[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

1 hour ago, Meowwww said:

Check your local distilleries!  Two local ones here are making hand sanitizer.  It comes in a plain 750ml whiskey bottle.  Ours charges 10 bucks for that big bottle.  I bought two, mixed it 2/3 sanitizer with 1/3 aloe (pure) and have a ton of bottles of sanitizer.  And a bottle and a half left of the straight sanitizer.  It went a really long way. 

Just as a thought to consider, adding that volume of an inactive ingredient has dramatically diluted the effectiveness of the solution.  Can't remember for absolute certain but I believe the WHO recommends minimum of 70% concentration for the active ingredient.  Even if the hand sanitize was 100% alcohol (and I can pretty much guarantee it was not) adding 1/3 aloe brought the concentration down to 66%.

And I say this as one who is a bit of a skeptic, as I so recently pointed out at length.  Just want to pass along something to think about for those who want to be sure they are following published safety and health guidelines.

[S01.E17: Regatta Go!]

59 minutes ago, The Ringo Kidd said:

There was no drug conviction. There were no drugs. Just a search that never should have happened based on the word of an incompetent stew.

Captain Glen let a bunch of Meatheads run wild and didn’t do shit. But I guess he found someone he could intimidate. And be praised for it.

I think I would never go on a boat that Captain Glenn was involved with after this.

That statement is immaterial.  In many countries the need to prove cause before a search can be done is, as the saying goes, a "foreign concept" and not required.  Search and seizure can be done ad hoc and at random and without the need to apologize or compensate when and if nothing is found.  Heck even in the US you can be searched with even the flimsiest of reasons, if a law enforcement officer thinks maybe possibly he/she got a slight wiff of something illegal you can be subject to search.  Moreover, this was not a search for criminal or even civil prosecution so your protections even in the US are minimal, this was private property.  The owner or his/her/their representative can ask you to leave for virtually any reason, you do not have a RIGHT to be there even if you have prepaid for the privilege.  

[S01.E17: Regatta Go!]

23 minutes ago, The Ringo Kidd said:

He had a choice. He could have told Captain Glenn to fuck off. Sure he could have thrown him off the boat. Off the TV show. On the basis of what Jenna and Chris had to say.

I don’t think it makes you an “Ugly American” because you stand up for your rights. I don’t understand how anyone could think that this is ok. 

There were no drugs. There was nothing but a Scheana edit to hype up drama. What a bunch of bullshit.

The key here is that they are NOT in the US.  Trying to impose our will, and insisting on getting what we want regardless of where we are or under whose proverbial roof we stand, is what makes someone an "ugly american".  What you are presenting falls under "civil rights" and US Civil Rights do not come into play when you are outside of the US, despite what many of us might want or believe to be an "inalienable right", outside of the US they just, plain and simple, are not...

THE U.S. BILL OF RIGHTS IS NOT UNIVERSAL

Americans should not take their basic rights for granted when they travel abroad. For example, in Japan there is no appreciation of the rights guaranteed to American citizens by the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth Amendments to the Bill of Rights. Among other things, Japanese police can search citizens at will, an arrested suspect can be detained without bail for up to 28 days before a prosecutor must bring him before a judge, and suspects who insist on standing trial do not have a right to a jury.

About 3,000 Americans are arrested abroad each year. Of these, approximately one-third are held on drug charges. Many countries have stiff penalties for drug violations and strictly enforce laws.

Be warned! Americans are subject to foreign, not United States, laws overseas, and you have no U.S. constitutional rights. If arrested, you will find that: Few countries provide a trial by jury; pretrial detention is often in solitary confinement and may involve months of incarceration in prison conditions that lack even minimal comforts – bed, toilet, and wash basin; officials may not speak English and trials are conducted in the language of the foreign country; prison diets are often inadequate and require supplements from relatives and friends; and physical abuse or inhumane treatment is possible.

Drug convictions can result in life imprisonment or the death penalty in some countries. Persons required to take medication containing narcotic drugs should carry a doctor’s certificate attesting to the fact and should keep medicines in their original and labeled containers. Commonly used medications such as amphetamines, barbiturates, codeine, captagon, and many other substances that are not considered drugs in the United States may be considered drugs elsewhere. To avoid potential problems, the Bureau of Consular Affairs advises that travelers carrying such medicines should consult the embassies of the countries they will visit before leaving the U.S.

source: Anthem Law

[S01.E17: Regatta Go!]

4 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

It happens, drug smuggling is no joke and countries have no problem impounding valuable yachts. Lee recounts how early in his career (he was not the captain) the boat he was working on got boarded by the coast guard because of suspicion of drugs. The ship was confiscated and he got dragged all the way back to Miami to testify. That’s one of the reasons he’s so strict now. Watch season 1 episode 1 of Below Deck - passengers were found with drugs and Lee threw them off the ship ASAP. Glenn was actually offering a courtesy by searching the bags to verify because he was well within his rights to just chuck them off the boat right there and completely end the charter.

