HariboPeach

Super late to the party, but I just finished this one last night. I loved Piper and Alex in Season 1, but ever since then, they've been a hot mess. This marriage proposal felt so forced and out of left field that I was more annoyed than happy when it happened. They would barely last 1 day outside prison at this point.

I was heavily involved in social media aspect of OUAT in Seasons 1 and 2, and there wasn't much clamoring for Snow and Charming back then either. They were already together and shared true love, so there wasn't much for fans to freak out about. Shippers are the true downfall of every damn show. This is sad because it is daunting to post anything against Emma or Hook. I've done it before and then quickly exited stage left. It's not fun when you're quoted and responded to in all caps or called out for siding with a rapist and a murderer or an abusive coward. And it sucks to see people high fiving each other for disagreeing with the minority opinion. If this were real life, every one of these people would be pretty despicable. But sometimes you want to come and chat for fun about a show you enjoy. I know there are people who have studied every detail of the show and prepared term papers about it, but for me it's passing enjoyment. I couldn't tell you the name of Season 4, Episode 7, but I can tell you that I loved when Rumple and Belle recreated the Beauty and the Beast dance. Henry is probably the worst character in the series. He's always been terrible, but it was easier to take when he was little. Seeing him as a goofy spoiled teenager thinking he's the the last hope of an unjust world is sickening.

I was simply appreciating her civility. It wasn't about me specifically. It's an overarching observation. So this episode though, huh? I found the Black Fairy to be a pretty weak Original Evil. I think Hades was a much more formidable villain. I'm not sure why they touted her as the worst ever when they could have just played up the Rumple's mother part.

I love this. Thank you. And your reasoning makes perfect sense.

Love 'em. They make the best wine. You may be sure you're not the only one, but take a look through. See what posts get the likes. The ones that disagree with any dissenters. And clearly not because they're all well thought out and explained. Negative posts about Hook are met with defensiveness and condescension. If you don't agree, I invite you to view them. Clearly we are off topic here. I'll bow out.

If you don't find Hook attractive, then that opinion would not be aimed at you. That's why I said not everyone that likes him likes him only superficially. But yes, if we are making generalizations about the board, I would say that most people here fawn over Hook much more than any other character. And it's not like that everywhere else. I'm not trying to make waves with dissenting opinions. But it seems like every time I make a positive post about Regina, or anything remotely anti-Hook, I get lots of replies telling me how wrong I am. That's disheartening when participating in an open forum.

I believe the main reason people cut Hook more slack than Regina or Rumple is because they find him attractive, so it's easier to look at his crimes against humanity as not that bad because he's sad sometimes. I'm not saying that everyone who likes him likes him only superficially, but I do think that is part of it. He's done lots of bad stuff too. I do like him as a character, but I won't put him on a pedestal. I wish I had the depth of knowledge to throw episodes and specific script notes around to back up my opinions, but I can't possibly remember everything. In most cases, it's about 436 to 1. CaptainSwan shippers vs...me. (As a side note, I think the "like" system of this site is nonsensical. The only time people get likes on their posts is if they participate in the hivemind of the forum. So JoeSchmoe has 23 likes on a post saying 'but they are true loves, canon says so!' while JaneSchmane has 0 likes on a well thought out post highlighting a differing opinion. It's really not fair that someone who has interesting things to say ends up looking like a schmuck (or neutral in site terms) when someone else who just spews the overriding opinion of the forum looks like a superstar poster.)

In that vein, Regina was tortured by Hook, and her "Soulmate" (blech) was killed. She offered to die for the sake of all of them, Emma didn't let her. If the showrunners have said that Captain Hook is "not as bad" as the other villains, then I have missed those. In the interviews I've read and videos I've watched, I've always seen him lumped into the villain category. Murder is murder, rape is rape, torture is torture. Semantics, but in Season 1, she knew she had to change for Henry. So, I wouldn't say pure villain. And even if her attempt amounted to "nothing", the intent was there. Which is an argument used regularly with Captain Hook, since he is viewed as a "better" villain, though he did many of the same things as the other two.

Ok, definitely a YMMV based on bias toward certain characters. I get it. I like Hook but I don't think he's in a special class away from Regina and Rumple. They've all done despicable things, being more vocal about it doesn't change the deeds.

Didn't she just recently do that though in "Page 23"?

Regina has questioned it throughout the series. There was the villains don't get happy endings and that whole schtick. She's been working toward redemption for six seasons, whether or not you agree with her methods. Regina is definitely aware of the horrors of her past.

