Carrie Ann

I love Sara and I'm actually very open to liking Ray on LoT (though I didn't like him on Arrow), so I wasn't opposed to Arrow setting them up for LoT. I think there was a lot of potential for good story there. But I really don't like the way they're executing it so far, so that's what's making me wish it were already over and done. In PTV's Arrow review, Monty pointed out that Felicity is stuck in an Idiot Plot, and she is. She's getting a bunch of code on her phone and she doesn't bother to check it out? Curtis has to be the one to identify it? She learns that it's code Ray created and she doesn't question that any further? Come on. This is a person who hates mysteries! She has an insatiable urge to dig into stuff like this. I don't care how busy she's supposed to be, this is making her stupid and it's already boring for the audience because we know exactly what's happening. And Sara...I mean, I don't even know where to begin on how terribly muffed that whole thing has been. So I'm left to feel like the Arrow writers knew they had to get to Point B (Ray and Sara alive), and just wrote their way backward in the laziest possibly way. I'm not interested in watching shitty plotting and characterization, so now I just wish it were already over so Ray and Sara could get to LoT (which I also plan to watch), and Arrow could get back to...whatever it is those writers DO want to write about.

She was SO pretty this episode, especially in the last scene. This shirt, the hair, the lighting--all working for Willa.

I would like to see more of the small moments too, with the characters just talking like normal people who have history together, or still have things to reveal to each other. Plus, hugs. I could use more hugs. But I have no complaints about that this season, funny enough, because I feel like we've had those moments in every episode so far, and maybe this one more than any. OQ finally said some true things to QL (and not just the mean ones), and I thought those resonated emotionally even though I have no use for Quentin anymore. But I actually thought Thea and Oliver had the best scenes together in 404. First the talk when he was disillusioned about Lance, and then the whole staffing up his office, writing his speech, telling him she's been paying attention for three years to the way he cares about the city. I thought Thea was perfect this week, and those scenes were really sweet. I hate how much we miss over the hiatuses too (that's where all the best parts of O/F's relationship have happened so far--that summer of flirting we missed and then the beginning of their relationship), but that's the show's choice, and how it's always going to be.

I'm sorry, the thumbs-up button wasn't enough to express my love for this perfect post. I am relieved to see that Oliver will get his loud voice on with Laurel, but from the sounds of it, all will be resolved between them this episode, so I'm sure she gets off the hook just as quickly as Quentin did last night. Honestly, the writers just can't be bothered to consider, let alone write, an actual character/relationship development arc for LL.

I forgot in my List of Lance Family Complaints to note that Quentin had the audacity to say to Oliver that he joined up with DD two months ago because he needed help and "you weren't here." Are you?? serious???? I...hate everyone in that family other than Sara so much. I hope Sara takes on a brand-new identity when she moves on, because she doesn't deserve to have to bear that name anymore. Anyhoodle. One other annoying thing from the sideplots: I still don't really like or understand Felicity being so prickly with Curtis. I thought they were supposed to be friends, and he's almost always super nice and polite to her (aside from his little flubs), and she's just kind of snotty back to him? Whatever they're going for here, it's not working for me, at all. That plus the unnecessary emotion about Ray (unnecessary for ME because I'm just not into spending any more time on him on this show, not that I think Felicity is unduly upset about this, although...yeah, I don't really buy it TBH), and all the PT stuff so far is bugging me. On the positive side! I do like the new lair, and I liked the Thea/Oliver scene at the end, and I did like Oliver finally being able to lay into Lance, although yeah, QL got off the hook WAY too easily here. Like daughter, like father I guess.

This was A Mess, holy cow. I'm not even sure how I feel about everything else in the ep, but I do know how I felt about all things Lance Family. Not great, Bob. On the negative side, we still have this problem where it's like one story exists completely outside of the rest of the show. But on the positive side, at least this year, it's Laurel on that show and not Felicity! So it's way more convenient for me, because I suspect I'll like this episode much better on my 2nd watch, when I skip all the flashbacks AND the Laurel scenes. I can't believe how anticlimactic Lance seeing Sara was. I can't believe how nonchalant Laurel was about the whole thing. I can't believe how devoid of emotion and drama that all felt. I can't believe it was tucked into an episode as the C Plot??? My God, this show could not care less about Laurel. Also her poses and 'tude were seriously OTT this episode, and totally incongruous with what was going on on her show, where her super traumatized sister just came back to life and LL's acting like she's just waiting for her feral foster kitty to poke its head out from under the bed.