As for them being American (and Glenn Canadian), that doesn’t mean shit. Try to pull that card and you’ll get laughed at. They’re on a British flagged ship in Greek waters subject to international maritime law, as well as charter company policy and any rules the boat owner laid down. The US Constitution means nothing here.

Seriously, go watch Locked Up Abroad to see how even tiny amounts of drugs or just being in the company of a drug smuggler can land you in a very bad prison for a long time, even if you’re American. Except for finding a lawyer and contacting your family, the US embassy will not help you if you’re detained in a foreign country for drugs. The rest of the world is not the US.

ahh, but an obscene number of us seem to believe being American somehow affords us some special dispensation and why much of the world see us as self indulgent, self righteous, and entitled.  

[Janelle Brown: Smarter Than Your Average Brown (Maybe)]

@Roslyn I think you are my spiritual twin.  

[Janelle Brown: Smarter Than Your Average Brown (Maybe)]

11 hours ago, deirdra said:

I like the idea of chamomile tea, but hate the taste too, so I'd never buy it.  So if you order on Monday and pick it up on Sunday, how "fresh" are the market foods? I doubt they can wait until the last minute to pick and pack a week's worth of orders for Sunday pickup.

Preparing CSA boxes is not that much more intensive than preparing for a booth.  Plus your clientele are more reliable and you end up with less waste.  This may not be exactly CSA but quite similar and it's far better to have some customers than none at all and on the plus side the vendor may end up with new permanent CSA clients in the long run. 

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

33 minutes ago, Pickleinthemiddle said:

While in my local Kroger I was going through the health section and saw two side counters full of what looked like Gin or Vodka 🤣.  Low and behold it was hand sanitizer.  It was a liquid, it was not mixed with a gel.  But i only paid $9.00 for 1 liter.  A few weeks back I paid the same price for 6 ounces at the local 7-11.  

I lucked out with my shopping today.  Found disinfecting wipes, and lysol spray, it was a limit of one of each.

My cousins have a distillery and converted their lines to make hand sanitizer sometime in early April.  It's been hugely successful and has helped supply their region.  If they were to add a gelling agent, it would lower the concentrations below WHO recommendations to combat the corona virus.

Since they generally run alcohol, their bottling is provisioned for their brand bottles so that's what their hand sanitizer is bottled in as well.

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

7 minutes ago, ChristmasJones said:

For anyone who enjoys podcasts and would appreciate a scientific discussion about the virus, there is a great podcast which is hosted by three virologists. Its been around for years (they have over 600 episodes), but shifted to exclusively discussing coronavirus in January.  Its called This Week in Virology - https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/     While some of the scientific information goes over my head at times, its become my preferred source for staying up to date on the virus. Its enjoyable to listen to - they all have nice voices and a sense of humor, so its serious without being dry and boring.

 

Thank you.  I'll definitely check it out!

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I'm aware of this but I do think that flattening the curve and seeing the curve go downhill could mean fewer overall cases, not just slowing down the same overall number.  Unfortunately it means not becoming complacent and sticking to the social distancing and other measures for a longer period than is comfortable or else the numbers will start to rise again.  The people that are the most vulnerable will need to engage in self isolation longer.  If they all went back to living like before, sure, the overall numbers would be the same as if no measures were taken, they would just add up over a longer period of time.  But if people still engage in some important mitigation efforts I do think it will lower the overall number in the big picture.  Hopefully this will have enough of an effect to keep overall cases at a lower number until such time that a vaccine or other treatment is developed.

I've been aware of these things too but this virus is so insidious it continually seems to defy logic.  I don't know if it was posted here but I saw an article that discussed a few cases where a lot of contact tracing was done.  One was in an office and another in a restaurant.  One desk or table got the virus the other didn't and it didn't even seem to make any sense when one looked at the way the air ventilation traveled.  And some people at one table got it while others didn't.  I have heard this virus called "capricious".  I agree.  I also think there are other factors such as how susceptible any individual is to catching the virus based on their own medical conditions and DNA.  Those factors could also make someone more likely to get it under the same circumstances as someone else with a different DNA "hand" and immune system.

Now I know that drawing comparisons between this and the flu isn't advised, but I can think of several times in my young life where I was at an event or party in close contact with someone that I later realized I caught the flu from (because they were the only person that could have given it to me).  None of my other friends, who were just as close to them got the bug.  Only me.  

Once when I was young I was sick and my boyfriend at the time was so crazy about me he didn't care and didn't stay away from me.  He never got sick.  Neither of my parents got sick despite living in a small apartment with them.  In fact, I would often get colds and flus and my parents never caught them from me even though I breathed in the same stale apartment air with them all the time.

Last September my husband the limo. driver brought home some strange virus from an overseas passenger that in retrospect suspiciously resembled the symptoms of Covid-19.  We both got sick only he had a glancing blow while I was flat on my back for over a MONTH.  So speaking of antibodies, I keep telling him we should get antibody tests because now I'm reading that they think the original form of the virus could have been around since last September in a less contagious and virulent form.

