alrightokay

I thought the acting was excellent, again, but I felt so let down by the ending. Moffat had a tantalizing idea about friends and enemies actually being hybrids (friends inside enemies/enemies inside friends), a nice way to connect the Doctor/Master, Doctor/Davros, and Doctor/Clara in the Dalek relationships. But the ending was so silly (the sewer Daleks revolt?). I thought the episode was going to build up to something really thought-provoking, but it ended with sonic sunglasses. (BTW, it wasn't clear how the Doctor detached the Dalek nodes from Clara's temples; are there going to be long-terms consequences for her?) I actually liked Part 1 better than Part 2 here. I did like the line about the only other chair in Skaro, though.

(Just catching up in this thread.) YES! I think that's why MotOE was my favorite episode from S8; it felt here like the Doctor had finally settled in and could just be himself: curious, quirky, engaged with others (such as when he meets Perkins), but still ruthless in his methods of figuring out/solving the problem presented. I loved the scene on the beach at the end, where the Doctor morbidly jokes that he only saved Clara and let everyone else on the train die, but then, after Clara says that he was only pretending to be heartless, he says, "Would you like to think that about me? Would that make it easier?" It seems like that's how some people want to see him, as just heartless and cruel, to simplify his behavior. But he later says, "Sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones. But you still have to choose"--that's what he does, he makes the tough choices, and if some of those choices make him seem like a jerk, then so be it. I do get that all of the unpleasant comments in other episodes about Clara's looks, Danny, etc. were separate from those moments when he had to make tough choices. I agree that those comments were unnecessary and hurtful; but I got the feeling that Moffat/the writers were trying to distinguish Twelve from Eleven, who gushed a little too much about Clara/humans at times. Now that Twelve has been established, hopefully we'll get fewer of those comments (and they did seem to decrease as S8 went on). My other favorite episodes from S8--"Listen," "Flatline," and "Last Christmas" were also ones in which the Doctor's characterization felt "right." And so far, I'm really enjoying Twelve/Capaldi in S9.

That was me--yes, in the middle of the episode, the Doctor remembers back to abandoning the child, but I wonder if that's all a misdirect, to make us think he left. I'm with you on the theory that the Doctor is lying all throughout this episode, putting on an act that Clara and Missy are both aware of.

I just realized that this episode has a lot in common with "Listen" from last year, where Clara meets the child-Doctor and inadvertently shapes him into what he is now (and even grabs him by the ankle, the way the hand-mine might grab young Davros' ankle). In "Listen," Clara was supposed to be seen as a positive influence on the child-Doctor, but here, the Doctor is implied to have had a negative influence on young Davros. I thought, though, that his "1 in a thousand chance to survive, focus on the 1" speech was actually really inspiring; and the fact that he left young Davros with the sonic screwdriver meant that he didn't leave the child totally helpless. Also, we didn't see what he actually did after hearing Davros' name--the credits start up right after that. Maybe I'm just having a hard time seeing the Doctor as someone who would just abandon a child on a battlefield, even if it's Davros. Clara said in "Listen" that fear doesn't have to make you cruel or cowardly, so I don't see the Doctor acting cruel or cowardly here. I know the cliffhanger makes it seem like the Doctor goes back to "undo" what he did the first time on the battlefield, but I hope that somewhere in Part 2, we'll see what actually happened the first time, thus putting all of the Doctor/Old Davros' conversations in a new light. (I also wonder if there are any connections to make to "Into the Dalek," where the Doctor sees that he's not that different from the Daleks in his capacity for hatred--"You would have made a good Dalek."--thus causing him to have the very compassion for Davros/the Daleks that Davros is critiquing. Then again, I'm thinking too hard about this--despite his love of callbacks, Moffat isn't known for keeping his characters consistent!)

I really enjoyed it, especially the acting by Capaldi, Gomez, and Bleach (Davros). Some favorite parts: Davros' line about the Doctor's new face looking like his--there's something poignant about that. Missy's whole speech to Clara about her complex relationship with the Doctor and how their friendship is deeper than anything humans experience. When Clara tries to bolster the Doctor's spirit as he leaves to see Davros, the Doctor's face goes through so many emotions. I got the feeling he wasn't just sad/ashamed there. Clara just said something about how the Doctor had been lying all along, and it seemed like the he was pleased Clara realized that--like she was onto something that would help them get out of this mess. I'm not explaining it very well, but that moment seemed like more than just a throwaway. I liked the guitar part because Capaldi looked like he was having so much fun (I didn't need the "Dude" part, though). All in all, a great opener; I can't wait for next week!

Well, just watched "The Magician's Apprentice"... there goes the hope that Bors could be a companion!

I liked "The Doctor's Meditation," too. Bors would make a great companion: supportive, inquisitive, open-minded. I'd love for Twelve to have a male companion after Clara and create a new dynamic in the TARDIS.

