lovett1979

Don't worry, we Americans don't learn much more than "John Wilkes Booth killed Abraham Lincoln because he was unhappy the South lost the Civil War."

I'm enjoying my re-watch (thank you Prime!!!) and am almost through Season 3. When you binge, you notice continuity errors more than during normal weekly watching I think. This show is usually good about that but a few things have bothered me. First is a production/airing obvious flip. At the end of "Democracy in America," Chris walks into the polling place in a suit, and having cut his hair short and slicked it back. The next episode to air (according to IMDB, Wiki, and on Prime) was "Three Amigos" and Chris appeared in that episode (mostly reading from The Call of the Wild) and his hair was back long. I was a little surprised at first and even went back to Democracy... to see if I had missed a ponytail or something the first time. But the following episode (Lost and Found) shows Chris with short (but not nearly as slicked) hair again. So, for whatever reason, Three Amigos was filmed before (at least the end of) Democracy... None of this is important, but it's still curious. Second is the change to how Adam is known/viewed by the town. In season 1, he is presented as an almost mythical sasquatch-like creature. When Joel tells people he met him, they don't even believe him because they don't really believe he exists. In the season 3 episode "Roots," Adam shows up in the bar and starts cooking. No one seems to know that he is THE Adam, but they do see that he and Joel kind of know each other? By "Dateline: Cicely" Adam seems to be fully integrated into the town as "someone who comes and goes and cooks great food and is kind of crazy." No more mythical beast in the woods. Finally, Maggie's house burns down. Her mom is then somehow staying with Maurice, while Maggie has to sleep on a pool table at the bar??? Why couldn't Maggie also stay at Maurice's? He clearly has room for at least 3 guests (as seen is Seoul Mates) and probably more. And once this episode is over, it's like it never happened. There's no mention of where Maggie is staying, or that she has to re-build her house, or anything. It's a weird thing to drop, and re-building it (maybe having to stay with Joel, since she owns that cabin anyway) could have made for some interesting plotlines. I'm also realizing how much Rob Morrow on this show (along with the animated Aladdin) shaped what I found attractive during my teen years. Loved me a floppy-dark haired boy.

I watch Resident Alien on SyFy which takes place in a small town in Colorado that has a mixed white and native population. In a recent episode, one of the white residents has an owl sitting and staring in her window. She mentions this to some of her native friends and they immediately started acting uncomfortable. Eventually, one of them (played by Sarah Podemski, actually) tells her that owls are considered bad luck and stuff in their culture, BUT I ALREADY KNEW THAT THANKS TO THIS SHOW.

