SwordQueen

That's part of what confused me -- why would Brandi put that out there about Chad? Did she not understand the implication that Kim getting naked wasted at a bar like it was her 21st birthday and running from the cops, the day her son was released from the hospital, would look like a low down dirty monkey with a wig on, to the public? That didn't do anything to exonerate Kim from responsibility, like, at all. She really needs to get herself a dictionary, doesn't she?

My favorite was The Boss! I mean, of course, Eileen (Springsteen, who?).

I'm so confused on this thing with Chad -- was he actually admitted to a hospital and did he get out yesterday? There's a lot to hate on Kim for but I want to make sure I'm doing it for the right reasons. lol It might have more to do with her being white than anything else, although her being a woman and a "celebrity" definitely plays into that. A boyfriend of mine was looking at 3-5 -- years not months -- for possession and he got off completely (I sure know how to pick em lol). His lawyer even said that he was lucky that he white because that saved his ass.

I would gladly be your BFF and hide in the bushes and stalk someone with you, Lnmop! That is what BFFs do, right? People, I think, are generally well-meaning about these things -- generally. Well meaning but annoying. ; - ) It's hard for some to understand how truly complicated relationships with toxic people are, on all levels. There's such a push/pull aspect to them and it's exhausting. It's easy to lose your temper and your mind over these matters, too, and wind up looking like an emotional basketcase or an unfeeling jerk. Kathy confuses me a bit. I don't know very much about her (other than that she's Paris' mom, and frankly that's all I've wanted to know). But in looking at Kyle and Kim's dynamic, Kathy seems so far removed from them. Where both Kyle and Kim are ... um... passionate ... within their relationship with each other, Kathy does seem like her emotions maybe don't run as deep? I don't know. The limits you mention reminds me of that push/pull thing that some people do. The testing. She needs/wants Kyle but resents her intrusion and seemingly perfect life compared to hers, all at the same time, and she knows that Kyle will always come back around, so she can push her away without really fearing the consequences. I wonder if she treated Kathy in the same manner and slandered her name all over TV, if Kathy would be so forgiving.

Aww, I'm sorry blueeyed. Even though I do truly believe her to be a Narcissist, I also hope that she really does love those kids, as themselves, and will realize how much she could stand to lose by her own behaviors. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. ; - ) She's a raisin cookie, and those are just the worst kinda cookie.

Maybe it's all semantics, I dunno, but for me, there's a difference between understanding the reason or causation for something and using that reason/causation to excuse any responsibility you have towards yourself and your actions. And then at the same time, being able to own our subsequent actions doesn't mean we can't still hold some kind of feeling towards those that were the cause/trigger. Things are never that black and white. Kim and Kyle may be able to trace their feelings about themselves and some of their behaviors back to their childhood and more specifically to their mother. In doing that, they learn more about who they are and how they show themselves to the world. In doing that, they can learn that they are now, currently, in control of most aspects of their lives and set about changing what needs to be changed. But those things don't mean that how they effect each other or how their mother treated them no longer matters or holds any power over them. I'm probably not making any freaking sense, because I'm writing this while trying to dry my dog off from her bath, and it looks like I'm sucking at both things right now. lol

Oh, I know you already know these things, Lotus! You're no RumRaisin. ; - ) You know, I feel like whatever we suggest for Kim is just way beyond her abilities, now or ever. Most of us here have been through a lot of shit, and because of the successes and failures that have come from it, we understand the hard work it takes to accomplish our goals. We also know that we can't always do it alone. But I honestly don't know what it will take for Kim to get to that place because she has always been carried and rescued. She does need to feel some consequences from her actions but I'm not sure that's even going to make a difference. This is why I have to give up supporting her and thinking that she's sincere in her desires to "love her life". Same with Brandi, I don't know where to begin because there's like zero desire for change and growth. There's no helping or supporting someone like that, unfortunately.

I actually hope that this isn't true. If it's true, then, well I don't even know what. But it's bad.

I agree with both sides regarding whether or not Kim needs to feel ready or whether she needs a good push because she'll never be ready. So complicated, these issues are and hard to determine what is helpful and what is not when it comes to supporting someone. Do you let them drown or do you pull them out of the water whether they want to be rescued or not? I know I've resented being forcibly "help" before, but also, I know there were times I needed it, and then there were times that I needed to do my own thing and help myself. Never an easy situation. LotusFlower, daily goals are wonderful things. But Kim needs to be in therapy, at least, for that to work. She needs not only the guidance but the tools to know what reasonable goals should be and how to go about achieving them. Bottom line, she needs professional help. Not a snark, but a truth.

Her kids. How about her kids? eta: I'd think she'd want to be alive for them -- maybe to be a grandparent.

