LadyPenelope

I’m pretty sure only Cersei went with him, because Tywin was plotting to marry her to Rhaegar. That’s why she convinced Jaime to join the Kingsguard, so he would be in KL too. But Tywin was so furious over it that he quit his job as Hand and took Cersei back to Casterly Rock, leaving Jaime alone there where he remained until the end of the war. Regardless, pretty sure Tyrion was mainly at the Rock. That little pedantry is all I have to say about the episode really. It was very meh. The only scenes that made me feel anything were Tyrion in the rubble, and Brienne writing in the Kingsguard book*. Which is a shame, as Dany dying should have been hugely emotional but felt lacking, maybe due to the acting or the utter lack of chemistry between her and Jon. One thing I found odd was the lack of any future to the current set-up. They are all childless, with little prospect of having children. What will happen when the current group is dead? It just seems like Westeros will be plunged back into war. Even if they plan on voting for the new kings, how long before that turns into a Vatican-esque game of threats and bribes and alliances? *Potentially my favourite scene - I thought that was a great testament to her sense of honour and fairness. I liked the twist to her mouth as she wrote the final line that Jaime “died protecting his queen” - that more than any of the rest of it captured his life and who he was. I’m going to miss Jaime Lannister, the ridiculous idiot.

I am okay with this season too. The plot is a bit rushed and there are a few things I would have done differently, but overall I like it. At the end of the day, the story doesn’t belong to me. If I want something to end exactly how I choose, I will write it myself. ...Of course, my favourite characters got exactly the ending I would have chosen, so it’s easy for me to say.

Cersei was left with no options but to blow up the sept or die. I feel sorry for Loras and Margaery, who were basically prisoners there, but the majority of those people were just there for the satisfaction of seeing the queen put on trial and executed. And, importantly, not for any of her actual crimes, but for having sex outside of marriage. So fuck ‘em all, they deserved to burn. Much like when Dany burned the khals - they wanted her dead for no reason but misogyny so it’s really hard to care. Dany’s more recent pyrotechnics were, I think, an expression of her grief and her rage that the people of King’s Landing were treating her like an invader rather than a liberator. I get it. It’s a shame, but I think her capacity for vengeance has been repeatedly foreshadowed. I don’t, however, think either of them are mad, or enjoy hurting people just for the sake of it. Ramsay Bolton was a psychopath who enjoyed pain for pain’s sake; Cersei and Dany are just ruthless, unyielding and vengeful. As were many men before then who never got called crazy. On a separate note, I loved the shot of Drogon coming out of the darkness and thought it foreshadowed Dany’s actions well - we have been conditioned to love the dragons and cheer them on but in that moment we were reminded of what they really were - terrifying and dangerous.

I hate to be this asshole, but I loved Jaime and Cersei’s deaths. They really are the show’s fucked up OTP and I love that/them. I also loved that this episode was filmed like the Lannisters were the heroes, with the camera cutting from Tyrion’s horror to Jaime desperately trying to make it to Cersei’s side to Cersei watching the city burn as she cried. I was anti-mad Dany but fuck it - I’m 100% here for the tragic tale of the Lannister kids. I hope Jaime is drinking wine with two hands in one of the seven heavens, laughing at the idea he needed redeeming for spending his entire life unflinchingly loyal to the woman he loved. In conclusion, S8 is GoT fan fiction as written by Jaime Lannister and I am all in.

Cersei has already been tortured, imprisoned, publicly humiliated, and watched everyone she loves die or abandon her. She has suffered. I’m sort of coming around to some of these spoilers. I especially like the idea of Arya being distracted from her list by trying to help people in KL. Having her choose life over death is the only way I can see her having any future that isn’t just ‘dead eyed vigilante’. It seems like a lot of the characters are being given endings that are ‘bittersweet’. Jorah died, but he died protecting Dany. Theon died as a Stark, having received absolution from Bran. If these spoilers are accurate, the Hound will go out destroying his brother, Jaime gets a hero moment before dying in the arms of the woman he loves as promised, Jon will be free in the North with Ghost by his side. The only person who is utterly fucked over is Dany.

I think in an ideal world this entire season would have built up to the NK, with time for Jon and Dany to build their relationship, Sansa to make an effort with Dany only to realise that she was never going to agree to Northern independence, Arya to attempt to be a lady of Winterfell then to decide it wasn’t who she was, Jaime to try to be a real boy and have a normal relationship before realising that it wasn’t who he was, Theon and Sansa to spend more time together, etc, etc. Then next season could deal with the aftermath and give Dany more time to lose everything and become gradually more ruthless and frightening.

I completely agree with you on both points. Brienne is a romantic, she loved Renly and knew she would never be with him, and she has loved Jaime for years. Then, just when she had let herself be vulnerable and started to believe he loved her and had chosen her, he abandoned her and went off to die. Of course she was devastated - that’s just being human. Nobody criticises Dany for crying over Jorah. Showing emotion isn’t weakness. And I would have been fine with Sam’s fear if he had accepted that he wasn’t a soldier, and gone to the crypts. But he insisted on fighting, was offended at the thought that he not be on the front line, and then got people killed by falling apart. It also seemed out of character for a self-professed coward not to realise that he wouldn’t be of use.

