Bergamot

Okay, when I saw the preview where Mary said she could not abandon the people in the AU world because they were being slaughtered, I thought she meant the humans of that world in general. I didn't realize she meant her little band of 25 people. So sure, bring them back with you into our world -- I would have suggested that myself if I knew it was just that group she couldn't leave. It really wasn't even that difficult to do. But was that little group supposed to be the entire human population left in the AU world? Because if not, Mary was still leaving people to be slaughtered -- just not ones she had met personally. Whatever. I never noticed it that much before, but in the last couple episodes I have been particularly unimpressed with the actress who plays Mary. There is no depth to her performance, no nuance or layers. When she smiled brightly and said, "You would really do that for them?", she might as well have been talking about including her friends in a dinner invitation. No wonder Mary comes across as so cold and shallow.

Yes, Mary seems to have conveniently forgot what they found out a couple episodes ago: that Michael and his army had all gone "south" to "a place where the walls between the world are thin" and were all going to cross over into our world. (And that when Jakob said to let him go, because as he said, why not let Michael be some other world's problem for a change, Mary shamed him for saying it: "How can you say that? That's seven billion innocent people!") Right? I mean, sure, Mary can fight, but she is not irreplaceable -- they have other fighters, and there is nothing she can do there that no one else can do. The rebels might need Jack, because he obviously can do things that no one else can do, but they don't really need Mary. But whatever. One consistent thing about Mary as a character has been that she is going to do whatever it is that she has decided she wants to do, even if it is diametrically opposed to the previous thing she has declared that she wants to do. She doesn't want to hunt, she wants to hunt, she wants to be back with her boys (the "heavenly" versions, that is), she wants to be anywhere other than with her boys, she wants to work with the BMOL, she wants to fight with the rebels. And the other consistent thing about her as a character is that for some reason we are supposed to see her as noble and self-sacrificing when she makes these choices, but I'm not buying it, no matter how many times the writers try to tell me it is so.

Thanks!

Ha! That picture made me laugh as well! Maybe I missed this, but do we know who or what they are all pointing their weapons --- or "snapping fingers" -- toward? At first glance I thought it was Lucifer, and that this was a scene that occurs right at the beginning of the episode, following his appearance at the end of the last one. But as you point out, Lucifer is there with them pointing his "weapon" as well, on their side of the confrontation. Does Michael appear in this next episode? I hope this as well -- so, so much! Not like the way Demon Dean was ended to clear the way for that stupid 200th episode. Don't we have like a dozen or so episodes next season before the 300th episode? This story at least needs to last until then. Or longer -- but at least until then, just in case they have some silly gimmicky episode idea for number 300 that they think requires a resolution.

This is a good comparison! It's like he is just waiting for their doom to come crashing down. The sad thing is that for a moment I thought he might be able to seek comfort from his mother, but it didn't happen. When he announces to Mary that he is going back for Sam's body, you can see from the expression in his eyes that he is not in any better shape than he was before they found her. I kind of wish that when Dean and the others were walking along after they leave the tunnels, right after Sam's death, that they had not inserted those little flashbacks showing that Dean is thinking about and reliving Sam's death. Did the writer and/or director think that we were going to be wondering what was inside Dean's head at that point, or asking why he had that look in his eyes, or questioning why he would not speak to Maggie, unless we had that helpful hint? They should have just trusted Jensen; he was perfectly capable of conveying what Dean was seeing in his mind's eye without the aid of flashbacks. Watched again to look for this, but did not see it. Not a single person "looked at Sam like he'd done some horrible thing". Everyone looked at Sam when he appeared with shock and amazement, and then as Lucifer appeared, everyone looked at Lucifer with shock and horror. The episode ended with everyone staring at Lucifer.

Ha, I feel you! But as kind of a side note, do you know who I liked in this episode? The civilians of the week, Floyd and Maggie! I liked them from the moment we met them, with Floyd yelling at Maggie to run away as he fought off a vampire, and Maggie ignoring him and instead jumping onto vampire's back to try to stop him. I liked Floyd trying to be brave as they re-entered the tunnel, saying "Second time is the charm!", and then almost immediately tripping and scaring Maggie to death. I liked the way that they kept trying to watch out for each other, and I liked that Floyd was trying to fight off vampires with a baseball bat and that Maggie was using what looked like a small pickax. (I mean, come on, couldn't the guys have lent them a gun or maybe a machete?) I liked that after Floyd is killed, we see that Maggie has picked up the baseball bat and is carrying it as her weapon. And I especially liked that she was kind enough to try to tell Dean she was sorry about his friend, but wise enough to realize that it was better to leave him be. On the whole I think she was pretty great. You know, when I think of some of the interesting stories that could be told about the people in this alternate world, it kind of makes me wish that Dean and Sam would get stuck there with them instead of going back to their own world. Maybe they could stay and Mary and Jack could go back!