I really enjoyed this show, I think there was a lot of wonderful things about it, but now I'm going to complain a bit. The show tried to do too much, and in in trying failed at most of it. My understanding is the book is really just focused on their story in the 50s and the Lavender Scare (please correct me if I'm wrong). The show expands Hawk/Tim's story to cover 30 years, creates the Marcus/Frankie story to explore how black and more fem gays experienced the same eras, delves into the twisted world of McCarthy/Cohn/Shine, and also tries to teach gay history over 30 years in the US. With only 8 hours to do this all, this was impossible. I think it's Tim's story that really suffers because of this. He seems to go through the most change of all the characters, but that change often comes without reason and seem to swing back and forth. I'm going to attempt to put (what we see of) his story in chronological order: 1952 - Idealistic, anti-communist, devoutly Catholic Tim meets and falls for Hawk. 1953 - Their relationship continues, but Tim is bothered by Hawk's distance and conflicted with his own Catholic guilt. He also starts to turn against McCarthy after his pivot to target gay people in government. 1954 - After a disturbing encounter with Cohn and realizing Hawk will never be the man he wants him to be, Tim leaves his job and enlists in the Army. ? - Tim leaves a note under Hawk's apartment door saying he loves him but needs to find some other purpose. 1957 - Tim (out of the Army now, I guess) sends Hawk a telegram about helping refugees which leads to them meeting up, Hawk getting Tim a job at State, and them rekindling their relationship. Tim seems to not have any Catholic guilt over loving a man or issues over Hawk's relationship limitations. The affair ends when Hawk torpedoes the job (and any future government employment for Tim) though Tim chooses not to explode Hawk's life when he sees his newborn child. 1968 - Tim is now in seminary and is an anti-Vietnam war activist. (WHERE DID ANY OF THAT COME FROM???) He's back to feeling guilty about his sexual desires but also so committed to the anti-war movement that he's willing to go to prison for many years. 1979 - Tim is now a fully-comfortable, self-actualized gay man living in San Francisco and working in a health center. (AGAIN, WHERE DID ANY OF THAT COME FROM???) He's seeing someone but gets drawn back into Hawk's world until Hawk disappoints him. 1986 - Tim is dying of AIDS, passionate about queer and AIDS-related politics, and Hawk comes to see him. They finally make peace and Tim dies. The show spent 5 of its episodes on those first 3 years alone! And then tried to speed through the remaining 30 years in just 3 episodes. They should have either stayed in the 50s entirely, or eliminated all the McCarthy/Cohn/Shine stuff and focused more on Tim, Hawk, and their full lives. In Episode 2, Tim's sister tells Hawk that he ruined Tim from loving any other man. That may be true, but we never get to see any evidence of that. I guess maybe the fact that Tim said he was seeing someone but than had a threeway with Hawk on Fire Island? But my interpretation of the sister's statement was that Tim loved Hawk so deeply he could never love anyone else. Considering we get to spend 30 years with these characters, it might have been nice to be shown that, rather than told. One character who I wish we had a little more time with was Leonard Smith. We never see or hear of him after Hawk takes him to the conversion therapy institute. Did he just stay there the rest of his life? He was Lucy's brother! I know she was bothered by what he did she just cut him out of her life and never think of him again. When ECT as part of conversion treatments was mentioned in the Fire Island episode, I expected at least a guilty look from Hawk thinking about what he did, but no, nothing. I would have loved to see Lucy's attitude about gays evolve to where she loved her brother again, though still felt betrayed and abandoned by her husband. Again, I really enjoyed this show but I'm disappointed that it was maybe too ambitious given its limitations. Feel free to argue with me, and please correct my timeline if I missed something.

I wish more Hollywood executives understood this sentiment.

I had an issue with the polygraph test, and the fact that Hawk was considered to have "passed" it. He didn't answer like he was a heterosexual, he answered like he was a homosexual who was lying but manipulating the device to not appear "flustered." If you are straight (especially at this time), and you are asked those questions, isn't the natural response to be outraged and disgusted by the ideas themselves? Not to calmly state "no" and have the machine determine if your heartrate rises or not. It felt very "yes I am but you can't get proof so you can't get me" and I can't imagine that would be enough for them to drop the case.

Ok, it took me way too many times through this series to see it, but there is a parallel to Nick getting Ben off of Charlie in the very first episode and Charlie getting Harry out of Nick's face at the bonfire in this episode. They both punctuate their actions by saying "Piss off." I love how many moments in this second season are callbacks and comparisons to similar moments in the first season.

Just watched this video about the sex (or lack there of) in Heartstopper and the criticism around it. I was surprised (and a bit disappointed) about the lack of sex (or, just, anything more than kissing) this season, especially because the idea was spoken about in episodes 4 (I'm sure we'll "do it" one day) and 6 (when Nick says he isn't ready to do more than kissing and Charlie says he wants to do (or not do) what Nick wants to do (or not do)). At then end of the Prom party, after everyone leaves and they go up to Nick's room holding hands, it seemed like that was absolutely where things were going (because storytelling and character development/arcs and TV tropes about prom night, lol). They did not go there, but did become intimate in a much deeper way, with Charlie opening up about the bullying and self-harm, and Nick almost saying "I love you." This could be due to Alice being asexual, or Netflix wanting a sanitized show, or the show trying to be accessible to as many audiences (and ages) as possible. Who knows? I'm currently reading through the graphic novels and I'm looking forward to seeing if their interactions in Volume 3 are much different than in this season. I also think there are some real-world complications to this that are perhaps warping our perception of how we think they should be acting. The characters of Nick and Charlie are 16 and 14/15, respectively, throughout these 2 seasons. Kit was 17 when S1 was filmed and 18 when S2 was filmed (and his bulk-up has made him seem even older, I think). Joe was 17 when S1 was filmed and 19 when S2 was filmed (he's actually older than Kit, even though Nick is older than Charlie). So we may be perceiving them as 18/19 year-olds when the characters are 15/16. Also, season 1 premiered in April 2022. It is now August 2023. So for us, their relationship has been going on for 16 months. But in the timeline of the story, they meet in January, first kiss in April, declare they are boyfriends/Nick comes out to his mom at the end of May, go to Paris at the end of June, and prom night is probably mid-July. So it's only been 7 months since their meeting, and 3 months since their first kiss.

