alexvillage

It happened a couple of times with me, recently. Not really "on Broadway", it was the traveling companies. I don't follow the artists, don't really know most of the big names, so I don't care. Besides, there is a lot of talent that we never hear about. The shows went fine with whatever changes.

It was, in a way, and that's why the ticket sales picked up. As I understood (from the book) a change like that would have a billboard-like announcement. In this case, it was the poster at the entrance of the theater and an announcement before the beginning of the show. People did go to the first performance (with Liza) not knowing about the change. I watched All That Jazz again via Netflix DVD (Thank you Jordan Baker!) and the special features has a conversation between Ann and Erzsebet (Michelle). Interesting that Erzsebet went on to be part of the Twyla Tharp company and she credits her opening up to different styles of dance to Bob and the part in the movie. The last 10 minutes of the conversation (Ann does a lot of the talking) is like a bunch of excuses for "the wrong ideas about who Bob was". Really silly. His legacy as an artist can, and should be separated from his failures (my opinion) as a man.

I am almost finished with the book and they do try to "explain" why they put up with that. There is some speculation that Bob had Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is possible by what I am reading (except that the explanation is the old, discredit "refrigerator mother/parent" - that's bull). People who do have NDP excel in manipulating others. When you are with them, you don't always see it. Even when you know that they will try that, you can still fall for it. What annoys me in the book is how the people who were interviewed after his death still somewhat defend his actions, as if his talent and his legacy excuse his shitty behavior. I am not a medical professional, I never met Bob Fosse, but I did live for years with someone with NDP, that's why I think this speculation is not far fetched.

I was just questioning the same thing when one of the guests mentioned the lack of disabled people in scientology. Being involved with disability rights, that's the first thing that comes to me, and not only physical disabilities, but also developmental and intellectual disabilities. It is not possible for, among the "millions" of members in the world, not to have disabled people in the families. So, how are they treated? They like to show themselves as so "intelligent" and employ ableist views on others, so do they segregate the disabled parishioners and institutionalize them in a scientology place? The so-called "intelligence" is subjective, but some people do have disabilities that require extra supports to learn, some will always need a lot of support with just staying alive. But if scientology "cures" everything, what happens to the ones they seem to consider so damaged?

Yes, they got it right not making a big fuzz when Liza came in. I will speculate that the reason why Chicago didn't have a big start and better reviews was, in part, due to the success of A Chorus Line, that premiered just a week (or something lose to that) before and people went bananas about it. I guess two big names are supposed to surpass each other and the critics expected more from Fosse than they saw?

When I saw the gusts speaking about cults and how they commit all these crimes, abuses, all the while claiming that they are doing it to do good, a question popped in my head: how is it different from some segments of the biggest religions? I am not asking this to make people feel bad about their out religiosity, to faith, but because what I see is people in high places in the big religious organizations supporting oppressive legislation - and being able to buy politicians - to move their agenda on a couple of points, but "refusing" to see the bigger picture, how said agenda will actually do more harm than what they call "good". I am avoiding getting into specifics here but I guess that, being 2019, more specifically this month, and looking at Washington DC, and the very real danger of hate crimes directed at some groups, and of death to some people who seek help, you can guess what I am talking about. In other countries we see religion dictating and actually killing people who "disobey". While scientology needs to be exposed, it is disgusting and apparently unaccountable to the "justice" system, as a religion, it is not alone in the unaccountability. But older religions seem to be immune to "All the horrible things we do is for a better good" - that is only better for them. The "parishioners" of the scientology cult, are no different from other followers of other religions who see the evil and still believe that there is a reason to keep doing the evil. In the same way they don't see it as a cult, followers of other religions don't see theirs as a cult either. I think there is an element of cultism in every religion and I see that happening right now.

Exactly. and I will go further. Watching what Leah is doing and what others have been doing to expose the church, I find Katie and Nicole Kidman assholes. Katie doesn’t have family in the church, her daughter - if reports are true - doesn’t have a relationship with her father yet Katie is silent because the money that buys the lush life is more important than standing up to the abuses people are going through. Fuck her.

I had totally forgotten about that! Signed up for it. Thanks for reminding me that DVD rental is a thing - outside libraries!

