BPOX

Somehow I have only ever seen Gorilla Grodd on the Teen Titans or some other animated thing. So he's about as scary to me as Gleek. This preview isn't helping me a lot.

I'm so cynical about super hero shows that keep main characters in the dark forever while grossly endangering them that my initial reaction was he won't tell Liv. Of course he won't tell her, to protect her, they don't really hang anymore, or simply he'll skim over the relevant clues because why would they be important to him. And meanwhile Liv and Ravi are alerting nobody to the zombie outbreak, because... Well, this show has a passably good reason actually. It would put Liv in a lot of danger. But you know what? The plot on this show actually moves at a fair clip. He might well tell Liv or Ravi. But my guess is he'll tell Clive, because Clive doesn't have the info to really do anything with that information yet, and hello, he is a cop.

Yeah I pretty much love Mystery Men... but I just want to say I'm not forgetting Koenig either and his less than cover boy looks and mysterious powers. Thank you AOS for the representation. All the Koenig/ Koenig shippers will be mad at me now. I think mind wiping Ward is pretty hard to defend, which is I guess why it might be a decent idea. Still, I don't see this show doing some sort of Clockwork Orange subplot justice. It would just have to be too focused on Ward, I think in an ensemble piece like this your sympathy would keep getting pulled away.

Larry Niven wrote Man of Steel Woman of Kleenex about Superman and Lois Lane in 1969, 31 years into Clark Kent's and Lois Lane's unconsummated romance. They kept it G rated up until 1980, 41 years of blue balls. Then 17 more years to 1997 when they decided it could happen without taking away his powers. This show should get so lucky.

She didn't act comfortable to me. The way I read the scene she was suspicious then playing along. After she pushes him away and he kisses her again, there is a moment when she maybe seems into it, I grant. Then in the scene where Iris is trying to show the Eddie footage she looks super freaked out to me. Her posture is tense and she is giving him serious side eye most of the scene. Then she isn't really surprised by Wells shooting Barry so much as relieved and says she knew it. Maybe she wasn't sure, but she seemed scared enough to me. Mark 25:05 on the CW website if you want to rewatch and come to your own conclusion.

Lizard lady Sherlock Holmes from a land before time. It doesn't really help to know this. It does help to know she is an ally and felt safe objecting. Unlike Caitlin would. Oh wait, sorry Lizard lady's girlfriend. Ally and safe points still stand.

LOL, seriously where are the shlubbly super heroes? I get that the athletic ones look good because they are athletic, but...

Well, this is a race thing thread. I dare say most of the time not liking shipping is absolutely not a race thing with most people. It's just in the context of saying why the white guys and why not the POC it's not a sufficient explanation of why lead character interracial romances are so rare. I'm not sure there would be significantly less voices arguing against shipping. I tend to think you'd just have more dissenting shippers arguing the contrary. A lot of shipping is about who the shipper finds cute. That includes a lot of factors, but I and Hello Cupid think there are definitely racial patterns in who we'll consider as a romantic partner as well. So if it's not doing it for you for whatever reason, you're more likely to agree with or at least not remark on the sentiment. That said, I do want to add that my foray into Google was enlightening and I feel like Ravi is costumed pretty much like the male version of the sexy librarian right now and instead of taking off the glasses and shaking down the hair we are one shave and a tuxedo or towel scene away from a little more audience enthusiasm. I still like Clive though. When he said he would be good in a zombie apocalypse and wouldn't trust anyone, then later he was skeptical but growing accepting of Liv... Well I just think that would be fun conflict to watch develop as a romance.

I don't think it stops, that is what people do with ships to some extent all the time. It helps a bit if the vibe is there are enough relationships to go around, friends and romantic as opposed to setting up the main character with a harem to chose between. The thing is though that I think with super hero shows come with a strong thread of wish fulfillment inherent in them. This a fantasy of supernatural power, and with that power comes more romantic possibility than the norm. That's part of the appeal.

