cavelupum

Haha, no problem! :)

I think it stands for One Perfect Tear.

I might be misunderstanding, but Dean at least had no idea Sam was drinking demon blood at the beginning of S4 when he punched Sam in the face twice after finding out he was using his powers — at the time, he thought it was “just” Sam’s powers, more developed as a result of Ruby’s tutelage perhaps, but nothing more than that. Dean finding out about Sam drinking demon blood came much later, near the end of the season (4.20).

I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn’t contribute half as much as I do to this thread if venting about how Dabb & Co. treat Dean didn’t often go hand-in-hand with taking (what I often see as unfair) digs at Sam or implying he’s the writers’ favorite — I have never and will never understand the latter, especially post-S7. I also think both sides are guilty of jumping in to defend their fave, but that’s just me.

As a general addition to the discussion, my big issue that I take with the way Dean handled his grief is that he seemed to directly blame Jack for what happened, which wasn’t fair because Jack wasn’t directly responsible for the losses he was mourning. It’s not like Dean just wanted to be left alone by everyone to cope in solitude — he specifically and in a targeted way wanted to exclude just Jack, and Jack knew this (see his convo with Sam in 13.04), knew Dean thought he was destined for evil, knew Dean planned to kill him should he turn, and was afraid of Dean as a result. Given that Jack was a strange combination of innocent and dangerous, Dean not troubling to hide his negative feelings before they even brought Jack back to the bunker was a problem that needed to be rectified to some degree, not just because they really did need to keep this unknown entity on a good path to the best of their abilities but also because it was a bit unfair to Jack, who did nothing to really earn Dean’s dislike of him at that point save being born.

Dean was a grown man dealing with the equivalent of a (dangerously super-powered) child who, despite how Dean felt about it in his grief, was not at direct fault for Castiel’s death or Mary’s uncertain fate and didn’t deserve that blame. I mentioned earlier that people should ideally be allowed to grieve as they wish until it harms others — to me, Dean telling a confused and overwhelmed kid he didn’t believe he could be good and saying he’d be the one to kill Jack qualifies as harmful. I’m also not sure how it would have been possible to grant Dean his wish of not engaging or interacting with Jack anyway, short of unfairly relegating Jack to only a small area of the bunker and leaving him on his own whenever the brothers needed to work together on a case (which I think would only intensify his feelings of otherness and being unwelcome). Again, Jack wasn’t truly responsible for the losses Dean was mourning, so there was no real reason to treat him like a guilty pariah and plenty of potential reasons to try to appeal to and avoid upsetting a being that powerful. Dean, whom it’s worth noting is also not innocent when it comes to prioritizing the more pressing mission at hand over the immediate feelings of others (5.11, 7.07, 13.17), should have been able to understand this reality even in his grief, IMO.

Jack was, as far as they knew at the time, the most powerful being in the world and one they were unable to take out should things go sideways. He was also shown to be impressionable and childlike. Arguably, it was important for Dean to at least pretend to accept and get along with Jack lest the brothers inadvertently turn him against them or just down a dark road in general. Jack was said to be actively afraid of Dean, who directly told Jack he didn’t think he could be saved and that he (Dean) would be the one to kill him. That conversation between Jack and Dean also happened before Sam suggested bringing Jack along on a case (aka “forcing” Jack’s presence on Dean). In an ideal situation, everyone should be given the luxury to deal with their grief as they see fit short of harming others in the process, but it was hardly an ideal situation.

This post summed everything up so much better than I could, and I agree with it completely. (Also totally forgot about Eve and Abaddon somehow.)