Well, I'm one of the people who referred to CD as disgusting (and her comment elicited the "vomit" response), and I was being hyperbolic. CD has said plenty of things that make me side-eye her, but in this case, I was specifically referring to the comment that Damon's not killing Bonnie is a "gift to Elena." To me, that view (coupled with her tone that indicated she thought it was a good thing, not an eye-rolling thing) means that CD sees Bonnie as inherently of less value than Elena and Damon's friendship with Bonnie as fairly meaningless. Perhaps she just misspoke, or perhaps her words belie her indifference toward Bonnie. Basically, I don't think we have any evidence that CD values Bonnie any more highly than JP does. CD has been showrunner or co-runner since S3, so if JP wanted to kill Bonnie off and Kat was the one who convinced her not to, then clearly CD wasn't speaking up about it. Also, CD has a hard time talking about Bonnie without making sure to compare her to Elena and talk about how Bonnie has been "empowered" by Elena, is taking the reins from Elena in terms of serving as Damon's moral compass, etc. Uh, great, what an exciting time for her.

Yeah, I have a long list of things I would change about The Flash if I were Queen of the World, and one is that I would have made it so Iris was away for college for the last 4-5 years when Barry went into the coma. So when she came back and became a daily part of his life, it would have been sort of like getting to know each other again. That would have also provided a nice break between growing up together and becoming adults who might develop romantic feelings for each other. Alas. And I agree with others that I just don't see any heat with GG and any love interest they've paired him with so far. I think he'd be capable of it, but frankly, they should have paired him with someone whose presence is more like Oliver's. Barry is a sweet little puppy. Pairing him with other puppies is only ever going to be cute, not hot. On one hand, I'm fine with that, because that's the kind of show The Flash wants to be. It's not going to have a 'ship for the ages, and that's okay. On the other hand, Lois and Clark managed to have that tone AND have a 'ship that hit every note--friendly, romantic, sexy.

Seriously, who can we talk to about this? If MG is so in love with it, can Ray just take it with him to LoT?

Yeah, I don't dispute that Bonnie and Damon would never have been friends without Elena. They definitely wouldn't have become as close without being stuck in 1994 together, because Damon would never have taken his focus off of Elena for long enough to open up to Bonnie, even as a friend. But that doesn't mean that their friendship is enmeshed or intertwined with D/E's relationship. They are separate things. I think B/D solidified their friendship as its own thing over the course of last season, and now this one. Or maybe I'm just sick of everything being about Elena, even after ND has left the show...!

Ewwwww, good to know CD is still disgusting. Odd that she was the one who wrote the premiere in which she made Damon say (when Bonnie asked if he knew how long three seconds are when you're in a near-death situation): "And by the third [second], I remembered you're my best friend and that if anything ever happened to you, I would lose my mind." No, I think Damon would kill anyone, including Stefan and himself, if it were the difference between Elena being Really Dead or not. So we agree. My point was that Damon would save Bonnie in ALL cases except that one. So saving her is the neutral position, given that Elena's death was not at issue. Sorry--I lost track of where this discussion began. I'm not arguing this point in response to the concept of a romantic B/D relationship at all, though I was in favor of it last season prior to the finale. For me, I only began to like Damon again (after two seasons of hate) because of his friendship with Bonnie, and that friendship was without question my favorite thing about S6, and Bonnie my favorite character that season. I saw that as a real, deep friendship, one that signalled to me an actual change in Damon--one that, importantly, had nothing to do with Elena--so I'm just reacting to seeing that relationship and Bonnie herself described in terms that render them both subordinate to Elena. Damon has (platonic) feelings for Bonnie that have nothing to do with Elena, and those feelings are at least as important in terms of why he wants Bonnie to stay alive as his giving a "gift to Elena." (Seriously, vomit, CD.)

Yeah, they're pretty clearly just trying to pair Bonnie with Damon Lite because they won't put her with Damon (and despite really liking their chemistry, I'm fine with that choice from a storytelling perspective) and in order to make Enzo relevant in some way? But he is SO lame as a character, and it sucks they're saddling Bonnie with him when they've finally figured out how to make her character work. She shouldn't have to carry around all that dead weight too. But at this point, I just want to skip ahead already. I hate what's going on in the present-day story, and I'd rather be watching the three years from now stuff. Wondering about what's happening then only makes me antsy, and makes the present-day stuff even worse in comparison.

