Colorful Mess

Christ, then the whole 10 min Sam scene was again wheel spinning when we only have 13 episodes left. I thought he was going to find out something about Azor Ahai, or the children of the forest, or the Long Night, or why magic has increased, or even why the seasons are so wonky. He could find that info AND tell Jon "Hey I found out why our winters suck so hard, which is what fans have been wondering about for 20 years! Also - just remembered - Stannis says there is dragon glass at Dragonstone." Maybe these dumb scenes continue because D&D were forever scarred and hurt by their pilot. Their friend-watcher didn't even know that Jaime and Cersei were related. So now everything has to be told at a pre-kindergarten level for the audience. Case in point: Jon telling Sansa in this ep "You're my sister but I'm king now..." Well, no shit Jon. Instead of dialogue where we see him emotionally wrestling with his new promotion (because that is once again, a BIG freaking change in his life) we have characters telling not showing, and what they're telling us isnt even revealing about their internal states. Instead we have to have this artificial Jon/Sansa tension (for what purpose? I dont even know).

I give this ep a 7/10. My husband went even lower, a 6/10. We both thought it a typical talky GoT ep that jumped around and still felt like there were a TON of characters and places even after so many deaths. And, annoyingly, we're back to plot dictating character decisions too (i.e. SAM NEEDS TO TELL JON STUFF, THEREFORE SAM IS DETERMINED TO GAIN ACCESS TO EXCLUSIVE CONTENT!). TYPICAL of this show, I know but it still grates. Actually liked the Sam scenes and the montage was hilarious - hubby and I are both academics and could relate (at least metaphorically) to doing dirty work to level up in the ivory tower. The monotony is real. Did anyone think it was weird how quickly those Karstark kids whipped out their swords to swear fealty to Jon? Does every kid of a minor house in Westeros get lessons in how its done? I thought it would be been a bit more realistic if someone had to nudge them to remind them what to do. I mean, Sansa who is supposedly the expert on courtly manners, couldn't even remember the oath of fealty for Brienne last season. Euron's use of the word "nation" felt anachronistic to me. No one has used that term in-show before, and I dont think we're at the point where Westeros is a nation-state yet (sorry, I'm a stickler for accurate political terms!!) Also that Dany scene at the end totally should have been the last scene of Season 6. Just sayin'. My favorite scene of the night was Tormund's gloating about manning castles on the Wall and everyone of the Lords looking irritated as heck.

The fact that Kit got an supporting actor nom means that other people thought he had a pretty meaty storyline this year. However, I do think they shortchanged Jon's intelligence in translation. He's actually quite sassy in the books and seems to want to show off how smart he is. He thinks people who resist his way of thinking are idiots. He does wrestle internally with stuff, but BookJon is less silent and reserved than played on the show. D&D seem to think of Jon as just good with a sword. We saw almost none of his administrative abilities and player moves at the Wall. I really wanted him to convince the Northern Lords about the White Walkers in episode 10. Instead he just says one cryptic line and then sits silently while they discuss amongst each other until Lyanna Mormont has to jump in to save him. Ugh.

Also Rheagar was so obsessed with that damn prophecy, I doubt he would have risked his chance to fulfill it by accidentally siring an illegitimate son. The prophecy doesn't say the "bastard who was promised." He has to be an actual prince. It would be interesting if he had a Septon marry them in a Vegas style wedding - and if that Septon emerges somewhere in the story later on.

Maybe they aren't making a big deal about it because this is the first of many resurrections to come? Maybe he dies and comes back over and over again during the final battle? Like Alister said, he'll be fighting their battles forever. I think once he gets revived and comes back multiple times, like Beric did, then that's when people will start talking and paying attention. Just speculating here. (Btw, a meeting between Beric and Jon is one of my top five anticipated encounters). Right now his resurrection seems like a one off event that, when told by other people, could be easily dismissed. All of the people who killed him are dead and the Northerners aren't going to trust some fantastical story from the wildlings. Maybe if Melisandre were there with them when they visit the smaller houses, she could have "marketed" his resurrection a bit better. But the Northerners could be very distrustful of her too. Still, I think she has a larger role to play, by spreading the word all over Westeros about Jon.