Well, arguably, so does Mary, who eventually saw the error of her ways in trusting the BMoL and aligned herself with the boys up until Lucifer separated her from them by pulling her through the rift at the end of S12. She’s also willing to compromise and alter options, as demonstrated by her acceptance of going back to OW with her sons once they show a willingness to account for the people she feels still need her. I was a bit hyperbolic in the post you quoted, I’ll admit, and it came off as a little unfair to Dean AND Mary, but I stand firmly by the point I was trying to make: Sam is not the only one who shares negative traits with his parents. I also do still feel Dean has enough of a documented history of digging his heels in when he feels justified that it’s fair to consider it a trait of the character, and I would add to my other examples his doubling down without apology in the Gadreel arc and stating he was “entitled” to sell his soul for Sam regardless of Sam’s feelings and in spite of knowing firsthand precisely how much it sucked to be on the other end of things. There are additional examples to be found in the MoC arc, and per God, the MoC just makes you more of what you already are. That said, of course a trait or even a pattern of behavior doesn’t define a multilayered character, but it is something I’ve personally noticed. To repeat something I mentioned on page 108 of this thread, I have never had the impression that Dean is all that great at apologizing for the big things and to Sam at least, but I’d accept evidence to the contrary.

I still don’t personally see any of this as evidence that Dean is mistreated by the writers any more than Sam is on average, but miles vary. Dean should have killed Alistair, but Sam should have killed Lucifer. Dean should have killed a hellhound or two, but Sam should’ve participated in the death of Azazel or been the one to stab Ruby. I mean, I’m pretty sure both sides could do this all day long if given the opportunity. I also don’t agree that a random, one-off YED in a single episode in S12 is in any way equal to Azazel, a two-season villain whose interference changed the course of both brothers’ lives forever and was particularly targeted at Sam. If you took away the Lucifer win from Dean, he’d still have Azazel, Zachariah, Ruby, Dick Roman, Cain, Death, and even Hitler to his name as significant kills. If you took Alistair from Sam, he’d have a couple of hellhounds, the alpha vampire, Ramiel, assists WRT Ruby and Lucifer, and Lilith, which was presented as a terrible mistake and had disastrous consequences. (I could be forgetting some, so feel free to remind me, I’ll admit I haven’t rewatched the series in full in awhile.) Dean talked God’s sister, the Darkness herself, down from the ledge of destroying everything and was willing to die to take her out if it didn’t work, and there are no signs so far that his positive influence on her will be reversed or undone in any way, which is as it should be. Sam made the ultimate sacrifice to lock Lucifer away, and it was crapped all over six years later by releasing him again in S11, having him torment Sam some more for good measure, and then denying Sam the killing blow. Eight years later, Dean fans get to revisit the Michael arc they always felt robbed of, and Sam fans get to remember that the character’s greatest achievement of all was undone and Lucifer had to be finished off by his brother. To sum it up, I’m not trying to say that Dean fans have nothing to complain about at all or that Dean is the favorite of the writers. There’s nothing wrong with disliking the way things were done or wanting something different. I’m saying that Sam fans have just as many things to be disappointed in as well, and I maintain my opinion that Sam’s not the favorite of the writers any more than Dean is. I don’t think the writers always consider the implications of their choices (and I will freely admit to getting angry at their decisions at times), but I can’t buy that they’re consciously, deliberately snubbing Dean. In an episode in which Dean gets to look like a badass with that angel wing shot, has a dramatic showdown with a supercharged Satan, lands the killing blow on one of the biggest and most important villains in the entire show, and is set up for a myth arc next season, why even quibble over whether or not Mary’s line about calling Sam, who did little more in 13.23 than get kicked around and toss a blade, was evidence of Dabb’s underlying favoritism? IDGI.

Definitely a possibility. I just know a lot of Dean fans (not sure if this applies to you, so if it doesn’t, disregard) headcanon that John was physically abusive to Dean, and if that’s a consensus, then it’s easy to postulate that Dean picked up that ugly habit of occasionally lashing out violently when angry from John as is the sad case sometimes in the real world. Tragic and not without explanation, but still wrong. I think comparing Mary to Sam, and particularly Sam at this point in the series, is doing a disservice to him and an undeserved insult. I’m sure I could write an entire essay about it, but I’m fine with agreeing to disagree here since I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind.