There was also another article that may have been posted here that listed the worst offending places for catching the virus and of course the smaller the room, the longer the contact, the higher the odds.  Even larger rooms can be as bad if there are more people in them talking and or otherwise breathing heavier.

About 4 years ago I caught the flu from my doctor.  Ironically I went to him to get a flu shot.  He gave me the shot instead of the assistant that time.  I was only in the room with him for a few minutes.  A day later I started feeling sick and I knew it had to be from him because I had been isolating at home due to recovering from a broken arm and related surgery.  BTW, my husband, who shares constant space and a bed with me never caught it.  I still can't believe that. 

So now I will have a fear of going to the doctor (he's only seeing people virtually now anyway).  I don't care how many masks a doctor wears.  Another article I read showed in special photography how masks are less effective than people think at preventing the droplets from getting to you.  Sure, you'd have to be close to them to be affected, but getting a haircut qualifies as that close.  A lot of activities would qualify as that close, and some are ones that my state is currently opening up in phase 1!

Also, I have nightmares at night about going into the elevator in my father's building.  Or having to walk past someone in the stuffy hallway.  I've already posted about that.  There are many situations that qualify as risky.  Going into a rest room where someone just spent several minutes and the air is still heavy with their breath is another one.  I am not young enough to go out and not have to go at least once during the day.  If I drive down to NYC where will I go to the rest room after a 2 hour drive?  Even my "favorite" rest stop will feel risky.

So yeah, I am still afraid.  Knowledge can be a double edged sword.

Once again, all fair points, all valid, and all have merit.  And you are absolutely correct in your assertion that susceptibility to any contagion is at least in part due to one's own physiology as is their body's response once the individual becomes infected.

I too believe, as you do, that this virus or some form of it was present since at least last September although I can find no reliable source to hang my hat on.  Further, once again, even if it emerged earlier than the current narrative claims, we will not know about it for quite sometime as it disrupts the commentary and would require the world to find a new patient 0 and originating source.

My only slightly contrary thought is to point out that I think, as it pertains to this particular discussion regarding the transmission of the virus, comparison to an influenza virus is quite relevant.  In that regard they are similar in that both are transmitted from person to person in a very similar manner, with a primary difference being their respective virulence.

eta:  I forgot to highlight your quote  "Knowledge can be a double edged sword" - so true, so very very true!

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

20 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Not to be contrary, but actually this doesn't help ease my fears.  I have learned to remain skeptical about anything the CDC or media report as "new" knowledge.  The so-called knowledge keeps getting revised and contradicted, and the public becomes confused and naturally skeptical.

Also, there is the matter of emphasis and interpretation.  Note that the operative word in those bullet points above is "mainly".  The virus is mainly spread between people in close contact, supposedly by the droplets in the air.  "Mainly".  That doesn't mean to me that the possibility doesn't still exist to some lesser but to date unknown degree, that the virus could still be spread through touching surfaces where these droplets have landed.  The truth is that they still don't know to what extent this is possible if it is possible.  They are only saying that the virus is mainly spread through close contact without saying anything about surfaces.  That's because they really don't know enough yet about surfaces.  The virus could still spread by touching surfaces, they just don't know how common or uncommon this is.  Maybe they think it's less common, but how do they really know it's that insignificant yet?  I don't think they really do.  Unfortunately the way it is reported is misleading, just like a lot of Covid-19 reporting.  When they say "there is no evidence to support" something it doesn't mean they've evaluated all reasonable sources of evidence and concluded that finding no evidence means it doesn't exist.  It just means they haven't uncovered any possible evidence yet, and the truth is that they really don't know.  They could be drawing conclusions prematurely based on insufficient evidence.  This virus is so new I don't think they have enough evidence yet to come to some of these conclusions.

I read that a pretty amazing percentage of recent cases have come from people who say that they have been isolating at home.  Now of course this is based on self-reporting which is notoriously unreliable, but for those that were telling the truth or weren't mistaken, the virus had to get into them somehow.

Plus common sense and experience with other viruses has always pointed towards the possibility of catching them from surfaces.  Until there is enough evidence to convince me to the contrary with Covid-19, I will continue to sanitize my hands, my groceries, and quarantine my mail for a day or so.  From just the anecdotal evidence I have read, you can't be too careful with this virus and it's better to be safe than sorry because they really don't know enough about it yet.

My father caught and later died from this virus while staying home.  He hadn't been out of the house in well over a month when he got it.  He said his caregivers came in looking like "space aliens" because they were wearing so many masks and gowns, etc.  This virus is highly contagious, probably more contagious than any virus any of us has known in our lifetimes.  To me that means not counting out any common avenue for transmission until there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence to exclude it.  I personally don't find anything in that article that's going to ease any of my fears.  I think these organizations and the media want to look like they a) know something they really don't and b) are able to report something when they really don't have any real news.  I think it is going to be some time before the CDC or any organization knows just exactly how this virus spreads, by what means, and to what degree by each of the means.  I realize you will probably not agree with me and I respect your opinion and your good intentions for posting the article anyway.