I think you can always tell when this was one of the main items on the writers' checklist for an episode; often they try so hard that it comes across as contrived and artificial. One example from this episode was when they first come across one the vampires feeding in the tunnel; Dean is literally standing there over the vampire, when you hear Sam eagerly go "Wait, wait, wait, I got it!" and he comes scampering up from the rear of the group, rushing past everyone to get the kill. It was just silly. Yeah, I think it was obvious to everyone what they were going for. Of course the show can only wish it had a fraction of the suspense and excitement of that movie sequence. Also, I don't think anyone should have to re-watch it in order to figure out what actually happened, since there was no reason for this to be ambiguous or obscured from the viewer. For example, whether or not Cas saw Sam's body should not be a matter of opinion, but I still could go either way.

I couldn't tell what was going on either. It was too dark and everything was kind of a jumble on the screen. But then I thought that all the action sequences in the episode were clunky and poorly directed. I did not think that Gabriel's "drooping rift" or Lucifer being annoying by singing "Camptown Races" were clever or funny, sorry. It actually does strike me as kind of funny that the two supernaturally powered angels that came along on the expedition were instructed to help by lifting rocks, and then were apparently so busy doing this that they could not join in the battle against the vampires that were killing the humans a few feet away. Clunky! One thing I was wondering about -- if Rowena could cause Lucifer to fall unconscious, why didn't she just keep him unconscious the whole time they were draining his grace? Then they wouldn't have had to worry about him escaping (and we wouldn't have had to listen to him!) Also, how did they find him in the first place? But I guess they needed to use any time where they could have gone into stuff like this for more jokes about Gabriel being impotent. I think the episode should have shown Castiel's reunion with Jack. After all, he is Jack's foster father, so to speak, and if the Lucifer and Jack relationship is going to be highlighted, then Jack's prior connection to Cas is important.

As you say it was all very sensible, but I still wish he had just told Lucifer to go screw himself. That whole scenario struck me as kind of lame and anti-climactic. Partly I think because all Lucifer did was threaten to let the vampires eat him. The show likes to pretend that Lucifer is somehow this terrifying being whose very appearance freezes everyone's blood, and that is the scariest, most horrifying fate he can come up with? The strain that the show's version of Lucifer has put on things has never been more evident. The writers obviously believe that Lucifer is both absolutely hilarious and impressively terrifying, and he is neither. He is LAME. He is a pathetic boring loser of a character, and the show's devotion to him has really dragged it down.

Well, anything is possible, but I tend to disagree. And even if Dabb and all the producers and writers came out with an interview in which they stated that the story was set up to show this, and that Dean is obviously not, you know, actually heroic or anything like that -- I would say that they are wrong. I don't really care about the consensus -- it's just my opinion.

I guess this might not be something that everyone can understand, but Dean being in a dark place, maybe being ready, even more than ready, for the pain to end, does not mean that he cannot be "actually heroic". It does not negate the courage, strength, and compassion for others that he shows by continuing to do what he does, as he always has, to save people. Dean connects with people, he loves and protects his family and friends, he is capable of enjoying the little things in life in a way that not everyone can. Thinking wrongly that his life is not worth anything does not mean that it doesn't count when he risks it to save others.The fact that he cannot believe in his own worth, that he gets dragged down and overwhelmed by depression, is a tragedy, but it does not mean that he cannot be a hero. I think he is very heroic. But I have to admit that this is too close for me, so I will say no more.

Yes, that is the thought I had as well, especially with the connection to what happened in "Advanced Thanatology". At the end of this last episode, it didn't seem to me that Dean's focus, as he was sitting there drinking alone, was on Sam and how he must always protect him. His thoughts were on something else. I think Sam allowed himself to be diverted by Dean saying "I'm not going to apologize for protecting you", when in fact the really important and dangerous thing Dean said was "I don't care what happens to me." It just seems as if Dean was going to be triggered by losing Cas and his mother at the end of last season into going into some kind of "acute save Sammy mode" he would have done so back then -- not now, months after Cas has already been returned and they know their mother is alive and still rescuable -- but that didn't seem to happen. And the only specific danger Dean seems to be protecting Sam from in the last couple episodes is being around Dean when he is risking his life, sometimes quite recklessly. Not that he doesn't always have a good reason for risking his life, at least ostensibly. In "Advanced Thanatology", he was determined to free the ghosts in the house, especially the young boy Shawn, and help them to move on -- and in fact, this is the one thing he asked of Billie in return for the information she wanted; significantly, it was not to allow him to return to the land of the living, or to protect Sam. He went through the Rift because he wants to rescue Mary and Jack, and once through the Rift he was willing to risk himself to rescue AU Charlie. He is still trying to save and protect people, as he always has; it's just the way he is going about it that is raising questions.

