rogueprinzess

This whole season has been a aimless mess so far. They have all these characters with just...seasons worth of canon and backstory that could be explored and instead they're cramming it all into poorly edited episodes. None of the Flash characters have really had any significant growth yet this season unless you count Cisco getting a bit more comfortable with his Vibe powers. But even that arch has been butchered, likely by the many scenes they've cut. It saddens me so much because the writers ARE writing these scenes for the other characters on this show, and they're even getting filmed, but then they're hitting the cutting room floor. I just don't understand what the show's trying to accomplish at this point. If not the relationships on the show, then what?

Great. Now that I know this can happen, I wants it. BAD.

I'm sure it's spades better than what we've gotten this series. I've read that they've cut a lot of Cisco's scenes too. Two brilliant actors relegated to backest of the back of the line. Such a waste of great talent. Kinda wish CP & CV had been cast on Marvel shows these days...

On the Afterbuzz Flash show, one of the panelists presented an interesting possibility; that the newspaper that Gideon showed the team last season (sidenote - why the heck hasn't the team been using Gideon more often? Seems like a serious goldmine to ignore, especially for Cisco) was actually from E2, not Barry's current timeline. I think that introduces far too many paradoxes, but an interesting speculation.

^^ So true. I think someone in another thread asked whether CP kicked a head producer's puppy or something to deserve the treatment Iris has gotten from season 1b onward. But I know that's just typical CW. They whitewash everything and when they're forced to add diversity to the cast, that cast member pays the price. Honestly, I getting to the point where I think the only reason the show hasn't killed Iris off is because the initial fanboys nearly rioted when the net trolls tried lobbying that Iris was "unnecessary" for the show and that Caitlin was all the woman Barry needed. But if the current trend continues, Iris leaving/dying would almost be better since at least it would make an impact on Barry in some way. Right now, we're on the path of "death by 1000 cuts" where she's concerned. Keeping her on the outskirts of the plot and other main cast members and when she does show up, making her seem overly assertive or judgmental - that's character assassination. Make her seem so unlikable and unimportant that Barry loving her doesn't seem to make any sense. I see Bonnie from TVD all over again. The path they have WA on now will continue making it less and less feasible to see a WA future or desire one. I still watch old episodes from S1a so I remember the chemistry that they have. But that can only them for so long. If anything, I feel like the Flash should just step away from romance all together. They haven't gotten a single romantic relationship right.

ITA with most of the assessments I've read. This episode was better in terms of character development of Barry & Iris, but plot-wise, a bit of a dud.I think other than the episodes of 1.03-1.07, this was the first episode to show Iris actually acting like a reporter, going out to get her story and piecing things together to come to a logical conclusion. Her going to see the racing kingpin alone was foolish, but not completely out of character. How many times have Barry and Joe gone off half-cocked to deal with a baddie on their own when they should have gotten backup/cased out the situation first? What I liked about that scene is that it showed Iris will do anything to protect the people she cares about, much like her father. I think the heavy-handed nature of her arguments with Wally are a result of the show rushing things as usual. I mean Francine died AND apparently had a funeral off camera for god's sake just so we could focus more on...Barry whining about Patty not being there and being single again? Iris has been single for over a year in show time and you don't hear her bitching about it (not like the show would give her the screentime to do so anyways). Anyhoo, now that Iris has had this moment of maturity and a smidge of character growth, maybe now the show can allow her to have a storyline that not only actually intersects with Team Flash, but also is about her and not pushing someone else's plot. Wishful thinking. ETA: I literally threw my hands up when we didn't see Barry anywhere to be found at the hospital with Iris. Really, show? First Iris MIA when Barry was broken (both physically and emotionally) by Zoom and now him not there when she had a potentially fatal puncture wound? I mean, not even a scene of him leaving when Wally shows up? Just nothing? Those kinds of things are so out of character it's comical. I really liked Barry's speech (it was about time he remembered who he was last season - a hero) and that Harry finally stopped trying to lone-wolf saving Jesse. Now that they're all on the same page, maybe we'll actually see them working towards defeating the supposed seasonal baddie. I'm loving the stills from the next episode. I really hope Iris is given more fodder to work with since she wasn't part of the "trip to E2" discussion.

