Myrelle

I'm really considering not looking at con stuff as much, anymore; or even lurking too much on-line any more. I'm thinking that the show might be more enjoyable to me if I don't know what's going in the minds of some of the people running the show. *shrugs*

Allusions within show are a completely different animal from saying it outright, in real life, at a fan convention, and from a show producer's very own mouth, no less, and IMO. He could have said that Dean took it on because he's an incredibly damaged individual, but he said that it wasn't the "smartest" thing he'd ever done which goes right to intellect. So in this case, "worthy" enough meant dumb enough-at least to Robert Singer. Nice. WE know that both brothers have done bone-headed things, but why is it that in interviews and promo material, the producers seem to only want to talk about the bone-headed things that DEAN does or has done? The demon blood drinking?-a "cool" solution and resolution to the apocalypse sl according to Kripke; and just *crickets* on Sam's insistence on using the BoD to remove the mark and even though that was a pretty bone-headed thing to do also. It's become so hypocritically pathetic to me. But if you want to be a member of the SPN "family", I guess you have to overlook these kind of things or make excuses for them or laugh it off. Whatever.

And yet when has a producer on this show ever labelled Sam "mentally deficient"? IMO, Singer is an old fool who's hanging on to this show for one reason and one reason only-it's still a gravy train for him and his spouse. He stopped caring about anything else long ago and it's pretty telling from this panel, again IMO. And I had to LOL at the assertion by either JP or JA(I'm not sure which one)that Singer is largely responsible for keeping this show on the air for all these years. Gee, I wonder why he'd want to do that.<insert sarcasm here>

I think she said something along the lines of "What did I take from you? ", didn't she? I thought this was the best scene of the entire episode and one of only two or three things that were worth the price of watching this perfectly horribly written episode. The Nepotism Duo remain consistent in that, at least. I think Dean had a love affair with his darker aspect while he carried the mark and the Darkness knows this because it's inherent to being a truly dark being or character. Jensen said he played DemonDean as completely uncaring of right or wrong or light or dark. It was simply all about what he wanted to do w/o being saddled with any guilt over it and furthermore actually enjoying that feeling and interpreting it as a type of "freedom" that he'd never known, but come close to in Purgatory with Benny. I'm hoping that they will take this Dean storyline where it appears that it's been heading since that time-to Dean confronting his own inner darkness-a very human tale-and where I think they were trying to go with Sam and Ruby and the demon blood sl. The episode have all been very derivative of that, IMO. We shall see. I thought Jensen rocked that scene so hard. Dean has walked that thin line between lightness and dark for most of his life-and this w/o any supernatural influence added into the mix-and as most real life humans walk that same line. The MoC was the reason that he fell on the side of darkness in s9 and 10, but the surprising thing is that on some level, it felt good to him because it, again, "freed" him completely from the confines of his own mind and all the guilt that he's always carried-both warranted and unwarranted. Amara will play on that, I'm sure. It is the essence of their bond, IMO. And again, I'm looking so forward to Jensen portraying the duality of Dean's core nature-a duality that allows him to be the best hunter on the planet but that also has messed with his mind constantly since he was a child who was not only taught to kill monsters, but also born to it, in his own mind, at least. I guess we'll just have to sit through some drek like this before we get there, though. And we see the guilt again, but with so few words yet again in that last exchange between him and Cas over Cas' desire to heal Dean. I loved both actors in that scene. No words necessary. Not IMO and even though I've read many opinions to the contrary. I think Cas finally gets it now-that Dean is, in some ways, damaged beyond repair from the life he's lived both as a hunter and to his having been appointed Sam's protector by their father from childhood. I think it's likely that Dean will be letting go of that role again somewhat this season. I think that's what episode 2, in spite of the again awful writing and execution involved, was attempting to convey. I thought the little girl did a great job as LittleGirlDarkness. I loved her "lesson" to Crowley who we all know has bitten off more than he can chew. Again. The rest of this episode was completely forgettable to me and that's what I'm going to try and do with it. I'm glad that the stupid attack dog spell is gone. What a dumb thing to waste precious screen time on, but we always have to consider the ineptitude of the writing/showrunning team on this show now. The car conversation again set alarm bells ringing in my head and red flags shooting up for the next brother "talk". I'm dreading Sam's next "lecture" to Dean because I have the awful feeling that they're just going to do exactly what they did in S5 and S8. Not looking forward to that at all, but again, thank God for the invention of the FF button.