Quoting this just now because I started watching the show yesterday, am reading the thread for the first time. Even before I knew what scientology was, I was somewhat harassed by someone in the streets of New York (that was 1986, I was visiting, I grew up in another country), was given a short lecture on it but my spoken english wasn't good, so they gave up, I guess. I kept the literature in some box, and when the internet came full force and I started reading about it, being disgusted by it. All this is to say that I do read things that mention it and I don't buy, for a second, that Katie Holmes was a victim of Tom Cruise's entitled self. I think she wanted to advance her career and she played well, maybe with the encouragement/help of her father. I also don't think that dressing Suri like a mini-mom was a scientology thing. I did read something where KH said Suri picked her own clothes, inferring that the heels and diva-like dressing was encouraged by Katie (it was post divorce). Apparently, spending a lot of money on clothes not really suited for a young child (imo, a fur coat and exclusive dresses are not must-haves pieces of a kid's wardrobe) was a favorite mother-daughter event. The paparazzi thing is also not a scientology privilege. It is a known Hollywood PR stunt: agents call them and tell them where their client is going to be. How the actor appears, depends on what they need at that moment in time. Having said that, anytime a child is pulled from the cult it is a win, so Suri is better off away from it, even if she has been "used" by her mother/mother's agents as well.

I don't know if it was mentioned here before but there is a very good documentary on You Tube - it is from 1990 - about Bob Fosse. Some of the book's references were apparently on what people say in this documentary. Interesting thing: there is a photo of a very young Bob - maybe from school? And the spelling is "Bobbie". I am dying to watch All That Jazz again, anyone knows where I can? Cannot find it anywhere online, there is a very bad quality You Tube video, but nothing else. And is it possible to watch "Dancin''" anywhere? Thanks in advance.

I just started watching this on Hulu. I thought I would hate it but I am actually finding it very interesting. I had no idea of who Leah Remini was. I probably saw her through the years but not really into the TV shows she was in. As for the show, I hope more people watch it. And I also hope that more people make the connections with other religions that can be as cultist as Scientology. I have a family member who is an evangelical pastor and I can't even talk tho them anymore. The whole family, including the young children, are brain washed to believe in ignorant explanations for things they don't support, while ignoring the very clear facts of abuses of people they do. When Leah talks about how the church of scientology preaches things they violate all the time, the image it comes to my mind is of these family members being the arrogant beings, full of superiority, giving the rest of us the bible quotes while supporting all the oppression right in front of them.

Sure the warrant can even exist but as usual we were given part of a story that doesn't make sense. It would take one extra line from the cop: we have a warranty to search the contents in the stomach of this man. Then they would pump the stomach. Either they had the warrant and sat on their asses waiting for whatever, or they didn't and the plot fails. Cannot have it both ways. And I think that "leaking a little" is already an emergency, so the plot failed again. Sorry, I am doing logic.

A little interesting fact I learned from the book: Michael Bennett - A Chorus Line - and Fosse didn't like each other (Bob criticized Bennett's style in an arrogant/jealous way). Chicago and A Chorus Line opened at the same time, the previews praised A Chorus Line and trashed Chicago (initially). Years later Nicole Fosse was in the A Chorus Line movie. And Ann was the lead on A Chorus Line fora a while.

All the possible explanations the writers want for this plot lead to the same wall of absurdity. Altered mental state after swallowing a balloon supposedly full of drugs are non sequitur. If the ballon popped inside his stomach, he would die, or at least be in a terrible shape, and then yes, the emergency treatment I believe would be to pump his stomach. Pumping the stomach based on suspicion, without evidence (the X-ray showed the ballon but nt what was inside), requires a warrant. Assholes still have 4th amendment rights, at least the white assholes seem to have theses days.

That's one reason why shows need to finish after 5 seasons. The writers get worse with every season, they run out of ideas, the actors start to suck, they fire people to make more money that goes to the producers, actors who cannot act get too comfortable doing a shitty job because that's their bread and butter and as long as they don't care about quality, they are employed and don't give a fuck about the art. Did I mention that the writers cannot write? A medical drama becomes a superhero/mafia/fantasy/pastiche/bad comedy/overdramatic whatever, that has little resemblance with medicine - unless you count impossible plots where a little kid is given 30 minutes of chest compressions and a little blood gets him awake and asking to play - hahaha/awn/yikes/ugh. There are very few shows that can stay interesting for more than five seasons. Medical shows try to copy ER but they can't. ER, with al the problems, is still good. It showed how nurses are overworked and underpaid, for example. Grey's shows doctors being forever children, or over sexualized teens, and they are all selfish. But that's true for all Shondaland productions, so the link is clear to me. Note: I don't even try to watch it anymore. I tried for a while last year because of some plot lines, then I got bored, just as I did after trying to watch the first seasons, on and off.