I disagree that letting Bonnie die would have been the neutral position, and I also disagree that Damon saved her for Elena. If Elena weren't under this spell, and Bonnie were in danger, Damon would have saved Bonnie. If Elena were dead instead of just put to sleep, Damon would have saved Bonnie. So saving her life IS the status quo/neutral position, in my opinion. It's not above-and-beyond. And letting her die when Damon had the ability to save her would have been tantamount to killing her. Damon also loves Bonnie, and even before they were good friends, he saved her even while bitching about it. That's what all of these people do for each other. For the same reasons, I think it's reductive to say that Damon saves Bonnie because of Elena. Certainly, it would go against his interests w/r/t Elena to let Bonnie die, but he himself said in the premiere that it's not just that. It can be all things. I agree that Elena is most important to Damon, and I certainly agree that Elena has lost something because of Kai. I just consider it a loss, not a sacrifice FOR Bonnie, when, 1) it wasn't an active undertaking (again, see Elena proactively giving herself over to Klaus in S2; forcing Stefan to take Matt from the car in S3) and 2) the alternative is the loss of someone else's actual whole life. So, to come at it from ONE more angle before I give up--if Kai's spell had been "Bonnie is a breath away from death, and the only way to save her is for Elena to go into this deep sleep that she won't wake up from until Bonnie dies for real" and THEN Elena had stepped up and said, 'Yes, I'll do it!'" then THAT would have felt like "taking the bullet" for Bonnie.* That's an active step. Again, Elena's only options here were to accept the condition she was already in (status quo) OR to have Bonnie killed (via someone else). It's not a sacrifice to simply choose not to let Bonnie die prematurely, or to not save her when you have that capability (in Damon's case). (*I almost wish it had gone that way, because that would have felt heroic to me. That would have been equivalent to the ways Bonnie has sacrificed for others. But this show didn't care enough about Bonnie or about Bonnie/Elena over the years to have really sold that.)

Yeah, I think it's pretty easy to screw that bit up, honestly. The character was removed from the action; it's easy to forget to deal with them again after that. It could have started all the way back at script level, which wouldn't surprise me at all, and it would be easy for anyone at the network/studio to miss it as well, because I don't think they're really reading for that type of detail. Usually, they want writer's assistants to catch that stuff, but everyone makes mistakes. Or it could have been an error in the directing. The director chose to have OQ walk away from RP after the fight--maybe that wasn't in the script, and the scene ended on the RP/OQ handshake, so you would just infer that Oliver went to Roy after that--or he just walked the wrong direction. Or lastly, it could have been an error in the editing room. The only reasons I kind of don't think it was just edited wrong is that Oliver walks away and would basically have to U-Turn back to get Roy, AND I think that if you had footage of Oliver getting Roy, an editor would not have cut it out because they would have realized it was necessary. But certainly, anyone along the way could have noticed that Roy wasn't dealt with properly, and no one did. Anyway, that is all still pretty hilarious to me, especially because SA seemed preeeeeeetty annoyed about it and I like when perfectionists get a little ruffled.

That may be the show's view of it--and even Damon's--but for that to be true, you have to take the position that Bonnie's life is somehow of less inherent value than Elena's. I found that E/B scene very annoying (even while I was crying b/c of ACTING) for that reason. The idea that Elena is making a sacrifice by not wanting/allowing/encouraging Bonnie to die prematurely in order for Elena to be awake for these specific six decades, instead of the 60 years after that.... No. The neutral condition is that Bonnie deserves to live her full life, no matter how that impacts Elena. Elena is not making a sacrifice by not actually dying and magnanimously not making Bonnie die either. No one is actually making a sacrifice here. Elena is the victim, yes and she is doing the right thing, and all her loved ones are suffering because they miss her, but no one is sacrificing for Bonnie. Even if the spell had meant that Elena were about to die, and the only way to save her would be to kill Bonnie, it STILL wouldn't be a sacrifice for Elena to die. If Bonnie weren't the target of the magic spell, then killing her is still killing her. "Letting" her live is still the neutral condition. If the roles were reversed, and Elena jumped in and said, "NO! You have to kill me, you can't let Bonnie die!" (aw, remember Season 2 Elena?), then THAT is a sacrifice.