Gertrude, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying, I wish I could just turn off my brain sometimes when watching this show. Your post reminds me of A.O. Scott's dual approach to film criticism: on one level we can watch the show skeptically, demanding intellectual honesty as a necessary defense against Hollywood who serves us crap and tells us how great it is. The second is pure escapist joy, allowing the fantasy to pull us in. After Episode 10 I turned to my husband and practically screamed, "Can you BELIEVE that we're ACTUALLY watching the BEST EPIC FANTASY adaptation ever put to screen? WHAT A TIME TO BE ALIVE." I'm still dumbstruck that I'm watching this calibre of genre fiction on TV, that its insanely popular, and that my nerdy obsession has taken over the world. That's the escapist side of the show that I love. So when I'm watching, I'm all in...but in order to sustain that high, I come on these boards and see how others react and also try to KILL SOME FUCKING TIME until the next episode/book by picking apart everything. I think I kind of ruin it for myself, because I don't think D&D are serving us crap, like some dumb Hollywood action movie. That said, they don't seem to have the same really really high standards for this show as some of the book fans. Or they streamline things so much, to make it easier to adapt, while losing the "soul" in the process. Maybe they made a deal with the Night's King to get this show on screen. Regardless, I think its understandable to be mad at the plot holes and unearned achievements to get to the big dazzling spectacle. But the dazzle...omg its so good.

This post is amazing. It makes me think that, in revealing that R+L=J, Jon will get "everything he wants, in the worst possible way" (Jane Espenson's rules on good fiction writing). He'll probably get titles, titles, titles, approval, admiration, from all directions - when all he wants is to be Ned's son. Another great insight (ya'll are seriously on point tonight!). Sansa is just as naive as him starting off, but he grows out of it faster. I think in the show, it's reversed. But why give interesting dialogue and complex plotting to the other characters and just let Kit swing a sword? I really don't get it. Are they so devoted to the "who run the world girls" theme that they can't give the LEAST misogynistic male in the series some awesome character development? Me toooooo OMG, I'd rather have this than Sansa off him. I can see LF scurrying around Winterfell in fear for his life as a white walker pursues him. What a pretty picture!! I didnt even think about her fear of Jon usurping Winterfell. This is rarely brought up in discussions about Cat/Ned/Jon. I had to watch her big confession scene from Season 3 Episode 2 again, to see if she mentioned this as a rationale. She actually says she hated Jon because she was jealous of his mother...haha. Oh, she also says "Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he would live. But it would be a very long night..." Jon Snow's Long Night...confirmed.

For me, the entire point of Jon's character is that he becomes king because he's one of the few who earned the title through deeds and leading by example - not psychological games, sinister machinations, or brute force. He leads people and inspires them when all hope is lost. In the books his ideas are so far ahead of everyone else that he loses sight of the smaller picture, to his detriment (classic tragic hero complex). In the show, weirdly, he gets declared king through rhetorical flourishes. Jon didn't lead people through a difficult situation; he simply personally fulfilled his vendetta against Ramsay. Few of the Northern lords helped, so to overcome THEIR shame, cowardice, and feebleness, and to renew their traditional fealty to House Stark, they mollify their embarrassment by declaring a king. But was it Jon himself or just some Stark figurehead they liked? To me it seems less about HIM and his personal qualities of leadership, and more about THEIR emotional management of the situation. I was not fully convinced that the show runners laid the ground work for Jon earning this and it drives me insane.

Yeah, the show runners have a bad track record of developing convincing romances. But I'm not convinced GRRM has done that well either. I think sometimes the "romantic" moments are blurred by obsession and fetishization, especially between Sandor and Sansa. He enters her room drunk, and threatens to kill her with a knife? Uh, what? Do you really think TV audiences would find that "romantic"? Sansa is sexualized right away, at age 11 - (or, before her period in the show universe). I dont care about "medieval age norms," what she's been through is creepy and traumatic for someone so young. If they ignore their relationship for Sansa's endgame, I'm 100% on board with that.

I've been thinking a lot about the Long Night too, and how it will play out in Season 8. I do think there will be some kind of HUGE, awful, final choice Jon will have to make. I think the key to unlocking this plot point is Maester Aemon's words to Jon in Season 1 (book quote): "What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms ... or the memory of a brothers smile? ... We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy." Your spec probably isn't so far fetched...Jon will have to do something pretty agonizing for us as viewers, but also detestable to him as an honorable person. I really do think the Nissa Nissa prophecy will come to pass...he's going to have to kill someone he loves to save the world (ignite Lightbringer). And that person is someone whom he's had more screen more than anyone else at this point: Sansa. So I think Jon will have to decide between saving Sansa vs. saving the world. It would be MOST interesting to me if he refused to kill her and acts just like he did at the BoB, putting everyone at risk to save his family. That, or he makes some insane compromise and becomes the new Night King. There has gotta be some big sacrifice coming and it's not just going to be "Jon fights the Night's king, wins easily, peace comes to the realm."

