stagmania

One of the witnesses (not sure of his name on this show, but Bodie from The Wire) lied about being alone when he saw Naz with the victim. He had a friend with him. I'm not sure if that's all that meaningful, though; I think his instinct would be to keep his friend out of it since he's weary of the police and it was implied they had drugs on them/weren't in that neighborhood for pure reasons. Could be a red herring. I'm definitely in for this show. Loved the first episode, thought it was beautifully shot and absolutely kept me on the edge of my seat. I wanted to scream at Naz at many points throughout the episode as he kept making terrible choices one right after another.

Thanks for the summary on Jon, @taurusrose. There's a real tendency in discussion of this show (not just on this board, but everywhere) for people to oversimplify and reduce characters to a couple defining traits. With the male Starks, it's noble and stupid, and many people choose to interpret events narrowly so as to stick to that definition of them. With the show's decision to pit Sansa against Jon this season, I've seen a lot more of that directed at him lately, and it rankles. He's never been my favorite character, but I've always been invested in his journey and found his story to be fairly nuanced.

I was just thinking the same-I don't think Jon cares about ruling at all. I could easily see him walking away from it after the WWs are defeated, or at least stepping back and allowing whatever female character he ends up being connected with to take over.

It occurs to me that having Sansa pivot into villainy next season would be the ultimate act of D&D trolling the fandom. Sansa is a divisive character surrounded by fan arguments and disagreement (largely, I think, because she's so inconsistently written on the show and therefore her motivations are wide open to interpretation), and she has a devout fanbase who is always eager to leap to her defense due to the scorn that was (often unfairly) heaped upon her in earlier seasons. Putting her on the wrong side of the next part of the story by having her pursue her own selfish gains to the detriment of the larger goal would really turn that dynamic on its head and create lots of fodder for impassioned fan and critical engagement.

No kidding. Those post-episode interviews were baffling to me. It reminds me of the whole blow up around the altered Cersie/Jamie sex (rape) scene from season 4; the creators seemed to have no clue what they had actually portrayed onscreen. And in this case, viewers can't agree on it either; I've seen so many people say they've gone back to rewatch the scene to get a handle on Sansa's reaction, and they all came to different conclusions. There's deliberate ambiguity, and then there's storytelling so haphazard that the audience has no idea what a main character is thinking or feeling. @Gertrude said it well: the writing for Sansa this season really let her down.

I don't really see how one can claim that Jon "usurped" Sansa, given that he basically told her Winterfell was hers, she was sitting right next to him when the call to name him KitN came (from the people they need to support them, not from Jon), he looked to her for approval as it happened, and she went along with absolutely no protest and even seemed pleased. If one really wants to argue that Sansa should be ruler of the North at this point in the story (a huge stretch that willfully ignores a lot of important context, IMO), that's one thing; trying to frame it as Jon actively betraying her just doesn't hold up.

I think this is a direct result of the sloppiness of the plotting in episode 9. They don't seem to realize how Sansa and Jon came off last week. To go from a battle in which Jon showed himself to be a terrible leader straight to people feverishly declaring him KitN, and in which Sansa appeared to be scheming for control straight to sitting back placidly as everyone overlooked her for her brother, doesn't make a lick of sense. I can only conclude that the writers didn't intend for them to come across the way they did in episode 9. Essentially, they threw their characterizations under the bus for the sake of a "suspenseful" battle scene and hoped we wouldn't notice. Completely agree with this. So much of this plot could've been fixed with just a touch more thoughtful writing.

We've already seen them start to cut major corners, and that's going to have to continue if they're really wrapping all of this up in 13 episodes. I expect that the subtleties of history and unfinished business between characters is mostly going to be glossed over so that the story can keep moving. Especially where Dorne is concerned; nothing about the Ellaria/Sand Snakes plot has really made sense, and I don't expect that to change.

This. There are apparently a lot of people who still don't understand that Jon is a Targaryen after last night's reveal. If they don't put too much emphasis on it, I'm sure some audience members won't even realize they're aunt/nephew, or won't dwell on it enough to be bothered. Given the show's established history of incestuous relationships, the explicit mention of Daenerys preparing for a political marriage, the fact that they're adults who've never met before, their thematic representation of the union of ice and fire...I think this is very likely. And I'm not sure how I feel about that.

