonna specifically did (or will do), or that Kang himself did when he was messing with that gadget, so that the TVA couldn't effectively interfere with his new plans.

Just a point of clarification, this was Steve & Bucky's song first (and far more poignantly), before it was recycled for Steve & Peggy later in EG. I am so glad that Eric Martin confirmed that Loki has been changed by these experiences, and that they didn't want Loki to regress and fall back into old patterns!! This makes me very happy, and gives me some hope for S2. I think it will be fun to watch Loki and Mobius find their way back to each other, while hopefully reinvigorating Loki the Trickster and god of mischief in the process. And from another of EM's comments, I feel like one of the big handicaps of the MCU's way of doing things was really evident here when EM said he couldn't be certain his villain was in fact going to be Kang, so they had to hedge and write it in such a way that it would still work, even if that intention fell through. And that is so NOT the way to write stories!!!!! But this is the environment that Disney/Marvel forces their creatives to work under, and it's just not sustainable!!! And I think the toll this takes on quality of the storytelling can't be overstated. This x 1000!!! Yes, I agree with this too. And this is another deficiency of what KF & Co are trying to do. And as much I have enjoyed several of the characters created here, and the environment of the TVA, I don't think this was necessarily the right vehicle to explore Loki's character. But it's what they used because they wanted Kang for the Movies and they chose this show to introduce him. While at the same time, not even confirming to the creative team that he was in fact going to be Kang. That is just such a nonsensical way to do things!!

Exactly. There are no Primes, everyone is a Variant. And all Variants are their own Prime. Miss Minutes was how He Who Remains kept tabs on and directed his minions at the TVA. And Miss Minutes was how HWR gave Ravonna whatever that was that will probably give him some sort of edge in the new phase of his existence, and I think her stepping through that's portal is what started the time lines branching. And I think that was also the moment he'd been waiting for, the moment after which he didn't know exactly what was going to happen, and the moment after which it he had chosen to end that version of himself and be reborn. Sylvie's actions didn't affect any of that, her actions only affected her and Loki (and I agree that gadget had already been preprogramed to send whoever when through that portal there). Yes, such a classic authoritarian tactic to set up the illusion of a binary choice between their rule and something nebulously bad, when it's not in fact, a binary choice at all. Especially in this case, since he said that the war was cause by his own Variants!! But his solution was to control the actions of everyone else so there would be only one of him!!! Loki is still learning how to consider things instead of just react, and so I think he was floundering a bit, but I did think the same thing... that he just wanted time to consider and think about it. But he was wrong that they had any kind of control of the situation. HWR was just toying with them, like they were mice. But I can understand Sylvie's actions too, since she's spent nearly her entire existence alone and only having herself to rely on. There are things about Loki she's drawn to and understands because they are on the same wavelength, but they're experiences are so different and they've both been so harmed and it takes time to deal with that trauma and to unlearn those patterns. It's just not something that happens overnight. I did mostly enjoy the episode (and the whole series), but this show was essentially a 6 hour movie trailer for DS2. And at some point the MCU storytelling tactic of keeping everyone on the never ending hamster wheel of doom is going to wear thin, and people are eventually going to become less and less excited about something that never gives any kind of satisfying closure or catharsis.

"And Alexander wept, seeing as he had no more worlds to conquer." I have lots of thoughts, but I still need to digest more. Jonathan Majors did a excellent job with a character that could have come across very 'cartoonish' but didn't.

This so rarely happens for me I just have to give a small 'yay' for having some of this be right. :-D

