Anothermi

Lovely Ode to Ned, Pallas. We get so used to bashing his qualities because they caused us to lose him, and him to lose the Game. But they were likely why he was so beloved in the North where they don't play those kind of games. They just try to survive with dignity. And for the initiating poster - well observed Gingerella.

Yeah but.... I didn't think it would actually happen! Thank you for the award. Why I feel so hollow inside? :-( Jorah?

Of course that comes back to the witch in the flash-back being wrong because that would give Cersei 4 children and Robert - well it could still be twenty. But the 3 vs 4 children for Cersei remains a problem. But it's a lovely wild spitball regardless of it's accuracy. Certainly worth the flinging of. Perhaps I should yell "Fore"! (or however they spell that in golf) so everyone knows to duck?

This takes me back to the speculation of the parentage of Jon Snow debate. Perhaps he is the "dead" child of Robert and Cersei - who wasn't actually dead, but comatose? It's another possibility at least. Maybe Robert didn't want Cersei to be the boy's mother, or maybe it turned out Peycelle was the one who pronounced it dead and he was wrong (again). Haven't actually worked out the time-line for this, so feel free to scoff.

I should clarify that the reasons I laid out here are speculation I'm coming up with now. Back when this issue would have come up before, the discussion would have been tangential at best. I just have a previous memory of us wondering why Mormont Sr. was at the Wall and linking it with Jorah - once we knew they were father and son. I must confess, though, my memory is notoriously ... fluid. By that I mean memories can appear, like time travelers, in dimensions they'd never been before!

I stand corrected. I remember the puddle freezing, but at the time of writing the post, couldn't remember if that was before or after the last Craster boy was offered up. Rast was also the one sent to leave the Craster boy out in the woods. He didn't improve his lot much by siding with the mutineers, did he? In fact I think he'd taken up Sam's position of NW member easiest to bully. (hee) I think we had a bit of discussion, back on TWoP, about how Jeorh Mormont came to join the NW. Don't remember much of it, but it was tied into the disgrace of his only son (don't know if we've had that confirmed, but he gave his sword to Jon which indicates no one else to give it to) being a slaver and sentenced to death (and then running away). He might have done something reprehensible in trying to protect his son, but his speech to Jon didn't sound like a father who felt sympathy. He may have volunteered as some kind of penance in lieu of the head of Jorah on a spike?

Take heart Gingerella, janjan is correct. I re-watched that Episode in the past few days and, yes, Summer was caught in a trap (presumably set by the mutineers) when Bran was warging him to reconnoitre. Bran/Summer had just seen Ghost in a cage and fell into the trap as they headed towards Ghost. (Bran did un-warg in time) But, I'm posting this to remind you the the show gave us a "now that's justice" moment around Ghost. We were shown Rast (that bastard who bullied Sam constantly) forced to take food out to Ghost in the cage, and instead he taunted Ghost by pouring water outside of his cage and not giving him food. He ran away like the coward he was when Ghost got so agitated he started snarling and gnawing at the bars of the (wooden) cage. Then, when the Night's Watch arrived (just in time to save Meera Reed from a fate worse than death), Rast manage to avoid any serious fight and when that Karl guy (had we ever seen him before Season 4?) finally got killed by Jon Snuh, Rast ran for his life only to run towards the caged Direwolves - who both had, I assume, been released by your Scooby Doo Gang. Ghost was the only direwolf there, and he got to remove Rast's throat from his neck!. Fitting, don't you think? It really was the finest moment of that whole series of scenes. It also suggests that Summer must have left with Bran and Co. * special thanks to Nymeria's name sake for the Unsullied Character Index which I relied on for this post. One more note. Bran got to see Jon Snuh fighting and wanted to go to him, but Jojen reminded him that if he showed himself Jon would take him back to the Wall for protection and Bran wouldn't get to the Weirwood tree and the three-eyed raven he was seeking. Bran chose to continue his quest and that's when he ordered Hodor to go and free Summer.

I don't think it is that unusual for there to be a gap that long between births. Mama Lannister could have had a number of miscarriages, or she and Tywin only infrequently got together, what with him being down in King's Landing. The fact that Elia was there when Tyrion was a baby, and as a young girl, would give enough time for her to grow to "bleeding" age, marry and have a couple of children by the time the Rebellion took place. I think the timing is just right. That's not to completely dismiss the possibility that she could be someone else, like a cousin? as suggested by WS.

