
Etoile
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This is very ill informed on how torture works and about its effects on the tortured person. Dean being forced into torturing is another form of torture a worse form of torture than what was done to him. His guilt was the whole point his ‘joy’ his sheer relief at the end of pain, at being the one having the knife, instead of under the knife, was the whole point of what Alastair did to break and debase him. It was a fantastic, nuanced storyline evidently written by someone who did their homework - I don’t have the link handy right now but there is a passage from a UN report on torture that could very well be written about Dean’s experience, both in hell and his feelings after. This is not like having an affair and feeling guilty after, like you said. Like Aeryn13 said, Dean saying that he enjoyed it is how Dean perceives his own actions, the illusion of choice and the guilt that comes from thinking he had some when her really, trully did not. No other storyline, no other trauma has ever been as complex and terrible as what they wrote for Dean’s hell experience and seeing it likened to the guilt of having an affair is simplistic, and a bit like blaming a victim for what it was done to them.
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Are you saying that being tortured into torturing is like... having an affair one could feel guilty after as if Dean had any choice in the matter? Torture by definition takes away choice from the person being tortured, no tortured person ever has any choice in what he does under the threat of torture. As for Dean ‘ enjoying it’ it’s not even obscure or subject to interpretation, he himself said that he felt joy in his own pain stopping finally, which was the ultimate psychological sadistc torture Alastair used on Dean. This happened when the writers, Edlund especially but not just him, knew what they were doing about important, and even actual topic, like torture and the effects on prisoners (as opposed to whatever it is that they are doing now).
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But that's not what I'm talking about? Of course Sam is a hero, as are Dean or Cas. But they are not heroes because they are these complete unselfish, always perfect people that always have good motivations (for whatever value one assigns to the word good) but because they try. This is literally not the way I watch this show because I actually dislike the overblown idea of heroes and I think that a deconstruction of heroism is a worthy endeavor and that these characters shine exactly because their motivations are complex and complicated), So I guess that what didn't come across in my posts is that I'm never making a moral judgement of an action and saying that they fall on this or that side of some moral perfection. If i say that Sam was rationalizing his choices because this way he could live with them, and justify them both to himself and Dean, I don't meant to say that Sam is a horrible person. Someone who sadistically revels in a destructive vindictive behavior is an extreme end of the spectrum that IMO flattens the conversation and reduces it in terms of good versus bad, right versus wrong, evil versus saintly, and I don't think such a conversation is in any way beneficial. As for Ruby's comment I have to agree to disagree. I know what literally the Dumbo line means, but I still think it's not about Sam's powers but the choices he made, out of desperation, helplessness, hubris - all relatable human reactions.
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I think that was Sam's rationalization and his argument to shut Dean up because his reasons were about completely different things (it was about revenge, about being stronger when he'd felt helpless and many more interesting things). The fact that Sam used that argument to justify himself is part of his character and how he tries to logic his way into making his decisions morally correct. Now nobody can object to what he's doing because he's saving people! But the slow reveal of the demon's blood drinking served to show how it was only a rationalization. Beside how many hosts had he killed while practicing his powers with Ruby (or let Ruby kill but it doesn't make much of a difference) when he could have indeed saved them with an exorcism? In before someone say but they always kill host. Yes but self defense is different than using them for demon powers practice. I also took Ruby's comment as something completely different and not about his powers and how he could have developped them without the blood - with Azazel dead his powers had disappeared so I don't see any failing of the writing that Sam needed the demon's blood to activate them. In fact, I took Ruby's comment about not manipulating him into freeing Lucifer (as he was accusing her of) as Ruby telling Sam that he was the one making his choices every step of the way. I think that's exactly what she says: she talks about choices not powers, in fact, but I can't check the transcript right now and will have to go back at you on that.
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Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck
Etoile replied to mstaken's topic in Supernatural
I can't even deal with the level of mysoginy that Jack's origin story entails and the treatement of Kelly. I'm NODDING forcefully at everything here and I wish more people were willing to call Dabb and the showrunner out on this. -
Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck
Etoile replied to mstaken's topic in Supernatural
I share this Unpopular Opinion. I think AC has a couple of faces and he uses them for everything. Coupled with the simplistic writing for a character that has no edges, no real personality, but is simply a trope, the effect is astonishing - in a bad way. -
You are right, I apologize: he didn't know that at the time. He did see him practicing with Ruby at the end of In the Beginings which considering what Ruby had been trying to do with Sam, and how their last parting words were how Ruby would enjoy hearing his screams in hell, still doesn't make his reaction a knee jerk. Also, he didn't punch Sam in the face out of nowhere. He punched Sam in the face when Sam, who had been practicing his demon's given powers with a demon just a moment before, tried to keep him from leaving. It may be a small difference to most, but it's not to me.
