cavelupum

Can you provide examples of times when Dean apologized to Sam (for things that either were or were not his fault)? Not trying to be smart, I promise, I just have never felt that Dean’s all that great about actually saying he’s sorry to Sam at least, and I’m honestly happy to correct that impression if I’m wrong. It’s been awhile since I’ve watched some of the older episodes, so for me, I think things get forgotten along the way sometimes.

For me personally (and miles vary, of course), the difference is that Sam knew his plan in 5.22 was going to result in his eternal torture if it worked and still went through with it anyway, and he approached it with an air of taking responsibility for his biggest mistake which was born of listening to Ruby over his brother (“I let him out. I got to put him back in.”). S6 nixed the “eternal” part, obviously, but the point is he didn’t jump in with expectations of ever coming back. In contrast, though he must have recognized the very real risk given the danger involved, I don’t believe Dean went into the fight with Metatron expecting to die, in retribution for his sins or otherwise. IMO, the much better direct comparison to “Swan Song” is Dean becoming the bomb to end Amara. I just don’t see Dean’s unexpected death at Metatron’s hands as being comparable to Sam’s willing sacrifice. FTR, I also never meant to imply that Dean failed to ever take responsibility for his actions at all — what I was trying to get at is that I don’t think the narrative will ever force him to apologize to Sam for actions that directly hurt him the way it forced Sam to apologize seasons later for his “sin” of never looking for a brother he believed dead. I’m sorry if I was unclear.

Not trying to continue the discussion after we agreed to disagree, but for the sake of clarification, I wasn’t referring to Castiel’s death at the end of S12, but his ambiguous fate in S8 when he chose to stay in Purgatory (though Dean, out of an undeserved feeling of guilt, remembered it differently).

I don’t personally see it as throwing a pity party as much as becoming defensive because of the way Dean was framing Sam’s decision to stop hunting, as Dean had just accused him of turning tail on the family business in the previous line. I’m fine with agreeing to disagree, though.

Sam believed Dean was dead, which is why I don’t see it as a sin. 8.01 SAM Nothing says "family" quite like the whole family being dead. DEAN I wasn't dead. [He stands up and walks around SAM.] In fact, I was knee-deep in God's armpit killing monsters, which, I thought, is what we actually do. SAM Yes, Dean. And far as I knew, what we do is the thing that got every single member of my family killed. Castiel’s fate after Dean escaped Purgatory and Mary’s fate at the beginning of this season were just as ambiguous as Dean’s at the end of S7, but I don’t hold it against Dean for assuming the both of them were beyond rescuing. Castiel ultimately came back without the Winchesters’ help, and Dean only changed tune on saving Mary when Jack provided hard proof of her survival. I think grieving and moving on is a normal response to death, not a sin. As to the MoC arc, Dean’s most objectionable actions (IMO) came after he was murdered and cured, not before. Also, dying and becoming a demon weren’t really ways of taking responsibility for his decision to accept the Mark as much as unintended (but undoubtedly tragic and terrible) consequences.

I’m using a spoiler tag to keep this post from taking up the whole page, but here are numerous examples of Sam either directly apologizing or expressing guilt/remorse/responsibility for his actions WRT the original apocalypse arc. It feels like there’s an intense focus on what Sam said to Dean in “Fallen Idols,” in which Sam explains that one of the reasons he went off with Ruby was to feel strong, like he wasn’t just Dean’s kid brother. He also explicitly clarified that this was not Dean’s fault. He was not blaming Dean. Short of groveling on his hands and knees, I’m not sure how many more times Sam would have had to express regret and admit his wrongdoings before the fans who still hold it against him to this day would have been satisfied. I’m not sure how willingly subjecting himself to what he believed would be an eternity of torture at the Devil’s hands is failing to take responsibility for his actions. As for me, I’m certain I’ll go to my grave without ever seeing Dean apologize for anything to do with the Gadreel arc* or his actions during the MoC arc, up to and including nearly killing his brother. It’s only Sam’s sins we get the “pleasure” of revisiting years later à la 11.10 and 11.11 (and not looking for a Dean he believed dead was not a sin in the first place, IMO, much less in need of an entire multi-season redemption arc as you personally interpret it to be). *Just FTR, I have never said and will never say that Dean should have apologized for saving Sam’s life — I already covered why I feel Sam deserved an apology during S9 in my first post on page 106 of this thread.