All fair points, all are valid, and all have merit.  I too am mostly skeptical about most of the information that is being brought forward and I even postulated somewhere that I don't think we will have a true and accurate picture for at least 5 years mainly because it's going to take at least that long for researchers, scientists, agencies, the media and others to regain their impartiality.  I also agree that in the big scheme of things very little is truly known with certainty.  Moreover, I do not think that all the actions that were taken were in vain and completely uncalled for.  I do however believe the response could and should have been more measured and more targeted.  I do also believe that spinning the populace into a frenzy served a purpose and once they claimed their hill to stand on it had to be defended at all costs.  So yeah, I completely agree with your statement "organizations and media want to look like they a) know something they really don't and b) are able to report something when they really don't have any real news."

[Maddie Brown: Seeking a One-Woman Man]

1 hour ago, deirdra said:

Mine was the 70's and we made do with what he had or could borrow or scrounge for free to live within our means.  My bookshelves and furniture consisted of milk crates (borrowed) and old trunks for the first 10 yrs. It kills me to see people the age I was then on HGTV shopping for their first home and expecting it to be their dream home with stainless steel appliances and granite countertops.  It took me until age 26 to afford a car, 33 to afford a house, and 65 to afford brand new appliances and quartz countertops (all paid for with cash, except the house w/30% down). 

Amen Sister!!

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

Sure but flattening the curve does not equate to fewer overall cases in the long run it means to spread the number of cases over a longer period of time so as not to overwhelm the health care system.  If we all recall, that was the original objective of the stay at home orders, it was not to reduce overall case load.  As @DakotaJustice said above in reference to California "if we hadn't done some form of stay at home, a lot of places would have ended up like northern Italy or NYC with terribly overloaded hospitals and people dying at home or in hospital corridors".  The virus is not going away the best we can hope for, unless or until a vaccine is developed, is a mutation that makes it less transmissible or less lethal.

And to elaborate a bit on my earlier mention of the feasibility of transmission of the virus while passing by another person.  There is a lot more to viral transmission than just proximity, as with all contagions, also to be considered at minimum is viral load, air movement, humidity, temperature, size of the carrier droplet, the velocity of the droplets, and the duration of exposure.

To demonstrate in the most basic of terms the likelihood of transmission is obviously greatest with high viral load, small airborne droplets, in a stagnant enclosed small space over a an extended duration.  

To put the human petri dish into the equation, for illustrative sake let's take an asymptomatic high load carrier; the most common ways that individual will expel viral loaded droplets includes (listed from smallest, highest velocity, greatest distance carried):

• sneeze
• cough
• laugh
• talk
• breathe (open mouth)
• breathe (through nose)

So if you are standing directly in front of and facing said individual while in a small enclosed, stagnant space and that individual sneezes, yep, you have most definitely been exposed even if you cover your mouth and nose and leave immediately.

If you are in a medium ventilated medium sized room for say an hour with said individual and you are in opposite corners of the room while you both are talking, laughing, and asymptomatic individual coughs and sneezes occasionally you may be exposed due to duration and somewhat confined space.

However, if you are walking outdoors on a lightly breezy day, with the sun shining, and high humidity and said individual simply walks past you without talking and even brushes against you, your chances of exposure are essentially nil.

All this to say, at least initially, I would hear people talk and worry and fret thinking that 1) the virus was rampant and most of the population was destined to get it and 2) if/when they got it, they were destined to die.  One of my aunts is a prime example of this erroneous belief - she insisted for weeks my other aunt (her sister) could not have possibly had the virus because if she had she would be dead.  Well guess what, my other aunt was tested for the antibodies and indeed she tested positive - it took that for the first aunt to concede that perhaps her initial understanding was misguided. 

I am not trying to inundate people with information but knowledge is a great fear reducer and fear reduction is not only good for one's well being it is good for those around us and for the community.

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

As promised, here's the report I mentioned above... (of course this specifically mentions influenza but rarely do response activities significantly change based upon a specific contagion - medical treatment changes, obviously, response does not.  Much like response to a fire is similar regardless of the initiating event or fuel source, what you pour on it may change but the response is relatively the same.  And it shouldn't need to be said but scale will change based upon severity and spread but response activities are still relatively similar.  All good response plans must be scaleable)

Disease Mitigation Measures in the Control of Pandemic Influenza

In my search, I also came across this interesting recent article that some of you may be interested in.  The first mention of the term "social distancing" was in a 2006 paper written by a complex-systems analyst with no medical training and was based upon a research project his 14 yr old daughter completed for her high school.  I don't know whether to be impressed or appalled that our current state of affairs is in part due to a high school project.

