Wayward Son

The whole demon hierarchy and history is a mess by this point. My best guest is it went as follows: Lilith was the very first demon created as a massive "feck you to God". (This has been explicitly stated in canon) Then Alastair was created. Maybe he was to confirm that the process with Lilith could be repeated. (I'm guessing this by the fact that he too is meant to be extremely old and the only other white eyed demon we've seen. Of course we don't know for sure because show seems to have forgotten him.) After that the yellow eyed Demons / Princes of Hell. They were extremely powerful demons who were intended to act as generals in the war against heaven. The regular demons soon followed. One of them (Cain) was chosen to bear the mark of Cain and train a selection of demons he had chosen to upgrade as key warriors under the generals (knights of hell).

If they are going for the cheap Character-Is-In-Peril ploy then Cas is definitely the way to go. Those type of ploys are never going to work with Sam and Dean. They're the leads and the show would collapse without them so they're 100% safe. On the other hand, and I even say this as a fan of his, Cas is much more expendable. He can be killed off. So that means a character-is-in-peril plot and certain other plots are always going to work better with Castiel (or any other side character) because the writers can actually create suspense.

I hope to write a proper review later tonight or tomorrow, but I hated the brothers reaction to Castiel's declaration of love for them as a family. I didnt even expect them to say it back, but they could have said "we care for you" or something. Anything would have beat them just staring gormlessly at him.

Yeah I'd agree with you on that, but since Cas' dilemma was the focus of the promo it was the most likely thing to make people watch live. I would say this weeks episode was more of an ensemble than truly focused on one particular person. Actually to be honest, now that I think about, I wouldn't even consider Lily Saunders Has No Regrets as overly Cas centred. As you'd expect from the title the episode was more focused on the life story of Lily. Cas just happened to be briefly in it. But to get back on topic, I am glad the ratings went up whatever the reason.

I'm glad for the show :) I guess lots of fans wanted to find out Cas' fate haha

Show went up to a 0.7 this week! I haven't seen the viewer numbers yet. I'll update this post when I do :)

My unpopular opinion for today is that I have actually enjoyed both of Davy Perez's scripts so far :). Actually I've enjoyed all the new writers this season and feel the show is beginning to regain a sense of continuity it has lacked since the Carver era began.

Yeah, I felt the same way as you when we lost Rufus :( . He had a wit about him that never failed to make me laugh. The fact he was played by a talented actor also helped. I had some surprises myself from drawing up the list. I knew he had been in more episodes since his promotion to Series Regular, but I still thought Bobby had been in more episodes. Lilith was also in a lot less episodes than I expected. Aw thank you @Mick Lady for the warm welcome :)

I don't think this has been posted yet! My apologies if it has..

Since the editor on my phone is being a pain @Binns @catrox14 In regards to whether the Lance powered up Castiel or not in my opinion the answer would be no. According to the episode, the power of the Lance lay in the runic work. Once that was broken the Lance (and its effects) has been broken. I think of it the same as how a demons power of telekinesis is broken when they die. There is a tie between the Lance and its effect that means if you stop the source you stop it all. There was nothing to suggest that power would then transfer to the people affected by it. Of course that is only based on the information in this episode. They might change that during Cas' next appearance. Yeah, the way I saw it we had a moment where Dean was shown to be pretty stricken looking. However, he quickly forced himself to put aside his feelings in order to let Cas know they'd find a way to help him.

Quick question; Since he's the only other white eyed demon where do we think Alastair comes into play? Personally I think it should be Lilith > Alastair > The Princes of Hell > The Knights > Normal Demons?

I always assumed that when they made that rule in Season 5 the five beings Kripke initially had in mind were God and the four Archangels (Michael, Lucifer, Raphael and Gabriel). However, since then they've introduced equally (if not stronger) powerful beings such as the Darkness and the Levithian. So who knows how they'll try to retcon that rule to fit the present day.

I haven't seen the episode yet, so I really shouldn't comment, but from what I've gathered the Lance of Michael is the weapon they got in this episode. Dean is the Michael Sword, at least if you go by what Zachariah said in Sympathy for the Devil :)

Hi I double checked and Rufus was indeed in six episodes. They were 3.15 Time Is on My Side 5.02 Good God, Y'All 6.04 Weekend at Bobby's 6.16 ...And Then There Were None 7.10 Death's Door 11.16 Safe House You were correct about Garth being in four, rather than three, and I edited the list to reflect that :)

Ah, I think I understand you now. As far as I am aware the only way to display posts is chronologically. However, I am new here also so I could be wrong! Hopefully someone will be able to give you a definite answer. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful :( . Edit: Or as @catrox14 says, while not perfect, the best workaround may just be to tag the person you're responding to. Ooh that would definitely be interesting! And yes I agree, if they are bringing in Michael the arc should remain with Dean and no else. Fingers crossed <3 I personally would rather they kill off Cas / fire Misha than see him continue on long term as an enemy to the boys. Honestly, I am not looking for any super special storylines for Cas this season. If they just kept him around in the background as himself I would be content. This probably belongs in the "unpopular opinions/bitterness" thread, but honestly, if the writers truly can not last a season without having to resort to making Cas crazy/possessed/anatagonistic then they should just write him out and be done with it. It's crueller to his fans to keep him around just to keep messing them around in such a manner.