I honestly think that maybe no one involved noticed until it aired.

Yeah, the spell included her staying the same age. So she'll start aging again when she wakes up, apparently.

Aaaaah, Oliver's tie matches Felicity's dress, bury me here.

Yeah, it's the latter. Good news is he's not the only person who runs this show anymore! And the other person wrote this episode, and allowed Nyssa to voice all the things wrong with Laurel's actions! Now, I still don't think LL will be the one who faces lasting consequences, and yeah, I think they'll let her off the hook and someday force Sara to thank her for bringing her back, etc. etc., but it's nice to believe that at least one person with power in the writers' room sees some problems with Laurel and her actions.

I noticed that too--shirt, hair, everything identical. Come on, production staff, pull it together. I ended up rewatching all three episodes today while I was recovering from a migraine, and I liked this one WAY better the second time around. (I think it felt off to me yesterday because I felt off.) Watching them in order helped with the issue of familiarity with the sets, etc. Oh also, it might have helped that I skipped the flashbacks and any Laurel scene that didn't involve Nyssa. :) Anyway, I'm much happier with it, and honestly, would be quite pleased if the rest of the season maintains this level of quality.

Yeah, I'm assuming this is going to be the episode with that scene from the longer trailer with Felicity crying, and I suspect the conflict will be resolved in-episode. Because...yeah, enough with Ray as roadblock.

Something about this episode felt weird and off to me--I think it was just the direction, or maybe I'm just not used to all the new sets (I was almost relieved to see the NP set because it felt familiar), or maybe it's having a meta on Arrow, plus the Lazarus Pit, plus Damien and all his magic...I don't know. It made the OTA stuff feel almost incongruous. Like it was my old show greenscreened into something I didn't recognize. I...didn't totally buy it, to be honest, and all the repetition of "OTA" felt like over-compensation. Oh well, hopefully they walk the walk for the rest of the season! I'm also not really used to CEO Felicity and I found her early interactions with Curtis kind of...off-putting. She seemed more like Ray in those scenes than like herself. Hmmm. Also, the flashbacks are boring and gross so far, so I'm just going to FF and let you all fill me in on any important details for the rest of the season. But! All was redeemed because Nyssa survived and said all the things I wanted her to say, and was right as usual. Now I hope she gets to act on those things someday and be the one who kills Malcolm. She is without question my favorite costumed heroine in this universe. *hearteyes emoji*

It would be the actual best. So good that I find myself bargaining with the Arrow gods, like, hey! If you keep Nyssa alive and let her depose Malcolm and get some vengeance, I will give LL another chance! I'm also willing to believe this because if she really were in charge of the LoA, then maybe she just hasn't been filming because she's kinda stuck in NP! Plus Sara is effed up and she can't stand to see it! Plus other evidence! Whatever! I'll take anything that keeps her alive.

Yeah, I think Nyssa's a goner, and my guess is it's a mystical life-for-life thing, but not something I think they're going to know about in advance, because I don't think any of them would allow it to go forward. It'll be something like "the person they love the most" dies or something--or maybe it'll be like Sara is momentarily Rogue and she grabs Nyssa and absorbs her lifeforce!--and that's (another reason) why they'll never bring anyone else back. Anyway, this is a super great plan, so glad we're maybe going to lose another awesome character for no reason, can't wait for tonight.

From the spoiler thread, but not spoiler-y: Here's my take on this, after last week. Clearly, the writers don't hate Laurel, but I don't think the writers like writing Laurel. I think they like having the Black Canary on their show, and maybe they like writing "badass" moments, but I don't think they get excited about writing Laurel scenes. Obviously it's just speculation, and I swear I'm not trying to be a jerk, but just based on how they treat her and how they talk about her and the lack of life in her scenes, I just don't see any interest there. I don't think they take time to think about her as a character in all dimensions, or about defining a voice for her. So she's written as a cipher, and then it's up to KC to add the nuance. For that reason, in the current situation, Laurel is really just a plot-propelling tool. They want to bring Sara back, and hey, that gives Laurel something to do! But they don't take a minute to think about how to go about that, in order to show some sort of character growth or really define Laurel. Again, unless they're TRYING to show her as self-centered, unwilling to listen, etc., then this is unintentional, and that to me says they just can't be bothered to care about or even consider Laurel as a character outside of her costume. So I hope they're not disappointed when some viewers can't be bothered either.