The 2006 Origins of the Lockdown Idea

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

I'm not saying "social distancing" doesn't have it's place.  In my professional capacity, I have been advocating a version of "social distancing" for the better part of 2 decades - way before it was referred to as such.  Way back in 1999 I created my organization's first pandemic response plan and low and behold it included, among other things, what is commonly being referred to as social distancing.  Moreover, since then I have created, updated, maintained, and/or revised more than 2 dozen such plans, all having as a component personal space guidelines.   Busy times were always when some emerging health threat began moving to the forefront i.e. avian flu, swine flu, SARS, MERS, Ebola, and now corona.  Unfortunately, when something is emerging it is not an ideal time to begin determining action and response plans.  These activities are driven as reactionary rather than well thought out and proactive which leads to hasty and frequently misdirected actions.

Additionally, all my plans included directives for stockpiling and rotating PPE and other such necessary supplies as it was well know that at minimum regional but more likely national supplies would be depleted and government stock piles were already earmarked for specific needs and use.

Never did I dream the world would shut down for a disease outbreak especially since, I think in 2006, a government report specifically advised against it since it was believed that such an action would in the long run be ineffective and in the medium to long term be devastating.  I'll see if I can find that report and post it.

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

Maybe this will help ease some fears,...

CDC now says coronavirus isn’t easily spread by touching surfaces

In addition to the headline another two things of note (which has long been known to be the case and promoted by the CDC even though the message has not been well distributed) - emphasis mine

• The Food and Drug Administration said last month there was no evidence to suggest the virus can spread through food, or what it’s wrapped in and that there was no need to wipe down groceries.
• The agency continues to note that the virus is thought to mainly spread from person-to-person — even by those not showing symptoms.  
  Specifically, it mainly spreads between people who are in close contact, within 6 feet of each other, when someone with the infection coughs, sneezes or talks, causing droplets to land in another persons mouth or nose.

So in other words, unlike Pig Pen's dust cloud, the virus is not an invisible cloud that surrounds people allowing it to maliciously jump from person to person and infect them, even if said person walks past another and even brushes against them.  Hopefully we can stop looking at every stranger, and sometimes even family members, as the enemy with malevolent intent to infect us causing us to dodge into alley ways, door ways, and behind cars to avoid them, especially since outdoor transmission is thought to be unlikely.

[Meri Brown and her Wet Bar of Tears]

48 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

 

ok that's an awesome quote and one I have never seen.  I'm stealing it!

[Maddie Brown: Seeking a One-Woman Man]

32 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Now that's a real smile. I know of organizations that use horses for therapy for ADHD kids.  I volunteered with a group that helped PTSD vets learn to ride.  Looks like Axelbrush might be a candidate, he looks truly happy there.

I know, I know.......assumptions.  Just happy he found something that pleases him.

Yes Hippotherapy!  It is wonderful!  My son who has an intellectual disability as well as physical differences benefited from hippotherapy sessions.  It stood in for physical therapy, occupational therapy, cognitive therapy, as well as mental and emotional stimulation.  Fantastic!

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

26 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

This is me.  I want a $%^# haircut and I want to go to the library.  I do not want to spread a virus or endanger anyone else, but I miss feeling "normal" and I miss browsing books on shelves.  What's interesting are the things I don't miss - wandering into Home Goods on a Saturday afternoon and spending $40 on things I don't need, running around like a freak show every weekend trying to accomplish all of my perceived "errands," etc.  There are things I most definitely miss and things that, once things go back to whatever "normal" looks like, I probably won't do as much as I used to.  Which I think, ironically, will make me a better and more balanced human.  When so much is taken away and then slowly given back, you certainly realize what feeds your soul and what doesn't.

 

LOL, totally made me laugh, particularly the "run around like a freak show".  hahaha.  Thank you!  I know exactly what you mean.

So I'm a relatively simple, solitary, quite, introverted, late middle age, family oriented single mother who believes she was born in the wrong part of the country in the wrong era.  I do all those old timey things, grow much of my own food, including herbs, chickens for eggs and medicinals, preserve and can most of my produce, cook almost exclusively from scratch, including making my own yogurt, buttermilk, peanut butter, bread, sour cream, many cheeses, stock, and many other "staples".   I sew extensively, do needle and yarn crafts, some carpentry and other home maintenance and improvement, and I prep and prepare and stock away supplies, food, and other necessities "Just in case..."  I even cut my own hair, my son's hair, and used to cut my daughter's (then she became a teenager and well....)!  In the past when I was able to work from home, it was not unusual for me to stay home for weeks at a time and be quite content.  Then came the "stay at home" orders and while I obviously am quite capable of it, I no longer want to, I feel the unnatural need (for me anyway) to GET THE HELL OUT!  And I'm quite certain it's not because I am uncaring or unconcerned about those around me, it's because the involuntary confinement is doing a vicious dance on my psyche.

One thing that warms my heart to no end about all this though is seeing all the families reconnect, being together, and enjoying each other.  People out of necessity, are simplifying; of which I believe the benefits are immeasurable.  I hope beyond hope that at least some of this family appreciation and togetherness sticks around becomes an integral part of society again.