Anyone who saw Dean as happy in his normal life in S6 saw something different from what I saw. IMO, he was there to fulfill a promise to Sam. Did he enjoy the family element? Absolutely because THAT'S what's always been important to Dean-family-not normal. For him to have wondered what it would have been like to have a family of his own is only human, but I think there was a ton of underlying unhappiness in his life in suburbia with the surrogate wife and kid and I further think that they showed this to us very well and very clearly in that scene when he took the tarp off The Impala. He initially stayed with LIsa and Ben because he thought he could protect them better that way being that he'd brought danger into their lives just by showing up on their doorstep. He dreamed about Lisa and Ben because of the family angle again. He became a hunter again the second that Sam showed up alive-even Lisa knew it. And after that he was back to being the consummate hunter with never a mention of wanting or even dreaming about having a family of his own, much less anything normal. On the contrary, he found Purgatory to be "pure" afterwards and even told HeadBenny that it was as good a place for him to end up as any in The Werther Project. Contrast this with Sam in S8 and there's a world of difference. Sam said it himself. He had what he wanted with Amelia-a normal life-and Dean showing up put a crimp in it, even though he'd already left Amelia. It was the message that the writers sent and that JP's portrayal of Sam sent also. As for DomesticDean in the bunker, Dean saw the bunker, the center of their hunting lives at the time, as his "home", thus the nesting. Sam saw it only as a workplace. They can leave it alone when Sam stops voicing the thought that he knows what Dean "deserves" as this is just another form of projecting his own feelings, wishes, and desires onto Dean, IMO. I get that we will never agree on this, and that's fine, but from what I've seen and IMO, Dean has only ever wondered about a normal life, tried to live one for Sam, and found that it was as he originally thought it would be in the episode Bugs-something that just wasn't for him. And I know that many fans of Sam don't like to admit that the first half of S8 happened and that Sam said and did the things that he did in that season, but it IS canon that Sam was still longing for a normal life as late as S8, while Dean had moved on from even wondering about it and embraced his hunting legacy even more since S6. And I don't think that there is any real need to worry that Dean would actually remind Sam of this through anything in the actual text of this show(see my snowball's chance in hell comment). It's far more likely that we'll get words from Dean that will just prop Sam some more for... something. It's been the MO of these writers since S5. So have no fear.

Did not like this one. Edited in too choppy of a fashion. I can appreciate them trying to tell the three stories, but the execution of that was horrendous. Way too much Cas torture porn. So over that. Way too much SaintlySammySue. So over that, too. And what he said about Dean in the chapel set alarm bells ringing in my head because it's exactly the same kind of nonsense that happened right before Dean was booted from the myth-arc in S5 and 8. I'm not watching DomesticatedDean again nd it will be ridiculous, IMO, if they even try to go that well again. Dean should just tell Sam that he HAS a life that he's happy with, at some point, and that hunting is the largest part of it. It is, after all, what we've been shown over all the seasons of this show. SAM is the one who has been shown to us as flip flopping on this particular issue over the course of the series-so I'd like Dean to point that out to him, again, at some point and it wouldn't hurt if he also pointed out that Sam has often projected his own feelings, desires, and failures onto Dean. But I know that there's a snowball's chance in hell of this happening, and even though it has been shown to us over and over again over the course of the series. Bah. I should know better than to hope for any kind of balance in any of the supposedly wonderful brotherly moments any more, but I can't help it. Thank God for the FF button, though; I used it a lot in this episode. Crowley and Dean and Dean and Baby Darkness were the only watchable parts for me, and there wasn't enough of them for this fan. I'm thinking that the Baby has to grow into the Adult version of the Darkness and that she still has much to learn about everything, including the bond she has with Dean. And who knows, maybe that will help to save the human host that the Darkness hijacked as an innocent babe when it was released. But this could only happen if Dean remains connected to her in this sl.