The way I see it is it is more about exploring the rules of what is considered accepted on TV than some sort of accusation that the writers, producers, or audience are the sort of aggressively bigoted jerks it is easy to label racist. At the risk of becoming repetitive, it seems to me the show is working with themes about widening Liv's tunnel vision. Her before life doesn't seem to include significant POC so far. It might be coincidence, and they may announce that they simply used color blind casting. I doubt they did with Liv herself. The joke that zombies look like super pale goths seems pretty baked in to the premise. I tend toward the thought that Lowell seems attractive right now partially because he seems like a zombified version of the familiar. A way to accept a little change but also have what she feels like she lost. Being white is default normal, being a musician is something that would have been cool and a little edgy but not that uncommon in college. But lets say we got into Clive's world more as time goes on. We don't know his back-story, but the general environment he's in is different. When we talk about police, 25% to 30% have four-year degrees. (yes I linked USA Today, sue me). So Clive's world (if not his origins) is a lot more blue collar that I sense Liv's has been. Ravi is foreign, yes I know British isn't that foreign, but British Asian is it's own dynamic. Anyway, my point is that growing either of these characters in terms of backstory, friends etc has the potential to widen Liv's sphere a bit more. Mind you actually working in a hospital should do so too, and I haven't talked much about Major's work as a social worker which has similar potential. That doesn't say any of these character have to be shipped, but I tend to want to ship the most interesting characters. What do you mean? It makes the most sense to me in a partner show, where the argument is don't cloud the working relationship, people should have lives outside of work and be able to work with folks. Not every interaction should be about sex. There is a context where it's about subverting a trope. I don't get it as much in a more ensemble context with lots of important players. People pair up on TV, and that's part of the fun. Yeah, that seems like it could be a wide ranging topic, but I'm curious what you mean. I'm guessing maybe you are suggesting that you are implying a variety of women on the way to the great white OTP would be fine if Liv were a male?

Everyman would have worked much much better as a short arc villain. Someone lurking in the back of other plot lines, screwing things up as he pursued his own agenda but sort of stepping into the plot. Maybe a small time thief that ran across the rogues or something and tried to get in to steal from them or something.

Absolutely I thought about the same thing. But his coloring looked natural and presumably they had seen each other before. So I think it's just the show playing with us.

Tell us how you really feel. My attitude on the "bad boy" archetype is it's a bit like shows about high school. Presentations of high schools usually aren't realistic, ridiculously exaggerated in fact, but they kind of feel right emotionally. That time is all fraught and caught up with status and identity questions. So your jock prom king in show is ridiculous, but viewers kind of remember worrying about the social totem pole. Well, your drama bad boy is a guy who acts all aggressive but is a bit wounded inside. So getting past some guys exterior and getting to know him but you still feel like he doesn't always treat you right... It feels like something that a lot of women have experienced, just more dramatized. Anyhow, it's not usually my favorite trope either. I tend to go with the long burning friendship stories more, but Logan and Veronica... That was good. To me it was an appropriate for the film noir call back to the ever present femme fatale arc type in the sort of detective stories that show referenced. Then it later it was overdone, but still. I checked Archive of our Own for fan fic, out of curiosity. So far lots of Blaine and lots of Ravi. So for the proto fandom, seems like still an open question yet.

We will no doubt have plenty of characters who are just friends, but it's also clear Liv will have a love life. Why is it so strange to have a preference on which characters this might include? And are you really stating there is not some unstated assumptions on who might be likely in TV land to be in the running? And yes at least one poster thinks there is a history with the show runner in this direction. I am more optimistic myself but would love to see either Clive or Ravi in a ship.

He was totally like an overly enthusiastic puppy with the video game today. It's undermining my assumption that he has to be more evil than he seems since he's so blase about zombies.

I did a quick search on when the actors were born, because I don't think we know in story ages: Buckley - aka Major born 1981 Goodwin- aka Clive born 1982 Kohli - Ravi 1985 McIver - Liv 1988 You're more than welcome to ship who you like to ship, but the gap isn't that bothersome with any of these actors in my book. As a shallow aside, I encourage you and fans seeking eye candy to image search Rahul Kohli. You will not be disappointed.