That's what made the whole Barry/Patty thing especially sad. It did nothing for either character. If Barry had learned how to be a better partner, something that would/could help him when he finally does get with his OTL. Or if Patty had learned that her dream was the most important thing for her right now, it could have made that relationship worth it but as it stands, it was really just an exercise in poor behaviour.

Thank you for this. I went to Dragoncon this year and a priest, yep, and actual man of the cloth decided to ask Candice Patton if she was okay with the idea that Barry was in love with his sister since it's biblically condemned act. CP was BALLER and told him in no uncertain terms that Iris and Barry share a paternal figure and that's where it ends. They don't even look the same (her words). He was fully aware of and in contact with his bio father the entire time and never forgot his deceased mother. As far as Barry was concerned, Iris was his best friend and eventually the love of his life - never a sister. There are literally hundreds of stories out there of people who went to live with other families growing up (for various reasons; perhaps coming from an abusive household, foster care etc.) where they ended up falling in love with someone they grew up with. Fraternal feelings (especially in pre-puberty) can change to romantic ones between non-related people and there's nothing sick about that. The first half of season 1 focused more on Barry communicating that, but it fell off in the back half. Even Joe stated that he knew Barry was in love with Iris since he was a kid. Would Joe really advocate that if he thought there was even a hint of a impropriety - especially towards his daughter? Personally I think what would shift the paradigm of Iris and Barry more convincingly is if we could see Barry be "the man in the suit" with Iris. What i mean is, like in episode 1x06, when they're on the roof of Jitters and Iris is literally getting goosebumps from being near "The Flash" and Barry is confident, assertive and even flirtatious with her. Those scenes sparked because Barry had confidence in himself and didn't slip into the "nerdy, awkward guy" Iris has known for years. If we could see more of that Barry with Iris, I think the fraternal vibe would dissipate.

This has been one of the many major issues I've had with this season. I get that Barry did need a note of seriousness after the events of the S1 finale...but it's been over a year now. Considering the super dark themes that Zoom brings to the table, Barry having more levity and sweetness would be a nice balance to the overall tone. Cisco is great, but he needs more than just being the comic relief for the whole show. I'm with you here. Yes, I do love Westallen (in the comics and on this show) but that's not why I disliked her. As I mentioned upthread, she wasn't even a real character IMO. She was a parody of character created solely to be "cute" and "adorable" with Barry and be his seemingly perfect match. They tried WAY too hard with her. Felicity was cute and adorkable and her chemistry with Barry was organic, The showrunners should have picked another actress if they couldn't find that same chemistry for Patty. Besides how terribly her personality was written, there was also the issue with her only living for pleasing the people around her and the boy she was dating. But that's an overarching issue with The Flash in general with its female characters. Shame on them considering that the source material made a point to make the female characters in these stories strong and independent in their own right. But digressing, those two major things made it impossible for me to latch on to Patty for the long term. THIS. It was obvious to me from day one that Barry was never really all that into Patty. As mentioned upthread, he never pursued her, she did all the work. He blatantly stated when Joe asked him about her that as far as Barry was concerned, Patty wasn't Iris. I interpreted that to mean that every woman he comes in contact with as a potential love interest will always be measured by the standard of what Iris is to him (and inevitably fall short). Almost every step in their very brief relationship was initiated by Patty, and usually done with either 1) whining 2) needing validation or 3) ultimatums. Barry never yearned to deepen their relationship, to tell her the truth, or to say ILY. To me, Patty was a distraction, an welcome one during a particularly shitty time. She was doing all the work and he got to enjoy the fruits of that. I never got the impression that Barry ever subconsciously saw Patty as a long term partner. Unfair to Patty? Yes. But so was Patty in that (according to the previous episode) she apparently always planned on hitting CSI school and leaving CC and didn't communicate that to Barry once she felt they were getting serious enough for him to confess his deepest secrets. I do think Barry cares for Patty, but he isn't in love with her and he outright told her that. Maybe if Patty had made him actually work at any part of their relationship he may have valued it more, but as the saying goes: easy come, easy go.

