Wayward Son

Taking to season 7 all episodes thread since my answers involve spoilers.

Thanks for this. I just made my vote.

I’d say the Winchester’s fighting style is closer to Faith’s (minus the super strength). The three of them are brawlers / street fighters, while Buffy spent years training and developed more of an martial arts based fighting style.

Taking this to the Supernatural Smackdown thread.

Sorry to get back to this, but I just finished the episode. While I agree with you that the “I want to make my time count” remark was a dig I don’t think the “I had something I never had” was. Sam clarified that he is referring to a normal life. While I’d argue this is bad canon (he had that at Stanford) I honestly don’t think Dean would dispute the fact their childhood was far from normal.

I think there’s some confusion. Those are two different discussion I believe. Discussion one began when I stated IMO Dean was pretty much a bully during the season 8 Episode Heartache when he kept belittling Sam and trying to keep him feel like shit for wanting to leave the world of hunting one day. Discussion two is a separate one about Bobby’s boohoo princess speech to Dean in season 4. I’ve stated my opinion that Dean’s beef with Sam re the actual fight was legimate. His decision to bring it back to Sam going to Stanford and using that as proof they weren’t brothers was over the top, dramatic and princess like IMO.

I don’t think he is throughout the entire show. I think seasons 1-7 did a good job of keeping his positive and negative traits balanced. But throughout seasons 8-9 I would say yes he was pretty horrible, which is when I went off the character. I never actually said I agreed with that sentiment. I said I agreed that Dean was acting overly whiny when he moved the subject from the fight with Sam to Sam going to Stanford. The fight was something Dean was entitled to feel hurt and betrayed by. Sam going to Stanford was not and it certainly wasn’t something that meant “we were never really brothers”.

Sam didn’t say “I want to leave right now” he said he wanted Dean to be open to the possibility it might come to that one day. A pretty reasonable request IMO and preparing Dean for the possibility is much more considerate than one day out of the blue proclaiming “ok, so I’m done! See ya around” and leaving. It was Dean who persisted on making little digs and jibes and trying to tell Sam he’d be the worst person in the world for leaving. One dig back, and I’ll concede that was indeed a dig back from Sam, doesn’t negate a whole episodes worth of them from Dean IMO. And I’m pointing out perhaps Dean getting off topic and over the top is what made Bobby snap. It was only after that ridiculous statement that Sam going to college meant they were probably never really brothers that Bobby snapped at him.

Watching Heartache and it’s a strong example of why I take issue with Dean’s s8 characterisation. If you want to spend the rest of your days on the road hunting that’s swell Dean. That’s completely your choice. But if Sam doesn’t then he doesn’t have to. He’s not obliged to spend the rest of his life chasing after you like a little lap dog. Get over yourself and stop being such a bully! And in this episode most of Dean’s words aren’t about his “abandonment” they’re about trying to emotionally manipulate Sam into promising to eternally hunt against his will. That was a “eff you Dean” moment for Dean because he didn’t keep to the subject. He used it as an excuse to whine yet again about Sam’s decision to go to Stanford. Siblings go to university all the time so “boo boo princess” is entirely appropriate.

I’m just nosying on twitter and apparently anyone who does not agree with Jared’s tweet are Destiel fans who hate him anyway. This is coming from the hardcore Jared and J2 stans of course.

Sam and Dean have never actually been in contact with the Demon tablet. The tablet from last season was the Levithian tablet. Kevin first heard of this tablet after Crowley kidnapped him and ordered him to translate it for him. Kevin then goes on the run with it and hides it at a bus station by the time the brothers find it. When they go to the station it has already been kidnapped by Pultus. Then at the auction there was something that prevented them from reading it. So there’s been no opportunity for photo taking :) My personal favourite scenes were - The Dean and Cas purgatory scene. Even if Benny was there and trying to stir up crap. - Mama Tran and Kevin getting the tattoo and her offering her soul for his. She’s such a good mum. - Kevin calling Dean out on trying to kill his mum and cutting off an unwanted speech. When you’re happy to let someone kill a possessed Sam then you can talk about “sometimes in this life” until then shut up Dean. At least Kevin had the sense to shut him down unlike