YES Jon needs more love, in the show and on the boards! He's been my favorite since the beginning. I love characters who are deep thinkers...that's so Jon. He's the existentialist of the series. I still can't get over how amazing his story arc has been so far, especially if you look at how f'ing hard he's worked. Tirelessly focused on a goal that's larger than himself, fighting for the realm and his family. He really is the workhorse of the series. Nobody gets shit done like Jon. Perhaps he seems to accomplish more than he actually does because there's so much hopelessness in his life at the Wall. I also love how his outsider/insider status has made him incredibly perceptive but at the same time pragmatic. I was cheering for him so hard in the finale, yet also worried for him. That King in the North title is scary, ya'll. I'm also eager to see how he takes the news about his mom and pops. In addition to the shock that Ned isn't his dad, there might be another shock that he's not a bastard (if in fact they were married). I'm sure GRRM would gleefully choose the option that destroys Jon the most; so which is worse, learning that you're a bastard by a different father or learning that you could have lived your whole life as a legitimate heir? Jon will probably have to deal with both. As for what Jon wants - this question is sadly something they haven't conveyed very well on the show. In the show he seems to alternate between *sulky brooding* and *brave warrior* but his real thoughts are of course hard to convey on screen. Thanks to Lady S for those book passages. Reading them it seems like he wants - Instead, Jon has lived his whole life in limbo and worked his ass off to figure out where he stands. He's been privileged and oppressed at multiple turning points and self-reflective enough to acknowledge when others are in the same situation. So...for me, this is a breath of fresh air in the GoT universe, even if he does have some Stu traits - cool sword, direwolf, troubled backstory, resurrection, yadda yadda who cares. A character like Jon is NEEDED, for us as viewers.

Heck yes, a bootcamp, like shadow the Night's Watch for a few weeks! I'd also add to Jon's to-do list: 1. Issue a decree that everyone in the North burn their dead (I think someone mentioned this upthread) 2. Start finding ways to mass manufacture dragon glass swords and arrows (Dany!) and train people to use them 3. Purge the North of all political players who distract from the greater goal (Littlefinger's gotta go) 4. Run some experiments on wights - In the books Jon intentionally locked up some dead wildlings and left them unburned. He did this because he wanted to study the process of zombiefication to understand the enemy better. 5. Secure supplies for food and housing for refugees who will no doubt be moving southwards. 6. Reinforce Winterfell so they can at least "give the fuckers a fight." 7. Get a small council together - especially Sam and Bran in the same room - to exchange knowledge and lore about the threat 8. Lastly, make sure that people NEVER NEVER NEVER become complacent and assume the Wall will stand. Assume the WW will get over it at some point. As I made this list, I realize he'll be doing pretty much what he was doing anyways as Lord Commander, just with more authority and reach than before as KitN. Let's hope he doesn't get stabbed for it (again) because people think he's destroying their precious institutions.

I think D&D are deliberately muting public recognition of Sansa's contributions on purpose, to throw her into one last conflict, which will be a cold war over succession. In this interview Gillen (interpreting his character) sees significance in the hints LF has dropped about the rebellion. Gillen thinks it suggests that LF knows Jon isn't Ned's son (how he knows this I have no idea). This would fit with the line he says to her in the Godswood, "You, my love, are the future of House Stark." He seems to be pushing Sansa toward public power while he retains power over her in private. I'm sure he would love to have Jon's troops too... so maybe he's plotting to take over Winterfell and gain another piece on the board.

Is it possible to be both a hero and a failure? I think the show is asking us to consider this, in light of the theme of the Starks, aka "quick tempers, slow minds." Maybe Jon is different in that he constantly fails upward, and gets rewarded after each loss. Davos' line to Jon: "good that you failed...go ahead and fail again" seems to be his modus operandi now? Also I'm wondering if Sansa withheld info about the Vale on purpose, sacrificing her own troops for an ambush? Is this why Ramsay said "You're part of me now," because they both killed their own men for a coupe de grace?

dying to hear about an air date for S3. Heard any rumors?

Shocked that Claire enjoyed the first go. It looked accurate for a male virgin, but really, she liked the stabbing and the crushing? I wondered if she being truthful or just making him feel better. So many women could identify with that kind of sex - it may get you bothered but it doesnt get you OFF. Well, at least the undressing scene was hot - nice foreplay. I'm not a book reader but I thought for sure that Claire was going to teach Jaime about her magic button. I'm so over vaginal orgasms on TV. 75% of women don't have them. I wanted them to show him learning how to do her oral or masturbate her. Would have been way hotter.