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If I may answer, I think, for me, the point of the story is never the plot, but how those plot are developped via the characters's actions and what those actions shows of the characters. It's why I loved early seasons so much and why in general I don't subscribe to the separation of emotional and supernatural themes. Of course, the apocalypse could have happened even if Sam and Dean had made different choices, but the interesting part is that it happened because of the choices they made, out of the trauma of their lives. I don't know if it makes sense. One of the reasons I don't like season 12 and 13, that much is because they are putting plot before characters. It happened for example when Sam joined the BMol last season. Not because it wasn't something I gound OOC for Sam, included his secretiveness but because the writers never bothered to explore why it was in character for Sam. They kind of tried to deal with it at the end of the season when Sam said that he tends to follow and that's why he ends making things worse, but it was so confused and too little to see if they were really addressing one of Sam's huge flaws, ie. his tendency to rationalize his choices as right even when logic and common sense should stop him.
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What a misrepresentation of Dean's reaction of Sam's powers. I guess you are talking of the reaction when Dean saw that Sam was enhancing them by drinking demon's blood at the start of season 4 which makes framing it as 'knee-jerks' weird especially considering Dean had just come back from Hell where the same demons Sam was associating with had horribly tortured him. I know that someone said above that Dean is always supposed to have the perfect responses to Sam's trauma no matter what is going on with him, because otherwise Sam suffers, but I on the other hand think Dean is allowed to have Hell PTSD a few days after he came back from Hell and not always have the super perfect responses that respect and nurture Sammy and gently guide him. (How very John Winchester is this argument, by the way?) But even without that little tiny detail, I'd say that knee jerk was not Dean's reaction to Sam's powers, not since they manifested in Sam. Sam was more worried of Sam going darkside, considering these powers were given by the same demon who had killed their mother and later Jess, than Dean was to the point he asked Dean to kill him in case he did go darkside. Throughout season one, two, and three Dean did not have any knee-jerk reaction to Sam's powers, although he objected to Ruby's kind of mentoring, which we all know how it went in the end. On top of it, "the powers that saved the day once in a while" was Sam's rationalization and what pushed him to do everything that he did in season 4, among other motivations. It was what he told himself to keep doing what he was doing, drinking demon's blood so he could save the day. I guess Dean seeing what else that was doing to Sam is small potatoes. I would add that Sam was drinking demon's blood. I know that people like to forget it or make it as not a big deal, but it was and it still is, so calling Dean's a knee-jerk reaction is incredibly unfair on Dean and promotes the idea that he isn't open minded or whatever becasue why focusing on what Sam was doing when you can say that Dean was being a bigot? Ah well, those were all rationalization of Sam, so it's very steeped in Sam's point of view. Luckily all of it was shown to be wrong in the end, like it should have been. But it's still weird seeing things framed like this after all we've seens since. Yeah, when people say that Sam was shown to be wrong, my reaction is of course he was, did people really think Sam could be right after everything that went on in season 4? And I loved Sam's story in season 4, he was rather more interesting and tragic than what we got since. gonzosgirrl, you made me laugh!
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Every time the writers try to tell me that Dean is doing feelings wrong I roll my eyes at the screen. They shouldn't have to force their idea of what is right and perfect, because it should be clear from the story and the narrative. and the more they force it, the more ridiculous their idea of emotional clarity becomes. But then I think that these writers wouldn't see emotional honesty if it started dancing in front of them, so I ignore what they sell. I guess I don't get that mad because in the end Dean is allowed to be right, for how much that serves him obviously, like in the episode last season wihen he broke Mary's brainwashing. It's small consolation after a whole season of being told he is doing feelings wrong , after having his arguments misrepresented or changed (not wanting Mary to lie betray and use them becomes suddenly a problem about cut sandwich crust) even when it's crystal clear his feelings are warranted and his instincts right, but at least it's there. I think they do it for drama and because they are not that talented, but it is becoming a staple of the courrent batch of writers.
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We saw barely a few seconds of michael taking over. We have no idea what Dean did or did not, if he resisted or tried to kick him off, if he was too tired by the fight and the beating he took. I really hope these are things shown next season. Oh and who better than Dean can show Michael exactly what righteous is, as opposed to self-righteous? Dean, who represents humanity in all its aspects of loyalty, bravery, love, but also enjoys everything that life can give, included those so called sins that Michael wants to erase.