By all rights that logic would apply to Captain Hook as well. We know he's murdered, tortured, pillaged, etc. He got his happy ending without consequence (unless you count sad sacking about the past, which Regina has also done quite a bit of).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the movies, books, biographies, etc. that have shown Grace Kelly's marriage to the Prince as a sham. That while she was shown to the public as content and in love, in reality, she was miserable and humilated and wanted to leave him, but couldn't for fear of losing her children. She left Rainier for a few years to "oversee" her kids' education at some international boarding school. And she wanted to go back to Hollywood but again, couldn't. She was trapped. Strange choice for a "fairytale wedding" to aspire to. Even if it's all speculation based on third-party accounts, it's still a bit surprising.

I'm just saying the decision should not have been as easy as it is being portrayed. Y'all disagree with me. Vehemently. And that's ok, my opinion is my own and I'm cool with that. I don't feel the same about the unconditional deal with Killian and Emma, though it seems like that's all part of the echo chamber up in here. It's good to have differing opinions, it obviously fires people up.

I do realize that, thank you! I used the apple as an example to make a point. Fine, lets say Regina dropped a foot. Better comparison? Again, with the TL. I was making a point. About choosing who to save. No offense intended toward the epic and timeless love of Emma and Killian, I assure you. But if we're so beholden to canon, then their best friend relationship is established and fawned over by tptb. So it would make sense for Emma to save her.

And we're back to subjectiveness. I don't believe Regina cast the sleeping curse at all. Yes EQ is two halves of a whole but EQs actions were not Reginas actions and that is completely in the show's mythos. Everyone may not agree but there it is. And I'm sorry, I just don't feel it's as clear cut as you do. I think a real choice was presented. It wasn't a gimme, at least in my opinion. I'm familiar with forum schtick. I meant this particular situation, not analysis in general. :)

Let's flip it then. Say it was Regina in Neverland. Do you think Emma should have left Snow/Charming to rot in their sleep curses, or save her BFF whose shadow dropped an apple or something. You can say tomato/tomahto, because of the relationship, but if Emma was SO VERY SURE that the 'rents could be saved by some fuckery or another, than she would have been obligated to save Regina. But I think people would have flipped their shit if Emma had done that for anyone besides Killian. It just seems like way too much dissecting and analysis to come to a very subjective conclusion. And like I said before, I can see both sides. I don't think that people saying she didn't make the right choice are necessarily wrong though.

I kinda wish it was Betty, since they are going to whole Dark Betty route. Obviously it wasn't, but that definitely would have been a twist!

I didn't, your post said MORE beef. I was just wondering where you found that to be true. Certainly not in this forum? I think there have been maybe 3 people in total that don't think the Emma/Killian flower petal reunion was the best thing eva.

Eh, not sure if it's black and white because I can definitely see both sides. We, the audience, know he was about to die. His shadow was all 'goodbye my love' because we know he's about to die. But from their perspective, he's been gone a while, misses her, trying to get back, etc etc, strokes her face to let her know he still cares. Could go either way.

Killian: I'm sorry, Emma. I should have told you what I did to your grandfather all those years ago. And I should never have even considered running away. Emma: It's ok. I didn't exactly make it east for you to tell me the truth. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This argument has gone round and round but I think someone mentioned above it depends on which glasses you view things through. Emma/KIllian 'ship glasses or Emma/Snow-Charming glasses. Since we're in a heavily biased Emma/Killian forum they'll be lots of agreement with the idea that she did what she had to do, but on other corners of the net there are tons of people who think Emma turned into a self centered jerk who gave up everything she used to be for a dude. I find both Emma and Regina are weak knockoffs of their former selves (Rumple too for that matter), and this episode did nothing to dispel that notion.

Sure, but in front of each other like that? On display in a 'competition' style setting? I thought it was pretty strange.

I don't think it's Emma' responsibility, but she should care about it since they are her parents and all. Is Emma getting more beef? I don't see that at all. At all. Where did the idea that it was Emma's sole responsibility to fix Regina's mess come from? A solution was given to her and she had a choice how to use it. She chose to go save Killian. Regina had no intention of giving up looking for a sleeping curse cure, so again, I'm not sure where this is coming from?

Even though I love Veronica and think she is super good-looking, I didn't love the cheerleading ass shakes. I can't picture the other high school girls clapping along and fist pumping. I think they'd be staring at her wide-eyed and in shock..because who does that. I've been out of high school for a long time, but I don't think things have changed THAT much.