Lol, I'm addicted to Heartstopper reaction videos on YouTube. Literally every one of them are like "just get some makeup from the girls," "a little concealer goes a long way," "it's Paris, wear a turtleneck or a scarf" when the hickey is revealed. The fact that Charlie didn't even consider any of this is kind of naïve and sad.

I've learned that in the books, Tao is not yet aware about Nick and Charlie's relationship when they go to Paris. So this sleeping arrangement is how it ends up in the book (with no reason to think it should be otherwise). The image of them holding hands from either bed is apparently taken directly from the book. So while it may seem a little odd to not let Nick and Charlie share a bed, it's the show's way of staying true to some aspects of the source. Also, even with Tao and Isaac knowing about them in the show, it's maybe a little awkward (especially for teenagers) to be sleeping in the same room with a couple who is sharing a bed.

Honestly, I had that feeling during the last scene of the first episode. Charlie was telling Tory how he was going to keep Nick safe and he wouldn't have to deal with the negative things Charlie had, while we saw Nick beaming as he walked away from Charlie's house. But nothing bad happened then. I just don't think it's that kind of show. Most of the conflict comes from internal feelings and past traumas. But no, they haven't said "I love you" yet. In Season 1 finale, Nick said "I love liking you" and in the bedroom in this episode, it's pretty clear that Nick is about to say it when his mom comes home and breaks the moment. I think that's why Charlie felt the urge to text it to him at that moment. But this is not the kind of show that uses tragedies and obstacles just for dramatic purposes so I don't think we have to worry about that.

American here too, but I think that prom DID happen at the end of their school year. Google says that GCSEs are in May and British school year runs from early September to mid or late July. So I guess the Paris trip people got to miss a week of school in, like, June or something, and then when they came back it was basically the end of the year and they had their prom. There's also a conversation between Nick and Charlie that mentions the Summer holidays coming after the Paris trip.

(continuing my thoughts from S2E5 thread) Tao is fiercely devoted to his friends, which is a wonderful thing. But there were times in season 1 that seemed a little overboard (at least to me). His fear that anything (or anyone) new might take his friends away from him caused a kind of hysteria. His worries about Nick were that he would either be cruel to Charlie, or take him away from Tao. The fact that Charlie was cancelling plans with Tao and the gang only fueled this fear. And when Elle befriends Naomi and Felix at the beginning of these season, Tao is more worried about her getting new friends than he is happy that she's found other trans teens to be friends with. In this final episode, Tao talks about losing his father at a young age. He identifies that that loss has caused him to value and cling to his friends even more closely and this helps explain his actions. I love that we are getting all of these explanations. And it is all part of a larger theme of this season of our past experiences (especially negative ones) informing our present feelings and actions.

One of the things that I love about this show is how we are constantly learning things about the characters that help explain their previous actions. In season 1, Tao says that he thinks Charlie didn't tell him about Nick because he was afraid he'd say something stupid and accidentally out him to the other boys at school. Not sure about anyone else, but this always struck me as a somewhat tangential and specific thing for Tao to think Charlie would be worried about. Well, now we find out that it was him accidentally outing him last year that led to all the bullying. This makes so much sense as to why Tao would fear the same thing happening with Nick, and also Tao's overprotectiveness and worrying about bullying with Charlie last season. Tao has been haunted by this (accidental) transgression to the point where it has taken over much of his thinking. I think finally telling Charlie, and receiving Charlie's forgiveness and love in response, was really healing for Tao. (continuing this thought in S2E8 thread)

My response contains spoilers for Schitt's Creek. Not using spoiler bars. In so many ways the Nick/Charlie story mirrors the Patrick/David story on Schitt's Creek. (almost point by point in the first season and in more small ways in season 2) Nick's hesitation to coming out (especially when given the opportunity to by Imogen and then the rugby friends) doesn't seem rooted in a fear of danger but more similar to Patrick's feelings about coming out to his parents. Patrick says "I know my parents are good people, I just...I can't shake this, this fear that there is a small chance that this could change everything. That they might see me differently, or treat me differently." I think Nick is feeling similarly about coming out, even to friends who are clearly asking and would be great about it.