While I like the irony implicit in the dark-haired girl in the flashback being Lyanna Stark, I don't believe it's her - for a lot of reasons: 1 - The animosity between the Lannisters and the Starks seems to have had a loooong history. Like, way before the rebellion that overthrew the Targs. I just don't see the Starks sending her to stay with the Lannisters for ANY reason. (Cersei made a point of saying the witch was on HER land and she could have her eyes gouged out if the witch didn't tell her fortune.) 2 - re: the bolded bit... I never got the impression that Lyanna was the least bit concerned about doing something naughty. I have a memory that someone said Arya reminded them of Lyanna which would also indicate that Lyanna was headstrong, not meek and obedient. Perhaps WhiteStumbler, who has done a recent series re-watch, could help me out here? I don't really trust my memory, but I know I didn't get any impression that Lyanna was an obedient girl concerned about being naughty. So, I'm of the other opinion, that the dark-haired girl in the flashback is likely Oberyn's sister. Here are my reasons for that opinion: - Oberyn told Tyrion the story of when he 1st met him. (I just rewatched that horrible episode yesterday and my heart is still racing from the final scene!) :-/ It was shortly after Tyrion was born. He said he and his sister, Elia were excited about visiting Casterly Rock because they had heard about the "monster" that was just born to Tywin. So, Elia (later to be Rhaegar's wife) was there and she & Cercei were just young girls. From what little I know of her, she would be more likely to be someone who would be concerned about doing something naughty, but of course that is mostly speculation. As far as who the "prince" that Cersei assumed she would be marrying could be? Both Martell boys would be Princes, no? At that time at least. The older one would become King of Dorne, but Oberyn might be a possible candidate as well. So might Rhaegar, but it makes a lot more political sense for him to be betrothed to Elia so as to cement alliances with Dorne. Tywin was already Hand of the King (he served as the Mad King's Hand for 20 years if we believe Tyrion) so no need to strengthen an alliance with him via marrying Rhaegar to Cercei. Rhaegar was married to Elia long enough to produce 2 children, so (spitball lobbing) possibly, the Martell's upset Tywin's plans of marrying Cersei to Rhaegar (leading to bad blood and a possible motive for Tywin to order the killing of Elia and the children) or the "prince" the child-Cersei referred to was someone else. And on a bit of a tangent to the main point of this post, the witch stated that the "King" Cersei would marry would have 20 children and Cersei would have 3. Putting aside the lack of addressing the child they had together who didn't live, I found 20 an exceedingly low number!! I assumed there would be hundreds. Perhaps in his Kingly years his constant inebriation proved to be an effective contraceptive measure? That small scene now has me worrying for Mycella because the witch said Cersei's three children would have golden crowns and golden shrouds. I agree with Shimpy that Tommen has to now be dead child walking (that was my comment in the post I lost yesterday, so great minds thing alike - in some things - Shimpy!) But Mycella? Noooo!

Arg. I lost a longish post addressing the discussion to this point. Can't rewrite it right now, so will just add a tidbit I noticed in my continued re-watch of season 4. Episode 7, Littlefinger explaining to Robin why he has to leave the Aeyrie. Forshadowing... Robin says it's not safe outside and LF tells him him it's not safe inside either. His mother died inside. "People die at their dinner tables, they die in their beds, they die squatting over their chamber pots.,,," Um-hum. Like Tywin. ;-) (if this is better located in the speculation thread, Mods, feel free to move it there.)

Hmm. Yes. There'd have to be air holes at least, or he'd be DOA. But did he have someone to pick it up and throw it overboard, like Tyrion did?

Welcome Back, Nymeria!!! What Shimpy said (only shorter). *does happy dance*

I've only got as far as S04E05 in my re-watch and in it Lysa Aaron greets Littlefinger (after Sansa has gone to her room) with a demand that they marry that evening and, explaining her impatience, she recounts that they (she and Littlefinger) had their wedding night long ago. Then she goes on to speak of all the things she had done for him (out of love born from that one night together)... She had put the poison into the wine of her husband, Jon Aaron. She had written to Catelyn accusing the Lannister's of the deed, as per Littlefinger's instructions. I had forgotten all about this! All the evil conniving he has done makes me suspicious of Littlefinger always, but I'm surprised that I actually forgot when some of our suspicions were confirmed. (This makes me think that it must have been Littlefinger behind the attempt on Bran's life and the mystery of "Knifey", just sayin'.) So, back to the quote. "Cue the chaos" indeed! All part of Peter-the-Planner Baelish's master plan. I hope that there are others who are shown to have master plans (Varys?) because too much Littlefinger-directed chaos will undermine the scope of the story for me.