Yes, I know what you mean. There is definitely a tie-in here back to "Advanced Thanatology" -- Dean telling Billie that he "doesn't matter", that he is just dragging Sam down; Billie accusing Dean of wanting to die, and Dean not denying it. When they got Cas back, this darkness inside of Dean seemed to recede, but maybe he was just repressing it. It would have helped if there had been more signs along the way that this death wish was still hidden inside of him -- it would have been nice if the writers had taken more care with the character arcs for once -- but I guess I can believe it. I could be wrong, probably I am, but I thought that perhaps Sam had the wrong end of the stick in their conversation at the end, when he questioned whether Dean's reckless, death-defying actions were caused by a need to protect Sam. "So that's what you think you're doing here?" he says to Dean, and is insulted by the thought that Dean is putting him at the "kid's table". But Dean seemed evasive to me in that scene, and I was wondering if maybe he was using what Sam said to him to cover the fact that it was not just about that. Maybe it's because I don't see any sudden special danger to Sam in particular that would trigger Dean, and also because I thought it was jarring the way he openly and flatly stated "I don't care what happens to me" -- but I thought this was about more than Sam for once. I thought maybe it is about Dean wanting to die. In which case it probably wasn't a good idea for Sam to respond with, "If we die, we'll do that together too". That is almost like throwing down a challenge to Dean, although Sam didn't intend it that way, and I found the expression on Dean's face after Sam left the room to be pretty interesting.

I was going to quote the parts that I especially agreed with, but it is all of this! First, I dislike the idea of wasting an episode like this when there are only 3 episodes left in the season. Especially a season that has been as scattered and at times as incoherent as this one has been. Second, "self-indulgent" is exactly the phrase that came to my mind as well. I thought the actor's ego was definitely on display here. It isn't his show, in my opinion, and I dislike him using it as a platform to show off. Third, I am annoyed by the thought that Gabriel was brought back because the actor is such a huge fan favorite. I get that he is beloved by the fans at the cons, but the show should never have become an appendage to the conventions, rather than the other way around. Gabriel should only have been brought back if there was a good story reason for it. (If not, maybe the actor could have just acted out the story from this episode as a skit at one of the cons, for his fans, instead of having it on the show.)

Ohhh, okay then! I feel dumb admitting this, but I didn't even realize that's where they were going with Sam. That's how far out in left field it is, in my opinion, that his big motivation for the season now appears to be revenge against Lucifer. I was puzzled during the episode by what seemed to me to be Sam's creepily intense interest in vicariously participating in Gabriel's revenge, and was wondering if it was maybe some kind of bonding exercise for the two characters, showing the new closeness of their relationship. Heh. I'm sure you are right though. So the writers have now decided that Sam's main focus is revenge, and Dean's is to make sure that this time he is the one who gets swallowed whole by the Apocalypse, not Sam. It is kind of hilarious to me that for neither of them, is their mother's fate being presented as their primary motivation.

The alternate universe version of Kevin Tran has only had a few brief scenes this season, and the character maybe was not that important in terms of the overall story, but I am sorry that he is gone. I thought that the scene where, acting as a "suicide bomber", he kills himself, was very emotionally powerful to watch. It made me wish that I had been able to see more of what led AU Kevin to that moment (and as a side note, made Michael seem a little bit scary to me for the first time, if he could do that to someone.) I was filled with pity and horror as I watched, and I wish they could have somehow saved AU Kevin. VERY well done, Osric Chau!

Maybe! But wasn't Dean already totally on board with working with Gabriel? That's why he was so upset to find out that Gabriel had bailed on them. My initial thought, based on the official synopsis of the episode, was that the quote is related to Gabriel's desire for revenge on the gods who sold him to Asmodeus. The synopsis says that Gabriel drags Dean and Sam into his plot for revenge. I could be wrong, but I had the feeling that everyone was supposed to be totally over any anger at Gabriel for his past acts, because he is such a cute, charming, and entertaining fellow. Personally, I may dislike him, but I got the impression that the writers were assuming that everyone in the audience loves him. (On this show you can almost always tell which characters the writers feel that way about.)