Mary has a history of a dismissive, “I‘m doing what I want and you can like it or lump it” sort of attitude and refuses to back down from her decisions even when others disagree with her, per her infuriating defense of working with the BMoL and initial insistence that she was not going back through the rift with the boys in 13.22. Similarly, when Dean feels he’s right or justified, you’re not going to talk or reason him out of anything and he’s not going to apologize for it — it’s the way it’s going to be, take it or leave it. See the end of 13.17 and the way he handled the Amy Pond situation, because while arguably he made the correct decision, Dean also called Sam a bitch and a dick and basically said that even though he acknowledged Sam had every right to be angry, it was time to get over it because he was right. Since there’s always been theorizing back and forth about whether or not John ever physically hurt his sons, usually in reference to Dean and particularly regarding the Flagstaff incident, perhaps Dean got his tendency to escalate to flinging objects and/or striking loved ones (2.03, 4.04, 7.03, 13.18) when angry from his father. Dean also has a bossy streak which certainly could have come from John, whom we know liked to give orders. My point being that while I know there have been jokes that Dean must surely be adopted because all of his family save him are apparently assholes, arguments can easily be made that he shares negative traits with his parents. Nothing wrong with loving him anyway, of course.

I love “Red Meat” because it’s like the proverbial oasis in a desert — IMO, frequently the norm for Sam is to be choked, tied up, or knocked unconscious when things start getting real, so to be thrown a bone in that regard was a welcome change. On the other hand, my disappointment in that same season was that Sam, who always had faith and prayed daily for a long time per 2.13, was more or less ignored by God with their one solo conversation happening offscreen. To me, that’s not the way one treats a favorite any more than Dean’s turn in “Red Meat” was for you, which I think suggests at least some sense of balance, with each brother getting the spotlight at different times. We as fans may not always like the specific way our favorite character is highlighted or wish it was done differently, which is why it’s nice to vent sometimes.

Apologies if the word choice wasn’t the best, but I’ve seen talk (not just here, FTR) in which Sam is referred to as the favorite of Dabb and/or other writers as though it’s a fact and in a way that seems to suggest these fans wish Dean was similarly favored. Bitterness implies resentment, and like jealousy, resentment is an emotion of comparison and can go hand-in-hand with it — regardless, I promise I didn’t think too deeply about using that word specifically to imply some great meaning, judgment, or accusation against any specific person or group; I was just posing a question. Nothing more, nothing less.

So much this! If frequent head injuries are an indicator of preferential treatment, I don’t want it anymore either, haha.

I know tone can be difficult to decipher when it comes to text so I want to emphasize that I honestly mean no snark in asking this, but what did Sam get in S13 that makes some Dean fans feel he’s the darling of Dabb & Co. or that they wish Dean had gotten instead? Sam got to bond with Jack, but ultimately so did Dean (and Castiel), including that nice moment they shared in the finale. The writers briefly explored Sam being depressed mid-season, but they also explored Dean’s depression in the beginning of the season. Dean got a cool solo adventure with Ketch while Sam was left babysitting Gabriel, a pep talk about his importance from Death herself, was able to land the killing blow of one of the biggest and most significant villains in the entire series despite that Lucifer was always much more closely associated with Sam, and is set for a myth arc next season. Again, no offense meant, but I’m really not sure what there is to be jealous of or bitter about here.

Well, the good news for those who felt Dean was robbed in S5 is that he’s clearly getting a second shot at being Michael’s sword, and I am certain he’ll be allowed to shine by overcoming and/or defeating Michael in some way. Meanwhile the book appears to have been permanently and irrevocably shut on the Lucifer and Sam storyline, and the ending cheated Sam out of a victory that rightfully should have been his. JMO.

Very true, and I should have mentioned that John helped. However, my point stands that Sam at least played no part in ending Azazel despite what he did to both brothers and Sam specifically. Also, much like Azazel’s death is attributed to Dean despite John’s involvement, I suspect Lucifer’s death will be counted among Dean’s kills regardless of the fact that he couldn’t have done it without Sam. As a general addition to the discussion, Dean will undoubtedly suffer and struggle at Michael’s hands more uniquely and intimately than anyone else will next season by virtue of being possessed by him, and Michael clearly has the more meaningful connection to and history with Dean. If despite all of that Sam gets to kill Michael in the end with a little help from Dean, then I expect Dean fans will feel exactly as cheated and unsatisfied as I’m feeling right now.