Ah OK. I thought you were referring to the nurse so we had our wires crossed. My apologies. I dont want to get into a big discussion about the other part of your post. I’m not a big fan of bringing real life into things as it feels like being backed into a corner where I can’t respond for fear of personally insulting other posters. However, all Ill say is that one difference between killing a terrorist like you mention and killing a ‘meat suit’ is the choice involved. For the most part, Terrorists choose to join a terrorist organisation. Those possessed by the demons had no choice and are more like innocent bystanders Anyway, like I said I’m gonna stop this discussion here for fear of causing upset to other users.

My point though it wasn’t it’s about gaining relief from his withdrawal pains, he had Ruby for that. The purpose of killing the nurse possessed demon was to gain enough blood to have the strength needed to kill Lilith. Again, is killing a demon and it’s meat suit to take out the strongest demon around any less justified than killing a demon to protect their location? Personally, I don’t find either better than the two.

But Sam and Dean don’t even bother to try and check if the “meatsuit” is still alive anymore. They go straight for the kill and I don’t think it is about mercy killing. They’ve made it clear on several occasions it is purely for tactics such as ensuring Crowley (or whoever is in charge of hell at that particular point) doesn’t know their own location. Is killing someone to protect their own asses any better than killing someone for the strength needed to take down the strongest demon in existence? I feel the need to point out I consider both to be pretty terrible, and I’m often sad about how disposable human life has become on this show.

Yeah, I didn’t see the tweet, but from what I gathered I personally think he goes too far when he names the individual employee. It’s one thing saying “the customer service at (company sucks)” and another to target an individual “(name name of company is really bad at her job”. Plus, for all we know, he/she might just be following company policy and can’t afford to be fired by circumventing the rules for him.

I think the way the show depicted it was pretty horrific, but at the end of the day both Sam /and/ Dean kill innocent ‘meatsuits’ of demons all the time! Hell, they later use reverse exorcisms to force a demon into a body just so they can kill it (and by extension the host).

So I just rewatched the Cabin scene and I still don’t think that Sam was in anyway out of line here. As far as I interpreted things went like - A angsty Dean jumps Sam and forces a Levithian, demon and shifter test on Sam. This insistence is enough to convince Sam it’s really Dean, but Dean does the tests on himself anyway. Maybe it could be argued Sam was too easily convinced, but I think this could be explained as his guard is down due to the year away from hunting. - The two sure a reunion hug during which Sam is smiling. - Sam begins to question what happened to Dean. “You were in purgatory for the whole year?” He questions with clear surprise when Dean informs him of what happened. - He asks how he’d get out? A reasonable question in my opinion considering their history. -Dean gives a super vague answer and Sam lets the subject drop. This could be interpreted as either a further sign his guard is down, or he simply recognises its a sensitive topic for Dean. - He proceeds to ask about Cas (again a reasonable thing to query about imo) and offers condolences when Dean gives the impression Cas is dead. - Dean moves the subject on to the issue of Sam not taking his calls. Sam’s demeanour becomes more hesitant and he finally admits to the fact “I don’t hunt anymore”. IMO this reluctance makes sense. Sam isn’t an idiot. He knows Dean is not going to like that. - Dean exclaims his surprise with a touch of anger in his voice IMO. He explains that he thought Dean was dead, that Cas was dead, his allies were gone. - Dean goes on the attack and proclaims “so you just turned tale on the whole family business?” IMO Sam doesn’t react to this angrily. He tries to explain that he’d lost (from his perspective) his whole family. - Dean grows angry then standing and proclaiming he wasn’t dead and was doing what Sam should have been doing i.e. killing monsters. - Sam grows more defensive at this point and yet again has to explain that he had no one, that’s he lost everyone, he had no plan and just fixed the impala and ran. - Dean asks did Sam look for him in spite of the fact Sam repeatedly told him he thought he was dead. Dean’s anger and bitter that Sam didn’t look for him due to his “deep and abiding” love. Dean then storms off in a huff. - An exasperated Sam sighs and sarcastically states “welcome back”. So yeah, I still don’t see it as Sam being all “ew the pleb is back” and still maintain his annoyance only grew after Dean went on the attack. Now perhaps it could be argued that Sam should have shown more patience with Dean, but his reaction to the return certainly wasn’t “oh it’s you”.