I still don't actually believe that Michael is coming back, although I am not sure why. But if the writers do bring him back, and make any effort at all, the last thing I think the character would be is uninteresting. Just look at the discussion here, and the different views. Why did he want the Apocalypse? Was he a "good son"? Why did he have such faith that things would work out as they should? Was he actually the greatest evil mastermind in the history of the universe (although it kind of boggles my mind that someone who believes that about Michael could find him "less complex" and "more dull" than Lucifer the whiny toddler.) The show's absolute determination to keep such a powerful, central character completely out of the story has only made the idea of him coming back more intriguing. Let's crack him out of the Cage and let him speak for himself! To me he is a mysterious figure whose character development could go in unexpected ways, and I think that could be a good thing for the show.

This is a side issue, I know, but I wanted to point out that is a misrepresentation to present those two "goals" as if they were two sides of a disagreement with Dean on one side and Sam on the other. When Dean was considering saying "yes", it was not because his goal was just to let Michael decide what was right to do, as opposed to Sam's goal of taking Lucifer off the board instead. At that point in time, there WAS no way to take Lucifer off the board. They (Dean as well as Sam) had tried and tried to find a way, and failed, and had nothing left to try. As in zilch, nada, nothing. The only apparent choice at that time was between letting Lucifer destroy the whole earth, or letting Michael stop him, and in the process of the battle between them destroy perhaps only half the earth. Everything changed completely when Gabriel informed them that the Cage to hold Lucifer was still in existence, and that the Horsemen's rings were the key to the Cage. It was then, and only then, that Sam decided that he was going to say yes to Lucifer in order to force him to jump back into the Cage. Interestingly, there was never any mention of taking Michael out somehow during the big fight or forcing him into the Cage as well. What to do about Michael was never discussed; as far as I remember, the implication was that if Lucifer went back in the Cage, the problem was solved. If I recall, Sam had his eyes closed and was standing at the edge of the big hole, starting to fall back into it -- it was only because Michael lunged forward and grabbed at him, allowing Sam to grab him back and pull him along, that Michael went in as well. So I guess if you believe that all Michael really wanted to do was destroy the world, it was fortuitous he was so absolutely determined to fight Lucifer to the death -- to be, in his view, a good son -- that he tried to prevent Lucifer from falling in the hole and went in himself. Otherwise our world have been as much at the mercy of Michael as the one in the alternate universe. The AU Michael is just a thug, from what we've seen of him. The Michael of our world, the one we briefly saw in "The Song Remains the Same", was more interesting to me. Maybe he would have turned out to be exactly like AU Michael, or maybe not. No way to tell as far as I can see. Dean and Sam were never born in the AU, and so obviously things turned out differently, but it's not the only thing that was different. For example, the AU Mary made totally different choices (which is why there was no Dean and Sam in the first place), and led a totally different life. So AU Mary was not identical to our Mary -- she was a different person. Who knows how many others in the AU made different choices and went down different paths, changing other things in turn, whether from a Butterfly Effect or some other reason? The idea of alternate realities is an interesting one, although I don't have confidence that the show will ever dig very deeply into the implications. He certainly is the angel I have the least interest in continuing to have on the show. Far from somehow being more complex and less dull as a character, I find him to be extremely tedious and more tiresome to watch the longer he is around.

Yes. And I think it was clear in each case that Dean would not say what he did to them because of politeness or sentimentality or to smooth things over, or even just to be kind, but only if he really believed it. Which is why it meant something. I think we also saw it a little bit with Ketch, when Ketch said that he would help save Charlie, even though earlier he had said that it was probably impossible and stupid. Dean looks surprised, and then says with a grin, "Impossible and stupid, huh? You say that like it's a bad thing!", and even gives him a friendly shoulder punch. I think that maybe there is a little flash of gratitude from Ketch at Dean's response.