I agree; I'm referring more to the fan reaction. There was a lot of enthusiastic praise for her actions last night, despite the show pretty clearly framing it as something that probably shouldn't be celebrated. I'm actually wondering if Bran's return won't be kept quiet. He's the Three-Eyed Raven now, which I think would preclude him from being the heir. And his power would put a target on his back, wouldn't it? There's a reason the previous TER was hiding way up above the wall. I guess we don't actually know that much about how this is supposed to work now that the power has transferred to Bran.

I feel the same way. It seems a lot of people are suddenly cool with burning down a city and condemning a woman to rape and torture as long as a "badass" lady does it. Am I supposed to feel that the (self-induced) trials she endured last season justify this? Because I really, really don't. This is where GoT's particular brand of late-arriving empty feminism is really baffling to me.

I'm really disappointed in how they lost track of her this season. And the big implication that she was playing a long game with the High Sparrow amounted to nothing. It's an unfortunate trend this season-the details of the plot maneuvering and motivations don't really hang together for a lot of the characters, and there's an awful lot of setup that got little or no payoff. I'm happy with where the season left us, but much of what came before it was pretty sloppy. I really love this idea, and I hope you're right. The more I watch this show, the less I understand why anyone would want to sit on the Iron Throne.

I thought that scene was weirdly placed, too. It's like they wanted to hold back all the big moments for eps 9 and 10, and consequently all the fallout had to be shoehorned in directly afterward. Her black dress was really the only indicator in that scene that she was supposed to be in mourning (and served the dual purpose of tying her in with all the other badass ladies in black).

I think they held that piece back intentionally, probably so they can play it as another reveal next season, when Jon will presumably learn the truth.

I couldn't really tell what I was supposed to get from Jamie's look at Cersei; it read pretty ambiguous to me. But I hope we've caught up with the way he feels about her in the books. She cared more about her petty revenge and lording her power over the septa than she did about watching over her son. She killed his wife and blew up half the city in front of him, and didn't think to make sure he was okay. I'm so ready for Cersei's final comeuppance to arrive.

Well, they definitely went out strong. So much great stuff in this episode, so many long awaited payoffs for book readers. And the score was just gorgeous throughout.

Watching the arguments about what Sansa knew and why she kept it a secret go 'round and 'round in circles, with no one ever gaining the upper ground because there is no textual evidence to support any theory above another, pretty much says it all re: the quality of the writing around this plot. Viewers are left to interpret it based on how they feel about Sansa and what they want to believe about her motivations, and the vastly different conclusions that can be drawn are in total opposition to each other, as ably demonstrated by the article @Silje posted. It leaves us with no foothold to understand who we're supposed to think Sansa is at this stage in the story, in what was clearly meant to be a defining moment for her character arc. That's just some textbook bad writing right there. It's possible they can salvage it next week, but every time I've expected them to follow up and clarify a puzzling character moment in the past, I've been let down.

If that scene was supposed to show us Jon dismissing Sansa and giving her a reason to withhold her secret plan as payback (as Sophie Turner implies in that interview), it failed. What I saw was Jon responding when she said she could contribute and inviting her to do so, then her offering a few vague warnings about what kind of person Ramsey is and holding back crucial information. There have been theories about her reasons stated in this forum that are a lot more plausible to me than the idea that she was justified in lying because Jon doesn't respect her. Once again, it seems that the creators are just entirely out of step with the way the story comes across on screen. As for the larger discussion about people's reactions to Sansa, I do agree that she is often held to an unfair standard and subject to harsh judgment from fans. I just don't agree that people's confusion around this particular plot point is part of that trend. Her motivations as shown on screen and stated by the creators simply don't make sense.

Samira Wiley gave an interview to The Hollywood Reporter in which she addressed some of the controversy around Poussey's death and the show's intentions with the storyline. In particular, I think it's notable that Poussey being a POC was part of the point of this story-they were specifically alluding to Black Lives Matter and Eric Garner's death, which wouldn't have worked with a white character. And as has been pointed out by others in this forum, Poussey was really the closest thing the show had to a purely good character who everyone would be devastated to lose, and that definitely informed their decision to center this story around her. I completely understand where some fans are coming from with their feelings of disgust, and I think if you slot her death into the larger pattern of female and specifically WOC and queer deaths on TV this year, it's part of an upsetting trend. But I also think the context of each show matters, and on OitNB, nearly all the important characters are women, most are WOC and many are queer (as are most of the romances on the show), so this is definitely not a case of a token minority being killed off, as it is on many of those other shows.

