SassAndSnacks

Quoting myself to say that this feeling was short-lived. As soon as the plague ship arrived and absconded with Claire, I sighed deeply, rolled my eyes, and trudged on through the book. They are with Father Fogden now, and I feel sunburnt, sandy, and hung-over, and I didn't have any fun getting that way.

I'm fine with Sam and Cait showing the assault, but I 100% agree with your statement above. I think I read the same interview with Diana, and the reason she wrote it the way she wrote it made sense to me. I've read and thought about this episode more than what should be a reasonable amount over the last week. I think it is one of my favorites of the series, but saying that actually makes me feel uncomfortable because how could I possibly enjoy something that features a gang rape? Regarding Fergus, he doesn't know about the time travel. Lord John is told and mentions some things during his sham marriage, but he doesn't seem to actually believe it. If I recall correctly, people who know outside of the immediate family are Young Ian, Lord John, and then Claire tells all of the Murrays at Lallybroch but it's unclear whether or not they understand or actually believe her.

I mentioned in a few other threads that I'm re-reading all of the books in an effort to find some joy during the quarantine. I'm on to Book 3 (actually have been for a week or so). During my first time through this one, I read it at a blistering speed just to get the the reunion. By the end of the book, I wasn't a fan of it. The second time through didn't put this one in a better light. Prior to this voyage through Voyager, I would have placed this one as my least favorite of all the books. But, third time's a charm apparently! I'm enjoying it much more this time through. Some full disclosure things - - I hate Frank...like a lot. And I know it's petty, but Ron Moore making Frank more likable on the show makes me hate Frank even more. - I will never read the Helwater sections ever again. It's actually a hill on which I'm willing to die. The Geneva subplot is absolutely my least favorite of the entire series. I hate it more than the Christie family and the Hosebeast marriage. I hate it more than the Dismal Swamp and the Great Misunderstanding. The Christie family goes away and the Hosebeast gets what is coming to her. The Dismal Swamp eventually ends and the Great Misunderstanding leads to Mohawk Ian. But the Geneva storyline stays forever and I fucking hate it. P.S. It wasn't rape. - Yeah, the reason it stays forever - Willie. Bah. I'll comment on him when I get to the later books. Initially, I hated Jamie telling Claire the way he did in the show. But, I realized this time through that I kinda missed it. Yes, I wish his reaction to Bree would have mirrored the book more, but I like how he got it out there. - The reunion. I could read it over and over and over. Pairing that with the fight at Lallybroch. It's just damn fine writing. So, I can almost forgive Herself for Helwater after giving us the gems that are A. Malcolm and the marriage fight. Almost... I've just reached Outlanders of the Caribbean, which I'm kind of digging right now. This part doesn't seem to be dragging on as long as it seemed to previously. The show did a much better job with Willoughby. It's so cringey to read this stuff. Like, I read a racial slur in reference to his character, and then I looked furtively, as if to make sure no one saw me read it (Spoiler Alert - I'm in quarantine so no one did, but I know I have a look of incredulity on my face, questioning how something written in the 90's could be said as such). My feelings may change, but definitely more positive on this one this time through.

As well as the floor to ceiling windows, the sideboard, her dress, her desk, the artwork, etc. Claire's fantasy home is the jam (you know, dissociation aside). Contemporary Claire is pretty fabulous. From ascot-wearing and heal sliding, to rocking the F out of a cobalt sweater and tweed skirts, she's a mid-century icon. Then again, she basically kicks ass and takes names in any century.

This has been my favorite season since Season 1. So good, and I'm very much missing it tonight.

So, I'm into Book 3 now. I made it to A. Malcolm and please excuse my squeals of delight. The reunion is eh-ver-ree-thing. All of the things. DG kills me when she tears these two apart...repeatedly...but she completely restores my faith when she brings them back together. The dialogue in these three reunion chapters is so strong and so powerful. I hadn't remembered as much of it when it aired on the show, but the show did pull and use a lot of it. The writing was so beautiful, I read it twice last night. Seeing the line, "There's two of us now" was especially meaningful given Sunday's finale episode. Sigh... I'll take the remainder of my comments thus far to the Book 3 thread.

Yes! I'm a big history nerd, and I love the historical vignettes in the books. I deeply appreciate how much research DG puts into everything (granted, SOME things could be less elaborate). We see so much of history from a male perspective, simply because for generations academics and historians were male. I love that Herself shows it through a female lens. Personally, I love the back half of the book series, particularly Book 8 with its many Revolution references and plots. I'm really hoping the show makes it that far and we get to see Monmouth.