Ah well, not a botanist myself. The source was a landscaper, I think. There sure are an awful lot of different kinds, though. https://www.google.com/search?q=nightshade+flowers+poisonous&rlz=1T4GGNI_enUS569US570&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CF8Q7AlqFQoTCL2IzsiqvcgCFUrQYwodvFkLIg&biw=1440&bih=750

So the episode seemed to indicate that Dean(and Jensen) will have a myth-arc sl in s11 after all, too. Yay! for that-if it pans out.I thought we were given a similar type of bait with Abaddon when she was first introduced, but we know how that went. Still, he was singled out by physically being removed from Sam, so that's a better sign. I'm loathe to call it Chosen One status, though-at least not until after the second episode which Carver has already told us should be thought of as the second part of a two part episode. Somehow, I just can't see them leaving Sam without any Chosen One status and he's already been set-up for sainthood with that ridiculously placed and poorly written speech that came off as more of a lecture than anything else to me. Blech. Carver still has no clue how to write a balanced dialogue/discussion between the brothers and again the time and place were all wrong for anything Sam said to be taken seriously. But I'm sure this was Carver's idea of the brothers dedicating themselves back to being heroes who should be trying to save everyone-even though that is still as virtually as impossible as it was when Dean believed in it. Whatever. They now have a set-up for Sam to be the Chosen One of the Light-which is what they were going for by giving him, and him a speech to Dean that told us he still values the idea of saving everyone, while Dean clearly had forgotten and needed to be reminded. Oh, and nevermind that Sam said he would damn the entire planet all over again just to save Dean-apparently when Sam does it, that doesn't count as being uncaring or more evil than good(yup, still bitter about that Purge speech). So yet another BM(and man, I so do NOT! mean brother moment) that threw Dean under the bus to prop Sam. What a surprise-not. And people wonder why no few in the fandom have lost it entirely for the brothers together forever and ever. Sorry. Had to get the rant out first. Apart from the lecture, I actually liked the rest of the episode. Wonderful and sizzling chemistry between Dean and TD. The UST WAS off the charts. I thought he was going to take her right then and there, and part of me wanted him to, but I'm glad he didn't because yes, then the idea that the baby was his would have run like wildfire through the fandom. I never thought that was the case. I think the baby was "born" the second that the Darkness was released. I remember some discussion here about something that flew out of the black cloud right before it enveloped the Impala. I'm guessing THAT was Amara and that she took Dean to give him, yes, a sneak peek(love this!) of what she would look like when she grows up. I think the potential for this Dean storyline is amazing. He WILL save that baby and likely the child she becomes also and he will wonder if it's his own thought to do this or TD's. As was pointed out in another post, great fodder for messing with Dean's mind because saving people IS indeed the larger part of his DNA where it concerns hunting. I'm hopeful, but not falling over myself with joy and won't be until the sl is resolved and I know that he will have an active and equal part in the heroics that will no doubt be involved in saving the world again. Dean, as the inside man here, could be what makes the difference. And if there truly is a connection with him(which I totally think she feels there truly is), then yes, this could be great sl for Dean and Jensen. The mention of the cage doesn't fill me with happiness and won't if it's only about Lucifer and/or if being Michael's vessel gets handed over to Sam/JP. That's my line in the sand for this show, as my fondest wish since it was first hinted at was for Dean to allow Michael in so that we could get to see Jensen Ackles play a role that, IMO, he was born to play-The Commander of the Heavenly Host as he was described by the priest in Houses of the Holy. If they give Michael to Sam and JP, I'm out for well and good. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. I thought the Crowley stuff was hilarious-my favorite line concerning the orgy came from the husband-"I prayed on it." I LOL at that. I liked Cas' reaction to finding out that Dean was okay, but honestly, I hope that he's cured of the stupid attack dog spell sooner rather than later. I'm foolishly hoping for more Dean and Cas this season than the paltry little we've been given in the last few seasons. Oh, on more thing, I saw on another site that the purple flowers were nightshade. Lots of interesting lore attached to them including the thought that they were used as a warding against witchcraft.