I think I’ll have to watch this one again to really get a good grasp of how I feel about it overall, but for now, here are a few thoughts after a first viewing last night. I loved the dream sequence that kicked off the episode. I can buy Sam’s fear of Lucifer, but Castiel’s was less convincing — I doubt sitting in a headspace masquerading as the bunker’s kitchen watching television and mostly being left alone by Lucifer, in Castiel’s own words at the time, can compare in any way, shape, or form to what Sam suffered at his hands for over a century at least. I actually thought maybe Castiel was expressing a shared fear mostly for Sam’s benefit as opposed to it being an accurate depiction of how he feels, which is what I’ll choose to believe. Side-eyed him just a little bit on that “we” of his when talking about responsibility, as Castiel was the only one who actually freed Lucifer by saying yes. The fight scene in the nest was confusing due to the lighting and number of characters involved, will definitely need to rewatch it. I thought Dean‘s reunion with Mary was very well-done emotionally. I didn’t take Mary asking where Sam was as a slight on Dean’s importance to her at all, because she only did so after getting a good look at his face and realizing something was wrong, and of course Sam was conspicuous only by his absence which she must also have noticed. It disgusts me that Sam was resurrected by Lucifer of all characters and that he was then immediately put into a no-win situation which forced him to, however reluctantly, do the Devil’s bidding or die (again). I don’t mean that as a knock on the writing as much as a remark on how it made me feel personally, as Sam had to come back somehow, but it feels unnecessarily cruel at this point and I genuinely hated watching it happen. Really hope we see the last of Lucifer soon and that Sam gets his comeuppance, as I feel like there must be few options more repulsive on a visceral level to Sam than being indebted to his torturer. His relieved face at seeing Dean and the others again morphing into that downcast look of shame when Lucifer came walking up behind him made my heart twist. Ultimately, I think my biggest grievance with this episode was how rushed everything felt. I actually would have preferred them to save Sam’s resurrection for next week. Everyone already knows by now that Sam and Dean won’t die permanently until the show ends, but I think Sam’s death here would have felt much more “shocking” and the stakes higher (even if artificially) had they not brought him back before the episode ended. It just feels to me like they don’t let these emotional moments breathe, instead pushing through them as quickly as possible to keep things moving because they’re running out of time. I don’t have any major gripes with how it all went down, but I think a quick scene in which Dean forces his way past Castiel and sees Sam’s body because he can’t bring himself to believe it until his own eyes tell him it’s true would have helped to mitigate that nagging feeling of everyone being able to move forward way too quickly and easily for such a tragic and unexpected turn of events. While the Gabriel/Rowena scene was amusing, I would have happily seen it cut in favor of a bigger and better emotional beat where and when it counted, but I thought everyone did well with what material they had.

Happy 35th birthday to my favorite fictional character! May he have many more. :) Here’s to hoping the next year brings Sam a fantastic storyline!

That’s more proof of what I was saying WRT the show not giving Sam any POV on the matter, though. The entirety of the Gadreel arc was seen through Dean’s eyes even though I personally feel Sam should have been (and was, IMO) just as if not more deeply affected by the fallout. Maybe sympathy for Sam would come more naturally to casual viewers and Dean fans if we got to see Sam’s face fall into despair once out of Dean’s line of sight, or if he got to verbalize his pain to another character if he was too angry to do so with Dean. Maybe not. Either way, it would have been easy to work scenes like that in, but TPTB didn’t care to show him in a sympathetic light. I still feel there’s plenty of reasons to feel sympathy for him and find his anger understandable, but naturally nobody has to agree with me.