And that's another "not how it really happens in real life" moment. He wasn't going to jail. At least, he shouldn't. As far as we saw, there was not warranty, so they could not search him, and whatever is inside of him is his property. Unless I missed something, all the cops had was "we saw him swallow a pack that might be drugs". Even if there was anything else that would be probable cause for arrest, he wasn't arrested. He would be handcuffed to the bed if he were. He was a very bad lawyer, not knowing his rights. He could have just walked out of the hospital and said he didn't consent to any search. I am sure the cops would be ok with that - after all, he was a white man.

The casting of this new Nicole was terrible. The actress is 26 years old, she is playing Nicole at 12. She does look older than the actress playing Ann. Big miss. I don't think Ann is being portrayed as "bad guy". It seems about right and they are focusing on another relationship, so things will go unmentioned. I might be the only one but I guess the rape memory scenes were well done. Yes, it mentions the 3 older brothers and one older sister, then a younger sister who was much younger than in the show though, and Bob loved her to death, according to the book. After their parents died, Bob only kept closer (kind of) with the younger sister, Marianne.

And as mentioned before, on a Sunday, when all the doctors and office personnel go to hang out and treat non-emergency patients just for fun. Which reminds me that all that happened the episode before, the board member, office supplies,, it all happened on a Sunday too. This is such lazy writing, something that they could easily have changed to make a little closer to relatable to reality. I know, I am thinking logically. Apologies.

Emily is messy and irresponsible but this alone is not a reason for anyone to lose parental rights. It already happens a lot in real life, and it is - more often than not - unfair. Emily needs supports she is not getting, the writers are writing her in a very biased way. The paternalistic way Ethan reacted bothers me more than the very human reaction of someone being overwhelmed by life and not able to cope. Who is he to tell her she will not take her child? Even if he is "right", concerned about the child's safety, he is a doctor, not child service protection, and he showed no compassion at all.

The writers do it on purpose right? The hypocrisy of Dr. Charles and Natalie talking about “the rights of the patient” in a serious way, as if they didn’t walk all over another patient’s rights. All those people are so self righteous, they think they are supreme, above all other humans. Ugh!

I disagree. I am reading the book and it is not so black and white, the book give us a lot more insight based on actual research. I don't think the series show them as miserable or horrible, even if Bob did do horrible things. AS already said by others here, while his actions are not excusable, the context - time and circumstance - in which they happened explain a lot. I kind of admire Nicole for overseeing a biography that doesn't whitewash who her patents were (assuming she has the power to change things on her own). I guess her work in the foundation established to preserve their work speaks for itself.

I guess you forgot /rolls eyes/

The writers went way overdramatic with the lawyer story. Was he under arrest? Because if not, all he had to do was to walk out, no need to steal an ambulance. As I understood, he was brought in because the police saw him swallowing a bag of coke. But if they didn't have a warranty, they were violating his 4th amendment rights by arresting on suspicion and waiting for him to pass the bag (or die). And the guy is a lawyer, ffs! This show is illogical not only in medicine, but everything else.

Georgia is fine, loaded in the ambulance with Kappor by her side. Bloom's leg is twisted the wrong way, she is given chest compressions, but at the end (aerial view) the people working on her (ER doctor that took over for Bloom) are rushing with a gurney (that is, if they are going to care about continuity) so she is still alive at this point. One of the paramedics flew through the window, an there is a dead person covered - the cliffhanger is, is this Helen? Logically, it would be her the dead body, according to the position - the guy who flew out should be in front of the ambulance, not by its side. Since we know logic doesn't play well in this show, I will go with only one of the paramedics died, Bloom will not be seen again, Helen is fine. Time jump to Max getting better from the new treatment that Sharpe devised for him.

Haven't seen the episode but I am reading the book and in it there is much more that explains Bob. There is a lot in the book that explains Bob. Like you said, it does't excuse but it is really fascinating to see the connections between his early years and how he acted as an older man.