At this point, I have zero trust in the MCU PTB who seem to place such a high value on nonsensical endings that 'no one could guess', but I have very much enjoyed this series, when I wasn't sure I would ever enjoy anything MCU related again after EG. So for that alone, I appreciate what they did here (whatever their choices in the finale end up being). This is part speculation/part my wish list: I think the TVA has to be fundamentally changed when the finale credits roll. What that looks like, I'm not sure. I don't think the TVA will be completely destroyed, though this facility could be. Or it could end up being under new management with a new mission statement. My suspicion is still that this facility is generally Earth focused and only one part of a larger machine, but having this facility disrupted in some way might free up Free Will on Earth at least (or the whole universe) for the foreseeable (Phase 4) future (and maybe this is partly what wakes the Eternals up?). And with the TVA no longer pruning alternate timelines so efficiently, chaos will start to reassert itself. Whoever created the TVA, I don't think we'll see them here, but we might hear about them. The ideals of the TVA are basically the antithesis of what a Loki stands for, so while I could see one moving into that Castle (or being placed there) to appear as the Leader, I think that would be an illusion to hid the real power behind the TVA. Loki's are designed to be used, so I could see those responsible for the TVA using a Loki to cover their existence, just like Thanos used Loki to cover his. I don't think Sylvie will die, but I do think she and Loki will part ways at the end, both freed from their TVA shackles, to seek their fortunes and live their lives with the knowledge and character growth they've acquired here. And I could see a season 2 being Loki exploring - and getting into mischief - and still being inextricably drawn to Mobius, who will still be part of whatever is left of the TVA. Outside of that, I'm just going to try to enjoy the ride. eta: also I suspect we will get the answer to the question Sylvie asked about why the TVA took her, and I saw someone on twitter speculate that the reason was specifically because she had been told she was adopted. Because that knowledge would have dramatically changed the course of her development, and that reason makes so much sense to me that I hope it's what they reveal.

Interesting idea. I could see that if Kang's goal had been to eliminate the Infinity Stones and decimate the Avengers, he would have succeeded in that with Endgame and then once he won, he got bored? And I could see one of the Lokis taking over an abandoned Castle, assuming the superficial glory without having to do any of the work. But then that would make the more important conflict happen at the TVA itself, between Ravonna and Mobius, so there'd have to be a way and a reason to get our Loki at least, back to the TVA, I'd think.... hmmm.

Ah!! Thank you!! That is intriguing... I will have to do some googling!!

Kang references do seem to be showing up a lot (kind of like Thanos did). Re: a Loki Variant as the TVA head - literally anything is possible in the MCU (whether it makes sense or not!! LOL), but probably the biggest thing that leads me away from that possibility is that one of the main, defining characteristics of a Loki is that they are undisciplined. They are survivors (which is a defensive stance, not an offensive, organized one), not leaders (even President Loki didn't fare well). And while Sylvie seems different, even she is more of a survivor than an activist. She's obviously been hiding a long time (like Classic Loki), but the TVA would have caught her and neutralized her when she made her attack if it wasn't for the existence of our Loki and Mobius changing the playing field. So whoever is behind the TVA, they are methodical and focused. Those really aren't Loki traits.

Easily the best part of the episode for me, he deserves all the cheers!

I could see Mobius releasing B-15 to help him get a private word with Ravonna, but who else would he get? And it feels more like they are setting up a private confrontation between him and Ravonna, especially if she looking for information (aka backstory we'll need going forward on the TimeKeepers and how the TVA was formed, which should tie into Mobius' backstory as well).

Hmmm. That was... fine? I enjoyed it, it was definitely fun to see the tiny Thor (providing I don't think about how long he might have been stuck in there) and the other Lokis. But especially for a penultimate episode, it was almost devoid of new information. It's only purpose seemed to be just moving the pieces on the board from one place to another - Mobius back to the TVA, Sylvie & Loki to the TimeKeeper's castle gates. I can't think of any new information we were given, and it was just rehashing emotional beats we've already covered, especially between Loki & Sylvie. Even the smoke monster was just a wall they had to climb to get a glimpse of the castle they need to invade. Old Classic Loki was glorious though, and one thing I am curious about is what exactly happens when the smoke monster eats you. Does that really end your existence or do you just get sent to another prison timeline? Because the smoke monsters purpose just seem to be to harass the inhabitants so they don't get curious about the castle in the mist. And now Ravonna is curious about who the TimeKeepers are? It almost felt like they replaced her with a Variant when we weren't looking. And I think Miss Minutes is just an AI like JARVIS, and maybe also operates as a spy for whoever is behind the curtain. If MM is more than that, I will be genuinely surprised.