I'm afraid I don't quite get what you mean @Geordiegirl1967 ? Do you mean how do we tag another user or? A general question for everyone. As the episode approaches what are your hopes for it? What are you most looking forward to? Is there anything you dread? In my case I am quite intrigued to find out how they handle the same scenes from different perspectives angle. Will it be individuals i.e. Sams perspective, Deans perspective etc, or will it be split into Dean & Sam's perspective vs Castiel, Wally and Mary's? I am hoping we may also learn something new about their current perspective in the process. On the other hand, as I may have mentioned before, I am genuinely worried that they'll kill off Castiel in his episode and the later appearances spoiled were false leaks to throw fans off. I hope to be wrong, but they definitely seem to be setting things up for him to go at some point this season.

I got bored and I was in a fact gathering mood so I present to you guys a list of recurring characters on Supernatural and how many episodes they've featured in. This is up to date as of the episode Defending Dean. I wasn't sure where to post this so apologies if this is the wrong place. 200 + Episodes Dean Winchester = 252 Episodes Sam Winchester = 252 Episodes 50 + Episodes Castiel = 94 Episodes Crowley = 64 Episodes Bobby Singer = 59 Episodes 20 + Episodes Lucifer = 24 Episodes (including as a part of Sam and Castiel's hallucinations) Rowena = 23 Episodes 10 + Episodes Ruby = 16 episodes Metatron = 15 Episodes Mary Winchester = 14 Episodes Amara / The Darkness = 12 Episodes Gadreel = 12 Episodes Meg (Demon) = 12 Episodes Azazel = 11 Episodes Chuck / God = 11 Episodes Jody Mills = 11 Episodes Lisa Braeden = 11 Episodes 10 or Less Episodes Abbadon = 9 Episodes Dick Roman = 9 Episodes (including his possession of Castiel) Ellen Harvelle = 9 Episodes Amelia Richardson = 8 Episodes Benny = 8 Episodes Charlie = 8 Episodes Samuel Campbell = 8 Episodes Ben Braeden = 7 Jo Harvelle = 7 Episodes Naomi = 7 Episodes Zachariah = 7 Episodes Anna = 6 Episodes Balthazar = 6 Episodes Bela Talbot= 6 Episodes Billie = 6 Episodes Edgar = 6 Episodes Meg (Human) = 6 (Including Possession) Rufus Turner = 6 Episodes Alastair = 5 Episodes Arthur Ketch = 5 Episodes Ash = 5 Episodes Chet = 5 Episodes Claire Novak = 5 Episodes Death = 5 Episodes Ed Zeddmore Jessica Moore = 5 Episodes Henry Spangler = 5 Episodes Lilith = 5 Episodes Linda Tran = 5 Episodes Raphael = 5 Episodes Susan = 5 Episodes Uriel = 5 Episodes Alpha Vampire = 4 Episodes Annie/Dr. Gaines = 4 Episodes Christian Campbell = 4 Episodes Cole Trenton = 4 Episodes Eve = 4 Episodes Garth Fitzgerald = 4 Episodes Gwen Campbell = 4 Episodes Gordon Walker = 4 Episodes Michael = 4 Episodes Pamela Barnes = 4 Episodes Tessa = 4 Episodes Victor Henrickson = 4 Episodes Becky Rosen = 3 Episodes Donna Hanscum = 3 Episodes Eleanor Visyak = 3 Episodes Frank Deveraux = 3 Episodes Henry Winchester = 3 Episodes Karen Singer = 3 Episodes Ingrid = 3 Episodes Jervis = 3 Episodes Lady Toni Bevell = 3 Episodes Samandriel = 3 Episodes Tommy = 3 Episodes Aaron Bass = 2 Episodes Adina = 2 Episodes Alpha Shapeshifter = 2 Episodes Amelia Novak = 2 Episodes Andy Gallagher = 2 Episodes Annie Davies = 2 Episodes Ava Davies = 2 Episodes Bartholomew = 2 Episodes Bridgetta = 2 Episodes Calvin Reidy = 2 Episodes Channing Ngo = 2 Episodes Daniel Elkins = 2 Episodes Donatello Redfield = 2 Episodes Efram = 2 Episodes Eldon Frankenstein = 2 Episodes Gavin MacLeod = 2 Episodes Gerald = 2 Episodes Guthrie = 2 Episodes Jake Talley = 2 Episodes Jenna Nickerson = 2 Episodes Jimmy Novak = 2 Episodes Jonah = 2 Episodes Kate = 2 Episodes Kelly Kline = 2 Episodes Krissy Chambers = 2 Episodes Kubrick = 2 Episodes Lenore = 2 Episodes Louise = 2 Episodes Mark Campbell = 2 Episodes Martin Creaser = 2 Episodes Mick Davies = 2 Episodes Monroe Frankenstein = 2 Episodes Morrison = 2 Episodes Oskar = 2 Episodes Pestilence = 2 Episodes Rachel = 2 Episodes Ronald Reznick = 2 Episodes Rick Sanchez = 2 Episodes Sarah Blake = 2 Episodes Simmons = 2 Episodes Tom = 2 Episodes Tommy Collins = 2 Episodes