I thought this was an interesting point, and it made me think about how Catlyn and Linda Park are presented. I understand your concern that Catlyn was set up as a back up love interest, but I notice they didn't make her a wise cracking in your face character either. I wonder if maybe they didn't want to make it too easy and tempting to fall for her character, given comic book fans predictions for the uber back up character. Meanwhile Linda, an Asian character is probably one of the most assertive worldly characters, which is a bit counter to stereotype. Any of them could profit from more development, but eh, could be worse from this perspective. That's a role that's been decades evolving, and as I understand it Caitlyn and Cisco have alternate comic personas of their own that might take them a bit away from Team Flash. So not to dismiss the concern, but I think it's early enough days, and with the Harrison Wells as villain plot line I am optimistic that maybe we can hope for some shifting and resetting of just who team Flash will be. I confess though that they haven't made it very clear to me just what Iris might bring to the super-hero support role, if that were her eventual role on this show too. Maybe moral sounding board could be part of it? They could use one with the jail, and the upcoming question of if to save Barry's mother at the cost to the timeline.

I see a lot of discussions of misogyny in connection to the writing of Iris and how the men treat her, and I follow most of those complaints. They tend to be specific, like Joe stopped 3 career choices, they are denying her her agency, Joe and Eddie talk as if either her father or her husband is in charge. I also see things I tend to view as potentially misogynistic complaints, such as possible exploitation or slut shaming with the clothing choices, concerns that she comes across as a shew if she is angry at Barry or Eddie too long. The idea being that men are allowed to get angry in our culture and it is a sign of strength, on the converse women are allowed sadness but any anger is considered irrational. I like Iris a lot, but sadly, I know that probably doesn't exempt me from unconscious racist thinking at times. At the risk of sounding like the tone police, I'd appreciate more specifics on how the racial presentation is problematic. I suspect a lot of the concerns I see as misogynistic might also be viewed from a racial expectation angle as well.

I'm wondering if what Barry does is illegal? Or thinking about what aspects of what Barry does is illegal, and to what extent helping him would make any one of our long list of secret keepers an accessory. The obvious ones to me are: 1. False imprisonment/ cruel and unusual punishment. Barry doesn't kill, but he does imprison people and they clearly don't have official sanction for this. Cruel and unusual punishment might just apply to folks who are actually authorized to imprison people? 2. Assault. How OK is it to get in knock down drag outs with the bad guys? I get that they usually start it and he doesn't kill them. Some is self defense, might the defending others excuse it? 3. Property damage. He's not terrible about this. Pretty good for a super hero really. 4. Breaking and entering. Searching for that bomb must have been thousands of instances of this. So then, when we have Joe and Eddie helping and they know a lot of this, and they should know what's illegal in Central City even if I don't, to what extent would they be culpable for working with him? Or is there a bunch of judgement call in this like the old fashioned, we're going to let you off on shoplifting if you help this murderer thing. How do you know how much of that is OK? Yeah, I'm aware it's a comic book show and can't even be bothered with the laws of physics. I just was curious what I might learn.

Major isn't friendzoned. Friendzone is a place for people you aren't attracted to, don't really consider at all, except maybe to try to let them down gently. Then maybe they resent it and complain about how blind and shallow you are. Major has been put on the impossible chivalric love pedestal. If only Liv can find the cure for zombie she can be with him. Yeah sure it makes sense to me that she may not still want him in the end, but in the meantime he is the symbol of all she has lost. He may resent being shut out, but he's her ex. He knows something is going on, but he's not sexually invisible. Anyhow, this sort of character tends to stick around a long time, like or not, because OMG tragic love angst. Yeah, after they made a joke of Liv's Asian fetish cover story last week it couldn't have hurt. This seems straight forward to fix. ; ) Um, I'm pretty confused because I don't have all the actors name's memorized, but I think I follow. Put a conventionally hot guy in any role and yeah the audience will expect and argue for a romance. If he's her boss, or a professional relationship, yeah TV does that all the time. Sure it's a conflict, but fiction thrives on conflict. Where I'm a tad confused is you saying, I think, if the guy who plays Major played Clive then he would be the main love object. But that doesn't make sense to me. Clive's role is cop, someone new that Liv only has contact with because she has left her comfortable world. So sure he could be end game, indeed romance among crime fighting partners is an old standard, but the pining thing has got to be the Wonderbread guy. Nobody eats Wonderbread anymore do they? I am sooooo old. Anyhow, the way I see it, the obvious fix for this problem is more gratuitous towel scenes all the way around. In the meantime I am in the it's been 5 episodes wait and see camp really. I'm enjoying both Ravi and Clive so far.