Dean also got to kill Azazel completely on his own despite the fact that Azazel destroyed both of their lives and fed demon blood to Sam as a baby, an act of violation that had lasting repercussions and left him feeling tainted his entire life. For me personally, this isn’t about scorekeeping; Lucifer should have been Sam’s kill, and there’s not really anything that’s going to change my mind about that. For my part, I wish they’d never brought Lucifer back in the first place, and that goes double now that I’ve seen how they chose to end his story. I feel that the writers handwave and retcon their way out of so much that it wouldn’t have been a terribly difficult task for them to somehow fudge this one a bit if it was at all important to them that Sam be the one to definitively end Lucifer. Heck, have Jack retain just enough of his own archangel grace that as Sam stabs Lucifer, he could grab on to Sam’s arm and channel what remained of his power into fueling the blade’s effectiveness — and that’s just something silly I came up with on the fly while typing this post, I’m sure professional writers could make it happen somehow in a more satisfying way. Alternatively, they could have simply not written that rule at all in the first place, given it was something that only became part of the lore this season and doesn’t jibe at all with the way regular angel blades work. I feel like there’s already at least a little laxity in the interpretation as written because it was made clear that Dean was the one actually driving the bus when the archangel blade was used successfully against Lucifer, not Michael — Michael was just powering Dean up at the time as opposed to being the one in control.

Popping in for a little post-finale vent, since I think it fits better here than in the episode thread. The only thing I wanted out of this season was Sam being the one to end Lucifer. Dean was already set to have what was arguably the much more intriguing storyline in the finale and into S14 with all the spoilers flying around about Jensen playing a new character, and I was totally fine with that; I just wanted Sam to kill the Devil. I felt certain the show was heading in that direction by acknowledging Sam’s trauma and desire for vengeance this season after flagrantly disregarding his history with Lucifer at the end of S11. When Sam was done in by vampires and had to endure the shame of being brought back by and indebted to his tormentor, I thought that surely this continued twisting of the knife had to have a greater purpose beyond being needlessly cruel and was building up to a huge and satisfying payoff for Sam. After everything, that Sam’s only involvement in Lucifer’s demise was tossing Dean a blade was completely anticlimactic for me, though given the writers’ track record, I guess I should be thankful they didn’t have Sam tied up or knocked unconscious during the fight. He definitely got to contribute something, but I feel it should have been mostly his victory with help from others, not providing an assist so Dean could land the kill. Granted Dean was seconds away from being killed himself so I acknowledge that Sam’s role was much greater and more critical to their success than it seemed at face value, but that’s the problem — IMO, it should have felt distinctly like it was Sam’s win and it just...didn’t. Not at first, anyway. It was the one thing I was really looking forward to and for it to be so underwhelming is a big disappointment. I suspect (hope) I’ll find more satisfaction in it with time and a couple of rewatches. On the bright side, Jared sold the hell out of Sam’s utter relief at Lucifer finally, finally being gone for good, and I will always and forever appreciate his ability to bring this amazing character to life. It’s too bad Sam’s happiness was so short-lived, but it was still beautiful and gratifying for this fan to see, and if Dean being in Michael Land for a time means we’ll get some Sam focus, POV, and bonding with other characters like Jack and Mary next season, I’m 100% all for it.

I’ve held off on speculating because I always agreed with the overall consensus that Dean!Michael (whether OW or AU) seemed the most likely prospect when discussing Jensen’s new character, with Dean!Death as a dark horse option at best. I’m not sure what to make of it all now that it sounds like this new character will only be in the final scene(s) of the episode, though. Extremely random and unlikely-to-actually-happen-in-any-way thought, but what if Lucifer is defeated by a powered-up Dean and Sam dies as a direct result because his life force is somehow tied to Lucifer’s by virtue of having been resurrected by him? It would be just like Lucifer to have purposely left a few strings attached to his gift to use as leverage, after all, and then Billie could potentially come into play (hence the “See you again soon” and being curious to see what would happen if Rowena killed Sam in 13.19, as well as her confirmation of the brothers’ importance in 13.05) with Dean having to bargain with her/take up the mantle of Old!Death in exchange for Sam’s life. Alternatively, Dean dies himself in the fight against Lucifer and becomes Old!Death as a result. Either way, I think it would be somewhat poetic if the person who kills Death is fated at some point to become the entity. It would also jibe with Jensen’s comment about having big shoes to fill because Julian Richings was absolutely perfect in the role. Problems with my last-minute theory: 1. I find it unlikely the show would kill Sam twice in the span of three episodes. It seems a little excessive even by Supernatural’s standards. 2. I tend to think TPTB might not be ready to let Lucifer die yet (unfortunately), especially if the show continues beyond next season. 3. Billie has worked very well in her role as New!Death, so we don’t technically need another. I guess that could come down to whether or not she’s supposed to be Death the horseman or “just” Death the head reaper who’s standing in until the horseman returns. Yet despite all of the above issues and how much of a given Dean!Michael seems otherwise, I can’t shake my nagging thoughts about the ominous encounters with Billie throughout the season and the outfit and overall vibe of Jensen’s new character. I guess I keep trying to think of ways that Dean!Death could come into play in part because I’m hoping TPTB will actually surprise me rather than go for the obvious (IMO).