Agreed! Plus as I mentioned yesterday, the only female attention Cas has had prior to this came from Daphne and April. However, the latter was in fact a reaper who was plotting to kill him. That means this weeks episode brings the number of females genuinely interested in Cas, over the course of nine years, up to a grand total of two. So, I really don't get how someone taking an interest in Cas over Dean for the first time ever is a sign that the writers think Jensen/Dean is an ugly troll or whatever. Nor do I understand how one can be sick of something that has only happened the once, but to each their own. Just my opinion on the matter.

I was thinking about Mary last night, and I wonder if a part of the problem is that they are trying to write her relationship with the brothers in a similar context to the other characters they are close to. In my opinion Supernatural has never been good for showing the brothers friendship with other people, be it Castiel, Jodi, or Donna, outside of the world of hunting. What I mean is we never really get scenes where the brothers hang out with someone just because they care for them and want to catch up. We are rarely (if ever) shown them having a movie night with a friend, or visiting a town purely because they haven't seen someone in a while and want to check in. Instead their relationships are entirely centred around the world of hunting, and they're reunited because either (insert name of ally/friend here) needs their help with a case, or the brothers need back up for some major mytharc related battle. I don't really know why this is. Maybe the show thinks we would find such scenes boring, or maybe it's just to highlight that Sam and Dean only truly have each other. But either way that's just the way the writers have chosen to handle things over the years. Now, they appear to be taking a similar approach to Mary. They're trying to highlight that they care for one another, but they also want to create some distance between her and the brothers, so like the others they only care to examine their relationship with her within the context of hunts. However, because she is their mother and they've such a rich family history the approach isn't practical and it is only serving to make Mary come off as cold and unfeeling. ( I just want to clarify that I do believe that Sam and Dean genuinely care for Cas, Jodi etc. I just think the show runners have no interest in showing the day to day non hunting aspect of those bonds))

That makes sense. Thanks for explaining your point of view to me :) I agree that Dean enthusiasm to "teach him" was a little too much. I just took it as Perez making him overly enthusiastic. Hopefully once we've seen the scenes preceding this we may have a better understanding of why Dean behaved this way :)

Also, I don't get why some people seem to begrudge Cas earning the waitresses attention as opposed to Dean. I mean firstly people have different tastes and so it's entirely plausible that someone may prefer him to Dean. Secondly, he has been on the show for nine seasons now, and as far as I can recall the only female attention he has received has come from Daphne and April. However, since the latter was actually a reaper trying to murder him I'd hardly say it counts as a win. I'm not trying to belittle anyone else opinion. We all view these things differently. I just don't see why Cas receiving female attention for the first time in three years is super offence and somehow a slight against Dean.

Oh God A Rock and A Hard Place (at least I assume that's what you're referring to) . I had managed to suppress my memories of that episode. I would say I partially agree with @catrox14 on this. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with the initial flirting. It was a bit of teasing banter and honestly Dean strikes me as the type of guy who flirts instinctively. However, the whole speech on the perks of hooking up with waitresses, especially after Mary made it clear she was uncomfortable, seemed a bit much to me. Hey, I don't want to seem dismissive of your perspective, but I'm just curious where you saw competitiveness in this scene. The reason I ask is that my reading of the scene was as follows; Dean initially hits on the waitress unopposed. Sam is too worried about gaining access to the wifi, Cas is sitting quietly as he is not the type to randomly flirt with someone out of the blue, and Wally is likewise silent. Mandy rebuffs his advances and proceeds to ask for their orders. It is only when Wally mistakenly refers to cheese as a carbohydrate that Castiel finally speaks up to correct him. Mandy then takes a clear shine to Cas as shown by her sudden change in demeanour and calling him handsome. Dean (and Sam) are initially surprised by this (presumably because Cas being hit on is a rare event), but then Dean gracefully accepts her preference and proceeds to offer to help Cas out. I would have to agree with @RulerofallIsurvey. SAMs objection seemed to be towards the idea that "smelling like food" was an advantage and some sort of turn on. He didn't show any disdain towards the idea of hooking up with waitresses in general.