Well it makes perfect sense to me. I'm not passionate about it, and I'm please to just see a diverse cast of interesting characters, but I get it. People used to outlaw interracial dating and it's somewhat bothersome that it still seems taboo or distasteful to enough of the audience that people don't want it on TV. It's one more sign that POC aren't quite considered full fledged people on TV much of the time. Also, it would make some sense for her to choose someone a touch unconventional in some way to go along with the show's theme of Liv's trying to step out of a life of living upto mundane expectations. Oh and I'm a terrible shipper. I want to ship all the ships, so I'm sure I'll go with what I'm offered, but if anyone is asking I'm leaning towards Babs. I like his growing appreciation for Liv. Ravi is too off for me. How can he not be at all bothered by the whole zombie thing?

Agreed. I have three theories here, and I think it's a little of each maybe. The first is that Iris is conflicted about the relationship with Eddie and is unconsciously looking to latch onto something that makes her feel comfortable with breaking up with him. Part of the reason Eddie feel so guilty is the relationship feels so tentative. It would be proof that they were serious if they shared important stuff, it suggests they aren't if they don't. Second, I think she senses that she can manipulate Eddie into telling her, because he does seem to feel so guilty, and that's why she keeps at it. It feels like she's close to convincing him. Third, since he is so uncomfortable she may think it would be better for him to just tell her. So she's badgering Eddie because it would be better for Eddie to have someone he can talk with. Well, thing is Barry is quite comfortable lying to Iris, but not nearly so comfortable lying to Wells. Admittedly the stakes are higher with Wells. What was interesting to me in the Barry Iris scene where she asked if Eddie was cheating, Iris seemed touched that Barry was backing Eddie up. It didn't ultimately seem like she bought his story, but oddly she seemed cool with him concocting the excuse. The writers message, by way of Felicity's explanation and Iris reaction, seems to be something on the order of it's cool to lie if you act confident that it's for the best. In some sense this makes sense to me, I suppose. Back in the day my father worked on engineering the Stealth Bomber, which we didn't know at the time but after the fact. At the time we knew he was working on "the black hole" project and there were jokes about the ridiculous seeming security protocols, but nothing ever seemed too serious. I guess if he had acted distressed, I would have been a lot more interested in and worried about what that project was about.

Lana's aunt disappeared relatively quickly, which was no big deal but I liked her as a minor annoyance. Later we lost Lionel, Bo, and Martha over time. I was seriously bummed to lose Lionel. The the way they wrote Martha off seriously bugged me. I felt like they wanted her house, but wanted her out of it. I feel like the presence of regular characters over 40 helps the world feel more real to me. So on Smallville, I appreciated a more pedestrian back burner plot of the farm finances being in trouble while the plot of the week might be focused on some youth stealing cheerleader. Later Smallville it felt to me like most everyone was between say 20 and 35 and like they would bring in one super hero or villain after another, and love triangle them relentlessly. So to bring it back to topic, one of the big things Harrison does is mentor these guys. Barry has several competing mentors now. But as the show goes on, putting aside the issue of if Harrison is evil or not, the writers probably will have less use for showing Barry's troubled relationship with all his dads. If Barry gets more used to being a hero they probably won't feel they need someone who's patience and emotional distance contrasts with Barry's confusion as much. Joe seems like he's Barry's main dad and Barry's relationship with him could retire comfortably to the background most of the time until needed. Where as I feel like it's an obvious conflict point in the future to have Star Labs to fall under different ownership and have Barry deal with a new boss. So anyhow, Harrison feels to me like he could stay a reoccurring Big Bad, but his days as supportive boss feel numbered.

One thing I've noticed on Arrow and Smallville was they seemed to like the kill off the older interesting characters, often introducing and promoting a flatter but prettier character. I don't know if maybe the younger actors were cheaper, or they just think the audience wants as much pretty soap opera as they can pack in. Anyhow, I've just been assuming from the start of the Flash that we would have to lose Harrison and Joe, probably Barry's dad too. I would love to keep Harrison, but I don't think alternate or redemption arc Harrison would be as fun to watch, so I have no real hopes.

Are you the same person you were when you were four? Fourteen? If you reach eighty four, will you be the same person? What about drunk? Sleepy? Depressed. Are you the same person you are at work, or the person you are alone. Or are you only really you when you are playing Monopoly with your friends? I don't see as it's really that different of a question.