I rewatched the episode, and I agree with your comment about the ending scene -- it did work pretty well, with them all sitting on the floor of the hotel room, nursing their wounds and talking quietly to each other. I liked that they were not full of bravado or even optimism, but there still was, as you say, at least some hopefulness. (But I still don't like Rowena's "Sam, what have I done?" line. Whatever that was supposed to convey, it didn't work for me. Rowena has always known exactly what she has done and why; she didn't go in for self-deception.) One moment I did like was when Sam said that Rowena not killing him was progress, and Dean inserts a side comment that in his view it was more like a miracle. Rowena gives him a dirty look and Dean shoots it right back at her without any sign of an apology, his gaze warning her that he won't forget things and doesn't trust her and has his eye on her. Just a quick exchange of glances, but it made clear that they both understand each other. However, the one thing in that scene which totally did not work for me was the way they carefully presented to Rowena the news that Lucifer was back, as if it were the most horrifying news imaginable. Sorry, but if the show wanted us to see Lucifer as someone whose very name freezes anyone's heart with terror, then they have failed utterly. That whiny, pathetic baby who sits around feeling sorry for himself, quite literally chanting "me, Me, ME!"? It's way too late now for them to try to make him out to be some kind of terrifying big bad. The last time I can remember thinking that the show had a really scary big bad was with Alastair. Sure, Lucifer can make people explode with a snap of his fingers, but so what? That is nothing compared to how horrifying it was to watch Alastair's psychological torture of Dean, as he explained to him, with great satisfaction and pleasure, how he had carved him into a new creature. Because of the scene where the captured Alastair starts to sing -- "Heaven, I'm in heaven" -- when Dean enters the room to torture him, the song "Cheek to Cheek" still gives me a little chill whenever I hear it now. Brrr!

Yes, that is true. But still, I found Rowena being all weepy and hysterical about Crowley (of all people!) to be unconvincing and over-the-top. Maybe it would have been easier to swallow if she had been trying to bring back her beloved Oskar instead of Crowley. Also, I often found her scenes in this one, both dialogue and acting, to be too exaggerated and overdramatic, if not hokey. Like in one of her scenes when when she tearfully and oh-so-melodramatically declaims, "Sam, what have I DONE?!" (And also, what exactly was she referring to at that point anyway? Because that sounded so odd to me.) I thought some of the writing for Sam when he was with Rowena was verging on overdramatic as well. Like his "Were you just playing me the whole time??" Gasp! He might as well have demanded like a jilted lover, "Were you just USING me?!" Good grief, Sam, it's Rowena -- of course she was. I didn't believe that Rowena would suddenly grow a conscience any more than I thought Ketch would. But at least I understood what Ketch was trying to do. Did Rowena think that by bringing Crowley back from the dead she was "giving him a chance"? A chance to do what? Unless he was brought back as a child, she could not undo what she had done to him. Unless maybe she thought she could give him a chance to redeem himself, I guess? To tell the truth, I was relieved to hear Dean cut through all the drama and the tears and bluntly tell her in regard to Crowley, "He made his choices, just like we all do". Because I was thinking the same thing.

Yeah, this didn't work for me either. I notice that she didn't bring up her grandson Gavin when she talks about what she has done wrong in the past, and what she wouldn't do now for her family. I actually thought that what she did to him was one of the most malicious and spiteful acts committed by someone on the show. Also, Rowena is more fun as a character when she is selfish and scheming.

I have to say, I kind of wish the show had forgotten about bringing back Lucifer and instead brought back Naomi sooner. She is much more impressive as a villain. I loved it when Castiel is listing all the horrible things she had done in the past, and with a total lack of remorse, she blandly replies, "Yes, those were simpler times." Ha! I don't understand why Cas believed anything she said though. Just because the lights kept dimming in the throne room? (By the way, they should have come up with a more imaginative way to show that Heaven is supposedly shutting down. It is so ridiculously literal to claim that the angels are the "batteries" of Heaven and then actually show the lights going out. Come on.) Anyway, very convenient that Naomi has shut down access to Heaven. Don't trust her, Cas!

Hey, me too! :-) I understand what he meant. Of course Dean knows perfectly well that this isn't the same Charlie, and to me, assuming that what he says to her means that he didn't, seems an overly literal reading of his words. She is not his Charlie, but she is still Charlie, brave and loyal and stubborn and quirky. (Thankfully not as overly cutesy-quirky as our world's Charlie -- with apologies to Dean, because I never liked Charlie the way that he did!) So while she is not his Charlie, she is still someone's Charlie, and thus to him someone precious and important to protect. That is one thing I liked about Charlie showing up in the episode. I doubt Dean would have spoken about Charlie to anyone since she died; it just would have been too painful, too difficult, for him for him to talk about her with, say, Sam or Cas. But maybe because he needed to convince Ketch of the importance of saving AU Charlie, he finally talked to someone about how he loved Charlie and how she was his little sister and how he felt he failed her. And I have to think that talking about her must have helped him a little. As did getting there in time to save AU Charlie from execution by the angels, after having been too late to save his Charlie. That's why he hated to leave her behind, because the thought of seeing any Charlie dying would be like re-living that loss. And I think the fact that she did not say to him, "I'm not your Charlie", shows that she also understood what he meant.