That is also my interpretation Casseioepia :)

Yep I pretty much see it the same way. Similar enough to what you said I would rank the cast hiearchy as follows. The Stars ~ Jensen and Jared are the only two who fit in this category and I can't imagine that ever changing. It is these two the show relies upon and if either chooses to leave then that is Supernatural over for good. The Series Regulars ~ At the moment Misha and Mark are the only two who belong in this category. In the past Katie Cassidy and Lauren Cohan were also billed as such. I'd argue that Jim Beaver / Bobby belonged to this category at one point even if he was never billed as such. This ranking is for long term side characters who are allowed a more vast character development than the average recurring character. They are also occasionally given storylines of their own that are relatively independent of the brothers. However, they are ultimately expandable and the show can survive without them. Recurring Characters ~ These are characters such as Rowena, Kevin, Azazel, Lilith who have appeared on the show more than once throughout the year. However, they're often background characters and purely there to aid the brothers and/or series regulars storyline. Guest ~ Characters who have only appeared on the show once!

As @RulerofallIsurvey highlights, after my examination of Sam's motives I did state that I feel the writers let the character of Sam (and the audience) down by never providing him with an opportunity to explain himself. In my opinion, a large portion of the brotherly conflict in season eight was a failure for them to truly communicate with one another. When Dean first returned from purgatory I think Sam was portrayed as having a range of emotions. There was the expected happiness "You're frigging alive", but it was somewhat muted by the accompanying feeling of confusion and guilt for letting Dean down he speaks of in Sacrifice. I can understand where Dean was coming from. He was hurt by what he perceived as Sam's failure to look for him and lashed out. However, Dean didn't do himself any favours. Instead of asking Sam why, he did what he did, he instantly went on the offence and began to berate him for the choices he made. Sam responded to this hostility by getting defensive and displaying hostility of his own. As far as I am concerned both brothers behaved wrongly influenced by the strong emotions they felt. This may have been acceptable had the writers chosen to conclude the arc with a discussion between the brothers where they both got to openly discuss where they were coming from. I think if Sam had been allowed to explain to Dean he thought he was dead, that it broke him and he just didn't know what to do and ran away from his problems (as I illustrated in my earlier post), then Dean would have understood and even felt sympathy for Sam's plight. He knows what it is like to feel like you've lost your brother and can't do anything to help. Likewise, Sam would have understood that the reason Dean behaved so negatively towards him in season eight was due to the fact Dean was lashing out as a result of his hurt at being 'abandoned'. A scene like that could have been a powerful and moving one where both brothers got to say their piece before moving on. However, what do we get instead? We get a scene where Sam apologies for a list of sins Dean had pointed out earlier in the episode. Sam is shown to be the bad guy in this and he is still made to feel guilty for actions he took years before hand. Actions that he had (supposedly) earned Dean's forgiveness for. That is why I have always said the narrative of seasons eight (and nine which ends on a similar note with the "I lied" scene) were firmly on Dean's side, while leaving the character of Sam to receive a firm backlash from the fans. In my opinion Sam and Dean have both been the main characters of Supernatural since the very beginning. As @SueB highlights it has always been presented that way in press releases, DVDs etc. I do think initially the two were intended to serve different narrative purposes. Sam was to be the central figure of the mythology. In seasons one and two he was the psychic kid surrounding by the mystery of what exactly did the Yellow Eyed Demon want for him? In season four he is the one drinking the demon blood and at the largest risk of causing the apocalypse through his actions. Dean on the other hand was to be the humanity of the show. It was often through his lens that we got to see things occur. In my opinion, this is why it took ten seasons before Dean was shown to be less than a regular human for longer than an episode. I think a part of the blame for Sam's attitude towards Benny lies with Dean. In the beginning, it would have been natural for Sam to have been suspicious of Benny especially after his experience with Ruby who had once presented herself as a friend of his. Furthermore, on several occasions Dean threw Benny in Sam's face. He compared the two while pointing out how much better than him Benny was. Is it really surprising that Sam would feel hostility towards Benny in those circumstances? I think a lot of people would grow to resent someone if they constantly had to hear about how much better than them this person is.