Ohhh, that's nice--it circles back to how Twelve asked Clara in "Deep Breath" to "Please ... just see me."

RATGIRLAGOGO, ON 29 DEC 2014 - 6:08 PM, SAID: (Brought over from the "Last Christmas" Thread.) I've loved Twelve/Capaldi since the beginning as well, but I do feel like the show is beginning to acknowledge his attractiveness. Ever since "Mummy on the Orient Express," when he looked so great in the tux, I feel like the show has "softened" his look up, if that makes sense. I thought his original "magician" look was too buttoned-up/severe, and I've liked the "mixed-up" outfits more, whether with the hole-y sweater, the darker shirts, or the hoodie. They just seem fresher and edgier. (I know Capaldi himself helped to pick out the magician-look, but it seems like the hole-y sweater and the hoodie--and the longer hair-- "fit" Twelve's edgier personality better.) ETA: I just realized that I said that the show has "softened" his look AND allowed him to wear "edgier" clothes, which sounds contradictory! I guess what I meant is that Twelve's magician costume felt too stiff, like he wasn't comfortable in it. But with the mixed-up outfits, Twelve seemed more comfortable, more like "himself," which allowed more confidence/swagger to come through. (The only outfit I really didn't like was the shirt with the big white polka-dots.) Okay, on to less shallow issues!

Taking my response to this to the Twelve Thread.

Nick Frost was fantastic, really funny; he and Capaldi sparked off each other nicely. I also liked the actors playing the scientists at the base, especially Ashley and Shona. The plot was a bit too similar to Inception, but all in all, it was one of the better Christmas Specials. My only frustration has to do with the ending

I don't think that he's defining himself completely by calling himself an "idiot." He also says that he's "passing through, trying to help" and he's "learning." If he's truly an idiot, he wouldn't learn. I think your point about him being "all of those other things" is true--but he doesn't want any of those things (good man, bad man, hero, president) to become a static label. He can be all of those things, at different moments, but not always. I thought it was interesting that Kate Stewart introduces herself as "Divorcée, mother of two, keen gardener, outstanding bridge player. Also chief scientific officer, Unified Intelligence Taskforce - who currently have you surrounded.” Like the Doctor, she isn't just "one thing"--she's many things at once, and she wants to be understood that way. Maybe Twelve is understanding that about himself, and hopefully this self-acceptance will free him now, in S9, to be more open with others and to have more fun.

The Christmas Specials have been a mixed bag for me, but I'm excited to see Nick Frost. As a huge Spaced fan, I'm thrilled that Frost, Simon Pegg, and Jessica Hynes have now all worked on Doctor Who. All I need is for Edgar Wright to write/direct an episode (actually, I could see Wright and Capaldi having a similar sense of humor--Capaldi's "Franz Kafka's It's Wonderful Life" has some of the same absurd dark humor as Wright's movies).

I know some people will hate it, but I loved it. Loved it deeply. Yes, it was emotionally manipulative, but I fell for all of it. Especially the Doctor and Clara's final scene, intercut with the Doctor's reaction to what he finds at the coordinates he was given. That was devastating. I even felt for Missy at the end, and I hope she comes back somehow. I'm glad that all of the "soldier"/"good man" discussion from this series got addressed in this episode; again, as maudlin as Danny's ending was, it wrapped up his storyline well. And I'm glad that all of the "Clara = the Doctor" hints were laid to rest. Twelve IS the Doctor and, as he said, he's learning. This whole series was about Twelve settling into his own skin but also about the Doctor being humbled in ways he's never been before. After all of the "Lonely God" and "Defender of Trenzalore" mightiness of Ten and Eleven, he's learning that he can be an "idiot" at times (he's used that word a lot this series, most recently, about himself). That doesn't mean we should think less of him; it means that HE shouldn't think so highly of himself, and that's a good development, I think. And I've said this so many times, but I love Capaldi so much. He's just wonderful.

I liked this overall, although the Missy/Master reveal felt a little too obvious. I loved Capaldi all through this episode, especially during the key-throwing scene and when he said the line, "Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference?" Questions: Why does Clara have all of those post-its on her shelves--why does she have to keep track of the events from her recent adventures? Does it have something to do with Missy having "chosen" her (was she reporting on the events to Missy)? Why does she tell Danny that he's the last person she'll say "I love you" to? Right before the Doctor puts her hands into the Tardis-telepathic interface, Clara says, "I don't deserve a friend like you." Does this mean she knows she's doing Missy's bidding by bringing him to the Nethersphere? I really hope there's a scene between Twelve and Seb next week....