The saddest part about that is that in terms of screen time, exposition and plot involvement, DP is actually the leading lady. If I didn't know better, I'd think she was too. Shame on the show.

While it was fantastic to see Iris have scenes that FOR ONCE weren't revolving around Barry or her dad (and she killed those scenes despite how hollow they came across thanks to the showrunners) as mentioned, it's a crying shame she wasn't told about Reverse Flash returning especially considering what she lost on account of him. This show is completing shitting the bed when it comes to their female characters this season. I mean, season 1 wasn't great, but this is jaw-droppingly awful. Iris being sidelined again for no reason whatsoever (She, like everyone else in CC knows Barry's secret) and is barely present in her own family drama. Caitlin has been made out to be a self-centred, disrespectful snobbish cow with no other purpose than being thirsty, bitchy, self-righteous or all the above. Patty was a caricature from the second she stepped on screen, and they made her into a begging, desperate drama queen who didn't even get to exit with a modicum of decency. She was reduced to playing childish games to get a boy's attention. Just gag. There's no reason all of these women don't/couldn't have a more substantial contribution to the Barry's overall plot. It's all just so lazy. But that aside, I did like the RF as well, even if his story about why he hates Barry is so weak (I didn't like it in the comics either really). Everytime I see Jay I just keep thinking, he's being wasted. There's SO much they can be doing with him and they're just wasting it. Why didn't we have Cisco check in on Zoom or Jesse? The glass board of knowledge and dumbed-down science explanations is the true star of this show. I really, really need the old, fun, silly, snappy Barry to come back already.

I agree that I think Amberle and Wil are better suited - simply because Wil needs someone to help him find purpose for his new-found powers in a way that will actually benefit the world with the war that's coming. She seems to challenge him to be better thus far. While Eretrea is easy on the eyes (and in other things), that does not a good companion make. I do feel somewhat for Eretrea because her background sucked, but she's an adult now and her continuing in a life of crime is truly her own selfishness and fear. Will needs neither of those traits in his life right now. But who knows, maybe this journey will help her grow. But... I too despise triangles. They're nothing more than a cheap trope used to polarize fan looking to start flame wars. I'm fine with Wil not getting into his OTP at such a young age, but for the love of all, please make him decisive. If he's all about Eretrea and her "assaulting" techniques, then stick with that and keep the moon eyes in check. The demon tree told Amberle specifically to keep her mind on the mission and leave the drama to someone else. It was fine if she started liking Wil, but now that she knows that he's knocking pointed shoes with Eretrea she should shake it off, keep her jealousy in check and move on with the saving the world.

Apparently they needed to do some last minute readjusting since the voice actor who played Woodhouse passed away last year. I guess they were planning a huge story arch around him and now they can't. But yes, I was really looking forward to starting January off with Archer's special kind of crudeness.

Are you sure? Batman can be pretty emo about losing his parents and growing up a lonely billionaire with his beady-eyed butler as his only source of companionship. Maybe he's Caitlin's OTL

That's because the show was AMAZING last year. This year it's a meandering, ill-conceived, poorly executed mess. The execs of this show are overextended (Flash, Arrow, Supergirl and now LoT) and it's showing. IMO they're trying too hard to do what Disney/Marvel has with their integrated blockbuster movies and their intricately and expertly threaded TV series. But they're trying to do it all in record time and it's crumbling down as we speak. What Disney/Marvel has done took years of planning and over a decade to execute. They took their time to tell good stories and weave them together. DC is trying to do all of that with too many pots on the fire. As mentioned upthread, last season actually let us enjoy Barry's character, watch him grow and learn and by extension his peers and family do the same. This season has just been characters, concepts and random storylines thrown at us. I mean last season, outside of the Villain of the Week, there was ONE arch-nemesis. This season we've seen Grodd, Zoom, The Weather Wizard, Trickster, Turtle and from next weeks preview, The Reverse Flash again. All of these guys are huge archs in Flash canon. One of them alone could have served for the whole season. But instead they seem to be brought on for no other reason than to show off how good their SFX team is (and they are amazing considering their budget). Total waste especially since none of the villains thus far this season have actually done anything to improve/grow Barry's character or improve Team Flash. It's just so sad because this show has such wonderful actors with so much talent that is just being wasted on poor writing and execution by the showrunners.