I can't get this episode out of my mind. I keep hearing the opening bass line to Never My Love and then snippets from the show flash before me. I feel weird saying that I liked the episode, but I did. The dis-association scenes (kind of an unintentional pun there) were some of the best scenes we've witnessed on the show. But, I circle back to your point above and something I mentioned previously. Why did they have to make it worse for her? They usually do such a good job of fixing the books' weaker points. Why did this need to be more traumatizing? So yeah, I actually really enjoyed an episode that featured a gang rape (that didn't actually need to be a gang rape). In fact, I thought it was a mesmerizing and beautiful episode, with such poignant, emotional moments that I will never forget. In facter fact, I love a series of books that continually feature rape plot points. In factest fact, I repeatedly read said books. Moreover, I actually feel defensive of the series when people complain about all of the rape, but for real, there's a lot of freaking sexual violence here. There's also a lot of sexual violence today, in real life. And, what I think the show does well is how it handles the act and then the aftermath with a great deal of realism and sensitivity. But, I'm still pissed they needlessly portrayed a gang rape.

I saw this as a callback to the snake bite episode, when she places her body over Jamie's to keep him warm/heal him. When they wake up that next morning, you very deliberately see her leg draped over his body, like it was here. Whatever happened between them in this scene last night, I loved. Sex, no sex, comfort, healing, simple warmth, whatever. I loved the imagery. I loved the dialogue. It was incredibly powerful.

Yes! And Claire saw the rabbit in the grass, just as Jamie did as he laid there wounded on the field at Culloden.

You’re absolutely correct about the book, and I found this to be so disturbing in the show. In the book, a teenage virgin rubbed on her skirts and went, Hodgepile beat off on her and then beat her, and then the nameless man raped her while calling her his wife’s name. When Jamie asks her who she says she doesn’t know. That’s when he says to kill them all. That scenario is bad enough. What’s to be gained by making it worse with the implied gang rape by many others? It was horrifying. Her bruises are faded enough that it should be longer than 2 days, but yeah, that seems to be the general thought. Toni and Matt wrote this one. Agree that Bree and Roger’s failed trip to the stones was a complete waste. That got a WTF and an eye roll from me. Total waste of time last week during a season that was shortened by an episode.

I’m not sure I breathed through the episode. Of all of the scenes in all of the books, Claire’s abduction is a focal point for me. I don’t know why it stands out more than the other horrific things that have happened to these people. I adore Claire and all of her brashness and her heart. And I guess when I read it I was just shocked that DG would do this to my girl. I’d also felt that at that point, DG would have moved on from rape plot points, so I was really taken aback and stunned by the whole thing at the time. This episode was gutting and moving and beautifully done. I had so been hoping that they would change the narrative here and not have her be raped. I needed the scenes in the 60s as much as Claire did to survive. For me, they were the highlight of the episode. SO much symbolism. The orange, just like after she was forced to sleep with Louis. The vase, showing that she is finally home and that this is a violation of her haven. Jamie in his normal clothes. I LOVED the call back lines - him telling her that she was shaking so hard his teeth were rattling and don’t be afraid, there’s two of us now. Him wrapping his plaid around her like Episode 1. My goodness, it was brilliant. Agreed. The visual of Claire resetting her broken nose has always stuck with me. I was so happy they included this! It’s the very last line of Book 5, and I figured they’d end the show there, but they didn’t. I loved the final shot of the two of them curled against each other. The lines Jamie says there about Claire being a brave wee thing are right from the book. We see her so battered, and he’s holding her, and it’s those quiet moments that absolutely undo me in this show. Then, the end credits with the rain... My apologies, too. I definitely eye-rolled those theories all last week.