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I'm not going to explain my points again because the argument would become circular and I'm not trying to convince anyone. It's fine to agree to disagree. I want just to point out that in 13.05 Jack was indeed left alone while the bros went hunting so the above point is moot because there were ways to avoid that Dean came in close contact with Jack before he was ready. There is a world of difference between 'unfairly relegating Jack to a small area of the bunker' and 'forcing that he hunts with them five minutes after Dean has said the mere sight of him hurts' wether Dean's feelings about Jack were or not valid objectively they were valid to Dean. By the way, Jack was involved in some shady stuff that the writers have totally ignored since so Dean had all the rights to be at least suspicious. Mileage varies.
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I imagine, John also said this to himself many times while he neglected his sons and parentified Dean ;) Well, your implication is wrong but in case I wasn't clear in my post, I never meant to imply that Sam drove Dean to Michael, Sam definitely put enough pressure on Dean to perform the good supportive big brother when Dean had nothing left to give, to the point that Dean felt that Dean was dragging Sam down. I'm watching a story about two, three, when they bother to write for Cas, deeply flawed characters with a ton of issues whose story is deeply connected. I don't like to dismiss the context of their decisions. And even though Dean's choice was his and his alone and I doubt we will have the equivalent of Fallen Idols where Dean says how Sam also contributes to the bad dynamic (as per the most favorable interpretation I have seen here) because this seems to be a completely different storyline, he doesn't live in a vacuum. His state of mind at the start of the season was relevant in the sense that it brought him close to giving up and is still relevant at the end of the season: the dude basically sacrificed himself to mop a huge mess - because to me he came across as someone who knew was selling himself without a lot of hope of coming back from it. The difference to me is that Dean doesn't try to force anything on Sam, he simply wants to be left alone. It's a HUGE difference IMO. I want that too. I loved Demon Dean lack of filters. I loved that he said things the way they were even though everything was a bit extra, a bit exaggerated and aimed to hurt deeply. I love the trope of possession as letting true, hidden feelings coming out. As for Sam I can appreciate his character without really liking that kind of character. He's a bit like John to me, interesting when he is allowed to be complex and messy. Maybe I'm holding hope that some things will be finally addressed without using Dean as scapegoat like usual. I'm into this show for these dynamics that I find hurtful yes, especially to Dean and as a Dean fan first, but also very nuanced, but I live in perpetual hope and Michael Dean is giving me a bit of hope both for the exploration of Dean character outside of what he can or can't do for Sam or Cas abut also for what it will show of them as well.
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I agree with the general sentiment, I disagree that that was what Sam was doing. He wasn't simply asking Dean to take responsibility of a superpowered newborn (Dean had already accepted that they did have responsibility for him when he said they had to take him to the bunker). He forced an emotional connection that Dean had all the right to reject and he forced Jack's presence on Dean even when Dean said that the mere sight of Jack hurt him (end of 13.03 start of 13.04). To me that's different than asking Dean to take responsability for this superpowered being who just had been the direct or indirect cause of so many deaths. It's this behavior that retraces what John often did not just while growing up but at the very moment of his death when he gave Dean the order of saving Sam or killing him (effectively putting the responsability of Sam's choices on Dean, something that Sam later does as well when he asks Dean to kill him if he goes darkside). The mission is everything, nobody cares that you are hurting. Sam was putting the mission first over everything else (his own mission and his own emotional needs because it was not just about responsibility for Jack but about his desire to save Mom, and his projection of his issues onto him) and namely over Dean's right to feel grief and deal with it in the ways he deemed fit; over his right not be forced into accepting an insta made brother or something in Jack. Typical John, I would say. I laughed when Sam said that Mary had made her choice in the AU in 13.022 because yes, his respect for Dean's choices was inexistent in those first episodes of the season. But then the rules are different for Dean it seems - bitter opinion LOL. Those dynamics are hard to shake because they are in the fabric of their personality. Obviously, Sam is not John in relation to Dean but he grew up the same family dynamic Dean grew up and one way those influence emerge is that he takes a few things for granted as far as Dean is concerned, to the point that sometime he is blind to Dean's emotional needs. In this specific case Dean needed to be left alone grieving Dean had asked quite forcefully to be left alone and grieve and deal with his grief the way he deemed fit. Maybe Sam not putting on him this kind of weight for about four episodes after Dean had relived his original childhood trauma of seeing his mother burn (the dream/hallucination he had in the premiere) wouldn't have made Dean feel so useless and bereft that he'd prefer dying in Advanced Thanatology rather than 'dragging Sam down'. I do think everything about this is relevant to the end of the season and Dean's decision to sacrifice himself to save the world (and Sam and Jack). Again, not an indictment of Sam. It's Sam's little brother syndrome contextualized in the family dynamic he grew up in which also influenced him with regard to Dean. It's something the show shows a lot, but rarely addresses openly because Sam is not a self-aware dude, IMO.