Discussing issues like this is so hard, I think, when there are so many varying mindsets on family and what that means. It isn't that - for those of us who have cut off family members - it was easy for us to do so or that we don't care for our family. I think those two can be common misconceptions. I don't believe for a second that Kyle doesn't or never cared for Kim. Not for a second. But there's only so much a person can take, and everyone's limit is different. It also feels like there's such a tug-of-war going on with those who say that 1) Kyle needs to toughen up and stop engaging with Kim, but at the same time, 2) how can Kyle be so cold and cruel and unsupportive of Kim. Again, loved ones just cannot win when it comes to the addicts in their lives. They are always going to be judged on what they did or didn't do, while some addicts, like Kim, are always getting the sympathy, because hey, they can't help being addicts. The addict is the one who holds all of the cards in these situations and so, it's not accurate to say that the loved ones are the ones who have more control/autonomy in the relationship. Each person has to take responsibility for themselves and sometimes that means for the loved one, cutting the addict out of their lives. As much as some would like to think that families should always stick together, life doesn't pan out that way and it's often sink or swim and I don't know anyone who would encourage a person to willingly let themselves drown while trying to hold up another person -- a person who desires to drown right along with them, no less. That kind of self-sacrifice is tantamount to suicide, imo. It's a tough place to be in when you've cut family out of your life. People talk about their familes and it can be hard to join in because of all the drama. People will ask you about it but many won't understand or they will openly guilt or judge you. Now my family issues aren't about addiction but I really try not to think about the fact that I haven't seen nor spoken to my brother in about 10 years, that I haven't seen my ex-SIL in about that same amount of time, and most painfully, I haven't seen one of my nephews in that long either. He has no idea who I am and I certainly wouldn't be able to pick him out of a crowd. No more family dinners and holidays like we used to have -- not in 10 years. Families are destroyed because of dysfunction like yours and mine and the Richards sisters', so it's hard for me to judge what Kyle chooses to do because there aren't any easy answers to this. Some have scoffed at the idea of Kyle relenting because of the kids, but I see why she wouldn't want to rock the boat for their sakes all of these years. Now that they are mostly grown, I hope she will readjust her boundaries but I get why, because if I felt like there was any way to be in my nephew's life all this time and still keep some of my sanity intact, I would have been.

Yes, it pisses me too too, how she expects, no demands, accolades for being 100% sober when she's not and she's even not working on it. It's hard, hard work, getting off your ass and going to counseling and groups. I've never been to AA/NA meetings myself but I've been to SA and ED group therapy and everyone there was making some kind of effort to take control of themselves and their lives and it was excruciating at times to be there and to open up and be honest. Kim really makes a mockery out of substance abuse recovery and it's disgusting. If she's not sober and doesn't want to be, fine, no one can do anything about that. But to pretend and be so smug about it, all the while indulging, is just beyond the pale, imo.

Space cake, baby. I loved it when Kim informed everyone that her wagon has a seat belt, so that's why a 100% pain pill is not a relapse because you can't actually fall off a wagon when you're buckled in to it, you know.

Wow, she really had us going there. LOL

Congrats on your 20 years and for being a sober resource for those in need -- must be both difficult and rewarding. Your post is the reason why I am convinced that had Lisa R and Eileen not been so vocal about Kim's obvious inebriated state and something had happened to her - and accident or even worse - people would be blaming all of them for Kim's injuries or death. People would crucify Kyle for hiding Kim's so-called secret and for "doing nothing" while Kim killed herself. I'm convinced of that. This is why there's no winning when it comes to addiction. Everyone loses. For many, there's no way to either be a constant source of support or a source of tough love without getting burned in the process. I can't fault Kyle for wanting Kim's addictions to be both kept a secret out of protecting Kim and wanting everyone to know about them out of self-preservation. It really sucks when, not just with addicts, but with abusers, too, it comes down to having to choose them or yourself because you can't save both of you.

What I find amusing, if this is true, is this is just another manipulation tactic by a pro. All season, Kim saw nothing wrong with having a drunken lush as her BFF and confidant. Even though no one thought that was a good idea, including her children. Even though anyone who is honestly trying to recover from addiction would not want to be around someone like Brandi (anyone, in general, really). Yet, she was Kim's "BFF". Now, now Kim wants a "sober companion"? Now that she's been publicly busted and Brandi has probably already changed her phone number? First she was 100% not struggling in her sobriety and now that we all know it's not true, she's changed tactics and is going to maintain that a "sober companion" will be the fix, not rehab. It's all about projecting onto other people with her -- how they can be of use to her and how they are to blame when things go wrong.

Poor Kyle just wanted an instant graham cracker. Oh wow, I feel like I want to share this photocap with someone so they can laugh until they snort, too, but no one I know watches this show, so the hilarity would be lost on them.

OMG That photocap changed my life. Every single time I hear Brandi's frickin voice, all I'm going to hear is "Meep, meep, meep". LOL eta: I can like things again! I'm so happy and now I want a Love button. I like to love things.