^^ Not surprising sadly. Iris has been practically omitted from several episodes, and we know from the stills released that she's had scenes cut. The show made it clear last season and the majority of this one where she falls on their priority list.

I agree with this. While the show hasn't addressed it yet, I think this is a believable assumption. Also as someone else mentioned upthread, Joe admitted in his confession to Iris that he didn't look as hard as he could have for Francine, that he gave up to save himself and Iris more potential heartache. It was a selfish decision but one I can understand even if I wouldn't make it myself. I didn't find Wally's snark to be overwhelming; at the station Captain Singh was singing Joe's praises while Joe was showing off a bit, and Wally poked a hole in the ego. At the race Wally gave Joe a reality check about his life and circumstances when Joe was pulling rank. Yes, he could have been more tactful but as people have said, he's 19-20 years old, and most of us were less than considerate at that age. I think the convo Wally and Joe had at the end was a step in the right direction. They'll have to figure out where to take their relationship from this point on together. I just hope that the same happens for him and Iris. Speaking of Iris, ICAM with the poster who mentioned her fulfilling her contractual obligation of a few minutes in the episode, and in both of her longest scenes, she spent 90% of it talking about Barry or Batty. I was so disappointed that in one of the very rare scenes - that of just two women of the show talking together - the whole conversation revolved around Barry. It's so misogynistic and sad. These are two intelligent, talented women who have far more going on in their lives. But digressing, I'm still waiting (likely vainly) for Iris in her own environment (CCPN) with her own arch and her own feelings. Why couldn't part of her talk with Barry been about her feelings about Wally and refereeing between him and her dad? Patty's departure is similar that Henry's. Abrupt, poorly explained and sadly executed. If I were Barry I'd be developing a complex. Maybe Patty's out camping with Henry, laughing with him about how fun it is to leave Barry with poor excuses whilst roasting marshmallows. I can't say I'll miss her, but mostly because her character added nothing to the show outside of deflowering Barry, which was a huge fail on the writers part. We really need more Cisco/Harry, they're hilarious together. We also just need more Cisco with his own journey outside of STAR labs. Why have we never heard anything more about his brother who lost his freaking hand to protect Cisco last season? I can't even with Caitlin and Jay. I just can't. Though as Cisco said, Jay does look great in a tux. I feel like the Turtle could have been a much more effective multi-arch villain if the show had the ability to convey it. Such a waste of a great actor if we never see him again. We can add him to the ever-growing pile of underutilized characters. Really wondering which episode Kevin Smith is going to be directing this season. Maybe he was lucky enough to get into the writers room and tweak a few things. Lord knows he couldn't make it worse.

Eobard Wells actually admitted to Barry that he did grow to like and care about Team Flash and even Barry despite knowing the ends to his means. One of the main things that disappointed me about the Reverse Flash's story line was that we never got to find out just what it was Barry's alter-ego did to Thawne that made him hate him enough to travel time to kill him. Maybe E2's Thawne will shed some light, but I don't trust the writers to remember that loose string from last season. But digressing, yes, Eobard was far more "socially conscious" than Dick!Wells. I think that it's due to the stereotypical "arrogant genius" complex that most high-functioning people fall into. Few people in Dick!Well's life have likely ever been able to keep up with and/or understand him, and as a result he probably became a recluse that often works alone or only with secular underlings. He's more believable as the head of a bleeding-edge scientific facility iMO. He kind of reminds me of a slightly less couth Caitlin.