It’s not uncommon for people to go for the verbal gut punch or bring up things not directly related to the argument at hand when they’re lashing out. I do not personally believe a Sam who had been heard out, respected, and apologized to would have been as cutting in what he had to say, but we’ll never know for certain. Dean had a right to feel upset by Sam’s words, and Sam had a right to the anger festering within that I feel led to him saying them. Neither of them were saints in this scenario, IMO. I didn’t personally like the way the show dealt with it, with the lingering shot on Dean’s devastated face after Sam leaves and never giving Sam POV thereafter or the opportunity to say his piece about how everything affected him. Sam’s involvement in a storyline that should have left a huge and lasting impact on him on many levels effectively ended with a speech that made a lot of people feel very negatively toward the character, even for years afterward. As to the viewers, I don’t really have an issue with anyone discussing whatever they like, of course, which is why I weigh in with my own thoughts, not to change minds but hopefully to give some perspective on how the other side sees it, I suppose. Maybe it’s just bad luck, maybe it’s down to my perception of things, but it feels like there aren’t a whole lot of Sam-positive places out there to discuss the show with other fans, which is something I do want to do. Hopefully y’all don’t mind having me here regardless, even if we don’t always agree. :) No worries, I knew you were referring to the “Lucifer’s true face” storyline, I just don’t see it as stupid myself because it’s what I’m most looking forward to in the show at the moment, haha. If I didn’t feel personally invested in seeing its resolution, maybe I’d feel differently about it.

I tried to talk myself out of weighing in on this one since I already know my opinion will be unpopular on this forum, but call me a glutton for punishment ‘cause here I go. Obligatory disclaimer that the following is solely how I see things, I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind, YMMV, et cetera. I also don’t particularly want to argue endlessly back and forth about it as much as provide an alternative viewpoint for others to take or leave as they wish, so consider this fair warning that I may be selective in my response(s). I personally feel there’s an argument to be made that Sam would not have gotten to the point of being angry enough to say what he did in “The Purge” had Dean been a better brother himself. Sam’s words were a result of unresolved anger and hurt that Dean never tried to address in any meaningful way but instead seemed to expect to go away on its own because “family.” My first beef with Dean is that he ran away at the end of “Road Trip” when his priority should have been Sam. Sam had just been possessed by two entities at the same time (one a “tenant” for months on end), was freshly healed from having holes drilled into his skull, was stricken with grief at Kevin’s death (in which he played an unwitting but terrible part), was still in such poor physical condition that even an angel couldn’t fix him in one try, and to top it all off, the situation he found himself in was entirely a result of Dean’s initial decision to trust Gadreel, regardless of whether or not Dean was ultimately right in doing so and regardless of his intentions being pure. That Dean believed himself poison was not a good enough reason for him to run away from a problem he helped create when his brother’s need was (IMO) greater than his apparent urge to succumb to his own self-loathing. (I also do not feel it was Sam’s responsibility to talk him into staying, as even though they both were reeling, Sam had it worse and was more of a victim in this particular situation than Dean.) My second beef is how little Dean tried to engage with Sam in a way that would allow Sam to talk and to be listened to and understood. Dean could have made sincere efforts to de-escalate the palpable resentment growing between them at any time, but he largely did not, never really asking Sam how he was doing and feeling or about whether or not he wanted to discuss the matter. What he did do was crack an off-color Teen Mom joke at Sam’s expense and become sarcastic and defensive when Sam brought up no longer considering their relationship one of brothers who could implicitly trust one another. The closest Dean came to appropriate communication outside of 9.13 was at the end of “Sharp Teeth,” but there he mostly brought up how he felt and rambled about up being down and nothing making sense anymore. He almost apologized but stopped himself. When Sam tried to respond by giving voice to his own valid feelings, Dean effectively shut him down by suggesting putting a couple of W’s on the board would be enough to get them past everything and added, in a way that came off as dismissive to me, “whatever happened,” they were family. My third and final beef is that Dean never apologized in any way, shape, or form. FTR, he did not have to apologize for his decision to save Sam’s life if he thought he was right to do so, but he could have apologized for being at least a partial cause of Sam’s pain, for disregarding Sam’s wishes (even if he felt justified in his actions), or for lying to Sam for so long. There is an entire world of difference between doubling down with “I’d do it again” with no further explanation and saying something to the effect of “I would still do anything necessary to save your life, but I’m sorry for everything you’ve gone through.” The former, even if true, is insensitive of Dean to say to someone still suffering from the unresolved fallout of his decision, while something like the latter would at least attempt to come from a place of understanding that Sam too is hurting. Are Dean’s feelings after the infamous speech valid? Yes, but so are Sam’s. Everyone has a boiling point. Given everything that transpired, I can’t fully fault Sam for being supremely ticked by the end of 9.13 and thus being more cutting in his words than he might otherwise have been. What he said was engineered to hurt, but it was also a lashing-out from someone who was deeply hurt himself and whose pain was never fully addressed, and while it might not be a fun thing to watch, I found his reaction realistic and not without explanation. He is human and incapable of always taking the high road, nor should he always be expected to do so. I don’t know, as a Sam fan, it just feels like there’s always more than enough sadness to go around for Dean and his hurt feelings but seemingly much less sympathy for the dude who had good reason to be completely traumatized by the whole affair — we never really do find out to what extent it affected Sam because it’s never discussed in any meaningful way, treated instead as little more than a catalyst for the progression of Dean’s dark arc.