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

8 minutes ago, Teafortwo said:

@sharkerbaby I appreciate differing points of view. One of the great things about this board and this thread is that the vast majority of posters are able to maintain a civil conversation even when disagreeing.  I will say I understand the economic devastation. What irks me though is that some people who are the most vocal protestors of things like hair salons and stores being shut down,  are would-be patrons, not workers in those places, so it's as if they're saying "others should risk their lives to provide me (the consumer)  with a service." Same thing when meat plant workers are forced to go back to work too soon. We could all switch to other protein sources for a few weeks if meat supplies got short. 

See that's the thing though, it's not so easy to switch to an alternative for a few weeks and the up and downstream impacts of closing a single meat plant is vast.  

I really don't believe people are saying "others should risk their lives to provide me (the consumer) with a service".  That's a very easy axe to wield though as well as an effective one because the counter argument is complex and can't be summarized in a few quick quips.  In that respect (and that respect alone) it's a bit like accusing someone of being homophobic - the result is an immediate end to the discussion because it's quite difficult to prove a negative.

The shot that is so frequently flung is that someone "wants a haircut"... it's not that they want a haircut so desperately that they want to put the hairdresser at risk and hope to spread disease, it's that they want some sense of normalcy.  We are not built for this, we are primates and primates live in tribes.  We are instinctually a tribal animal so isolation has a tremendous affect on us - that's why solitary confinement in jails and prisoner camps are utilized. 

Moreover, it's not just the patrons that are wanting salons open, owners do to and not just for their own selfish reasons.  Most are small business so the owners and staff become very close and think of themselves as an extended family.  When the owner can't sustain the business he or she is taking away the livelihood of the employees and close friends.  Did you hear about the salon owner in Texas who went to jail because she felt she needed to open?  She stated she would not apologize because “Feeding my kids is not selfish. If you think the law is more important than kids getting fed, then please go ahead with your decision, but I am not going to shut the salon.”  She was shortly thereafter released.

As far as meat plants, other agricultural related issues, and the food supply chain in general.  Vast amounts of crops, milk, livestock, and other materials are being plowed under, left to rot, disposed of, dumped and euthanized because our infrastructure is not built to just switch over to alternate sources of protein, dairy, produce, etc. We may have the same number of mouths to feed but we do not have the systems in place to accomplish the task as we are trying to now.  The distribution system, the packaging system, the slaughter houses, the overall supply chain is not equipped and not easily converted to supply grocery stores only.  We are just now seeing the food shortages that are a result of this.  And food supply is not like toilet paper where you can relatively quickly ramp up production.  You can't just run a farm 24 hours and get a quick restock of cattle, chickens, cucumbers, lettuce, etc.

ack, I'm getting notifications galore, I suspect I'm going to be busy

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

3 minutes ago, Kyanight said:

THIS described me exactly - although regarding a much different topic.  I posted here for YEARS before I admitted I was an ex-first wife, because of the "temperature" of the board and the open disdain and dislike for "sheep" sister wives.  I thought I would be hated and that people would be mean to me.  Everyone has been pretty darn decent, despite how they feel about the subject - and many of them have VERY strong feelings about polygamy and the people involved.  There are a few people who I feel dislike me, possibly for reasons that don't have anything to do with polygamy - life is just like that.

Having said that - I think the majority of us are very respectful for those who have different viewpoints.  You won't be called any names here, and no one will shoot arrows at you.  We DO see your side of the coin.  It's just that many of us are elderly.... or some are older middle-aged and must still work and the virus poses a greater threat.  We just express our fears about catching this and dying from it - even if this virus doesn't turn out to be the great threat they are thinking it is at this time - it is still a most horrible way to die.  I love to breathe, I can't imagine having my lungs full of fluid.  Maybe no different from pneumonia - but no thank you.   

So we all post here about our fears and our worries and our day to day stresses... and many of those have to do with Economics, as well.  So please feel free to talk about YOUR viewpoints and worries and stresses and fears and know that we will listen and understand YOUR side as well - because your side is just as valid!

 

Thank you!  I think I might cry.  

I hope you don't think I am one of those who dislike you.  I find you and your story very fascinating and once again find myself on the opposite side of a good deal of posters here as I believe under the right circumstances and with the right people polygamy is doable.  So for that reason alone I highly value your insights.  I have actually considered a polygamous relationship but personalities just didn't mesh in the end.  If I were to compare myself to one of the Brown's as far as approach and attitude towards this lifestyle I'd probably be the Janelle of the family as I don't necessarily need or even want the man all to myself (I find them to be too much work and far too needy) but I definitely am attracted to the security and comfort of having a close knit small group that is inexorability tied together with a vested interest in all succeeding and thriving.

Also, I do know what it's like to not be able to breath, one of those tick marks I mentioned above... I have severe asthma and you're right it is quite painful and during a severe attack I am far too focused on getting air to think about anything else so I do not remember ever experiencing fear despite the fact that on at least two occasions doctors have stated I was very near death.

But thanks again for your words, they mean a lot!!