Honesty and the ability to ground others are positive qualities one can admire in a friend, just like being able to liven up a room is a positive quality one can admire in a friend. I don’t personally see how Jared’s answer was less about Jensen than Jensen’s was about Jared, but miles vary. Not trying to debate or argue, just sharing my own thoughts. No hate, but I really don’t understand why people get so frustrated with the panel-sharing. That’s just me, of course, and I know others feel differently. Jared’s solo panel yesterday saw Jensen, Rich, and Rob sharing the stage for part or all of the time (I’m aware Jared wasn’t feeling well). Jared was supposed to do a solo panel at Nerd HQ (SDCC 2016, I believe?) but ended up sharing with Jensen, Misha, and Mark Sheppard. Just not that big a deal when it happens regardless of whom it happens to, IMO. All of the actors are friends and no malice is intended. Most of the complaints seemed to come from people who weren’t even in attendance, and some of the comments about (and to) Jared on Twitter over what is, at the end of the day, just a panel, are so heinous and vile that they’re honestly nauseating to read. Those members of the SPN “family” desperately need to gain some perspective, and fast. Editing to clarify that my last comment is directed solely at the people spewing hate, not those voicing their disappointment in a reasonable way!

Genuinely sorry for the cast and fans who were looking forward to WS — I was ambivalent, since I liked the dynamic of Jody and Donna but found Claire grating as a main character, but I feel for those who really wanted a series pickup. Hopefully we’ll see more of these characters and their stories in Supernatural.

I didn’t even bother posting in the episode thread this week because I was too angry and didn’t want to subject anyone who enjoyed it to my negativity, haha. Seeing Sam prevent Lucifer from going through the rift should have been immensely satisfying to this viewer, but I knew — and I mean KNEW, the very second it happened — that the narrative was going to punish him for his decision. The outcome was completely predictable. Sure enough, what could easily have been a swift and unceremonious end at a furious AU!Michael’s hands turned instead into yet another way of making Sam out to be a screwup. Every significant choice Sam makes is Wrong and/or has disastrous consequences so I’m not even surprised anymore, but the real treat has been slogging through numerous comments (on other sites, not here, thank goodness) about how mean and awful that no-good bastard Sam is for ruining poor woobie Lucifer’s shot at redemption and bonding with his son. :) :) :) Between the end of 13.22 and the finale promo, it sure is great to be a Sam fan right now, let me tell you. If this is what preferential treatment by the writers looks like, for the love of all things good in this world, please give it to another character.

@AwesomO4000, I wish I could like your post more than once. There are few things I grow more tired of than the oversimplified reduction of Sam to “arrogant hubris machine” and Dean to “self-sacrificing hero with low self-esteem.” The brothers are layered, multifaceted characters who both have displayed arrogance and low self-worth at various times. As an aside, it’s not evidence of hubris for a person to be the main character in their own dreamscape (pretty normal, actually?), and Dream!Mary said that Sam and Dean saved her. I think you have to be actively inclined to always believe the absolute worst of a character to think the dream sequence was just further proof of yet more arrogance rather than a deep-seated yearning for love and appreciation from the mother Sam was twice robbed of having a relationship with and a desire for everyone he loves to be happy, whole, and together.