I do remember that scene, but after some digging, it looks like what I was referring to above was what Jared had to say about it all during his Saturday panel at JIB Con 7, if anyone’s curious. I’d link it here, but I’m not sure if that’s allowed or not. For my part, Dean killing Lucifer would make me very unhappy, but that’s mostly because I feel setting Lucifer free again in the first place stomped all over Sam’s sacrifice by undoing what he gave up everything for. Because of that, I really want to see him be the one to definitively end Lucifer, but I’m not averse to him having some help to do so whether that’s from Rowena or Dean or someone else. Is it fair if I say instead that I hope we both have a lot to celebrate after watching the finale? :)

Well, we can agree on that. Sam killing Lucifer is at the top of my want list and underscored. Heck, if I had it my way, Lucifer wouldn’t have been brought back in the first place, but that ship has sailed. Based on what spoilers I’ve seen and read, I don’t think you have anything at all to worry about, but you obviously feel differently and that’s okay. Though I’m really not a big fan of Dean, I still feel the most ideal scenario involves both brothers getting a good individual storyline of equal importance or else sharing an arc in which neither outshines or overshadows the other. The writers seem to disagree or else can’t figure out a way to make it happen, but if it’s any consolation at all, you’re definitely not alone in feeling like your fave gets shunted aside. All down to perspective.

Certainly could be the case, but as a Sam fan, it’s about the only individual “storyline” he has for me to look forward to at the moment, so I’ll take it. Goodness knows it’s not the first time TPTB have retconned things to suit their needs.

Oh, don’t get me started on “We Happy Few,” I’m not sure I’ll ever get over that one, haha. I remember reading somewhere that a scene was cut (thanks, editors) in which Chuck explained to the brothers that he de-powered Lucifer or else did something to render him unable to harm them while in the bunker — I can’t remember the specifics, I’ll have to find it again — so given Sam’s faith and trust in God at the time, I can semi-accept that Chuck’s protection was enough for him then. Granted, when an explanatory scene like that is cut, it does make it seem as though Sam is relatively okay with Lucifer invading his home, his bedroom, for no discernible reason. Yeah, I’m still angry. Symptoms of PTSD, while typically occurring shortly after trauma, can also begin years later, so there’s that. I wouldn’t have complained for a second if they built up to it more than they did, though.