So much YES to this. I didn't think a forced relationship could be as bad as Allison and Isaac until Layden. For the love of our eyes and sanity, make it stop. Neither of those actors have any emotive abilities that I've seen. I can't help but wish that the actor who plays Mason had been cast as Liam instead. The chimera attachment to Theo is about as sensible as the ease with which Scott, Stiles and everyone else in Scott's "pack" were seduced by his charm. It's purely for plot device (and lazy device at that), though there seems to be a glitch in the system when it comes to Corey/Invisi-boy (that's a great moniker btw). He clearly has no desire to do anything other than return to his past pre-chimera life. I too thought it was weird that they brought up Mason's dating life at this juncture. I mean, it's a general rule of thumb to avoid dating zombies methinks, especially when there's a pack of murderous chimeras and a black oily/Wolf-from-Neverending-Story beast running about. I really hope that the s/l with Kira is going somewhere cool. Her character and supernatural storyline have been horribly underutilized thus far.

I agree with this. They showed that Quinn hasn't been at all sympathetic to Ryder's plight, even when he was a child. Lydia mentioned that Quinn refused to pay the ransom on Ryder and that's why Ryder was maimed in the first place. Between the mental torture that his captors likely inflicted on him, the emotional abuse that his father then subsequently put him through when he a) refused to treat him like a priority by paying the ransom (though I get to an extent why Quinn didn't want Nomads thinking that they could use his family against him - cold but effective) and b) essentially disowned him when he realized Ryder wasn't "whole" anymore - it's highly likely that Ryder is crippled on the inside.

Yes to all of these. I sometimes get bothered by the fact that despite Scott/Tyler being the official show lead that Stiles/Dylan gets most of the heavy emotional stuff. But he's just so damned good at it that I can't stay bothered for long. I'll never tire of seeing a healthy, emotional, loving relationship between a father and son on television. There really isn't enough of those. The scene with Mason was EPIC. I literally yelped when Liam ripped that page and felt the utter shock and dismay that he did at the brutalization against literary goodness. I really like Mason as well. I really wish he'd been Scott's beta instead of Liam. He and his new little girlfriend make my ass itch. And yes, Papa Argent and his incredible blue eyes can visit as often as he wants. Even if the story doesn't warrant it. I miss Deaton though. Wasn't happy Kira is still MIA but at least she's still in the credits. I think Scott's wound is more serious than the average because it came from his Beta, after all, a beta can steal an Alpha's power by force. There really just needs to be a section of every TW episode dedicated to Ryan Kelley's abs. That is all. When is Derek coming back? *hinthintTW*

THIS. That's my main reason for not wanting any more Quinn. MS did a good job with Quinn, despite his weird accent and over the top "evil eye" he had on pretty much permanently, his character's purpose was to make us hate him and feel uncomfortable around him and MS accomplished that. I think he would have been doing something wrong if we were all rooting for him to live. I agree that his death was intentionally shot to leave ambiguity about his survival, but I really, really hope the writers choose to let him die in season 2 (I'm just going to act as though the show is renewed, positive thinking...yeah). It makes for much more interesting fodder for the remaining characters if Quinn's dead (i.e. Jade, Ryder, Lydia). I'm still trying to decide where I'd like the second season to start off. Right after what happened in the finale? Or maybe a year later, with Sunny fighting his way out of whatever the River King sold him into trying to get back to Veil, Veil trying to raise their super-saiyan stabby-from-birth child while believing Sunny's dead, Baron Pee Pants failing miserably at running the territory, Lydia plotting revenge after taking her father out and leading the cult for herself and the Widow moving in on other Barons...