I just finished my re-read of this, and the end simply guts me. Check that, this whole damn book guts me. So many things about this one annoy me and make me dislike the story, but it’s like DG senses that and throws something magical in there right when I’m cursing the whole bloody thing. I already mentioned my love for the Lallybroch chapters but the chapter on Prestonpans is absolutely brilliant. Yes, I will continue to put up with crap like the Old Fox just to get to the heartbreaking beauty of the farewell at the stones with Culloden pending. I will continue to exasperate my way through the boring-ass search for Gillian Edgars to make it to the final scene of Roger quietly telling her that Jamie escaped. I’ve mentioned before how with each re-read, new passages, details, and feelings jump out at me. I didn’t remember feeling this way during the previous reads, but this time I really felt Jamie’s desperation after killing Dougal. The frantic signing of the deed, hurrying Claire to the stones, the precious time at the cabin, the pregnancy revelation (sob!) all left me breathless and anxious and I KNOW well enough by now what goes down and that it eventually will be ok. It still left me so bereft and exhausted. Also, Book Roger is far superior to Show Roger. Imagine what Rik Rankin could do if Roger had been written as this character for the show! And Bree, ugh. Still a no from me. Petulant, whiney, clearly spent too much time with Frank, blah. I’m off to Book 3 now, where Bree will still be insufferable, I’ll continue to loathe Frank, the Helwater section will again be skipped, and I’ll read at a breakneck speed to visit a certain print shop.

There was another incident in the books. In short, after an incident involving lice, Jemmy had his head shaved. Roger shaved his in solidarity. They both had a mole/birthmark in the exact same place on their heads, which Claire diagnosed as hereditary. After that, and coupled with Jem’s seemingly super sensitivity to gemstones, they all surmised that he was biologically Roger’s son.

Last month, amidst pandemic stress, I went back through the stones for a third go-round through all of the books. I've noticed that each time I read through, I pick up on new things, which is so exciting. I shared my thoughts on Book 1 (love it!) on the Favorite Book Scenes Thread. I started Book 2 right away, and admittedly, this one has always been tougher for me. The opening of it is like a punch in the gut, with the reader knowing immediately that something went down. 20 FREAKING YEARS!!!! I know, it's critical to the story, but Herself almost lost me there during my first round of reading. I'm one of those people that absolutely hates it when Jamie and Claire are apart, so I find myself rifling through any sections/chapters where they are separated. As a whole, this book is most difficult for me (and Season 2 of the show was, as well) because I feel like we are racing toward an impending doom. It makes me anxious and sad. We start right off knowing that something happened and they aren't together anymore, and I always feel that lurking over me as I read through it. I read through this particular thread ages ago and gave it a skim last week, just to refresh myself on the thoughts of others. I agree with so many of you. I'm currently 75% of the way through, and it's really not my favorite. I'm enjoying it less than I did my previous two reads. I'm a Claire fangirl, and she annoyed me all through Paris. She came across as sanctimonious, belittling, and frankly whiney. Disclosure - I freaking can't stand Frank, so her woe-is-me-must-save-someone-who-hasn't-been-born-yet-even-if-it-causes-my-beloved-current-husband-undue-post-traumatic-stress bit really grated on me. Also, I loathe, LOATHE, L-O-A-T-H-E (apparently, I like hyphens tonight) the scene where Jamie comes home with bite marks from Madame Elise's. Unnecessary. But mostly, I hate how Jamie is consistently forced back into the orbit of BJR. It's weird and tropey. I get that it's a plot point, and Herself needed to increase the hatred and tension...but did she REALLY need to increase the hatred and tension? Pretty sure there was a lot of that floating around between them already. Jamie has a line when they're in Paris - "I can stand a lot! But just because I can does that mean I must? Do I have to bear everyone's weakness? Can I not have my own?" - that I think simply encapsulates his existence in this book and most of the next, and its really heartbreaking. The gang is in Edinburgh right now. Colum just kicked it. And BJR is back...again... I will say that the time spent in Lallybroch here is so beautiful and is some of the best writing of the series. I would read an entire 9 book series of Jamie and Claire digging through the dirt, planting potatoes, delivering babies, training horses, etc, which is why I enjoy Books 5 & 6 so much. I love them having a peaceful life together.

I like your outlook on this much better than mine! 🙂 Yes! I love the differing perspectives on the seriousness of the situation and the severity of people's intentions. Not that I want this to become Turn (amazing show!), but I think it's a really compelling story and one that we've been building toward in many ways since the beginning. Absolutely! We would definitely lose a layer in those relationships. I also like how Claire does come around on John and they do have their own positive relationship, contrived marriage aside.

If they plan on focusing on the Revolution in Season 6 (and include elements of Books 6 and 7, if the pattern continues from this season), wouldn't the inclusion of LJG be a prime opportunity to show conflicting viewpoints of the war? Diana did such a good job of that in the books (prose and some plot points aside), highlighting those gray areas of friend and foe and the struggles that friends and families faced regarding when, how, and if to choose sides in the conflict. It's typical fodder for any story of a civil war, which is what the Revolution is, but I still think it's compelling and draws parallels to today. Sadly, it's possible, especially with the delayed filming due to the pandemic. It has to get increasingly difficult to retain the leads every season, not because they aren't interested but because they surely must have a lot of other opportunities to consider and pursue. I feel like Sam is everywhere lately, and good for him, but there are only so many hours in a day and so much money you can offer someone.