What was truth was that he'd never meant to say it-not that he'd never actually felt it. I think that has always been the case every time either of them has been under a supernatural influence. I have always felt this way. And IMO, the Purge speech from Sam was purposefully written from his wholly human, albeit angry, place precisely to showcase this. And the dead calm way that he delivered it was for the same purpose. And then we got DemonDean and his "feelings" on things. So now we'll see how they handle any brotherly talks in s11. I admit to not having a lot of confidence in how the writers are going to handle this, and for that reason, more than any other, DVRing is replacing live watching for me this season as I'm anticipating much usage of the FF button when it comes to those scenes. I will be immensely happy if it's unnecessary, but I'm not betting on that. They torpedoed the brothers' relationship too thoroughly back in S4/5 for me, and they've never fixed it to my satisfaction-and this in spite of repeated claims from the writers, producers, and even the actors, that they have. My unpopular opinion here is that the part of S11 I'm least looking forward to are the brother talks and that they've never really been my favorite part of the show(I've had a problem with them often being too one-sided since all the way back to Scarecrow, tbh) and now I even dread having to see or listen to them.

Sorry, please forgive the humongous paragraphs. I tried to edit them down, but not having any luck, and no time to figure out why now. ETA: Got it.

]I honestly feel that so much of what's being discussed here is just a re-hashing of things that are never going to even be addressed by the writers-both older things and more recent. And this was actually the biggest reason that I took a sort of sabbatical from most of the boards that I used to frequent last season. It almost felt like what's the point to me. Peoples' minds are made up on almost every aspect of the show. Favorites are favorites, at this point, and will likely remain so and when I feel myself being pulled into the same old discussions and disagreements that feeling of what's the point-at this point in the storytelling-just rises up naturally now. This could change if I ever felt like we were going to get some real growth out of these two characters. But everyone's(Carver's and the cast's) description of the first few episodes just sound like another re-set to me(see spoiler)being just another we'll have Dean see the light moment, while Sam nods on sagely, comfortable in the knowledge and thought that he's finally gotten through to his always stubborn and hard-headed brother who rarely trusts Sam's decision-making skills or judgements and who has control issues that preclude him listening to his brother at times(because this description doesn't fit Sam at all<sarcasm>); and similar to what we've usually been given, IMO, in most of the brother conversations since S5 -where we got that at least three times, starting with Fallen Idols and again in PONR and yet again in the finale right before Sam employed the demon blood to take on Lucifer and save the world by falling, Jesus-like, into the big plot hole that was supposed to be the resolution to the Apocalypse sl and with the writers thus employing the grand gesture to redeem and absolve Sam of everything he'd said and done in S4 on his way to the end of that sl- a sl that was indeed a solely and completely heroic redemption sl for Sam-at least in the eyes of the writers' and most of the fandom. S5 was All About Sam in that way, IMO. As for Dean being portrayed as saint-like in s4-I think that was only the case because the writing attempted to make S4 All About Sam also and his addiction to the demon blood; but they HAD to do something about Jensen and Dean and that pesky sojourn into hell that he'd taken(and to appease those pesky fans of his, of course)-so we got a few mentions/scenes here and there regarding it, a couple of episodes that delved into it(that were admittedly great, few as they were) along with many episodes that centered around what Sam was doing with Ruby and what was going to happen with that and what was Dean going to do about that?! Cas' entrance was great, but turned out to be one huge red herring for bringing Dean into the myth-arc-as we were told in Swan Song quite pointedly. So many of those s4 episodes failed to touch on Dean's hell time, that by the end of that season, and going exclusively by the writing, one could almost have forgotten entirely that Dean had indeed gone to hell(and broke the first seal there, btw) because the Apocalypse was coming, and they had to get on with Sam's(and only Sam's) big redemption sl-yes, a redemption sl made most necessary now because of all the awful things Sam had done and said in s4-too many to even mention all of them specifically(including