This is just the way that I am understanding things so far, but yes I think we do have a situation of multiple/alternate timelines. I think that even with the 'sacred timeline', there are still additional, almost parallel timelines that do exist (if you look at the animation they showed, it does look like several almost parallel lines weaving in and out of each other), so I do think that sometimes these parallel timeline are left to progress until something happens that makes them stray too far from the cultivated timeline. So each time a divergent timeline happens, a new 'set of inhabitants' is created, so... multiple Lokis, parallel but not quite the same as the 'sacred timeline' Loki. And now, it seems like when they prune an unruly Loki, they aren't disintegrated as I had originally thought, they seem to be sent... someplace, which could be some sort of containment facility within the TVA, or an alternate timeline that is extremely divergent from the 'sacred' one, but isolated and controlled like a prison timeline. Or it could something completely different. Re: Eric Martin's comments about the kiss (unless it had been Loki giving Sylvie a sweet forehead kiss). I am VERY glad they decided not to do that, because if they had, it would have eliminated any shred of goodwill they earned with me from Loki coming out as bi in the text. That scene was already deliberately dicey as it was presented, but they left me enough ambiguity that I can headcanon something that works for me (particularly in relation to Mobius totally coming across as jealous). So whoever won that argument, thank you, you have allowed me to continue to watch and enjoy the show.

Our Loki definitely made choices that's he's responsible for (I think that was the point of what Mobius said to him, it's never too late to be a better person), but one of the other things that was different for Sylvie was that she knew at a young age that she was adopted. So she was treated differently than Loki was, even as a child. I'm not saying he isn't responsible for his actions, but it's being heavily implied that the TVA is creating the environment to get the outcomes that they want, no matter how many tries and tweaks it takes. And eventually, they got their completed desired 'Catalyst Loki' outcome, culminating in one that ended up sacrificing himself quietly & ineffectively, trying to save himself and others. The TVA are building the walls of the maze their subjects are forced to travel through. "Loki" has obviously made a lot of "unsuitable" choices since there are so many variants.

I think Ravonna's evil, self-satisfied smile right before she said it, indicated that she did in fact, remember but she knew that not telling Sylvie would hurt her, so Ravonna chose to do that instead. That's also the moment that made me feel that Ravonna is enjoying hurting and controlling/manipulating people (like Mobius), and that puts her in the 'evil' camp for me. Especially contrasting that with the scene with Loki earlier when he admitted that he didn't enjoy hurting people (whether you believe him or not. I do believe him.) I agree with this take on what caused Sylvie to be taken: The TVA needed a Loki that felt alone and miserable and lashed out, causing chaos in his wake. And that's what they engineered. I suspect Loki realizing that he didn't have to be that Loki is partly why the branch started to happen on Lamentis, but still... why? They were about to be obliterated, why would that cause a branch???

Right now, I'm leaning towards this too. It's more about them connecting through feeling the beginnings of emotionally intimate and fulfilling love for each other (outside of any potential romantic/sexual attraction) that was setting all the warning bells off. But I think it also matters that the moment they were sharing happened outside of the TVA facility rather than inside it, because that's the only place it would potentially affect the timeline.

In a way, that's exactly what he's doing (what they're both doing). They are developing a trust and an emotional bond between them, but the text hasn't taken it any farther than that. So there is the *potential* for it to be more, sure. But it could also just be emotional intimacy, but nothing sexual or romantic. I think it's only our heterosexual biases that's creating an assumption that it's more. And I think that's what Mobius' issue was, and also... I think Mobius was jealous. Because there was some emotional intimacy sparkage between Loki and Mobius as well.

My brain is exploding.

The idea of this distinction is a fascinating thing for me, because the TVA is the only one who differentiates between a 'real' (aka a "sacred timeline") version, and a "variant" version. They are all real Mobiuses (Mobiui?) just each with different experiences/knowledge/memories.

Heh, re: the sneak peek, I did not even think about the TVA showing up and taking both of them into custody before everything blew up. But sure, Mobius knew exactly what to look for (anomalies before a big catastrophe) to find them.