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I would remind those people that I think about all women when I think about these issues.  Like where are any of us going to shop now if we need a dressy dress or a coat or something nice to wear somewhere?  I know you know this, but it's never just about me when I think about those things.  This kind of criticism is just a way for some people to invalidate the concerns of women, IMHO.  I am sorry but I am seeing things in those terms lately.  Just like the clueless lawmakers that don't realize the relative differences or similarities between services women get in nail vs. hair salons, those same people are equally as clueless and uninterested in anything related to women's clothing.  If it doesn't matter to THEM, it doesn't get any attention or respect.  Like they couldn't care less if department stores close because they don't shop in them.  But when their wives or whoever shops for them can't find their favorite shirt or pants anymore then suddenly they'll wake up when it's too late.  But to be honest most of them probably don't even get merchandise from the affected stores because they are too rich to buy there.  I remember one candidate who claimed last fall that his shirt came from Kohls.  Hey at least he knew where his shirt came from and actually wore stuff from the average person's clothing stores.  Unlike some of them that are so removed from middle class stuff that it's not even on their radar.

I hope you didn't take my response as an implying that I thought you were being "selfish, uncaring, ignorant, and only concerned about themselves".  Quite the opposite, I had myself in mind as the one who would be labeled as such because unlike almost everyone here, I fall on the side of the spectrum that believes the measures taken were and are too extreme and should have been far more measured and targeted.  When I have expressed this view elsewhere, I have been told I am all those things and more.  I purposely laid low here and did not share my thoughts because when I read posts here, those sentiments were quite prevalent and stated quite explicitly so I opted for the cowardly route rather than making myself a large shining target for the the arrows that were generally cast in mass.  Thereby, I was taking glancing blows rather than direct hits.

Let me state right up front, this has been a devastating disease and has had a tremendously tragic effect on people worldwide.  The death and despair have been horrendous and I feel deep sorrow for all that has been wrought upon people everywhere.  Like many here, I too have been directly affected by this virus and am grieving for relatives.  Additionally, I, and both of my children, tick more than one criteria for be amongst the most vulnerable population so no, I do not take COVID-19 lightly nor do I believe it's a hoax nor do I think I and mine are "safe".

But I also believe people's livelihoods are important and has a great deal of impact on their overall well being and should be considered when making "shut down" and "stay at home" orders.  There is most definitely and a long recognized phenomenon referred to as "deaths of despair" (most frequently suicide and drug use and overdose).  This state of mind can be directly attributed to, among other things, economic ruin.   It's been stated, more than once, that ones financial stability and businesses can be rebuilt and that income loss is survivable whereas frequently the coronavirus is not.  I do not believe one life should be traded for another and this approach smacks of labeling someone who is mentally devastated by financial loss and sees no way to recover as weak and cowardly.

I further believe the  economic costs (locally, nationally, and globally) are going to be felt far longer, more extensively, and far more severely than anyone currently will admit.  We are a global economy with dependencies, connections, and intersecting lines that are so complex and extensive that it's nearly impossible to understand the radiating fissures that result from putting pressure on just one seemingly minor component of this behemoth.  We have not just "put pressure on one minor component", we have crippled whole swatches of industry, retail, service, manufacturing, even agriculture on an international scale.  Nothing and no one will come out of this unscathed.

To illustrate, some of this is anecdotal but is easily seen with a little observation; the average parent is not equipped to home school and school directed e-learning is not nearly as effective as a classroom model therefore the education delay for all levels of students is going to be significant, doctors and nurses are being furloughed across the country, many rural hospitals are closing or at risk of closing, unemployment has skyrocketed and many of those jobs will never come back, a high percentage of those job losses are those least able to afford a disruption of income, many cancer patients are missing chemotherapy treatments whether out of fear or other reasons, organ transplants have taken a dive because a significant number of these are considered "elective" surgeries, pediatric vaccinations are down again generally out of fear to go to the doctor, "deaths of despair" are projected to spike, UN World Food Programme predicts by year end the number of people facing acute hunger will double to 265M, and (one that is generally sneered at) our freedoms and liberties are being trampled on and I fear will forever be altered (give an inch they take a mile) we have proven we will give things up with little resistance.

And while I'm laying myself bare I might as well also share my belief that yes, while this virus is highly contagious, I do not believe it is nearly as fatal as we have been led to believe.  I think when we have finally come out of this and have found ways to live with the virus, and researchers are able to impartially study the outbreak, they are going to find that the lethality rate is far less than was initially thought. The reactive response was driven primarily due to the fact that this was new, unknown, fast spreading, and seemingly untreatable - all very scary things.  Unfortunately, I think  it's going to be at least 5 years before we will be able to really know this because it is far too hot of a topic and far too polarized to get impartiality. 

So there you go, now you all know I am a heartless, souless, despicable human being, let the roasting begin....