I think most of us agree that both Kyle and Kim have their own issues to work on that each is responsible for themselves. Addiction brings a whole 'nother level into that though because addictions do not just affect the addict. It's a family disease as well as Narcissism. Being physically dependent on something isn't necessarily always worse or more painful or more serious than someone who is emotionally/mentally dependent. It's the psychological factor that makes someone so addicted, not just dependence. But people can be emotionally drawn to dysfunction the same way someone can be drawn to drugs and suffer just as much from it. There's no point in trying to figure out who is suffering more, here. They both have issues. But there's no denying that addiction and Narcissism are very destructive. And since Kim is the addict and the Narcissist, she needs to be accountable for her own shit. Kyle, as the codependent, needs to be as well, for her issues and she seems to be taking steps (Al-Anon) in doing so. We have yet to see Kim even acknowledge her issues, not even the fact that she has any. It's the Narcissism that is the most toxic aspect here, IMO, because that is harder to treat than addiction and there's no medication, no program to help. Getting a Narcissist into therapy is very difficult and getting them to be honest and not scam the therapist is even harder. This is who Kim Richards is -- her fixed personality. I think Kyle is more able to change and is open to it and her issues are not as severe, but that doesn't mean Kim is the victim. Not when she victimizes people. She becomes the abuser the minute she does that. It's so tricky, this disorder, because from the outside, the Narc is the victim because they are always being "persecuted", "wronged", and "misunderstood". They can be so subtle in their manipulations that not even the person they are manipulating knows what's happening. That's why there's such a feeling of vindication from Kim getting busted. People are not happy so much that Kim was caught as they are relived. It really is a relief to be validated in the fact that you're not the crazy one when you're in a relationship with a Narcissist. Such a relief, I can't even describe the feeling properly.

Sincerely Yours, I don't get how Kyle releasing her demons and being callous is somehow wrong, but Kim is perfectly excused for how she releases hers and how she treats Kyle. Is it just because Kim has a drug problem? Because it's visible to the eye and it's a tangible issue? I don't get how this is somehow Kyle's fault that Kim is an addict, which was never a secret. It's not a secret when everyone knows about it. It's just dysfunction that no one has verbalized. I also don't get how Kim is Kyle's "addict" as in "her addict". Kim is Kyle's sister. Kim is an addict. Kyle has nothing to do with that nor is she responsible in any way, shape, or form for Kim's life. Kim is no more Kyle's than Kyle is Kim's responsibility. There can never be a basic sister relationship when one of them is an addict, or even just a plain ole Narcissist. Never. I don't know if there's even such a thing as a basic sister relationship. Neither my sister or I are addicts or Narcissists and we do not have a good relationship. Kim is not horrible because she's an addict. She's horrible because she treats others horribly. She takes no responsibility for her actions and blames others. She's mean-hearted and does not treat her children well because she chooses booze and pills over them. That's why. Not because she's an addict, in general.

All of you guys who have dealt with such trauma and yet have still managed to become (or rather remain) compassionate, strong, and diligent gives me hope for Kim's kids. I agree with you, haydensterling, about so many children of narcs and toxic parents becoming very empathetic people, as adults and even as kids. I was always mocked in my family for being so over-emotional and sensitive. My mom, once, when I was about 13 or so, laughed in my face, when we were fighting and I finally told her that I'd felt many times like killing myself. She laughed at me and told me that I was a drama queen and watched too much television. So many times she protected her own ego rather than her own children, even when she refused to believe that I'd been abused, and I think that's made me become even more perceptive of other people's pain, which I see as a positive thing, even though it gets me into trouble sometimes. I'd rather be sensitive to others and get too emotionally involved sometimes than become emotionally dead and hateful. So, that's what those experiences have taught me and I hope that Kim's kids take from their mother, who they don't want to become and grow from that.

Congrats to 27 years, Neurochick! That's awesome and is testament to the effort you put into your own wellbeing. Glad you made it to the other side. Agree completely. So many people are still making excuses for her. She doesn't even have to put effort in doing that, ffs! There's no reason for her to take responsibility for herself because she gets everything she wants already, this way. The fear of the unknown is so strong sometimes that even bad is better than nothing. However, rewarding her for her actions, is what all of this coddling does. I hate to think that some people's bottom has to be losing everything but you're right, in that that's what it takes, for some. And I don't even think that it's 100% the worst thing in all circumstances, to lose or voluntarily purge it all, because even then, that doesn't mean one cannot rebuild again. .

Hugs, Reo. I'm so sorry for your struggles with your mother. You sound like the exact opposite of her; compassionate and thoughtful. Mothers can sometimes really make or break a child, I think. It's so unfortunate that parents who are unhealthy go on to instill dysfunction in their children. I try very hard to understand that my mom is the way she is, not because of me, but because of the life she lived. But it's really hard sometimes to not take it personally and not to allow myself to wallow in my feelings of sadness and anger from the things she did to me. It's the flip flopping, too, that I find is the hardest. Being able to acknowledge that my mom has her own problems doesn't make the hurt go away. You're welcome, SoCal4Us! This board has so many funny, witty people, and we need a little comic relief once in awhile. These topics are so heavy and serious and sad and so very personal for a lot of us, it kind of breaks up the tension a bit, I think.

Madness, I tell you! I even logged out, deleted my cookies, logged back in, and nothing. I deleted my cookies for you, PTV! No more cookies. : - ( eta: Cherish those Likes, What Fresh Hell, for you never know when they will be taken from you. Use them wisely!

Oh yes. It's laughable to me (Haha!) that Kyle was a bully and forced Kim to be on the show year after year. Kyle, who runs away when Kim raises her voice, forced that women to do what, now?! No.