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I really, really hope you are right, SueB. Let Lucifer go and the actor with him. He was already past his selling date a few seasons ago. I can't see any reason for bringing him back - again. :(
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He quite forcefully pushed Dean to accept responsibility for Jack just this season, not just responsibility for this creature, but emotional responsibility that Dean didn't owe to him. When Dean calmly and quietly told him that they had a different approach to the whole thing, I think it was either the end of episode 1 or 2 this season, Sam refused to accept it, but strong-armed Dean with a lot of emotional manipulation, like equating himself to Jack and how Dean saved him or something, or nothing bad coming from when Sam was the 'freak' (he forgot a lot of the bad that happened apparently included Sam strangling Dean after he beat him violently) or putting the responsibility of Jack going darkside on Dean. He literally said that. So yeah, I say he was acting exactly like John there and it's the most recent example in 13 seasons. They both do live and sometime re-created the family dynamic they grew up in (Dean killing himself to bring Sam back and Gadreel being the most egregious example for Dean) but I see Dean being way more self-aware of what it was versus Sam lack of self-awareness, and that's my opinion. Beside Sam has been equated to John by everybody, included himself. Sam too often puts the onus of his own choices on Dean like John did growing up. Examples: when he said that it was Dean who forced him stop the trials, or the much discussed Fallen Idols. He also too often forgets that it was his own quest for vengeance that brought him back into the family business and uses Dean's fear that he dragged him into it against his will to win arguments. Sam hides behind a thinly disguised appareance of good guy, but he is very messy in how he behaves with Dean the same way Dean is. It's my favorite part of their dynamic, how messy they are with each other, and it's my favorite part of Sam. So yeah, agree to disagree :)
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No, I also agree with this. But we haven't been shown a lot of his motivations apart that he wants to destroy everything and that now he wants to find a different plan. I actually am very interested in the idea of erasing sinners one by one, I don't have the transcript at hand so I can't be more precise, but it caught my attention. The angel's idea of sins, their self-righteousness against Dean Winchester's love for every aspect that makes living worth living. I hope it goes somewhere interesting.
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I liked this episode for how it set up Dean being possessed by Michael. I was sure since the spoilers came out that he was going to be Michael, and I was afraid that they wouldn't set it up properly or that plot exigences would trash Dean's character. instead I loved what they did with Dean in this episode. All his scenes were perfect, and the writing for him was very good. It's always nice f or example, seeing how surprised Sam is by things about Dean that have been present since forever (like his desire to retire), and it's not even an indictment to Sam, but a reinforcement of my take on the characters. I liked how his choice to use Michael was both well set and desperate enough to make sense in the context of what Lucifer was doing. I LOVED how he talked to Jack about his nightmares. I loved that he basically said that even though he didn't know what Jack had been through, he knew that it was bad, and I loved his simple, but effective advice: we all make mistakes, but we can be better, every day. Good stuff. I couldn't help compare it with Mary's similar speech to Dean in 13.22 when she said that she knew exactly what Dean and Sam had gone through and Dean's reaction to that. I see that as the difference between patronizing, condescending (Mary) and emotional honesty (Dean). I disliked that so much was spent on Lucifer, a character I find way past is expiration date. I don't find the actor to be talented in the least and the writing for him has been atrocious. I say good riddance, and please let him stay torched and burned like his wings. I also didn't like some of the direction and music choices. I found them silly to the point of ridiculous. All in all, I'm very excited to see what they will do with Michael in Dean AND with Dean next season. I hope this storyline lasts enough to give Jensen Ackles the time to create his character, given that AU Michael was such a blank state, and that it's used for much needed exploration of Dean's issues. For once, I'm hopeful, at least for now. :)
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I believe John abused his children, at least he was neglectful and he definitely parentified Dean. Parentification is one of the form of child abuse. It's made clear, IMO in various episodes starting from Nightmare, in fact, that John was not just a tough parent. Also being an abusive parent, doesn't make him bad or unloving. All those things can co-habit in a person. I am not a fan of John but I am a fan of his character for how complex he is. As for Dean lashing out: funny, how Sam lashing out is never tied to the family dynamic, and the things he's learned growing up in it (or it's completely forgotten). Abusive, dysfunctional households influence all the members of the family and Sam is no exception. In fact, he's shown quite a manipulative side, and bossy and violent tendencies and one has to simply watch the show without accepting some general consensus to see how bossy Sam can be, how "my way or the highway" he is in certain instances, and how he often uses lies and obfuscation to avoid being questioned on his decisions. I don't subscribe to this idea that Sam is abused by Dean. While abuse can result in abusive behaviors, BOTH Sam and Dean have shown it with Sam having an edge IMO. Sam is not the perpetual victim people want to depict him as (Sam on the other hand believes he is a perpetual victim which is one of his issues), and neither is Dean, for that matter, but something that has been clear to me is how Sam has very often looked for and forced the same kind of expectations on Dean that John himself imposed on Dean.