calling his brother weak and ineffective and a coward in one memorable scene, oh wait, under the influence of the demon blood, though-but oh wait again, he said something very similar in s9-but this time without any kind of a supernatural influence afflicting him). Guess they figured they'd just go with the one-the big one of starting the Apocalypse(while Dean could just deal with any guilt for his part in it, and yes, inadvertent as it was, off-screen; oh, and he didn't need a part in any redemption sl either because it was so inadvertent as to not even merit mentioning any longer. And really, Dean's biggest redemption needed to come from how horribly and terribly he'd treated poor put upon Sam while Sam was suffering from the demon blood addiction-the same addiction that would serve as a lynchpin in saving the world. Yay. I think I might hate S5 now more than when it first aired. I think the reason that most Deanfans are so upset with the ending of the s10 finale and Dean's loss of the MoC is that they're afraid of the same thing happening only with the Darkness replacing the Apocalypse and the MoC replacing Dean's own sojourn into hell(where he broke the first seal that set the dominoes falling, btw). Certainly the relative lack of spoilers for Dean in S11 has something to do with this. At this point, I'm over hoping that they're hiding some big sl for him that they don't want to spoil-at least in the first half of this season. I think that the best hope for Dean having another central to and supernaturally-related connection within the myth-arc sl(which as one of only three bearers of the Mark and having held back the darkness, single-handedly, since mid S9, he should most definitely have) will come in the second half of the season, IF it's going to come-and that's a big If. Still, I think that is the best hope that any fan who longs for Dean to have his own sl within the myth-arc again(and one that doesn't strictly revolve around Sam and any connection that he's going to have to it). But then the thought of what happened in S4-5 rears it's ugly head again, and who knows. The feeling I'm getting from many Deanfans now, and simply from lurking mode, is that it's best not to hope for anything if you're a fan of Dean remaining central to and supernaturally connected to the myth-arc. And DVRing with the added option of FFing and/or tossing episodes away unwatched(if they're reported as being that bad by like-minded others), is the best way to go for that segment of the fandom. I don't need to see Sam angry at Dean ever again. I'd love to see him come to the understanding that what he went through with DemonDean and MoCDean were what Dean's been going through with his family and friends consistently for most of his life-or at least from the series' inception. I loved the things that DemonDean said while being cured because if anything should have gotten Sam to do some real introspection, it would have been those things-and the knowledge that when he himself said similar types of things, they could not be dismissed so easily because they came from an actual albeit very dark place inside his human self; and that while they were things that he might not have ever said if he could help it, still he felt them and saying them DID indeed hurt his brother like hell because some of those "hard truths" in that Purge speech were truths that only Sam, the wounded human at the time, was feeling(and not that they were necessarily "genuine" truths because Dean's sacrifices hurting others, but never Dean was NOT a genuine truth-not in the least as we have seen with our own eyes many times over the course of this series-it was an AngrySam generated truth-just as much of what DemonDean said was, IMO. The things that DemonDean said are exactly what Sam should ruminate on, IMO(and even if they do just gloss over everything again-this, to me was the best part of the DemonDean sl because strictly from the writing perspective we now know that the writers DO see Sam's deepest and worst(IMO) character flaws within the brothers' relationship-his shifting of blame that has exacerbated Dean's guilt complex and what John did to Dean in that regard, from as far back as childhood; Dean's understanding that John indoctrinating them into the hunting life(and especially Dean, himself) WAS a form of brainwashing; and Dean's own extreme anger and resentment over having had to give up and over his entire childhood, and most other parts of his life also, to "watching over Sammy". And this, in addition to Dean carrying the MOC, are precisely the things that moved me to check out the boards again. They were different than anything we've gotten since s4 and made for exciting watching of this show again-at least for this fan. I truly hope that they won't drop the ball this time(and yet again) on any of this interesting Dean material.