Yes. This is my feeling as well, but Shimpy's reminder of why she was trying to get on the ship in the first place (I'd forgotten that) indicates she still has a desire to reunite with any family who is left. She is still a child after all. She always felt supported by Jon Snuh (™ WhiteStumbler, thanks) and it was her plan, when she started out from King's Landing, to rejoin her family. I think she'd also want to know that Bran and Rickon are not dead. But, the pull of revenge is very strong in this little grasshopper and I think if she joined Jon at this point he would probably disappoint her. Perhaps by treating her like someone who he has to protect. Despite knowing that women can be ferocious fighters, he too, has lost family members and was unable to help protect them, so that could easily be his primary need around Arya. I think there are a lot of ways Arya's story can go. Like, if she joins the face-changing assassins? What is the personal price she'd have to pay for that "skill"? Not to mention the Red God/Lord of Light aspect. (ergh)

I can't help but think there would have been no RIGHT answer in that circumstance. Did Brienne even know the sword Jaime gave her was once Ned's Sword? It wouldn't matter if she did and said so because Arya wouldn't have waited to have the nuances explained - "My sword was made from part of your father's legendary sword by the dastardly Tywin Lannister, but I will use it for ..." I think for Arya it would be a symbolic revisiting of her father's beheading and reason enough to vow death to anyone associated with it.

Oh YES! The oblique snarkmeister vs. an unarmed man. Score one for us!

I think that the show was juggling the fact that we now know that the child migrant program was actually harmful to many of the kids, but that at the time there were probably lots of people who were part of setting it up and referring children to it who thought they were doing a good thing and giving children a better life. Good intentions don't always result in good outcomes. It's better to know about the problems than to blissfully go on repeating them.

Hmmm. Interesting bit from Janos Slynt. Toadying up to someone (anyone, I guess. It's in his nature) in order to secure a comfy place for himself in the pecking order. I vaguely remember that bit. Guess I didn't pay much attention because I wasn't sure who would end up still alive. I think your speculation about Littlefinger has a lot of merit, but I found my mind wandering - as it is wont to do to avoid nastiness. And Littlefinger is the embodiment of slimy (yet compelling) nastiness. I don't want to look, but I can't stop myself. I can, however, avoid thinking about him... until the new season starts.

Awww. Now I can believe that of the Ross that we are seeing now so I think they've got that relationship down very well.

What I noticed in that scene was how comfortable he was in talking with Verity while he was staring at the two women (Demelza and Elizabeth). He forgot he was talking to another woman when she (IMHO jesting) suggested he might like to have them both. Her expression at his response was priceless. I think now-a-days we'd label that expression TMI!

DirewolfPup, I'm bringing this up because of the lovely images of Oberon's beer and your pretty snake... If you recall, we had a bit of a kerfuffle last season due to posted screen grabs, and I suggested to the mods that we have a rule that no images be posted in this Habitat - just links to images. It was a way to avoid the problematic situation in the future. The beneficent White Cloaks explained they couldn't enforce or impose the rule (technical and logistical obstacles) but suggested that we adopt it as a self-policing house rule. In that spirit, I'd like to ask if you would edit your post to follow the house rule. That way new posters, who haven't had time to read through the Proclamations thread, won't get confused and think it is OK to post images in the Unsullied Habitat. I love your images and am happy to have seen them, just want to make sure our safety precautions (rules) aren't confusing.

Re: Ned Starks bones. My speculation is that they are kicking around in Olenna Tyrell's storage rooms back in Highgarden. I think this because Catelyn saw the box of bones when Littlefinger brought them to her when she came to make an alliance for Robb with the then living King Renly Baratheon. She wouldn't have been able able to bring them with her when she left because she was kinda in a hurry - what with Smoke Baby Baratheon having killed Renly and Brienne being blamed for his death. She vamoosed outta there, with a reluctant Brienne, leaving no time to pick up Ned-in-a-box. (heavy use of the Unsullied Character index for this short bit.) Another real possibility is that Littlefinger still has them and they are now with HIM at the Aeryie. I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, but Poor Sansa!

Great description, AngelKitty (almost called you HelloKitty... Just No). Am I right that this is your 1st time on this forum? Did you post on TWoP under another user name we would know you by? (It's always nice to welcome back old friends.) Regardless, Hail and Welcome! Help yourself to the grog (if there's any left).

I wouldn't have pegged you as an eternal optimist, but perhaps I got that wrong, given the above. I used to think I was an optimist, but this show has squished every last drop of optimism, regarding relationships, I had in me. OTOH, I'm still optimistic that I will be surprised and entertained by the twists and turns of this story. At least that's something.

IIRC the Tullys would be more a Uncle/nephew team, and from the lack of archery prowess of the nephew, I think the Uncle might be better as a one man "Team". Would really like the Blackfish to re-appear this season, though - along with some fitting denouement for Benjen, I need some closure on him. :-( I also wonder if the nickname Blackfish is evocative of the concept of being a black sheep of the family? Just more water-ish.