Tatum

Okay I still maintain that Tyler is the cause of his own assholishness, but…that bio doesn’t make her look great.

I really don't think this happened. Mail had to go through her in the beginning, so she was probably letting the lazy duo know that if they wanted Carly's gifts/letters/scrapbooks to get to Carly in time for birthdays or holidays, they had a deadline. Also, a couple times in the series, Tyler and Cate would want to request certain things of B&T, and Dawn would encourage them to write it in a letter instead of calling them, because that would be less of putting B&T on the spot. I don't recall any episode where Dawn hassled them to send scrapbooks or letters when they didn't want to send them

You are absolutely correct. Maybe some stuff happened off camera, but everything that was filmed was above board. I don't see how anyone could actually watch the 16 and Pregnant and think Dawn was not crystal clear and realistic with the two kids. Furthermore, watching S1 and S2 of Teen Mom, Tyler and Cate had a much different attitude towards Carly and the adoption. During the 3rd season, they started to get a lot of attention from fans and then the revisionist history started. Bethany Christian Services has been heavily criticized, and maybe deservedly so, but there is 0 evidence Dawn specifically did anything wrong, and there IS evidence she was very honest with them about Cate and Tyler did hear it and absorb it, and acknowledge it. What did she say? I really don't think Dawn has ever been filmed saying anything dishonest or misleading to them. Tyler and Cate stated on film what they were expecting. They said a phone call, pictures, and possibly an annual visit. Those expectations have been met for years.

I guess I should clarify. Kelly is definitely worse than Heather, but Kelly was humbled on a weekly basis each time she made an ass out of herself. Heather like, metaphorically winks to the audience over how much above these other women she is, like she's laughing at all of them with us, instead of being one of them. She's one of them. She may be more composed, she may be better educated, and she may make better financial and personal decisions, but she's still one of them- an attention starved, fame seeking, drama llama with NO capacity for self awareness. She may act self deprecating at times, but it seems very insincere, and she comes across as oblivious most of the time. ETA: Just watched the Ireland episode...oh my. I love Kelly's call to her husband..."I kept irritating everyone, and when they all asked me politely to stop, I argued with them over why they should not be annoyed. And then when I was called out for shit talking the Alpha HW, I retaliated by saying the absolutely cruelest, malicious low blow I could think to say, and now everyone is mad at me and I have NO idea why!" Kelly is awful, no doubt. I don't think there is any other HW on OC or NY (the ones I watch) that is even close to how awful she is, and THAT is saying something.

I love the comment in the episode thread by a poster that Heather was just salty no one cared that she had been in flipped buggy as well. And you know Kelly just wanted another scapegoat to take the heat off her. And really, what is unreasonable? To not want to drive 48 minutes to visit someone in the hospital who has treated you absolutely terribly and never apologized or acknowledged it (and who, by the way, is completely fine), or to not want to drive 2 hours to see your supposed close friend? Reading through the various episode threads, I'm in the minority clearly, but I absolutely despise Heather. Sure, Tamra, Vicki, and Kelly are assholes, and Meghan is also pretty obnoxious, but Heather has this massive superiority complex that is, in my opinion, completely baffling (that she should feel superior). Yeah, she has money and she doesn't lose her shit on TV as often as the other women. She's still a willing participant on a completely ridiculous show (not saying I am above watching it, but we all know it's ridiculous).

I've started watching this series so I am just now to this season. I can't believe all the harping going on here, and I find it rich to sit in a trailer drinking beer and getting all righteously indignant about someone not driving 48 minutes to see someone in the hospital that they don't even like, when you are 2 hours away and claim to be best friends with the person in the hospital. Does the extra 75 min really make *that* much of a difference? I might have more respect for Heather and Kelly if they had been like, we're leaving now, we don't want Vicki to be alone, can you two please go sit with her until we can get there? Then again, I don't like Heather or Kelly. I don't really like Meghan either, but I think Shannon seems decent. I don't think I would have gone, unless it was couched as a favor to Heather or Kelly. How is it doing any good to visit with someone with whom you have an openly hostile relationship? Should that make Vicki feel better about herself that two people who openly despise her were shamed into coming to visit while the rest of her so called friends continued their party at the dunes? Actually, now that I type that, that would be an awesome thing for Vicki to realize.

I'm torn on this. On the one hand, there is nothing shameful about seeing a gynecologist, and getting the facts from a medical professional about your body and your sexual health should be applauded. I am sure there is a lot of misinformation floating around the schools and also a negative stigma for any young girl who does see a gynecologist- particularly in rural West Virginia. On the other hand, 14-15 is a pretty fraught age and not sure I'd want the responsibility for being the poster child for normalizing frank and honest conversations about sex and sexual health at that age. I am hoping Leah got their blessing to make this a storyline. I mean, it's hardly the first potentially embarrassing thing that's happened since they started filming, but still...

I agree. I am sure he was asked for a comment, and he did say he still felt a connection with her even though they had not been in touch for nearly 30 years. I always find it annoying when someone exaggerates their relationship with someone who has passed away in order to get attention or sympathy.

That's what I thought too. I remember posting (facetiously, but now you never know) that one day Gary may become Amber's landlord.

I watched the clip of the birthday dinner, and think Amber has actually lost whatever minimal self awareness she had. I couldn't bear to watch any more...if I recall from several seasons ago, Amber's mom and brother were all about how awful Gary was and how every time Amber acted poorly, it was really Gary's fault. I wonder if they have seen the error of the ways, or if now it's 15 year old Leah's fault that Amber is such a shithead mother.

I'm sure that's it, but to me, if you start scraping the barrel for more cast members, there really is no distinction between this and the regular Challenge. I wish they would just do a smaller cast instead of resorting to the younger newbies who are part of a completely different era of MTV programming.

I think this whole season was disappointing. I loved the first three, and it seems like now they have devolved into a regular Challenge season. Honestly, Kam, Laurel, and Cara Marie shouldn't even have been invited- I thought the whole point of the All Stars was to pick people from the original seasons of RR and RW, and to pick people (unlike Bananas) who haven't been on like, 9 out of the last 10 seasons of the regular challenge. (I guess S1 and S2 did each have one Fresh Meat person, but it was someone who has been offscreen for awhile both times. S3 had none). While there was some drama each season, part of the fun was the collective maturity of most of the cast members. Certainly no danger of an abundance of maturity on this season.

Not 100% sure, but I believe he is divorced and has two kids with his ex wife. The woman he was purportedly with was a girlfriend, not his ex-wife. I am inclined to believe this, given that if you google All Stars 4 spoilers, there is like a crowd sourced list of 100% accurate spoilers going back months ago, which was based off the scrutiny of all contestants' social media. His profiles have since been scrubbed, but at the time of filming, his posts included the girlfriend. Reportedly, calls were filmed between his girlfriend and him that were not included on the shows. I don't know why his girlfriend was watching his kids instead of his ex-wife and can't vouch for the accuracy in that statement. That said, if true, what a complete jerk, and there is no way Averey didn't know about it.

Well...there is that, especially given the fact that I read (can't remember where) that not only did Adam have an SO when he was on this show, but his SO was watching his kids (she is not their bio mom) so he could do this show.

That's what I was thinking! Leroy's biggest weakness is the swim challenges. As CM pointed out, keeping your word on this show doesn't often work out for you financially, but I am still glad Jay gave it his best shot. I also agree about Averey and Veronica. They've been pretty non offensive this whole challenge. And I am so bored with the Laurel and Nicole story. How many seasons are they going to milk this?