I feel this way every week for the first several minutes of each episode. Then, I'm able to settle in. I find that certain plot lines stress me out more, particularly those of characters I just don't care about that much. Love your analysis here. I think Rik Rankin has done so well with the Roger he has been given, but the real (ok, the real fictional) Roger had more depth. He meant something to the Ridge and its people, and he was instrumental in the settling of it with Protestants. To some, he was a more important authority figure than Jamie. We missed all of that, which is fine, but it does leave Show Roger kinda one-dimensional. I thought the books were great in showing that he really had found a home there by highlighting how lost he was when he, Bree, and the kids returned to their own time. I woke up thinking all things Outlander this morning, as one does, and it occurred to me that I always pictured Book Roger differently...more cool, dashing. Intelligent, no doubt, but less academic. He wasn't as completely inept at EVERYTHING in the past, as the show has made him out to be. I, too, missed Jamie offering Claire the gem to go back, but I assumed it was because the show runners didn't want to add that cliffhanger to the mix that Claire might leave him again. And for that, I'm grateful because that really annoyed me in Season 3 when she was so wishy-washy and uncertain when she returned to the past.

This is weird. He kinda has a big plot point coming up. Do they plan on doing away with all of that altogether? I'm not a huge LJG fan, but David Berry IS LJG!

Dr. Rawlings was the original owner of the medical kit. Jamie bought it for her secondhand.

Curious why you say this. Brianna has an engineering degree from MIT (in the book) and some consulting experience after they get back to the present. I also have an engineering degree (not MIT, LOL) and experience in my field. I was an inspector/quality assurance person for years. During her interview for the job, doesn't Bree call out the hiring director, telling him that she knows no one else even remotely qualified applied for the job? She also dedicated a great deal of time studying up on the plant's construction and operations prior to the interview. I'm absolutely not a Bree fan, but I found her to be less insufferable in the 20th C. This was the only time in the whole series that I enjoyed a Roger/Bree storyline.

For those following along, I'm 63% of the way through Book 2, and it's really not my favorite. I'm enjoying it less than the previous two times through. I'm a Claire fangirl, and she annoyed me all through Paris. But, this thread is about things we like in the books, so I'll focus on the positive. I'll take my chief complaints to the Book 2 thread and try to rejuvenate some conversation over there. Feel free to follow! Positives: - Claire's red dress and Jamie's reaction. - The small (albeit too few) moments of Claire and Jamie bonding over her pregnancy. - Their time back at Lollybroch. Those chapters are beautiful. I would read 5,000 drama-free pages of Jamie and Claire doing mundane things on their Highlands estate. The chapter where they harvest the potatoes, and Claire is rocking wee Jamie is so great. This part of the book heals my soul, as it did theirs. Jamie talking in the moonlight to baby Katherine gave me the feels all over again.

So, in the last 12 hours, I've processed this episode, and I'm still teary. Is it the Covid? Am I PMS-ing? Am I eating my feelings? (Spoiler alert - yes!) For me, the most emotional episodes have been Faith, Dragonfly in Amber, and Of Lost Things. All dissolved into full-on sob fests. As one who is an avid re-watcher, I've never repeated Of Lost Things after the first time through, and I've only done Faith and DiA twice each. I prefer the more light-hearted, J&C love-filled, heart-bursting episodes. Am I alone in my feels? Yes? Fine, I'll just sit here and gorge on mac and cheese and maybe make some brownies. P.S. - Loved the scene with Claire fixing the dislocated shoulder. Shows how tough our guy is. He didn't squawk like the chap last night. And, I think Jem saw a car. Bree and Roger looked suprised because it actually worked. (Though, we did miss Roger carving cars for the kids...the "vrooms"...which is how they recognized them when they saw them when they went back through.)

Absolutely HATED the Malva Christie storyline. I place her in the same category as Laoghaire. Loathe... Very optimistic that we won’t go there, especially if the show wants to focus on the Revolution.

Seems like they’re setting the stage for the Willie plot line. Hopefully, we’re spared the Dismal Swamp exploits.