There's been a definite move this season toward female empowerment, most likely in response to the backlash around treatment of female characters last year, but some of it has felt empty to me. They're playing at rah rah girl power, but they're not being particularly thoughtful about the way these specific female characters would develop and flex their power. With Sansa and Jon, it irritates me that they felt the need to make him an imbecile to prop her up. I think a Sansa who let him in on her plan to bring in allies would be just as powerful and even more rootable. I really hope this is true, because as things stand I don't think we know enough to understand why she did anything. The writers kept us completely in the dark in order to preserve the least surprising surprise of all time, so we have no idea how much information she had at any given point in time, how much contact she had with Littlefinger, how much confidence she had in his willingness to show up, or what her motivations for keeping it to herself may have been. Maybe she had heard nothing from Littlefinger until he miraculously showed up just as the battle was beginning. Maybe she knew exactly where he was and was able to call him in as soon as she realized Jon wasn't going to handle it on his own. Maybe she didn't want to give Jon false hope in case they didn't show. Maybe she was afraid to tell Jon because she didn't trust him to use the additional men well. Maybe this was all a power play to make herself the hero and strengthen her claim as Queen of the North. We simply don't know, so trying to judge her decision-making is a bit fruitless. I don't understand Jon's character arc at all anymore. I thought the entire point of the earlier season efforts to underline how much he didn't know was for him to learn, so that by the time we got to the big show he would have grown into the hero and leader he is clearly meant to be in the narrative. Yet here we are, and he doesn't seem to have learned much of anything. Is there another big narrative subversion coming here, and Jon isn't actually as important as we all thought? Or has the show just failed to develop him properly?

Right, and then the lockdown ended and Poussey's friends gathered together while Soso drank hooch by herself and cried. They mentioned that Suzanne was ostensibly going to find her and invite her to come sit with them, so I'm not trying to say they did anything wrong. I'm just saying it made me sad that Soso's instinct was to be alone because she didn't think she had anyone to be with who would get it.

On the larger discussion about the season: I agree that it got very dark, but I don't really understand why that's off-putting to longtime viewers. Tragedy and trauma has been baked into this story from the very beginning, and I thought they still did a good job of sprinkling a liberal dose of humor throughout for moments of levity. Given the decision last year to pursue the privatization plot and the myriad consequences of that change, keeping things light and easy wouldn't have been true to the story they wanted to tell. This show reflects so many of the biggest issues going in our real world context right now, and has a strong point of view about social justice and the moral complexity inherent in those issues. I think it's an important and valuable contribution to the discussion.

I felt the absence of this relationship so much, and I do think it weakened Taystee's reaction to her death a bit. Poussey spent most of her time with Soso and just didn't seem that connected to anyone else this season. Understandable given her fresh romance, but a little disappointing. Which reminds me, I was sad that Soso was off mourning by herself rather than with Poussey's friends. She was made to feel so unwelcome, she didn't even try to seek comfort with them.

I don't know, I think even that is giving them too much credit. I really doubt all of these gaps in plot and character motivations are intentional trolling; I think it's mostly just carelessness. This frustrates me to no end; I don't understand why Jon seems so dumbed down lately. Is this supposed to be related to some change in him post-resurrection? I think a big part of the reason this whole battle for Winterfell plot has fallen flat for me is because I can't get a handle on Jon or Sansa. What are their true motivations? How are they actually feeling about reclaiming their home, and about each other? What comes next now that they've taken Winterfell back? None of it is clear and it prevents me from feeling emotionally connected to any of it.

My issue with this is that I don't think it's intentional characterization on the part of the show that all the Starks are idiots. It seems to be more a result of sloppy writing to move the plot where they want to. Arya wandering around Braavos unprotected, Sansa hiding key information from Jon, and Jon being a terrible commander all seem like obvious plot machinations in order to engineer big surprises and action sequences. It doesn't ring true to their characters, and if it's supposed to it's not adequately set up or explained, which is why we've spent the last several weeks trying to fanwank why the hell they're all behaving this way. And this is what it all comes down to, IMO. The writing on this show is just not on the level I wish it was, and what we see on the screen is what we get, even if it doesn't make sense. They're clearly far more interested in spectacle, which is fine. The character arcs and plot twists may not hold up to scrutiny, but the show is always beautiful to look at, and some of the technical achievements are truly remarkable. I just hope they're able hold it all together enough to end the series in a way that rings true.