I don’t think the show has specified an actual age since he is only 1 day old in canon. The actor who portrays him is 27 though so I would imagine he is meant to be somewhere in the early to mid twenties :)

Well said! And I think it is something fans all too often forget when discussing episodes such as Swan Song! Just because they have a particular preference re storyline types doesn’t mean that the writers share those same preferences nor does this difference of opinion mean the writers hate said character.

As a Cas fan that’s my biggest complaint! IMO the writers want to have it both ways. They want to treat him like a main character with his own plots and allies, but they want to do it in less than half the screen time a main character gets. This results in uneven and botched storytelling, which often makes the character look the worst possible because we aren’t allowed to truly see his mindset. Id actually rather smaller well done storylines than large poorly done ones but that’s just me.

I’m sorry if I misunderstood your post, but I think there’s a minor but important distinction us fans should make. IMO I don’t think Sam thought Dean was weak because he broke under torture in hell. What I mean is I don’t think his mindset was “I can’t believe that weakling couldn’t even withstand a bit of torture what a loser”. I think he meant every word about Dean lasting longer than anyone could have. However, I think he thought the guilt that came as a result of breaking made Dean weaker than normal. It made him more hesitant and less confident in himself and his abilities. IMO there were two layers to Sam’s motivation. On a deeper level I think he genuinely wanted to help Dean and relieve him of a burden he couldn’t cope with while he was so psychologically damaged. In addition to this, as he consumed more and more demon blood this desire became twisted and it became just as much about proving he was the stronger brother. * Personally, I see the demon blood as similar to the Mark of Cain. Neither takes over its victim completely in the way something like possession does. However, it influences its victims and twists their mindset and previously pure motivations into something darker. Oh yes, I agree! I didn’t mention those occasions because I was replying to @ILoveReading who had already mentioned the brothers should have had time apart during season 8 and late season 9 :)

I agree with this! I also think both brothers could have done with more time apart at the beginning of season 5. Nothing too drastic but 5-6 episodes rather than the two we got. IMO, again I’m trying to put aside my preferences, Dean could have done with more time processing Sam’s actions and reaching a point where he was ready to begin building bridges / forgiving Sam. IMO he was far from ready when they reunited. Likewise, I think Sam needed more time apart from it all! Time to reflect and consider what led to his downfall in the first place, time to recover before he is ready to jump back into things.

Putting aside my general preferences and the bitch vs jerk of it, I actually think both brothers have suffered at one point or another from the shows refusal to allow them proper time apart to process and deal with things.

I can accept this! Haha

One thing that annoys me about Sam not looking for Dean is the fact it could easily be tied into the history of the show. He could have referenced how he behaved during and after Dean’s time in the pit. He could have expressed fear of becoming that guy again, of slipping back into darkness. He was also afraid of the consequences knowing the cost of previous resurrection. That at least would have made Sam’s motivations clear and understandable IMO. They still could have then had Dean hurt by Sam’s actions. Sadly, that would be too balanced for Carver whose mission was to highlight just how right the brothers toxic co-dependency is. That is why Sam moving away from it is presented in the worst light possible, as opposed to a more nuanced one, why his objections to Dean’s actions in s9 are wiped away by the “I lied” and of course to complete the three season arc of Carver Sam is back on the co-dependency train and saves Dean at all costs.