I don’t think Jaime is heading off to enact bloody vengeance to protect Brienne. He didn’t seem to have much of a reaction to Bronn coming to kill them, until his face changed when Bronn said that obviously Cersei was going to die. Later he has the same reaction when Sansa talked about Cersei being executed. If they wanted him to be going off to kill Cersei, all they needed was to change Sansa’s last line to ‘Dany’s lost another dragon and Missandei and now Cersei might win!’ and have Jaime look grim and determined. But instead she said it as evidence that Cersei will definitely die, and Jaime looked stricken. I don’t think he’s off to fight for her, or to try to save her. Maybe he will kill her, if she is doing something terrible when he arrived. But I think he is simply doing exactly what Brienne said - going to die with her.

Lena Headey and Emilia Clarke were both excellent this episode. I loved the scene where Cersei told Euron about her pregnancy - every time he was looking at her face she was smiling, and every time he looked away her face fell. Her reaction during Tyrion’s speech was also a lovely piece of acting. And Dany’s facial expressions over Jorah, and then Rhaegal and Missandei, were heartbreaking.

Well, Jaime and Brienne sleeping together was revolting. As is the set up for Dany to turn into the next Mad Queen. I’m not sure if I am supposed to be rooting against her as she watches everyone she loves die and finds herself alone with all her advisors turning against her, but at this point I hope she burns them all.

I’m trying not to be too much of a brat about it, but I will definitely be deciding whether or not to bother watching based on reading an episode synopsis first. This may be the point I give up on the show and wait for the (ghost written, after GRRM’s death) books.

I think the only person Tyrion would betray Dany/the Starks for is Jaime - might fit with the spoilers about Jaime being taken hostage and Tyrion freeing him?

I think Margaery, and Sansa herself, would both have played it differently - if they had the relevant information. From Sansa’s perspective, her dad is suddenly being awful and forbidding her to be with the boy she loves - which is a classic romance trope. In another story, in another world, Sansa would be the romantic heroine. Thinking about how other characters would react reminds me that Cersei at the same age has a similar moment of defiance when she pulls strings to get Jaime onto the Kingsguard behind Tywin’s back. Similarly with Lysa. Arya repeatedly goes against what her parents ask her to do because she doesn’t want to play the role she is supposed to, Really, apart from Cat, most of them have moments of parental defiance - Sansa’s just happens to end in tragedy.

No offence taken - it’s just a tv show. 😂 Sure, as I said - the consequences turned out to be severe. A lot of people had a role to play in Ned’s death - if Jon Arryn hadn’t died (Littlefinger), if Bran hadn’t been pushed from the tower (Jaime), if an assassin hadn’t been sent to kill him (Joffrey), if Tyrion hadn’t been arrested (Cat), if Ned had agreed to work with Cersei or Renly, if Renly hadn’t then abandoned him, etc, etc. Sansa played her part, and was punished disproportionately for it. I still think what she did was understandable given her upbringing and the fact that she was left in the dark about why they had to leave KL. She made a mistake, she suffered for it, but I don’t think that one moment completely defines her as a character.

I like Book Sansa, and I don’t mind Show Sansa, but neither is my favourite. However, I don’t think this is a fair reading. She was a sheltered, naive, and yes, silly, little girl. She made a stupid decision, but I hardly think it was that shocking - she trusted Cersei and loved Joffrey, and she was a child. Dany has been on the run for her whole life, while Sansa has been coddled and taught to be gentle and trusting and ladylike. Robb might only be two years older, but I would say that his youthful mistakes were much more costly. Sansa made (IMO understandable) mistakes. She played a small part in Ned’s death, and suffered terribly for it. That doesn’t make her an evil, irredeemable bitch - it makes her human. ETA: I also wanted to add that the male Starks were treated like men, from the beginning. Even Bran had to go and watch an execution and learn about how to be a lord. Sansa was not given any information. If Ned had told her anything about why he wanted to leave, that she couldn’t trust Cersei and why, etc., she might have listened. But she was treated like a child, so she behaved like a child.

Yes. It has always been like this. From the first book, Sansa and Arya were set up as opposites - the spunky, anachronistic tomboy who wants to fight and hates sewing, and the beautiful, delicate lady who just wants to marry a handsome prince. And because we have fundamentally been socialised to prefer women who display stereotypically masculine traits, everyone loves Arya and hates Sansa. Then she told Cersei about Ned’s plans to leave KL (because she was 12, and naive, and in love) and that pretty much sealed her fate with a vocal section of the fans. On the other hand, her show characterisation over the last season has been odd at best. For somebody who lives by the maxim that ‘a lady’s armour is courtesy’, she sure has been struggling to show any to Dany or her people. And I do wish she had had a scene in the crypts other than sitting in silence. Maybe not singing songs like at Blackwater, but she could have given some rousing message about the strength of the North.