I think in trying to not label Isaac before the show was ready to, they may have made things a little confusing. In the first season, Charlie says his friends aren't gay (when Mr Ajayi asks if he can talk to his friends about the situation with Ben). But then Tao refers to himself as Charlie's "token straight friend." So Isaac is neither gay nor straight (nor bi because Charlie's "bisexual people exist" in episode 2 is not delivered in the way he would if Isaac was bi himself). In Season 2, yes it's mentioned that Charlie and James are the only gay guys on the trip, but also no one seems surprised that something is possibly going on between Isaac and James. And Isaac does seem somewhat interested in him, but is not sure if he's having the "right" feelings. Spoiler if you haven't watched the rest of Season 2

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I hadn’t thought about that aspect of Elle’s life and experience.

I love mama bear Olivia Coleman not allowing any of David's shit and reading him the riot act in the kitchen.

Especially given the hickey, it seems very dangerous for Nick and Charlie to spend so much time so close to each other this episode. Since everyone know Charlie's "gettin' some" you'd think their first guess would be the guy that he spends all his time with, holds hands with, stares into each others eyes with, etc. I suppose the purpose of Charlie's mom being surprised to hear Nick is queer (he's sporty and lad-ish, lol) is that most people see him similarly and just would never consider he might be the one? I love how angry Tao is at Nick for giving the hickey, though. And James' repeated proclamations that it wasn't him is so sad but cute. I love that after he gets Charlie's assurance that Isaac knows it wasn't him, he then worries for a second that maybe it was actually Isaac, so adorable! I realized we never see Sahar meet the guys so it's not clear if/when she's made aware of Charlie being gay and/or him and Nick dating (but it being a secret). She meets the girls at their school, and then they are all sitting together at the Paris trip meeting and she's rooming with Elle and Tara and Darcy and they're all exploring Paris together (where Nick and Charlie are awfully close to each other). But at the start of this episode, when Tao is chastising Nick, she is sitting there with them and seems fully up to speed. Interesting that Nick had no problem with a new person knowing everything, but having a hard time telling his friends and family.

When Elle meets Naomi, Naomi says she's looking forward to going to the art school and no longer being just "the trans girl" and Elle seems to identify with that feeling. But the thing is, we never see her have any issues relating to her trans-ness. In the first season, bullying and non-acceptance when she was transitioning while attending the boys' school is mentioned, but she's been accepted fully at the girls' school like any other girl (were it not for the fact that she had transferred from Truham, would anyone even know she's trans?) and even when she's attended events for both schools (sports day, Paris trip, Prom), no one seems to recognize/remember her or says anything. (granted, we never see the guys who bullied Charlie pre-series either) It's not that I want to see her having issues, and one of the delightful things about Hearstopper is its ability to tell queer stories without trauma, but that conversation with Naomi just doesn't make sense, giving what we've seen about Elle's life.

When Imogen said she had a new crush I knew it was going to be Ben. She is me and I am she and girl's got a type!

American here but I think I can answer. Year is the year of schooling you are in. Joe (and Tao, Isaac, Tara, and Darcy) is in Year 10 and Nick (and Elle, Ben, Imogen, and Harry) is in Year 11. Form is similar to what we call Homeroom or Advisory. Someone commented on the S1.E1 thread that "Form room was where we would start the day, and later in the day, too. Our form teacher was our main teacher, who would also show up in another class. One of mine was our history teacher." In the very first scene of the series, the Stephen Fry headmaster says "Don't forget there'll now be students for all school years in your new form groups." and Charlie has his new form room number written on his hand. So Truham clearly just switched from having year-based forms to all-year forms. I don't know how common either system actually is, but this new grouping was what allowed Charlie and Nick to meet so...

"singing along" is not a goal of musical theatre

That is exactly what it is. Highly recommend.

Did they not do Best Book of a Musical during the pre-show but did Best Score as the first award (and played-off the winners?)??? The score of a musical is the most enduring aspect of anything awarded tonight. To dismiss it like this is unforgivable, but to elevate the book of a musical to the main broadcast while score is ignored is ridiculous.