I agree with your headcanon (minus the stupid), since an argument could easily be made for Sam having PTSD. Just off the top of my head, he mentions being kept awake at night by memories of Lucifer’s true face, his worldview has become noticeably more negative this season, and up until his encounter with Rowena in 13.12 he admits he avoids talking about his trauma even with Dean despite knowing he would listen. One potential symptom of PTSD is being easily startled, so IMO, it’s not difficult at all to see how loud noise plus sudden movement plus emotionally charged situation equals a more exaggerated reaction than one might otherwise expect, and displaying an involuntary fear reaction isn’t the same thing as being truly afraid of Dean in general. Whether Jared’s choice or written into the script, it worked extremely well for me. YMMV.

Ack, you’re right, I meant 11.02. I’ll edit it in a sec. There isn’t a direct compliment for Dean in Sam’s prayer, it’s true, but he had plenty of good things to say about Dean in 10.23 and I think he meant every word of them. As to whether or not Sam likes Dean, we can agree to disagree. I’ll admit I found it shocking that there are so many here who believe the opposite of something I’ve never doubted, but we all view the series through different lenses colored by our own experiences and preferences. FTR, and as a general response to the overall discussion, I’m well aware it’s possible to pray for someone without actually liking them, and I know a person can love and dislike another at the same time. :)

It boggles my mind that some folks here genuinely believe Sam dislikes his brother based on what I always viewed as a kind of typical sibling dynamic they both contribute to in various ways as two very different people. In 11.02, absent any kind of audience it could otherwise be argued he was putting on a show for, Sam prayed to God, pleading for better for Dean and saying his brother deserved a life, even if he himself had to die for his sin of releasing the Darkness. This was with his face still busted up from his encounter with MoC!Dean, likely not even twenty-four hours after his mock execution (a well-documented form of psychological torture) during which he spent what he thought would be his last moments telling Dean that he would never see him as anything but good and expressing his faith that Dean would find his way back to the light. I can only hope the people in my life dislike me as much as Sam dislikes Dean.

Thank you for the welcome, MysteryGuest! I’d be fine with Rowena playing a role in the downfall of Lucifer, goodness knows she has plenty of reasons to want him gone. I’m a big fan of her dynamic with Sam and she’s really grown on me over the last few years, so much so that she’s become one of my favorite characters to watch. Curious to see how much (or little) the next few episodes will move her and Sam toward the goal of finishing Lucifer off for good. Whenever he does meet his end, I seem to share your feelings in that I won’t be sad to see him go!

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. I hope nobody minds if I just jump right in with my thoughts on the most recent episode in lieu of a formal introduction. :) I liked Gabriel well enough when he was the Trickster and one of his rare appearances generally heralded an entertaining one-off, but for me, this was way, way too much. Given the episode’s focus on Gabriel, the lookalike Loki, and Speight’s role as director, “Unfinished Business” came across more as a self-serving pet project than a necessary story to tell at this point in the game. If TPTB truly felt the urge to spend the majority of an episode exploring a side character’s backstory and quest for vengeance, I wish they’d had the foresight not to do so in the overcrowded final quarter of the season — I might have been more okay with this one if its timing didn’t make it seem as though it’s just taking up space that could have been used to flesh out more pertinent storylines instead. As someone who really disliked the way 13.17 ended, Sam calling Dean out for sidelining him was cathartic for me, even if I still wish he had stood up for himself more in the moment. Dean feels like he’s regressing, the character growth he displayed in “Who We Are” either forgotten or abandoned by the writers, and the sudden resurgence of the overprotective-big-brother shtick rang hollow to me. Though potentially too optimistic on my part, I’m hoping that the show was trying in this episode to foreshadow Sam finally putting Lucifer down for good, which would right a major wrong that’s been making me grumpy ever since Castiel said yes to the Devil in the first place. Fingers crossed.