 

eta: oh and yes, I agree completely that most of the decision makers are far removed from the average population and really have little foresight into the consequences of their directives.  Further, I think their primary concern is staying in power so their motivations, posturing, and messaging is with this intent rather than for the "good of the people".  At least business owners (big, small, and everything in between) generally realize that they need the "little people" to keep their business running.

[Meri Brown and her Wet Bar of Tears]

49 minutes ago, deirdra said:

I'm assuming cotton washcloths would have a similarly large energy-consuming life-cycle as cotton grocery bags. Comparing resources and energy-consuming life-cycles, a 2018 Danish study looked at the number of times a bag should be reused before being used as a garbage-can liner and then discarded and found that: polypropylene bags (most of the green reusable bags found at supermarkets) should be used 37 times; paper bags should be used 43 times, and cotton bags should be used 7,100 times. Cotton fields have to be tilled, seeds planted, irrigated, harvested, carded, woven into cloth, cut and sewn, and transported to their destinations (and each bag weighs a lot more than polypropylene, so higher fuel costs).  Then they have to be washed once in a while until used 7100 times, if they last that long. Paper bags  are made from lumberyard waste, not trees grown just for that purpose.

You could make washcloths out of polypropylene, but they'd be non-absorbent & useless.  One-use paper products, like a square or two of toilet paper to remove makeup get my vote. Though I wear so little makeup and it is mostly worn off by the time I clean my face, so there is little residue to remove.

Thank you!  I'm going to print this, laminate it, and pull it out every time someone berates me or anyone else for using makeup remover pads.  It'll be awesome to have a retort when they point me to the plethora of websites (including at one time the FDA and EPA - new administration changed focus), virtually all siting peer reviewed studies that say these wipes are horrible for the environment and should definitely not be used. 

I am NOT an environmentalist so it'll be awesome to have a counter argument.  Now I'll just have to find a retort to the inevitable reply about the corresponding manufacturing, packaging, transportation, sewage and landfill impact,  chemical leaching, etc that is associated with disposable make-up pads and other single use cleaning products.  Thank you again.

[Leon Brown: So Here's Me]

2 hours ago, Galloway Cave said:

She is deliberately posing her left hand in that pic. Showing off the wedding ring. Spiking interest for a new season? Inviting probing questions from her sycophants? She is exhausting.

It could also be an engagement ring or even just a commitment ring, or none of the above.  Same sex couples often exchange rings to symbolize all three relationship status' with both partners wearing rings

[Small Talk: The Polygamous Cul-de-Sac]

On 5/16/2020 at 11:35 PM, Yeah No said:

Also, I read that JC Penney filed for bankruptcy and Lord & Taylor is going to liquidate its remaining stores when they reopen.  At this rate the only places for me to buy clothes will be Marshalls, Walmart and Target if all the women's clothing stores go away.  Is no one upset about this but me?  Where I live I don't have other choices other than Kohls and Macy's and they're both on shaky ground too.  I'm not going to shop at mall stores aimed at kids either - can't fit those clothes anyway.  If the dept. stores close I will literally have nowhere to shop and I'm not blessed with an ideal figure that can order everything online without a lot of trouble.  I have a bunch of things that I ordered online and have to return because they don't fit right.  I just don't understand why more people aren't really upset about this.

I suspect there are a lot of people upset about this as well as the probability that a whole slew of other types of business will also close.  The problem is that if one expresses these concerns they face the likelihood that they will be labeled as selfish, uncaring, ignorant, and only concerned about themselves.

 

On 5/17/2020 at 11:30 AM, Kyanight said:

I read something this morning in my Colorado news that basically said (I am REALLY dumbing this down here) "Yeah, we counted too many people in our Covid19 death totals, so this virus is really not that big of a deal, after all."   And there is going to be a huge fourth of July parade, I heard... to boost the peoples' morale.  Not in Colorado - I'm guessing in Washington D.C.? 

 So my opinion is that yes - they will open sooner rather than later, by adjusting facts to justify their decisions.   I've been recording the number of daily cases and deaths since early March.  Since many of the states governments have started opening things up in their phase 2 modes, the numbers have gone down instead of going up or even staying steady.  I'm waiting to see the numbers in a week or two.   I hate being lied to by the government.

I think we all hate being mislead by anyone or any entity.  Unfortunately, it happens all the time from all sources, I don't believe there are any unbiased, impartial, neutral sources or reporters of information, and this phenomenon has only gotten more polarized over the last few decades.

[Meri Brown and her Wet Bar of Tears]

7 hours ago, deirdra said:

Why not provide make-up removing puffs or wipes?  Even if you clean black washcloths, you probably cannot completely get the smell of other peoples' makeup off them.  Sure black washcloths are reusable, but not 1000 times without fading and fraying, so they are going to get thrown out before they justify the environmental cost of producing them and their dye.

A major point of using cloth washcloths has been touted as being environmentally friendly, but you're saying it's more costly?  I thought a main message of environmentalists is to get away from single use items including single use wipes of all kinds, house cleaning, handi-wipes, baby wipes, make up removers, etc.  Has that message/theory been changing recently?