I don’t think Sansa wants the throne - she just wants to be left alone and for the North to rule itself. Whether it’s Dany or Cersei preventing that doesn’t seem to make much difference to her. I hope that changes next episode after seeing Dany fight, die, and lose the people she cared about most in order to keep Winterfell and its inhabitants safe. Leaving aside Jon/Dany/Sansa for a sec, what do we think Jaime is going to do now? He hasn’t acknowledged Dany as his queen, and surely he won’t join the attack on King’s Landing. But he also can’t waltz back home and pretend everything is cool. So what are they going to do with him?

There are parts of this I like, but I’m still not buying it. Jon going back to the Wall actually seems plausible to me. In the books there is no Night King so the WW could well be a threat that appears ongoing. Jon going back to rebuild the wall and protect the living wouldn’t be outrageous, and there is certainly precedent for a Targaryen refusing the throne to serve with the NW. The last lines on the show being “I am the sword in the darkness, I am the watcher on the wall...” would actually be quite fitting. Tyrion freeing Jaime to save him from execution would also be appropriate. However. I find Bran as king completely implausible. And I would hate for Dany to die, after all those people have laid down their lives to bring her to Westeros and make her queen. I’m assuming that if Jon did kill her it wouldn’t be for trying to kill Lannisters but because there is a lot of collateral damage or something, but I still find it hard to believe. Is there any evidence for the accuracy of these spoilers?

I agree that he still loves her and doesn’t want her dead. But I think thematically that him killing her and then dying himself makes sense - they were born together, they will die together. Killing the mad king was an act of heroism misconstrued by the world as something evil; it would be fitting if he killed the mad queen in an act that the world would see as heroic and he would feel to be his greatest tragedy. Plus I’m a romantic!

Watching a night later than everyone else gives me a lot of reading to catch up on! In summary: I don’t especially like Arya but I didn’t mind her killing the NK - it felt earned. Plus it means she is unlikely to be the one to kill Cersei, which pleases me. The Jon/Dany relationship has soured me on Dany so much that I had forgotten that I actually like her. I really felt for her this episode, as she lost everything she had fought so hard for - the Dothraki, including Drogo’s last bloodrider and her last link to him, the Unsullied, and her best friend. I lost it when Jorah died. They were one of the only two relationships on this show I care about, and I’m glad he died protecting her, but my god that was heartbreaking. Jon was fine. In fact, the only character who irritated me this episode was Sam, just flopping around getting people killed after refusing to go to the crypts. I thought that much as Sam was a self-described craven, when push came to shove he had always stepped up. He really didn’t here. I don’t understand why anyone would expect Sansa to fight - she would have been killed immediately. It’s not like Tyrion took her dagger and charged into battle, and he has a lot more combat experience than she does. I was surprised though that she made no attempt to speak to the women and children a la Blackwater. She didn’t have to sing a song, but even a speech about how bravely those outside were fighting might have been a comfort. At least Cersei provided refreshments - the crypts seemed to be BYOB. Theon’s death was sad, but fitting. I’m glad he acknowledged Winterfell as his home, and went some way towards making up for his previous actions. I hope the people are told about his courage. Cersei was absolutely right to sit this one out. Now the WW are gone, and her enemy’s army is vastly depleted. However, the decision did cost her Jaime, and that may be an even bigger loss than she currently realises if he comes back to kill her. I’m still assuming/hoping it will be him, although if we are talking about who deserves to kill her, the answer is clearly Tyrion.

I agree. Brienne is basically Sansa, if she had the misfortune to look more like the knight in the songs than the fair maiden. But that is still what she wants, and Tormund isn’t that guy. I do hope that if she survives, she meets somebody who she loves and who loves her - Tormund’s leering and Jaime’s desperate need to refocus his obsession on somebody he perceives as good and honourable don’t really cut it.

She was forced to marry him when she was 13. He may have been the best of a bad lot, and stood up for her a couple of times, but he was essentially her captor. He agreed to marry her, he stood by while his father plotted to murder her mother and brother. She is cordial enough to him and hasn’t tried to have him killed - she doesn’t owe him more than that, and he did no more for her.

I always think about this old Arrested Westeros photo, which I still think is the most accurate summary of Jaime/Brienne I have ever seen.

Ugh, this pissed me off no end - he said it like it was so long ago and he has grown and changed since then, conveniently forgetting the fact that his sister is literally pregnant with his child as he speaks. Jaime’s Redemption (TM Jaime) was so overblown and self-congratulatory this episode that I am now actively rooting for Bronn to crossbow him.

Yeah, I’m afraid I’m genuinely rooting for Cersei. Like - I want her to have her baby and Jaime and live happily ever after. It’s probably not the most popular opinion. I used to think Sansa would be a good endgame queen, but not this Sansa. At this point, there is nobody who might realistically have a shot at the throne who I care about.