These are my thoughts also. I've loved the show when Dean was allowed to be his own person and when Dean had the myth-arc. I'm over Dean(and more so, Jensen) being stuck in the support only role. And the only reason that he has to be stuck there is because of the writers' refusal to allow him to be as important to the supernatural element of the myth-arc as Sam. They can support each other AND both be supernaturally-connected to the myth-arc AND both have a POV thus retaining the humanity that this show is/was supposedly and primarily built on, even while being affected by the supernatural aspect. And they could do this in a way that retains each character's individuality. and the show could still go on albeit with two lead actors and two main characters instead of just the one. They had the perfect opportunity to do this very thing in S4-5 and again in S8 and again at the present time, but I'm now pretty much convinced that someone(s) BTS of this show doesn't want this, which is a shame because IMO they were on the cusp of greatness back in S4 and could have achieved it, if they would have just continued to let the story write itself, as I feel they were doing(at least as regards the myth-arc) right up until the disastrously written end of S5. I'm still hoping, foolish as that may seem, that this season will be about re-doing S5 so that both characters will have an equal part in the redemption arc that is clearly coming. We'll see, I guess. And FWIW, I love the thought of Dean as the leader of Team Free Will, if that's the primary role that the writers now think that they've written for him, but if that is indeed supposed to be his primary role, than this needs to be verbally acknowledged by the others; AND as the leader, his should be the last word when matters arise that cause dissension within the ranks-because that's the role of a respected leader in any facet of life. This doesn't mean that there can't or shouldn't be discussion, but in the end, the leader decides even when the decision is difficult and those who follow him should respect his decisions-IF they respect his decision-making ability, that is.

My first real post here. I've been checking in to see how everyone feels about the new season though. Wishing I could drum up some excitement for it after the intense disappointment of Dean losing the Mark in the finale and just when they introduced such a great backstory to it. I'm going to DVR to begin with because I'm just not thrilled at all with the spoilers we've gotten for Dean since Comic Con and he's the reason I'm still here and interested. Loved his supernatural connection to the myth-arc in s9 and 10 and not sure if I can continue watching if his role is just going to revert back to being strictly the chauffeur and everyone else's support system. The most recent Dean spoilers offered a little hope. I just hope that they were not more damage control than anything else. Mr. Ackles has always been especially clever with his wording, IMO. I'm trying to hold off on commenting in most places until the season starts but this prodded me to say something: I have to agree that in order for them to both carry a somewhat equitable amount of responsibility for releasing the darkness, the first statement here must be conveyed through the writing. Sam not being together enough at the time he learned the importance of the Mark is no more of an excuse than Dean taking on the Mark and choosing not to question all the ramifications while demons were breaking down the doors of Cain's house. I think that if we're going to be told that Dean will carry and own responsibility in that way, than true growth for the Sam character would have him carry and own his part in a similar fashion and with no half ways about it. I feel that whatever words they choose to put in Sam's mouth specifics concerning what he's done wrong in the writing of the character are now more necessary than ever(and they should coming from Sam himself, IMO) in order to even start redeeming the character. "This is all my fault" is simply yet another vague and blanket statement that these writers have consistently used to absolve Sam of everything and anything that he's ever done wrong. And it has never worked for me in the past, so why would it now. Regardless of the words they put in Dean's mouth in any of these brotherly talks we might get, it is the Sam character who needs the writing to be there for him more, IMO. I personally feel that I need to hear Sam admit that he should have listened to Dean about the Book of the Damned and yes, put a stop to the spell(and yes, just as Dean admitted that going to Cain and taking on the Mark might not have been the best thing to do; and even though Dean's intentions were also good-to rid the world of Abaddon and the threat she posed to humanity) AND I need him to recant the Purge speech entirely-including and especially the part about his belief that he wouldn't go to similar lengths and ends to save his brother-because he clearly did in S10-and then some. There can be no redemption within the brothers' relatinshp for me if these things aren't addressed by the writing for the character and without any of the usual "but it's kind of your fault too for pushing/making me to do these things, Dean"-or as DemonDean so nastily put it-for using Dean as a reason to not man-up concerning Sam's own faults and flaws and mistakes.

Myrelle here. New poster at TWOP before they decided to shut down. I've fallen in love all over again with this show because of the MoC storyline and want to discuss. Huge Jensen Ackles fan and happy to see him being given something of substance to work with again. I loved PurgatoryDean and EndverseDean so I'm looking so forward to seeing Dean with The Mark and The First Blade unleashed. Cannot wait for this hiatus to be over.