I like the idea of a "light" vs "dark" ones from Azra. This could be a result of the genetic engineering, perhaps some come out "light" while others "dark" and the "dark" ones have started congregating because people (like Lydia's father and his cult) hunt them. Or maybe they're all 'dark" but some can be "switched off" if maybe they're too dangerous or don't comply with the "dark ones" rules. But I find it interesting that dark monks from the temple didn't seem to know about MK at all, sense him etc., so I also wonder if maybe MK's mom was one of them, but ran away before MK was born so he wouldn't end up like them? Bah, so many questions raised. I am not feeling great about the fact that Sunny stabbed Quinn in the abdomen. I mean, I understand that he wanted Quinn to suffer, but he could have slit his throat, just deep enough to bleed out but slowly and nearly impossible to fix. An ab wound can be fixed especially if it's a clean one straight through. But I'm praying that Sunny twisted that sword and nicked plenty of arteries/veins on the way in and out. I can't do another season with Quinn. I interpreted that scene a bit differently. I think Veil is just against killing period (a slave to her nature as Quinn put it). I think her naivete comes from her sheltered life. She grew up under the protection of being the Baron's doctor's child, so she's never been branded, never had to do manual labour, has education, etc. unlike the vast majority of her sistren. Then in her adulthood, she entered a relationship with a Regent, so again, more protection from would-be assailants. Also, Veil didn't exactly spend much time actually asking the Widow about her philosophies. I think to Veil, the Widow is like Quinn in that she "forces" others to kill for her and cares only about power. But I also think the show messed up with her dialogue/development in this episode a bit. I had a bigger issue with her giving Sunny attitude about not stopping the Baron from killing her parents. Yes, I get that Sunny should have been more forthcoming about being there when it happened, but if Veil thinks it through, she should have known that at that time, Sunny clipping Quinn wouldn't have guaranteed that she, her parents or Sunny would be safe. She also knows how loyal Sunny was to the Baron at that point. Anyhow, it just made her seem a bit hypocritical, but I'll chalk that up to pregnancy hormones. Speaking of which, I'm very happy the baby survived. I'm pretty sure Jade poisoned herself. Ryder kind of confirmed as much when Lydia realized he told Jade about the Baron's second wife. Also, Jade kind of smiled to herself when Quinn threw Lydia out of the Fort, like she was satisfied with herself. But I do think she worked with Ryder to figure out where Lydia kept that secret box full of the poisonous plants. Jade moved too rashly IMO. Her biggest trump card was having the Baron in pocket, but now that he's *dead* all she has is Ryder and he isn't strong enough to keep the clipper force or cogs that are left in line. I'm pretty sure most will take off once they find out Quinn's gone.

I think it was interesting that the other "Dark Ones" hit certain points (seemingly Chi points" on MK to take him down. it's like it disabled his power. i wonder if perhaps that's what happened to Sunny; that his chi was somehow blocked as a child and that's why he can't go all super saiyan per se, but still has the advanced agility/fighting skills/etc. But...that doesn't explain why the Widow isn't a better fighter then. Mind you, maybe there's more than one kind of "special" with them. So does that mean that the hilltop/airbending temple that the other Dark Ones were at is Azra? How come they have a car? Why didn't they notice that Sunny's fighting ability was crazy good for a "normie"? How did Quinn know everything about everything in the end? Why didn't Sunny cut Quinn's head off? Man, this episode left me with SO many questions. That last fight scene was boss though. One of the best I've seen in a long time.

I guess my point was that despite the fact that the credits say that there are two women in the main cast, you wouldn't know that if you watched this show without watching the credits. CPs role was supposed to be the lead female part, and yet there have been whole episodes where she wasn't even present. I get that she doesn't have to be there all the time, but if we were to compare sheer screen time between CP and DP, there's a glaring difference. Yes, in S1, Iris wasn't in the "know" about Barry's secret, but that shouldn't have stopped the writers from showing us her life/development as a character outside of that. We never get to hear what Iris is thinking or feeling from her actual lips. Caitlin has had several monologues where she's talked about her past, her relationships, how she feels etc. I'm just saying that considering that CS/DP is supposed to be supporting vs CP being leading, the screen time doesn't show it. But ICA that the writing for (and the amount of) women on this show is terribly lacking, and embarrassingly more so with the addition of a female EP this season (Stanton) who worked under a writer/producer that was so earnestly feminist when it came to writing for women (Shonda Rimes). It's like the showrunners don't understand that you can have a show that can keep the fanboys interested but draw in more female viewers as well. That could be cool, but not this season for the love of cheese. There are already so many characters that have fallen into the under-utilized wasteland already, let's not add another iconic speedster to the heap. I'm still not sure they'll do Wally any justice at this point. Also, having Bart would mean the show would have to acknowledge that Barry and Iris actually get together at some point. This season seems to be desperately running in the opposite direction of that.