This episode could have been good--I wish that it had focused more on the fairy-tale thread and less on the clunky pro-environment message. I actually liked how Twelve interacted with the kids, and it would have been interesting to see the Doctor as a pseudo-"Big Bad Wolf" to Maebh's "Little Red Riding Hood." (I thought it was funny how Twelve referred to a "strangely compelling masculine figure" in talking about fairy tales with Clara.) If that couldn't have happened, then I wish that the writer had made better use of the Blake poem that the episode title comes from, which is about the loss of innocence ("The Tyger" comes from the collection Songs of Experience). The Doctor himself could be seen as "The Tyger"--this fantastic being who is powerful, and fierce, and awe-inspiring ("Tyger Tyger, burning bright,/ In the forests of the night;/ What immortal hand or eye,/ Could frame thy fearful symmetry?"). The Tyger can be cruel but it's also beautiful. The poem kind of reminds me of what Latimer said about the Doctor in "Family of Blood" back in S3: "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun.... He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and can see the turn of the universe.... and... he's wonderful." I'm not sure what kind of story they could have built around the poem, but having the kids come out of the forest--and their time with the Doctor--a little wiser would have been nice.

These excellent points make me think that Moffat is consciously using Clara to go the opposite way of RTD when it comes to the Companion-Doctor dynamic. Rose: falls in love with the Doctor and gives up her home-life to be with him--Clara: (after the change to Twelve) firmly not in love with the Doctor and wants to keep her home-life intact. Martha: in love with the Doctor but can walk away from him when she realizes he's bad for her--Clara: can't walk away from the Doctor (By the way, Clara taking the phone call from Danny reminded me of how Martha had to take calls from her mom in "42." In both cases, the loved one at home didn't approve of the Companion's relationship with the Doctor.) Donna: is unable to remain Doctor-Donna; being the Doctor almost kills her--Clara: breezily handles the Doctor role (granted she doesn't have a TimeLord's consciousness inside her). It'll be interesting to see how Moffat wraps up Clara's time with the Doctor--I hope he does it in a way that doesn't cheapen all the sacrifices former Companions had to make.

I feel like the theme is more "learning what it's like to be the Doctor" and realizing how hard it is. The line, "You were an exceptional Doctor. Goodness had nothing to do with it," implied that Clara still doesn't understand the difficult moral and spiritual costs of being the Doctor. She thinks everything's fine because "on balance," way more people lived than died. But when someone as hateful as Fenton gets to live, it's hard to celebrate defeating "the monster." There are still so many monsters left, and the Doctor can't vanquish them all. I sort of wish that "Kill the Moon" had come after "Flatline" and had ended differently. In KTM, Clara judged the Doctor for abandoning her and forcing her to make the decision whether to destroy the moon-egg. If KTM had come after "Flatline," perhaps Clara, having learned from "being the Doctor" once, would have understood the Doctor's reasoning better and would not have been so angry at him. She would have understood that this is what the Doctor does all the time: make impossible decisions and then have to live with them. She would have seen why it was a sign of respect that the Doctor let her make the moon decision, and she would have been grateful that her decision didn't end in any more deaths. She would have had a deeper appreciation for what the Doctor's been through and what he still goes through: wanting to save everyone but knowing he can't. I realize that such an ending to KTM would throw a wrench in the writers' apparent plan to create conflict between the Doctor and Clara, but I think it would have been a more satisfying way to develop both characters. Back to "Flatine"--I loved the visuals in this episode. The neurons, the skin graft, and the stretched face on the walls were all intriguing works of art. And I thought the mural of victims showing only their backs was a poignant way to show the facelessness of crime victims in poorer areas. Some of the dialogue felt a little "off" to me, but now that I think about it, it seems like Clara was trying to be the Doctor as Eleven. Some of her lines felt so flippant and cheerful at times (such as in the whole hairband scene), they reminded me a lot of Eleven. Perhaps that's another reason Twelve wasn't thrilled with Clara's impersonation of him--as he said back at the end of "Deep Breath," she still doesn't see the Doctor as HIM.

I loved this episode. So many great lines, well acted by everyone, including the guest actors. One delightful tidbit: Captain Quell was played by David Bamber, Mr. Collins from the Colin Firth-Jennifer Ehle version of Pride and Prejudice.

It's making me sad that there's so much negativity about Twelve and Capaldi. I think he's a fabulous Doctor: funny, intelligent, and yes, impatient and prickly; but deep down, he's determined to do the right thing. As Clara said, he's trying to be a good man, and that's the point. Maybe fighting on Trenzalore for so long forced him to back into his "Lonely God" role for so long that he's come out of that experience unable to relate to others as well as he did when he felt like he was part of a "team" with Amy, Rory, and River. Maybe the anger and emotional distance we're seeing now is the cost of his being a "hero" for so long. But he hasn't lost his desire to help others--we saw it in his "superpower" speech to Rupert. And in his working with Maid Marian to help the peasants overthrow the robots in Sherwood. And when he fought with Half-Face Man, saying that he would do anything to save the humans on the ground below. He's having trouble connecting with people, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't care about them.