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This episode was the most illogical piece of writing I have ever seen and I have sat through some very bad written episodes for the sake of this show. From the tonal shift from comedy to drama that instead of complementing the seriousness of the situation, undercut it in a silly and jouvenile way, to the lack of care for any plot point, be it the fight in fake Moria or Sam's death or how Lucifer got what he wanted, to the direction (I can't keep out of my eyes the ridiculous sight of Mary walking five feet from Dean without seeing him so she can be surprised!) everything was so badly done I cringed through most of it. Sure Jensen Ackles can deliver the same emotions over and over always finding a new way of doing it (this time it was by going mute) and that remains a pleasure to see, but it is not enough to raise this episode. Sure the episode accomplished the goal of putting all the characters in the AU so they can go on with finally, maybe deal with one of the thousand arcs they have left hanging, but frankly IMO the execution was very lacking.
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I think the reason why Sam goes without waiting for Dean and agrees to Rowena's urgency (that we know is manifactured because she wants Lucifer free) is to be found in these lines of dialogue (from the transcript of 11.09 at Wikipedia ). Like we have been discussing in other places those are triggering words for Sam and his desire to always prove himself. And if I remember correctly he reacts to those words in the actual scene although I'm not sure. Funny thing is the same happens in 13.20 and it spurs the kid's table comment from Sam. Gabriel tells Sam something about big brothers always knowing best when Dean goes after Loki alone.
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These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers
Etoile replied to catrox14's topic in Supernatural
He might go off white for 5 or 10 minutes but I don't see him going evil or siding with Lucifer at all. They are too in love with their precious powerful character so I agree that the most it will happen will be some bland angst à la Tombstone. -
These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers
Etoile replied to catrox14's topic in Supernatural
I hope so and I think this is the direction the show is going to go! Not that it will make Jack evil, only misguided but at least, hopefully, it will make Jack a little bit more interesting than the blandness he's shown so far. And I completely disagree it would make Sam look wrong but maybe it could make Sam reconsider idetifying with a character to the point he forgets completely the context of that character to change it with his own. Give him some much needed character growth that they band around for Dean when he does things he's done many times before. /sighs -
What about not asking for conditions from Dean just to start with? How did Sam tried to earn Dean's trust back? He came back because he needed redemption after he'd learned he was fated to host Lucifer. I didn't see anything about Sam addressing what had made him fall for Ruby's making him feel like he was bigger and better. He got annoyed that Dean couldn't get over it and he dictated terms for his coming back. Dean conditioned by his upbringing and by that vision of the future where not being with Sam had made the apocalypse possible, accepted. And in regard to the writing, I think they needed to get the relationship stuff out of the way because they needed to focus on the plot and they were also scared of how dark they had made Sam in season 4 with killing the nurse and strangling Dean so this episode was a way to wave a strawman and hope the viewers buy it. Again, considering that the subject of Dean having to let Sam grow up comes up at the end of the season makes it intentional not just bad writing (and it was written badly, I agree). If we are reaching this far, I would add that Sam in season 2 had basically made Dean responsible for Sam's destiny when he asked him to kill him if he goes darkside. It was a nice parallel to John's final words of saving Sam or killing Sam. If you pay attention to season 2 Dean's state of mind which ends in the deal is made worse as time goes also because Sam reiterates that request a couple of time with, in your words, no concern for what it did to Dean. I didn't include in Dean's decision in season 9 how how Sam had basically used textual emotional manipulation in his season 8 finale speech (I want to kill myself because you don't trust me) because in the end Dean's choice in season 9 is his. But if we're talking about context, don't we have to talk about all the context for every character? Or is that limited to Sam? So if we're playing this backward game the end is infinite and no character is ever responsible for their own choices. Just to close this discussion as far as I am concerned, my post was limited to the way two similar situations (season 4 and season 9) were treated differently in the narrative and how in both cases Sam gets to decide the terms of the relationship as a reply to the opinions that Sam didn't get to be angry at Dean when he was done wrong. That's all.